Joan in GE Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 (edited) Looking through the WEM yesterday, I came across the book Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism (1904) by Max Weber (p 224 in WEM) and was fascinated.... For more than a year I've been much more aware of how I've elevated 'efficiency' above many more important qualities such as love, kindness, etc....NOT in my mind as in 'saying' that it is more important but in how I've handled situations, treated my children sometimes, or my dh - becoming impatient when things are not going efficiently, we're taking a longer path, etc. There's this latent 'perfectionism/efficiencyism'...At first I thought it was an American trait, but then looked around me in Switzerland and saw that 'efficiency' is even more highly prized here in some ways....there are exceptions such as in 'greetings'....But if you don't bag your food fast enough at the foodstore (no baggers here) you quickly sense impatience and many times they'll just start putting the next person's food through, even if it can get mixed into your own...(big deterrent for large quantity food shopping trips)...Of course it is great to have the trains really running on time, etc...but what do we lose with it? Here's a quote from the 3rd paragraph..... "This valuing of every moment of time helped to support Western "rationalization": a commitment to the most efficient methods of accomplishing every task in politics, economics, and daily life." I'm wondering if anyone else has been thinking about this lately and what observations you've made, conclusions you've come to, etc... Has anyone read the book? This is one of those 'life skills' that we can't live without - or can we to some degree? I'm starting to wonder about all the time management books I've read over the years that made the members of my family like little pawns to move around in the rush to get it all done....Should some system be part of Life Management/Health skills? Joan Edited November 13, 2012 by Joan in Geneva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 (edited) A few thoughts, in random, order: I do not consider efficiency an American trait. Coming from Germany, we often discussed how Americans are very innovative, but stop when a working solution is achieved, even if it is not the most elegant or efficient one. In contrast, Germany is much less innovative, but will tinker with the details until the best system is achieved. (We marvel at this every winter when there are power outages because it snows... they don't bury the power lines because it is "good enough" as it is. Another very sad example is Amtrak... just compare that with Swiss railways). I do value efficiency highly because I value my time; having things run efficiently frees up time for valued pursuits for which I enjoy taking time. People who do things inefficiently really irritate me: the person in front of me who does not bag her things quickly, the person who starts balancing her checkbook at the register instead of stepping away, the person who asks questions at meetings for which the answer was in a memo he got emailed.... the list is long. It drives me crazy, because they cost me my time that I would much rather spend on other things. I do not feel that being efficient makes me a pawn who is rushing to get things done - the more efficient I am, the more leisure I have, and the faster the tasks I need to accomplish get accomplished without rushing. To illustrate this with an example: I want to prepare an elaborate meal. If I am efficient, I plan beforehand, set out my ingredients in the right order, make sure I have the right tools and pots, know in which order to work so everything is ready at the same time. If I am not efficient, I have to scramble to find things, have to do an emergency run to the store (or several), have to wash things I did not realize I'd need, and end up in a mad frenzy rushing to get done. Being efficient means having calm and order: the efficient student is prepared a day before the exam and does not have to pull an all-nighter; the efficient person has all tax relevant documents gathered in a designated place throughout the year and files his taxes early, without a mad rush on April 14... the list is endless. It is not a god, it is a means to an end. Btw, I did not say that the education system is efficiency driven, but rather that it is driven by a utilitarian philosophy ("what is is good for, what practical benefit do I have from what I learn") - which is not at all the same thing. Edited November 9, 2012 by regentrude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I have to battle myself to re-focus all the time. For me, the answer is as simple and as difficult as looking toward the cruxifix. It is why I have selected my signature to be what it is. It is also why my current reflection is toward the Abolition of Man--w/o the tao, man devolves into trousered apes. (Kreeft has a wonderful free audio on his website about this.) It is also my opinion that it is where most of world around me lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TippyCanoe Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 nm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafiki Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted November 10, 2012 Author Share Posted November 10, 2012 (edited) I have a daughter who is physically slow and hesitant, who always will be.........Considering my dd has widened my view so that I now am no longer impatient and annoyed at the older person in front of me at the grocery store, It has been 'slowing down' to 'elderly person speed' which can help put me in such a different reality....seeing the effort it can take to just stand up (when they're in their 90's)...to eat a very small amount of food - just lifting the spoon to the mouth...and just walking down the street at a snail's pace....To walk with them, all the rushing has to stop...I think it can be the same with 'littles', I just don't have any to care for now where I could appreciate that slower pace as long as I'm not busy bundling them off to this or that event... For years I wasn't in close contact with people whose reality is on a different time plane......Now I put myself in the place of the ladies in the nursing home....That's going to be me one day, I think....I started warning my children already... I wish I would have slowed down for my children a bit more - but was too busy racing around trying to accomplish so much. Thankfully Home Ed gives lots of time to experience the parent-child relationship so I'm getting more possibilities, but realize that I'm a 'minute' person...and as you say '8FTH'...it is a struggle... Buying a handful of nuts and bolts took all morning. But -- it was full of social connections. She found the small dirt-floored building full of piles of nails, screws, nuts and bolts -- none sorted by size. She had tea with the owner and chatted .... Good story....I can imagine the scene. There's a difference between -- that is, people who are narcissistic or just clueless -- and people who are doing their level best but who simply function/process/react more slowly, or are people who thrive in chaotic conditions and visual/audio uproar, or people whose schedules are disrupted by emergencies or unexpected contingencies that affect my wait times, or people with different cultural traditions or personalities than my own, who will conduct business with more pleasure and yes, more efficiency, if first they chat and socialize. Interesting distinctions..... lessen my sense that what I want to get to is necessarily more important than ....... It is quite hard to get out of our own reality sometimes - don't you think? but it's much on my mind as I, an impatient person who used to want to get things done without entanglements or slowdowns, have watched what life is like for my daughter And you help us see life a little differently by explaining... Thank you... For me, the answer is as simple and as difficult as looking toward the cruxifix. It is why I have selected my signature to be what it is. It is also why my current reflection is toward the Abolition of Man--w/o the tao, man devolves into trousered apes. (Kreeft has a wonderful free audio on his website about this.) It is also my opinion that it is where most of world around me lives. When I read in the Gospels - I never get the sense that Jesus was in a hurry - you don't get a sense that He was yelling at the disciples to hurry and do this or that either.......yet He seemed to get everything done that He needed to...So then maybe it partly comes down to finding out what is really important to do while walking on this planet.... You've reminded me of an experience this past summer....I was helping a woman with 8 children :001_smile: (all younger than 12 yo) move ...and was SO impressed...she was organized but so calm and patient, but it wasn't overorganized - she couldn't tell you til that morning what was going to happen that day....There was just a peace about her way of being. I know my voice would have been on edge when things weren't going according to the plan (as things didn't always go according to the plan)... It was she who helped someone jump start their car - certainly she was busier than most of the people in the parking lot - yet no one would help the needy person.... I do not consider efficiency an American trait. Hmmm - is it more a concern of 'not wasting time' than true efficiency then? Germany is much less innovative, but will tinker with the details until the best system is achieved. True - this also takes a certain financial priority to be able to make it happen....with the train system..there is not that investment in the US - my impression is that the country is just too vast and people spread out to make it really financially worthwhile. Compare the density of the US with the density of Germany But that is just an aside.... I do get a sense of 'efficiency' being more important in Germany (and CH) than in the US now that we're discussing...... It drives me crazy, because they cost me my time that I would much rather spend on other things. In a way...but also you were born with a certain life situation/personality/personal capabilities that has made it all possible.... I want to prepare an elaborate meal. If I am efficient, I plan beforehand, set out my ingredients in the right order, make sure I have the right tools and pots, know in which order to work so everything is ready at the same time. This is a good strategy... I think I'm talking about not letting material achievements (of various sorts) rise above human emotional/spiritual needs... Being efficient means having calm and order: the efficient student is prepared a day before the exam and does not have to pull an all-nighter; the efficient person has all tax relevant documents gathered in a designated place throughout the year and files his taxes early, without a mad rush on April 14... the list is endless. It is not a god, it is a means to an end. What I meant about 'efficiency as a god' is when it becomes more important than people around us..... I agree that an efficient way of working and living can make more time for people around us. But when 'my' life at the material level takes priority over someone else's needs (not every single need of every single other human on the planet, but the people that are on my path realistically). I'm really not sure how to delimit this or have clear decision-making about it yet - I'm kind of stabbing in the dark and trying to get a clearer understanding... Btw, I did not say that the education system is efficiency driven, but rather that it is driven by a utilitarian philosophy ("what is is good for, what practical benefit do I have from what I learn") - which is not at all the same thing. Ooops - my bad memory! Sorry! I'll delete. A utilitarian philosophy discussion could fit into this thread though as such a philosophy can end up giving the same results in application to human relationships it would seem....if it leads people to tend to look through the lens of - is this person useful to me? how can this situation help 'me'? it all becomes very 'me' oriented at heart.... Perhaps the Declaration of Independence with its emphasis on the 'pursuit of happiness'...though there can be a deeper happiness in bonds with others...hmmmm.... Joan Edited November 10, 2012 by Joan in Geneva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopytwo Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 I have a daughter who is physically slow and hesitant, who always will be. I've seen her get run down on the playground by kids who couldn't bother to wait for her to take two steps out of their way or to adjust herself on the slide, and I now envision her in the future being the target of annoyance, sarcasm, or worse if she takes more time bagging her groceries or getting her money out of her wallet. I'm almost glad she doesn't want to drive, because I know how impatient drivers get who want their route to and from work, or on errands, to be efficient and not inconvenienced by people who take more time to process. Considering my dd has widened my view so that I now am no longer impatient and annoyed at the older person in front of me at the grocery store, who counts out every penny with slowness and who takes time to put everything back in a wallet afterwards. I know that one day my dd could be that person; not only that, but I very well could be that person when I'm older. How would I like others to behave if I got in the way of their efficient progress? Efficient and timely running of trains, offices, and such is certainly very very nice. But I have a friend who just returned from four years in Cambodia, who has also helped modify my opinions. She told me about an expedition to buy some nuts and bolts for her science class. Where she lived in a smaller town near the coast, there are no hardware stores, no general stores; nothing is streamlined or efficient. Buying a handful of nuts and bolts took all morning. But -- it was full of social connections. She found the small dirt-floored building full of piles of nails, screws, nuts and bolts -- none sorted by size. She had tea with the owner and chatted while they sifted and sorted through the piles until she had what she wanted. He introduced her to his family. At the end of the morning she had finally accomplished her task, but she had also added another social connection, another family in her network. She used this network all the time, in a way we no longer really do here in the U.S. I'm not romanticizing her experience; it had its own measure of frustration. But I do see the flip side of efficiency, which if we over-value it, can lead to a loss of compassion, patience, and social connection. There's a difference between people who show up at meetings not having read what they're supposed to have read (IEP meetings at schools are classic for this), or people who stand in the way of traffic flow to adjust their belongings instead of stepping aside, or who wander down the middle of the grocery store aisle oblivious of others who want to get past, on one hand -- that is, people who are narcissistic or just clueless -- and people who are doing their level best but who simply function/process/react more slowly, or are people who thrive in chaotic conditions and visual/audio uproar, or people whose schedules are disrupted by emergencies or unexpected contingencies that affect my wait times, or people with different cultural traditions or personalities than my own, who will conduct business with more pleasure and yes, more efficiency, if first they chat and socialize. Both sets of people can impede my pursuit of an efficient daily routine or the completion of errands or what have you. But I want to cultivate appreciation for the second category and through doing this lessen my sense that what I want to get to is necessarily more important than extending consideration and understanding of the kind I hope to receive when I'm old and slow, or old and alone. I'm sure this is a partial and very personal view of efficiency in daily life, but it's much on my mind as I, an impatient person who used to want to get things done without entanglements or slowdowns, have watched what life is like for my daughter when she has to deal with people who get irritated or annoyed by her slowness because they don't know and love her as much as I do. I've also watched as she is treated with kindness and patience and given the gift of time by an amazing number of really gracious, generous, and giving people. I know which sort of person I want to be. Doodler, thank you for posting this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanvan Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 I typed a nice long response to the original post and lost it all thanks to some button I hit on my laptop. I would say my morning hasn't been very efficient. :glare: Let's just say I struggle with efficiency vs doing what is important and I think many of the things people see as time wasters can be very important in the grand scheme of life. Many times I've met a new person or taken time to talk with someone and learned very important info I wouldn't have if I choose efficiency over conversation. Efficiency as a way of life can become paralyzing if you are a person who sees many options. It can also lead to perfectionist thinking. Did I get enough done? How much is enough? Was my time wasted? It can morph into a pressured way of living and pursuit of the 'perfect way' of organizing time and tasks so that they are efficient. But, what good is efficiency if it is elevated above the people it is supposed to be serving? And, if you focus on efficiency to the point of ignoring opportunities, then in some ways, you are shutting yourself off to life. I said it all so much better in my lost post. (Well, I think I did.) I just don't have the patience to retype more of my expounding on these thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted November 10, 2012 Author Share Posted November 10, 2012 Many times I've met a new person or taken time to talk with someone and learned very important info I wouldn't have if I choose efficiency over conversation. Efficiency as a way of life can become paralyzing if you are a person who sees many options. It can also lead to perfectionist thinking. Did I get enough done? How much is enough? Was my time wasted? It can morph into a pressured way of living and pursuit of the 'perfect way' of organizing time and tasks so that they are efficient. But, what good is efficiency if it is elevated above the people it is supposed to be serving? And, if you focus on efficiency to the point of ignoring opportunities, then in some ways, you are shutting yourself off to life. Sorry you lost your post! You probably know that you hit the "back" button? I've found things that way... I know what you mean about having conversations you might not have had... it seems to take being in a 'listening' mode and not rushing... I have all those organizing books - and we've had schedules that we pretty much kept in the later years....But is it easier now because the organization is just running in the background and semi-automatic? When dh retired, I was quite interested in him cooking, which he started to do. I was so tired of figuring out what we were going to eat every day....So he cooked for several years. What a wonderful break it was. I did watch him struggle with tasks that had become somewhat intuitive though....So now I've started up again - somehow the task seems so much easier....(it helps that two big eaters have moved out and a third is gone all day which reduced food consumption by about half)... So is it easier to put efficiency aside because my life doesn't depend on it any more? I wonder if there are people who can do that when they are young mothers... Interesting point about 'shutting one's self off'.... Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 This thread really appeals to me, because, for some reason, I find efficiency an interesting trait to think about. I do not consider efficiency an American trait. Neither do I. The most impressive example of efficiency I had was a KLM employee at the Amsterdam airport solving a very complex problem with my luggage in about 20 seconds. I find the Dutch admirably efficient. However, I am not sure I find them admirable in any other notable way. (I am not insulting them, just saying that their efficiency is the characteristic that consistently strikes me. They are sort of otherwise vaguely professionally pleasant but not particularly warm, for example.) I often wonder how this is cultivated. That being said, I am equally touched at other times by my interactions with other cultures who are utterly inefficient but very connected to other people. I think I will always treasure the stranger woman who scolded the way in which my husband was holding my sleeping daughter as we walked down the street. I found her utterly obnoxious, in a sort of charming way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 When I read in the Gospels - I never get the sense that Jesus was in a hurry - you don't get a sense that He was yelling at the disciples to hurry and do this or that either.......yet He seemed to get everything done that He needed to...So then maybe it partly comes down to finding out what is really important to do while walking on this planet.... See, to me, that's efficiency. I see two things here. One is a view as efficiency as the goal, efficiency as the impulse to plan every moment, to fill up the day planner, to move like a robot from one well-done task to another. But I also think Regentrude is speaking about something else, efficiency as a tool in service of a good life. A path you walk rather then a place you're always rushing to. I had a party for my youngest today and made pizzas. Had I been more efficient with my morning I would have had them finished just as the guest arrived. As it was it was an hour into the party when I served them and that was an hour I could have spent socializing with my extended family rather then making pizzas in the kitchen. Efficiency could have been a hindrance to socializing as well if I'd decided to clean up while they were here I suppose but I think that's a problem of personal priorities and not fitting relaxation and family into the equation. Efficiency isn't day planners and busyness and every moment accounted for. It's understanding a task and seeing the best and quickest way to accomplish it so that time belongs to you and NOT that day planner and so that you, and the others impacted by you, have choices with what to do with that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Joan, you have presented us with another thought provoking post! My initial thought is that sometimes things are lost in "efficiency": human conections made (as others have noted) or glimpses into new methodologies that may actually be better than what appears to be the efficient path. For the last few years I have given thought to living my life more deliberately, not necessarily more efficiently. This allows for more long walks, more quiet knitting, more thought in general as opposed to reaction. For me it is better to do fewer things well than to be flitting about doing a bit of this and that. Is that efficient, deliberate, or simply a recipe for personal sanity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanvan Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 See, to me, that's efficiency. I see two things here. One is a view as efficiency as the goal, efficiency as the impulse to plan every moment, to fill up the day planner, to move like a robot from one well-done task to another. But I also think Regentrude is speaking about something else, efficiency as a tool in service of a good life. A path you walk rather then a place you're always rushing to. Efficiency isn't day planners and busyness and every moment accounted for. It's understanding a task and seeing the best and quickest way to accomplish it so that time belongs to you and NOT that day planner and so that you, and the others impacted by you, have choices with what to do with that time. I agree that efficiency does not need to mean a full day planner, etc. I was thinking more about this yesterday. How efficiency effects your life really does depend on how you define it. But, if I am late with getting the pizzas made (as you mentioned), I'm not going to beat myself up and start finding all the 'errors' I'm making b/c I have displeased the god of efficiency, b/c I have elevated efficiency as a god, as mentioned in the original post. Instead, I'm going to cut myself some slack and realize, it just went that way today. Though, of course, I'll make an attempt to plan better next time. Otoh, I do go a little crazy inside at times when I see how some of our 4H decisions, meetings, projects, are handled. I know I could jump right in and have everything working and done so much faster, but I try to extend some grace b/c I know the leaders have many other volunteer positions. They are doing the best they can under the circumstances, and if I jump in and take over and try to make the club more efficient, it will lose some of the relaxed feeling. I still think over focusing on the best, the quickest, way can lead to pressure. We all have many tasks to do each day. With routine tasks we all discover better ways of getting them done through trial and error. But we have the trials and the errors to go through before we discover the efficiency. To me elevating efficiency to level of god status, means you are making efficiency the ultimate goal for your life. You are not using it as a tool, instead it has taken on the status of a higher power, a way to ultimate enlightenment. A god is something that is worshipped, sacrificed to/for, and offers some kind of ultimate salvation. If efficiency is the god, it becomes the most important focus in life. That means it becomes a measuring stick for everything you do, so it would permeate all areas of your life. You would need to be making efficient decisions, efficient use of time, do your tasks efficiently, read books efficiently, handle all your family and friends efficiently (not sure what that looks like). That's the kind of efficiency I thought was meant by the OP. And, elevating it to that sort of importance in our lives, really dooms us to failure b/c it tends toward perfectionistic thinking. You know, if you are taking hike through the woods, the most efficient way to get to the end point just may not be the most beautiful or enjoyable. But, if you are efficient in packing your backpack so that you have water, snacks, and rain gear, that can add to your enjoyment. However, the first time you pack, it may take you longer and you may not be that good at it, but you will become more efficient over time. Efficiency as a tool is good. Taken to extremes and made into a god, it can steal joy. Interesting side note: When we hike as a family we often see hikers who are very efficient. They are making excellent time getting to the top of the mountain. Certainly they are much faster than us and more efficient. But, they haven't stopped to notice a myriad of details, and they often are not having meaningful conversation. I'm sure they are going to have more hikes in their lives than we will, but they will miss out on the details and the conversations we treasure. Of course, if that's their goal and they are happy then good for them. It just isn't one I share. For the last few years I have given thought to living my life more deliberately, not necessarily more efficiently. This allows for more long walks, more quiet knitting, more thought in general as opposed to reaction. For me it is better to do fewer things well than to be flitting about doing a bit of this and that. Is that efficient, deliberate, or simply a recipe for personal sanity? This describes the shift in my focus too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Otoh, I do go a little crazy inside at times when I see how some of our 4H decisions, meetings, projects, are handled. I know I could jump right in and have everything working and done so much faster, but I try to extend some grace b/c I know the leaders have many other volunteer positions. They are doing the best they can under the circumstances, and if I jump in and take over and try to make the club more efficient, it will lose some of the relaxed feeling. This comment on 4H leads me to think of some of my past projects, some of which I have lead, others with which I have assisted. My goal for sewing projects is usually to teach a couple of objectives. I might have fabric selected and pre-cut so that students can jump into the sewing and focus on these objectives. But I recognize that students might learn much more if they did everything themselves. It is hard though when one has limited time not to try to streamline so that participants leave the event with a completed project. This really hit home when I was assisting with another volunteer's sewing session. For the sake of expediency, seam finishes were not being emphasized. This may have been efficient for that day but was not helping the students in the long run--which in my opinion made the whole ordeal terribly inefficient. This is the problem I have with an algorithmic approach to learning. It is efficient to learn XYZ, but, when faced with complexities down the road,, students have to relearn old material. How efficient is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted November 11, 2012 Author Share Posted November 11, 2012 (edited) I got interrupted while writing this to help my dd find a better place for the hedgehog that started hibernating under this cardboard box she had put out... That being said, I am equally touched at other times by my interactions with other cultures who are utterly inefficient but very connected to other people. Do you think this goes with climate (generally speaking)? It seems like the hotter it gets, the harder it is to be efficient, but the friendlier/more connected people are? Though I've had friendly people in the northern latitudes in the US....A woman loaned me her phone as she was walking by at the airport (I had no change for the pay phone and my mobile wouldn't work - I was holding out my dollar bill) and told me to give it back to someone else as she continued on with some students doing something there...Ok that's probably not the type of connectedness that you are talking about, nor like Doodler's Cambodia story, but it is an empathy towards strangers (a whole other tangent - ooops) I think I will always treasure the stranger woman who scolded the way in which my husband was holding my sleeping daughter as we walked down the street. I found her utterly obnoxious, in a sort of charming way. This reminded me of the old black man (I don't know what the current politically correct way of saying this is now?....seems like I've also heard - person of color? but am not sure...) who saw our young daughter lagging behind as we were walking around behind the Chicago Art Institute (where no one else walked) and called out "Put slow-poke up front!" We still laugh about that... But I also think Regentrude is speaking about something else, efficiency as a tool in service of a good life. A path you walk rather then a place you're always rushing to. After reading her post about life in Eastern Germany...which I'll just copy below in a separate post so that more people can see....I can see how the conditions were so extreme that it forced a lifestyle unlike anything the rest of us have ever experienced...(presuming no one else reading is from an ex-communist country).... I had a party for my youngest today and made pizzas. Had I been more efficient with my morning I would have had them finished just as the guest arrived. As it was it was an hour into the party when I served them and that was an hour I could have spent socializing with my extended family rather then making pizzas in the kitchen. Efficiency could have been a hindrance to socializing as well if I'd decided to clean up while they were here I suppose but I think that's a problem of personal priorities and not fitting relaxation and family into the equation. I'm slowly realizing this in a subconscious way - but now you are making it very clear....It's making time for the conversations in life instead of focusing on the 'to do' list.... Putting people above chores in a way... Carrying this a bit farther....In the past, cleaning up was a chore that was not social....But just from your post, I'm seeing how it would be good to make it a social time - two or more people working together...Seems like someone told me something like that ages ago, but I hadn't valued it enough.... glimpses into new methodologies that may actually be better than what appears to be the efficient path. Can you give example(s) - I'm curious...? (ETA - maybe the examples you gave in your next post?) For the last few years I have given thought to living my life more deliberately, not necessarily more efficiently. This allows for more long walks, more quiet knitting, more thought in general as opposed to reaction. For me it is better to do fewer things well than to be flitting about doing a bit of this and that. Is that efficient, deliberate, or simply a recipe for personal sanity? I'm not quite sure why, but your post makes me think of 'listening'. Maybe it is the flitting or not flitting about....meaning more reflection, not the quick analysis...hmmm... They are doing the best they can under the circumstances, and if I jump in and take over and try to make the club more efficient, it will lose some of the relaxed feeling. This takes a whole other level of maturity I think....this is a good example.... I still think over focusing on the best, the quickest, way can lead to pressure. We all have many tasks to do each day. With routine tasks we all discover better ways of getting them done through trial and error. But we have the trials and the errors to go through before we discover the efficiency. To me elevating efficiency to level of god status, means you are making efficiency the ultimate goal for your life. You are not using it as a tool, instead it has taken on the status of a higher power, a way to ultimate enlightenment. A god is something that is worshipped, sacrificed to/for, and offers some kind of ultimate salvation. If efficiency is the god, it becomes the most important focus in life. That means it becomes a measuring stick for everything you do, so it would permeate all areas of your life. You would need to be making efficient decisions, efficient use of time, do your tasks efficiently, read books efficiently, handle all your family and friends efficiently (not sure what that looks like). That's the kind of efficiency I thought was meant by the OP. And, elevating it to that sort of importance in our lives, really dooms us to failure b/c it tends toward perfectionistic thinking. You know, if you are taking hike through the woods, the most efficient way to get to the end point just may not be the most beautiful or enjoyable. But, if you are efficient in packing your backpack so that you have water, snacks, and rain gear, that can add to your enjoyment. However, the first time you pack, it may take you longer and you may not be that good at it, but you will become more efficient over time. Efficiency as a tool is good. Taken to extremes and made into a god, it can steal joy. Interesting side note: When we hike as a family we often see hikers who are very efficient. They are making excellent time getting to the top of the mountain. Certainly they are much faster than us and more efficient. But, they haven't stopped to notice a myriad of details, and they often are not having meaningful conversation. I'm sure they are going to have more hikes in their lives than we will, but they will miss out on the details and the conversations we treasure. Of course, if that's their goal and they are happy then good for them. It just isn't one I share. Yes, those are the type of things I was thinking of.... One way I realized it was driving through the city with dh....Since I've done much more driving here than him (he used to travel a lot and I did all the taxiing, shopping, etc) I know better routes - or now I would say I have the routes that I think are better and faster...but as you say, there are all these trial and error experiences that I got to have to find them. And you know what?(maybe this is what Jane meant) He sometimes comes up with a better way than me...I used to be always directing his every turn. Then I realized that even if it took longer, the tenseness in our interactions from me trying to 'direct' him took away his enjoyment of the trip...So now I say, "you choose the way - let's see how it goes." And then I just relax and enjoy the trip instead of trying to get home 3 minutes sooner. This comment on 4H leads me to think of some of my past projects, some of which I have lead, others with which I have assisted. My goal for sewing projects is usually to teach a couple of objectives. I might have fabric selected and pre-cut so that students can jump into the sewing and focus on these objectives. But I recognize that students might learn much more if they did everything themselves. It is hard though when one has limited time not to try to streamline so that participants leave the event with a completed project. This really hit home when I was assisting with another volunteer's sewing session. For the sake of expediency, seam finishes were not being emphasized. This may have been efficient for that day but was not helping the students in the long run--which in my opinion made the whole ordeal terribly inefficient. This is the problem I have with an algorithmic approach to learning. It is efficient to learn XYZ, but, when faced with complexities down the road, students have to relearn old material. How efficient is that? Yes - this same type of expediency has meant that we (as in dd and I) still are not good at cleaning up after ourselves - learning things took precedence over everything else (though in reality, it would be more efficient if we just had the habit of cleaning up after each subject, so it was misplaced focus in some ways)... And you are right that algorithmic learning is quicker but then the student hasn't really grappled with 'not knowing' and making those brain connections.. cont' in next post Thanks for discussing everyone! This is taking shape in my brain.... Joan Edited November 11, 2012 by Joan in Geneva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted November 11, 2012 Author Share Posted November 11, 2012 (edited) cont' from above I was 21 years old when the Wall fell. The political system caused an extremely inefficient economy: you'd go shopping twice every day to see what they might have in the store, line up at 7am on Thursdays at the butcher shop to get a good cut of meat for the weekend, stand for two hours in line at the produce store to get a pound of strawberries. Everything took waiting, begging, organizing. You ordered a car and waited for 13 years for it to be delivered (no, I am not kidding). Also, technology was far behind the US: we had coal stoves, you'd carry buckets of coal up and buckets of ash down several flights of stairs to heat your rooms and make hot water for baths. I remember my mom boiling cloth diapers in a pot on the stove. OTOH, my family were efficient. They had to, because organizing the daily life took such a huge amount of time and effort (and, btw, almost all women under 60 worked). My parents got things done. During the war, my Grandma had to evacuate her family and flee across Germany multiple times alone with three children. She ran our household, was 72 when I was born and pretty much rasied me the first years while my mother was working in another city and only was home every few weeks (she only stopped working for a few years when my mentally disabled brother was born). My other grandmother was widowed in the war, raised my father alone and ran a business and later started working from home. She worked until she was 85 years old. So, in our family, you got things done. I was no exception. I went to school, graduated, submitted my PhD thesis at age 25. My sister became pregnant in highschool and went to college and medical school as single mother of a child with cerebral palsy. Coming to the US was no adjustment at all in this respect (it was in a lot of other areas), so I can not blame my attitude on the changes. If anything, I can attribute it to family culture. I brought this from the other thread as it is too tricky have two conversations going at once.... This is a really eye-opening post. I see your 'efficiency' in such a different light. It also makes me wonder about the social times that people would have in such situations....If so much time was spent 'in line', then you have all the regular chores of life - when would you have time to relax with people? That you got to see your own mom so infrequently - well at least you had your grandmother instead of strangers. Still - difficult! I'm very curious about the 'line' experience....were you usually waiting with strangers or would friends decide to wait together so you could talk? Otherwise it seems like this would have made people so isolated and lonely... Edited November 11, 2012 by Joan in Geneva add link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 (edited) It also makes me wonder about the social times that people would have in such situations....If so much time was spent 'in line', then you have all the regular chores of life - when would you have time to relax with people? In the evenings. We did have plenty of time; as a child, I never felt burdened by unusual amounts of chores. As an adult, I now see how much effort it must have cost my family to run our household as effectively as they did. All shops closed at 6pm on weekdays, at 1pm on Saturday, and were closed completely on Sundays. Having a non-working grandma was a tremendous advantage ;-) I'm very curious about the 'line' experience....were you usually waiting with strangers or would friends decide to wait together so you could talk? Otherwise it seems like this would have made people so isolated and lonely...Grocery lines- those would be strangers. You'd see a line that had formed at the produce store and would get in line, not even knowing for what. You'd ask the person in front of you, and eventually the front people would telegraph to the back that there were bananas, or oranges, or strawberries that were the object of the wait. (Those were usually rationed, like two pounds of bananas per family, or one grapefruit - diabetics were allowed two). My grandma spent a large portion of her day shopping like this; she treated it like a job and enjoyed having a meaningful task to contribute. (In the winter, when our steep street was too icy and we had to forbid her to leave the house, she was very unhappy). People did not feel isolated and lonely. There was a certain feeling of camaraderie. People had friends and normal relationships; since almost everybody worked, they forged plenty of connections there. My parents both had many close friendships with colleagues, we had friends. It was just that completing the tasks of daily life was more complicated and required more elaborate planning, since you could not simply go to the store and buy what you wanted when you needed it - you had to anticipate needs, stock up, stockpile, trade. Everybody hoarded; if you were planning a home improvement project, you'd begin collecting materials and tools weeks and months in advance. Of course, it also meant that some things simply did not get done if you did not have Western money to hire a contractor to do them for you. Edited November 11, 2012 by regentrude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Do you think this goes with climate (generally speaking)? It seems like the hotter it gets, the harder it is to be efficient, but the friendlier/more connected people are? I am not sure I feel comfortable generalizing, but I am not sure about that. Somehow it suggests, when taken to an extreme, that cold weather makes people work harder or that people in hot climates spend a lot of time snoozing. I know when I have been to hot climates, I often feel overwhelmed by weather-related limitations because, after doing morning shopping, there is maybe an hour of free time before it is simply too hot to be outside unless one is rather tough, then lunch, then it's too hot for anyone who isn't very tough, then there are a few hours in the late afternoon, then there are dinner issues. Sometimes it may simply be the questions of a lifestyle of varying stages of industrialization. Many of those living in a northern climate, live in places like Scandinavia or Canada, in places with running water and indoor heating. And a frig, so daily shopping may not be required. Many of those living in tropical climates must deal with locating water, locating cooking fuel, locating food, and so on, every single day, which is time consuming. Those conveniences change our behavior. But I think cultures are changing fast. My grandma, who is also not into modern technology, has always had time to sit and talk, and listen. Many younger people (including baby boomers) have no such time. Sherry Turkle of MIT has talked about this (as have other people), e.g. in her book Alone Together, and On Being. I have been downright insulted by people's inability to have a conversation these days. I do feel, as Turkle says, like I am competing with the whole internet and I am just not going to be so fascinating, and it is a bad feeling. I have also read studies about how people with mental illness or some mental illnesses fare better in developing countries. One reason is that they are able to, on functional or partially functional days, make real contributions to the running of their households. I think the same can be said for children. No one needs to invent fake activities for self-esteem building. Sweeping is not that complicated and, guess what, it helps. There were other reasons, including how people understand mental illness, that also apparently make it easier in certain cultures. But the whole thing is rather interesting, and it makes me wonder if what is better for those with mental illness isn't better for all of us, it's just that some people are able to compensate. But I am fairly sure we are doing a lot of damage to each other and ourselves, in some aspects of our lives. The lack of connection creates many problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) I now see how much effort it must have cost my family to run our household as effectively as they did...... You'd see a line that had formed at the produce store and would get in line, not even knowing for what..... It was just that completing the tasks of daily life was more complicated and required more elaborate planning, since you could not simply go to the store and buy what you wanted when you needed it - you had to anticipate needs, stock up, stockpile, trade... Everybody hoarded; Yes - I'm really impressed. I hadn't read details of how life really worked at that time... Having a non-working grandma was a tremendous advantage ;-) Wait - you mean a not paid by a third-party grandma - sounds like she was working hard...:) Of course, it also meant that some things simply did not get done if you did not have Western money to hire a contractor to do them for you. Somehow it suggests, when taken to an extreme, that cold weather makes people work harder or that people in hot climates spend a lot of time snoozing. First - you're right - it's impossible to really make such a generalization...After posting I remembered our time in Malaysia (a long time ago) and I can't say that I was really struck by any special connectedness there. But there were social problems among the different cultural groups and other things going on....Then too, sometimes as a foreigner (experience from other countries), you might get treated differently than a local - esp with the caste system in India for example.... Well I didn't actually mean 'not work as hard'....the grinding poverty in some developing countries....means that people can be working quite hard just to exist many times....but their efficiency is hindered by their lack of tools and resources, knowledge, etc.... I think we could have interesting conversations comparing experiences and perspectives. But I think cultures are changing fast. My grandma, who is also not into modern technology, has always had time to sit and talk, and listen. Many younger people (including baby boomers) have no such time. Sherry Turkle of MIT has talked about this (as have other people), e.g. in her book Alone Together, and On Being. Just searched her and her thoughts look interesting... I have been downright insulted by people's inability to have a conversation these days. I do feel, as Turkle says, like I am competing with the whole internet and I am just not going to be so fascinating, and it is a bad feeling. But I think you are taking it too personally....considering the broad sweep of history... I have also read studies about how people with mental illness or some mental illnesses fare better in developing countries. One reason is that they are able to, on functional or partially functional days, make real contributions to the running of their households. I think the same can be said for children. No one needs to invent fake activities for self-esteem building. Sweeping is not that complicated and, guess what, it helps. There were other reasons, including how people understand mental illness, that also apparently make it easier in certain cultures. But the whole thing is rather interesting, and it makes me wonder if what is better for those with mental illness isn't better for all of us, it's just that some people are able to compensate. But I am fairly sure we are doing a lot of damage to each other and ourselves, in some aspects of our lives. The lack of connection creates many problems. We are at a certain point in time where all these factors are interacting...Without Germany's efficiency (& therefore productivity), Europe would have gone under already.....should it? should it be overrun again by Visigoths (ie whatever modern equivalent there would be)? What about the US? Just watched a bit of the PBS production about the Panama Canal....It seems like it was really the construction of the canal that brought the US to 'world power' status....so then that is only a century of that position...With the budget the way it is and China rising the way it is...(just realized this is really going off course from the 'efficiency' concept so I'll stop and just 'submit'...maybe it can turn into a new thread in the future...)... Let's see - back to efficiency vs ....I'm going to have to regather my thoughts but need to get to French with dd... Joan Edited November 14, 2012 by Joan in Geneva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Well I didn't actually mean 'not work as hard'....the grinding poverty in some developing countries....means that people can be working quite hard just to exist many times....but their efficiency is hindered by their lack of tools and resources, knowledge, etc.... But in other ways, I think people living in low technology societies have to be much more efficient. For example, how does one decide how much food to procure or cook for the family when there is no refrigeration and therefore very short storage time before spoilage? There is a small window between not enough and too much that I honestly think most people with a frig just don't worry about at all. This is an important sort of "efficiency," I suppose. I was also thinking perhaps there is an "efficiency" to taking personal connections seriously in a society with limited infrastructure and/or police. For example, if you have carefully maintained your good relations with others, people may be more willing to help you if, say, a thief comes in your house or your child is sick and you need others. I think that has been utterly replaced by our willingness in industrialized societies to be treated like a number. The idea that you want special treatment is irritating, except in some companies that make a particular effort to cater to their customers and/or higher end establishments. For example, American airlines in general do not make any accommodation for members of a family to sit together on a domestic flight -- some of which last for 5 hours! This means that many children who cannot really take care of themselves (I mean like 6 year olds, not 17 year olds) are stuck next to adults they do not know. For an entire flight! And this is supposed to be fine with everyone, because it is more efficient for the airline to consider each passenger as an autonomous individual! The idea that humanity is a herd of cattle that we should shove through the various duties of life is a rather unfortunate "advance," I think. But I think you are taking it too personally....considering the broad sweep of history...Sure, but when they're my own close relatives who are ignoring me to send an email, of course I take it personally! ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) I am finding this a fascinating conversation, but feel a bit timid in jumping in, as you all have such amazing experiences to contribute and some very clear, solid lines of reasoning. My own thoughts are very "mushy" still, but I'll be brave and throw them out there, and maybe someone will be able to help me sort through them... ;) I think part of my "mushiness" in trying to figure this out is me not having a solid definition for the concept of efficiency. This quote from Wikipedia (emphasis added by me) is helping me think through a bit: "Efficiency in general describes the extent to which time, effort or cost is well used for the intended task or purpose. It is often used with the specific purpose of relaying the capability of a specific application of effort to produce a specific outcome effectively with a minimum amount or quantity of waste, expense, or unnecessary effort. "Efficiency" has widely varying meanings in different disciplines. The term "efficient" is very much confused and misused with the term "effective". In general, efficiency is a measurable concept, quantitatively determined by the ratio of output to input. "Effectiveness", is a relatively vague, non-quantitative concept, mainly concerned with achieving objectives. In several of these cases, efficiency can be expressed as a result as percentage of what ideally could be expected, hence with 100% as ideal case. This does not always apply, not even in all cases where efficiency can be assigned a numerical value, e.g. not for specific impulse. A simple way of distinguishing between Efficiency and Effectiveness is the saying, "Efficiency is doing things right, while Effectiveness is doing the right things." This is based on the premise that selection of objectives of a process are just as important as the quality of that process." The two things keep coming to my mind. One is the idea of "focus", for lack of a better word. As a Christian, for me, efficiency loses its value if the efficiency becomes all about me and my goals and my plans for the day. Efficiency is a good thing, and can help me accomplish much... But as ShanVan posted, if it becomes a "god" or "idol" or itself the goal, then I may totally miss what God may be wanting to bring into my day. That leads into the second idea that is rolling around, which is: how do I view those things that come in and "disrupt" my planned efficiency -- especially people and their unexpected needs? Do I see them as obstacles (to my plans), or as opportunities (as Jesus saw people and their needs)? I like Regentrude's definition: I do value efficiency highly because I value my time; having things run efficiently frees up time for valued pursuits for which I enjoy taking time... the more efficient I am, the more leisure I have, and the faster the tasks I need to accomplish get accomplished without rushing... If I am not efficient, I have to scramble to find things, have to do an emergency run to the store (or several), have to wash things I did not realize I'd need, and end up in a mad frenzy rushing to get done. Being efficient means having calm and order But this is the part I struggle with (because it is MY reaction, too): People who do things inefficiently really irritate me: the person in front of me who does not bag her things quickly, the person who starts balancing her checkbook at the register instead of stepping away, the person who asks questions at meetings for which the answer was in a memo he got emailed.... the list is long. It drives me crazy, because they cost me my time that I would much rather spend on other things. That's where the signature quote from 8FillTheHeart, and Doodler's lovely thoughts on her daughter, Joan's mentioning of Jesus' attitude in the Gospels, ShanVan's thoughts on missing the experience of the forest and fellowship by hiking fast and efficiently all come into play for me... I'm not omniscient. How do I know God is not using such events (the inefficient person bagging their groceries slowly due to inefficiency) to protect me from getting out in traffic sooner, and helping me avoid ending up as part of the traffic accident I hear happening on the street in front of the store? How do I know that by waiting in line for the inefficient person ahead of me, was what allowed the elderly lady to have time to get in line behind me, and strike up a conversation that led to me being able to give her a ride home so she didn't have to wait 45 minutes for the Van Tran? (true story) I need to get a bigger picture, outside of myself and my immediate plans and goals to take these things in stride and realize that my efficiency allows me to have that unhurried time just SO that I can be available to be used as the Lord leads... to be able to be *effective* (see quote above). For me, that means I need to stop thinking of efficiency as a method for jamming more into a day. I think i need to be *organized* when I set out to do a task (as Regentrude said) -- but leave time for being able to be effective (available to "do right things")... Help? Am I totally missing the mark of this conversation on efficiency? (I have not read the book with which Joan opened this thread. :)) Greatly appreciating everyone's thoughts and experiences here! Warmest regards, Lori D. Edited November 12, 2012 by Lori D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) I'm not omniscient. How do I know God is not using such events (the inefficient person bagging their groceries slowly due to inefficiency) to protect me from getting out in traffic sooner, and helping me avoid ending up as part of the traffic accident I hear happening on the street in front of the store? How do I know that by waiting in line for the inefficient person ahead of me, was what allowed the elderly lady to have time to get in line behind me, and strike up a conversation that led to me being able to give her a ride home so she didn't have to wait 45 minutes for the Van Tran? (true story) We approach this clearly differently because I do not share the same religious conviction. Even when I was still Christian (before living in rural MO and being surrounded by unbearable proselytizers turned me off religion), I did not view things like this and did not see God as a manager of my daily affairs, because that immediately raised the question why he lets bad things happen if he could interfere like this. Deep philosophical problem which we probably won't be able to answer here. I get everybody's point about compassion, and I do strive for patience. It is easier for me if I perceive the need of the other person: the old lady who counts her coins, the teen with Down syndrome, the mother with little ones in tow. (I know about these first hand, having grown up with a mentally disabled brother and a niece with cerebral palsy.) I honestly admit that I may feel impatient towards people whose need I fail to perceive, and I am sorry for any offense I have caused there. OTOH, I feel that I encounter more people of Doodler's first category, who act out of thoughtlessness, not inability, and for those I can muster little sympathy. A simple way of distinguishing between Efficiency and Effectiveness is the saying, "Efficiency is doing things right, while Effectiveness is doing the right things." This is based on the premise that selection of objectives of a process are just as important as the quality of that process." So let's be both effective and efficient and do the right things right. Which is actually rather related to my approach: if I consider a thing worth doing at all, it is worth doing as well as I possibly can. Edited November 12, 2012 by regentrude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I think part of my "mushiness" in trying to figure this out is me not having a solid definition for the concept of efficiency. This quote from Wikipedia (emphasis added by me) is helping me think through a bit: "Efficiency in general describes the extent to which time, effort or cost is well used for the intended task or purpose. It is often used with the specific purpose of relaying the capability of a specific application of effort to produce a specific outcome effectively with a minimum amount or quantity of waste, expense, or unnecessary effort. "Efficiency" has widely varying meanings in different disciplines. The term "efficient" is very much confused and misused with the term "effective". In general, efficiency is a measurable concept, quantitatively determined by the ratio of output to input. "Effectiveness", is a relatively vague, non-quantitative concept, mainly concerned with achieving objectives. In several of these cases, efficiency can be expressed as a result as percentage of what ideally could be expected, hence with 100% as ideal case. This does not always apply, not even in all cases where efficiency can be assigned a numerical value, e.g. not for specific impulse. A simple way of distinguishing between Efficiency and Effectiveness is the saying, "Efficiency is doing things right, while Effectiveness is doing the right things." This is based on the premise that selection of objectives of a process are just as important as the quality of that process." Help? Am I totally missing the mark of this conversation on efficiency? (I have not read the book with which Joan opened this thread. :)) Greatly appreciating everyone's thoughts and experiences here! Warmest regards, Lori D. Hi Lori, I haven't read the bk either. ;) I only have a sec, so hopefully I can convey my thoughts coherently. :tongue_smilie: I see "efficiency" as being defined as the most direct path to a desired outcome. In some things, yes, efficiency is highly desired. (take for instance restoring electricity to those impacted by Sandy.) On other levels, however, efficiency comes at the expense of interpersonal relationships and larger "big picture" objectives. For example, homeschooling in a very large family is very inefficient. Babies and toddlers interrupt, household issues need to be addressed, etc. While 1-on-1 focused education could be argued to be more efficient than a classroom setting, reality is far more "blurry" (at least in our household!!) Effective and deliberate are better terms for our homeschool than efficient. B/c in order to be efficient, I couldn't let my little people be "authentic" little people and would be constantly irritated at the unscheduled diaper change requirements interrupting our schedule. My personal philosophy toward education is far from "efficient." It is not a direct path toward specific outcome based objectives. Classical education's view toward forming the mind "less efficient" than focusing education restrictively toward job skills. Brave New World could be considered highly efficient. Babies manufactured, people pre-determined for function, education is "targeted" (can't think quickly of an appropriate term for the education :tongue_smilie:), etc. The approach could actually even be described as "effective" as well....... But.....at what expense. Man is no longer valued as man. The Tao is destroyed and man is nothing more than a trousered ape or reduced to a living machine....... So, what I took from the part that Joan posted is how efficiency impacts our humanity. We can all do things efficiently w/higher positive outcomes. But does the efficiency come at the cost of recognizing the needs of individuals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TippyCanoe Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 nm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Oftentimes what looks like thoughtlessness is actually some kind of imperceptible neurological difference, or sometimes a disorder. It's because they're invisible that awareness is crucial, and that's why I write about my daughter so much. And I always appreciate you sharing your insights and talking about her; I have learned a lot from your posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) You have all made so many interesting posts! And Lori - I'm glad you jumped in and gave definitions because that does help clarify things.... In the interest of efficiency :-) and space I'm not going to quote - because I think I could quote most everything people have said for one reason or another....and laugh about your email comment stripe. About the book - I haven't read it either. I just read the Susan's blurb in the WEM p 225-6.... I am certainly no expert on this subject and don't really have a highly trained mind as you can all see, it wanders around....but all this discussion is bringing out different aspects of the subject which are helping to dig deeper... Going back to the Brave New World is a good starting place....because it has to do with production - and that has been the driving force of the developed world and people tend to be measured on how much they produce. (An aside is the scary situation in Sweden where they want the children in the creches because the state thinks it is a better mother/parent than the parents. This is all related to the production mentality. Parents are supposed to produce children for the state. They then become part of the production machine to pay more taxes to have more services, etc. It is really happening...) I'm thinking that there are really two aspects here - efficiency and time use...By the second I mean that I might drag around a half a dozen books on a trip overseas, just in case I get time to read them - not wanting to 'waste any minute' ....but that doesn't mean that I have been really efficient in my reading and lugging books around gets fairly inefficient by reducing speed if you have to do a lot of walking...So many times I've been inefficient to not waste time - what a contradiction!, LOL. So I partly want to talk about the 'not waste a minute' mentality as well (which has driven my behaviour for I don't know how many years now). Then there are all these human interactions - that can get lost if we're just 'on a mission' to get everything done as quickly as possible....there it is the 'getting done' which has become more important than the interaction....But of course there are trade-offs - and how do you measure the needs of someone you don't know against the crying child who needs to get home, get fed, and get to bed? On the other hand, :-) one of the wonderful things I see happening in large families is actually that children have to wait....When you just have two, there is one for each parent - completely manageable and life can be very tidy. Put a third one in there and there is always unbalance....add a few more and calm, everything is in order all the time happens less frequently....But in the process, those children learn that others come before them from an early age. Oooops - maybe this is another tangent or is it somehow related?....Children have to watch while mom/dad or some other sibling is changing the diaper, feeding a brother or sister, breastfeeding, etc......It is all at such a human level though....They are not waiting due to material increase (ie to have more appliances and toys) but due to human needs.....Ah ha....maybe this is related and what 8FTH was at least partly getting at?....as the child 'waits' - which is inefficient of their time in a production mentality - they are learning deeper lessons...They learn skills by watching, they learn patience, and various other character traits which an 'efficient' time can never teach them. I'm just thinking aloud here - it seems that a person who is always used to getting their needs met, questions answered right away, their minds filled, etc will not know how to observe & 'listen' (what I took from Jane's post before) at the deeper level. They'd be too used to a diet made by someone else (worksheets, books, lectures, etc, etc) and then when they grow up they'll feel validated primarily by what they have produced...? I do think it is a spiritual exercise.... some of you are talking about that (and you are right regentrude - the reasons for your lack of religious convictions would be a whole other conversation - my own perceptions are changing in a deeper way I think - related to the dynamic earth and the seriousness of humans' self-centeredness at the heart of individual and group evil actions, thoughts, and attitudes - could I sum it up with "primarily I think we blame God for the things we, as in humans, do, and we live on a dynamic planet with organic bodies meaning that the planet can do things to us and genetics can go astray"?)....I think if we're open to having our 'schedule' 'changed', some unique opportunities to interact with others for a purpose, can happen....This family with 8 children have been right behind the scene of an accident several times in the last year (I don't know all their history before that)....Here they have all the needs of their children to attend to, yet because they are open to helping, situations happen right in front of them. They didn't have to go out and seek ways of helping - the situations were plopped in front of them... Sometimes it seems like all kinds of organized 'helping' activities end up meaning we're not available for situations put right in front of us...Then they are not 'measurable' in the economy and therefore tend not to be validated by others......I can't say that I volunteered in x activity, or I'm paid to do y job (I'm not saying people shouldn't volunteer in organized activities or do paid jobs - only that it is possible to put too many organized activities on the plate).....These 'ad hoc' encounters can't get put on a resume....I looked this child in the eyes as we talked about the mouse in his hands....How does one measure that? and then sell oneself to get a job? Joan Edited November 13, 2012 by Joan in Geneva add comments and link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 Now that I have some more time, I reread and picked out certain points to try to discuss.. For example, how does one decide how much food to procure or cook for the family when there is no refrigeration and therefore very short storage time before spoilage? Here's where the definitions can come in handy I think....it seems that this is more a case of careful use of resources and not wasting rather than efficiency per se... But it's also true that depending on the resources or lack of them - people take up ways which to them are the most efficient....which would seem inefficient to someone else... I was also thinking perhaps there is an "efficiency" to taking personal connections seriously in a society with limited infrastructure and/or police. For example, if you have carefully maintained your good relations with others, people may be more willing to help you if, say, a thief comes in your house or your child is sick and you need others. I think that has been utterly replaced by our willingness in industrialized societies to be treated like a number. Hmmm - to me this borders on utilitarianism....if the relationships are nurtured for that purpose - though not if they just end up being that way...It's true that it might end up being more efficient than waiting for the policeman... We have in a sense collaborated with companies about becoming numbers....I think of a cheap airline here where you do most everything for yourself...There's no seating, etc. which reduced prices so more people took this airline...Now lots of airlines have you print your own boarding card and do as much for yourself as you can - eg bring your own food...We ourselves replaced the travel agents and airline personnel in order to reduce prices (theoretically at least)... For example, American airlines in general do not make any accommodation for members of a family to sit together on a domestic flight -- some of which last for 5 hours! I think it is dangerous to have young people sit next to strangers on a flight - knowing what happened to me even as a 20 yo. If you pay more, can you be put together? Sure, but when they're my own close relatives who are ignoring me to send an email, of course I take it personally! ;) I have to admit that I have done that to my own children! It does send a bad message, doesn't it... My own thoughts are very "mushy" still, but I'll be brave and throw them out there, and maybe someone will be able to help me sort through them... ;) That's how I feel and what I am hoping.... if the efficiency becomes all about me and my goals and my plans for the day. Exactly. This is why I'm wondering about the Life Management types of books and wondering how to teach dd....Every day my pride wakes up before I do almost, ready to do what I want to do.... Do I see them as obstacles (to my plans), or as opportunities (as Jesus saw people and their needs)? 'obstacles' I can agree about - but there is something curious about 'opportunities'....can't quite put my finger on it...maybe it just has a materialistic feeling for me personally.... For me, that means I need to stop thinking of efficiency as a method for jamming more into a day. I think i need to be *organized* when I set out to do a task (as Regentrude said) -- but leave time for being able to be effective (available to "do right things")... I agree about not having jam-packed days - scheduling right to the last minute...Though I don't know how people with large families manage; it seems like Mom would flop into bed exhausted....8FTH - could I ask what you think at the end of the day about the things that didn't get done that you'd intended to do? Or how do you prioritize? B/c in order to be efficient, I couldn't let my little people be "authentic" little people and would be constantly irritated at the unscheduled diaper change requirements interrupting our schedule. My personal philosophy toward education is far from "efficient." It is not a direct path toward specific outcome based objectives. Classical education's view toward forming the mind "less efficient" than focusing education restrictively toward job skills. But does the efficiency come at the cost of recognizing the needs of individuals? The bolded part I esp liked and the underlined part I wasn't quite sure what you meant... Oftentimes what looks like thoughtlessness is actually some kind of imperceptible neurological difference, or sometimes a disorder. Or the person could be consumed by personal problems or grief and not able to focus properly on normal tasks..... Or even if their own self-centeredness is at such a height that they can't see others needs - that is a kind of weakness that is hindering their happiness and growth (said realizing that I have lots of blindspots - one I've been realizing lately is the way that I ride my bike - ouch, cutting off a pedestrian recently in a race to get somewhere...My own dd told me last week that she doesn't like to bike with me because I'm too dangerous....That made a red flag go up....I guess I'd been starting to feel like a granny messenger type - racing with the cars....) because that immediately raised the question why he lets bad things happen if he could interfere like this. regentrude - I woke up in the middle of the night thinking about your thoughts....and did edit my previous post a bit earlier....but now I have a question for you. Would you have God stop all bad things from happening or just some of them? And if some, how would you determine which ones? If you don't want to discuss on the thread - I'm happy to discuss in PM's... Joan Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I can't remember where there was a recent article/discussion...just remembered it! Lemme see if I can find it. Google's New Glasses and the War on Serendipity. Thank Eleanor. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I have to battle myself to re-focus all the time. For me, the answer is as simple and as difficult as looking toward the cruxifix. It is why I have selected my signature to be what it is. It is also why my current reflection is toward the Abolition of Man--w/o the tao, man devolves into trousered apes. (Kreeft has a wonderful free audio on his website about this.) It is also my opinion that it is where most of world around me lives. It always seems to come back to that book... I'm sure this is a partial and very personal view of efficiency in daily life, but it's much on my mind as I, an impatient person who used to want to get things done without entanglements or slowdowns, have watched what life is like for my daughter when she has to deal with people who get irritated or annoyed by her slowness because they don't know and love her as much as I do. I've also watched as she is treated with kindness and patience and given the gift of time by an amazing number of really gracious, generous, and giving people. I know which sort of person I want to be. I think there's a reason why some are blessed with the gift of time. And I think there's a reason that we learn this lesson so late in life. It takes a certain humility (one that I do not have, I work fast) to slow down. I think, perhaps, that we don't have until we're older. Also, I think that the universe is constantly trying to get us to slow down, but we, thinking we know better, try to make it more efficient. I mean, life is not efficient. The earth is not efficient--in the way of being fast. It meanders, yet it's how many billions of years old? There's something to be said for being present in the moment, and allowing ourselves the gift of serendipity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) regentrude - I woke up in the middle of the night thinking about your thoughts....and did edit my previous post a bit earlier....but now I have a question for you. Would you have God stop all bad things from happening or just some of them? And if some, how would you determine which ones? Joan, I am sorry something I wrote disturbed your sleep!!! I can not answer this question because I simply do not believe that there is a God who can stop things from happening or make things happen. So, to me this is a moot point. If there were such a God, it would certainly be a very difficult question to ponder: people grow through negative experiences and difficulties, so making everything fair tale perfect would diminish human capacity... so I guess one would need a certain amount of bad stuff. Now, we have to define what "bad things" are, and that will differ for everybody. There is certainly such a thing as too much; I refuse to believe that God let the Holocaust happen for a specific purpose of his. I believe in free will, and being a pawn to the plans of a God who makes things happen according to a hidden agenda does not agree with my world view. Btw, the German Lutheran Church I was raised in did not teach the viewpoint of a God who is micromanaging daily happenings. I had numerous discussions with my minister about this, and the best he could explain it was that it was like a parent who gave his child freedom even knowing that they might make mistakes. The explanation did not satisfy me, but just want to mention this because the idea of a God who keeps track of people's daily steps and is ready to interfere by sending a slow person into the checkout line in front of them is not something universally believed by all Christian groups. I have never come across this viewpoint in the churches of which I was a member back hom. Edited November 13, 2012 by regentrude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Even when I was still Christian (before living in rural MO and being surrounded by unbearable proselytizers turned me off religion)... Oh, dear! SO sorry to hear of your dreadful experience! I just wanted to assure you I had no such intention -- I only was mentioning my own faith as a way of explaining my "starting point". My relationship with the Lord is always a part of the equation for me when I wrestle with these kinds of questions, and I just wanted to include that as my "preface" for understanding the angle I was coming from -- in NO way was it meant as proselytizing! We approach this clearly differently because I do not share the same religious conviction... I did not view things like this and did not see God as a manager of my daily affairs, because that immediately raised the question why he lets bad things happen if he could interfere like this. Deep philosophical problem which we probably won't be able to answer here... Ah-ha! I see now that said this in a way that was not really what I meant at all, as that is not my belief either -- that God is a puppet-master, or the manager of all our daily affairs. What I was trying to get at was the idea of me trying to move more towards the direction of willingness to see beyond my own self-focused plans, or my limited, finite view of the world and events. To see that there is much more -- more connections, more purposes, more possibilities etc. -- to what happens than just what I planned for -- and I expressed it again in terms of my belief of God's interconnectedness in our lives... (I imagine that just muddied my meaning more... :tongue_smilie:) Deep philosophical problem which we probably won't be able to answer here... I agree... so I will stop trying to explain more and save this for another conversation. ;) And, concerned because I was not very clear in the way I stated those previous thoughts, I just wanted to reassure you, that in my original post when I said I struggled, and then quoted part of your original post about people who do things inefficiently -- I meant my struggle was with *myself* and trying to figure out what should be *my* reaction when I encounter these circumstances. In NO did I mean I had a problem with you or your thought there! :) Warmest regards, Lori D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) Quote:Originally Posted by Lori D. : "Do I see them as obstacles (to my plans), or as opportunities (as Jesus saw people and their needs)? ..." Originally Posted by Joan in Geneva: "...'obstacles' I can agree about - but there is something curious about 'opportunities'....can't quite put my finger on it...maybe it just has a materialistic feeling for me personally...." I think, in an effort to make a clever, alliterative quip, I lost the clarity of my meaning here. ;) By "opportunity", I just meant that I don't think Jesus saw people and their unexpected needs as a burden the way I do. I use that word "opportunity" in my own mind to help me rethink what I see as a negative (i.e., unexpected need = burden), into a positive (i.e., unexpected need = opportunity). As in, opportunity (gift) to bless -- and be blessed. As in, opportunity (choice) to lay down my schedule and rush and plans and participate in something much greater. Hope that was clearer! Warmest regards, Lori D. Edited November 13, 2012 by Lori D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Brave New World could be considered highly efficient... But.....at what expense. Man is no longer valued as man. The Tao is destroyed and man is nothing more than a trousered ape or reduced to a living machine....... So, what I took from the part that Joan posted is how efficiency impacts our humanity. We can all do things efficiently w/higher positive outcomes. But does the efficiency come at the cost of recognizing the needs of individuals. Yes! This is exactly what I was latching onto as well -- and for me, specifically seeing so often my failure to recognize the needs of individuals -- though, for me, more from "busy-ness" in having filled up my schedule with so much, that I have not built in time for calmness and the ability to be available -- a bit like how Regentrude was describing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Oh, dear! SO sorry to hear of your dreadful experience! I just wanted to assure you I had no such intention -- I only was mentioning my own faith as a way of explaining my "starting point". My relationship with the Lord is always a part of the equation for me when I wrestle with these kinds of questions, and I just wanted to include that as my "preface" for understanding the angle I was coming from -- in NO way was it meant as proselytizing! Lori, I did NOT AT ALL feel you were proselytizing, and I am sorry if what I said made you feel bad. Some discussions simply must include a person's religious point of view, because that explains where they are coming from- I have absolutely no problem with that. Sorry if I was unclear in my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I did NOT AT ALL feel you were proselytizing, and I am sorry if what I said made you feel bad. Oh good! No offense given -- and none taken here! ;) Warmest regards, Lori Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 You do have the opportunity to reserve your seats together if you book in advance. Thanks for saying this - it was a major problem I was not prepared to deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 .... I agree about not having jam-packed days - scheduling right to the last minute...Though I don't know how people with large families manage; it seems like Mom would flop into bed exhausted....8FTH - could I ask what you think at the end of the day about the things that didn't get done that you'd intended to do? Or how do you prioritize? The bolded part I esp liked and the underlined part I wasn't quite sure what you meant... Joan :lol: Way back when before we were outnumbered, dh wouldn't go to bed until every single thing was put away, the house vacuumed, etc. We are still a very "orderly" family, but our standards have definitely been lowered! A cannot imagine homeschooling and running a large household like ours if I weren't able to be organized while simultaneously going with the flow. ;) I have an "inflexible" completely flexible routine. (how is that for an answer. :tongue_smilie:) As far as my classical ed/job training comment.....for example, this yr my future physics major is spending more time on our philosophy of science and religion course and our literature course (which is also heavy on philosophy and religion via fiction by Lewis, Dante, Milton) than he is on math and science. (It wasn't planned that way, though. His university courses are just not taking him that much time. :tongue_smilie: ) Either way, in a completely "efficient" setting, I can't even imagine a philosophy of science and religion course even existing. Greater emphasis would be on courses strictly pertaining to developing his skills for his future career vs. forming him as a man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanvan Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I am finding this a fascinating conversation, but feel a bit timid in jumping in, as you all have such amazing experiences to contribute and some very clear, solid lines of reasoning. My own thoughts are very "mushy" still, but I'll be brave and throw them out there, and maybe someone will be able to help me sort through them... ;) I think part of my "mushiness" in trying to figure this out is me not having a solid definition for the concept of efficiency. My thoughts on this are mushy too. Yes, I think a lot depends on how you define efficiency. I have a hard time wrapping my mind around a definition. I know being efficient is a good goal at times, and I can feel myself getting impatient when I see that some event is not being organized well. I definitely feel better when I know I've had an efficient day, hit the lessons I wanted to teach, finished the chores on my list and done them well. The two things keep coming to my mind. One is the idea of "focus", for lack of a better word. As a Christian, for me, efficiency loses its value if the efficiency becomes all about me and my goals and my plans for the day. Efficiency is a good thing, and can help me accomplish much... But as ShanVan posted, if it becomes a "god" or "idol" or itself the goal, then I may totally miss what God may be wanting to bring into my day. That leads into the second idea that is rolling around, which is: how do I view those things that come in and "disrupt" my planned efficiency -- especially people and their unexpected needs? Do I see them as obstacles (to my plans), or as opportunities (as Jesus saw people and their needs)? I'm not omniscient. How do I know God is not using such events (the inefficient person bagging their groceries slowly due to inefficiency) to protect me from getting out in traffic sooner, and helping me avoid ending up as part of the traffic accident I hear happening on the street in front of the store? How do I know that by waiting in line for the inefficient person ahead of me, was what allowed the elderly lady to have time to get in line behind me, and strike up a conversation that led to me being able to give her a ride home so she didn't have to wait 45 minutes for the Van Tran? (true story) I need to get a bigger picture, outside of myself and my immediate plans and goals to take these things in stride and realize that my efficiency allows me to have that unhurried time just SO that I can be available to be used as the Lord leads... to be able to be *effective* (see quote above). For me, that means I need to stop thinking of efficiency as a method for jamming more into a day. I think i need to be *organized* when I set out to do a task (as Regentrude said) -- but leave time for being able to be effective (available to "do right things")... Lori, What you have posted echoes my feelings exactly. I left my view of God possibly having different plans for me out of my posts b/c I was not sure if other posters would share that conviction or relate to it. I was also having trouble figuring out how on earth to put my thoughts into words. So, my post referred to 'missed opportunities', but the ideas you have posted reflect my thoughts as well. Our family has had some amazing experiences b/c we were open to opportunities that may not have lead to the most efficient day. In light of hte bigger picture, I am not sure yet where those opportunities will lead, but they may end up being the most efficient means of developing Dc's futures---though at the time I really just wanted to get back home and back to the books, or the house cleaning/projects. I've been away from the boards for a few days, but I wanted to thank you for posting and expressing what I was thinking ---and doing it more clearly than I! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted November 14, 2012 Author Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) Google's New Glasses and the War on Serendipity. That's an interesting piece; it reminds me of a recent conversation about how Google provides in a search links that have been related to links we clicked on in previous searches....Meaning that we would get narrower and narrower perspectives on life from the search results - how absolutely awful and ripe for misuse! I think there's a reason why some are blessed with the gift of time. Hmmmm...could you explain? I understood the part after it about being older.... (Kreeft has a wonderful free audio on his website about this.) justamouse's post reminded me to look for that....and on Kreeft's audio page I don't see the Abolition of Man talk. Was it labeled as such or something else? A cannot imagine homeschooling and running a large household like ours if I weren't able to be organized while simultaneously going with the flow. ;) I have an "inflexible" completely flexible routine. (how is that for an answer. :tongue_smilie:).I have experienced this, though not on a daily conscious basis....but I think there's an important truth here... regentrude - I'm delving into this a bit because as you say: Some discussions simply must include a person's religious point of view, because that explains where they are coming from- And in fact - how we behave in all these situations about efficiency vs flow that we're discussing seem very related to how we perceive our self in the universe and on the planet...at the spiritual level... I believe in free will, and being a pawn to the plans of a God who makes things happen according to a hidden agenda does not agree with my world view. regentrude - I awoke again thinking about your thoughts - I'm not telling you for you to feel badly - just to say how my brain works - sometimes best without the conscious me and definitely in a more intuitive kind of way. Sometimes trying to think about something directly makes it seem to escape even more......and why I think I'm meandering around in this thread sometimes... While I won't try to discourse about God in relation to the Holocaust right now - I would like to discuss 'man'....At a certain level I feel responsible for it, in the same way that I feel responsible for the death of Christ as well as other attempted annihilations of people groups such as Tutsis and Hutus, etc, etc....I can hardly look down on people who do 'bad' things knowing that I could be one of them, except for the situation I was born into through no good of my own....How was I born in the US and not in Rwanda? The habit of hard work and self-application came from ____? a unique mixture of genes and experiences but nothing that I did before coming into existence that gave 'me' the right to them....I'm talking about the kernel of human existence inside me....not all the 'added me' To me the Holocaust and all other atrocities are yet another example of the complete depravity that humans, any of us, are capable of, given the right conditions....either in groups or as individuals... When I look at our brains - eg I got an awful look at the brain of an unusual bird because another bird was actually pecking at the brain of this bird that had just died - I'm floored by their temporariness....Our brains are so organic - just a mushy mass of grey stuff that with a single stroke of a sharp object or less can permanently change who we are - well, who we perceive ourselves to be and how we perceive and interact with the universe - at some level...yet we can feel so empowered in different situations - as if we were a permanent fixture. Then that feeling can come crashing down as we face some personal failure..... I use that word "opportunity" in my own mind to help me rethink what I see as a negative (i.e., unexpected need = burden), into a positive (i.e., unexpected need = opportunity). As in, opportunity (gift) to bless -- and be blessed. As in, opportunity (choice) to lay down my schedule and rush and plans and participate in something much greater. I think it was because before it was the 'person' who was the opportunity rather than a situation - but from this answer - I think you really meant the situation, as you have since said about the alliterative 'quip' . Though I don't know why obstacle = person doesn't bother me then...I think I agree about situations being opportunities - but am uncertain in some ways which I'll discuss below... I'm not omniscient. How do I know God is not using such events to protect me from getting out in traffic sooner, and helping me avoid ending up as part of the traffic accident I hear happening on the street in front of the store? It's only a couple of weeks ago that I would have thought the same thing, Lori, about possibly avoiding a potential accident by being held up in the queue. But last week I was listening to a recording from BJU where the speaker said that this was superstitious - a thought that I would never have thought of as a Christian perspective before. But the speaker is such a serious Christian that I'm wrestling with that and how 'flow' works because the less attached I am to my plans - while still having them at some level (as 8FTH said) - the better things seem to go with other human beings....There are times when I finally get to do something, like go talk to one of my elderly neighbors, which I had been intending to do for a long time, but for one reason or another it didn't happen....If instead of getting upset with a fixed idea of doing it at a certain time that isn't working and I instead trust that when it is meant to happen it will work out, then I don't have a latent stress when going to bed....But where does that 'meant to happen' fit in?....I do believe that God is working in our lives in some way (I am a Christian). Clearly for Ninevah, He sent Jonas to warn the people so they could repent. And you can find many other examples in the Bible.... Then in Acts 17 - Paul said: 24 The God who has made the world and all things which are in it, *He*, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands, 25 nor is served by men's hands as needing something, Himself giving to all life and breath and all things; 27 that they may seek God; if indeed they might feel after Him and find Him, although He is not far from each one of us: 28 for in Him we live and move and exist; as also some of the poets amongst you have said, For we are also His offspring. I'm definitely not a Pantheist and don't believe the bolded part is meant pantheistically but what does it mean at a deeper level? Over many years I've tended to rely on 'formulas' for answers - somewhat of an American way I think with all our "How to" books... Going with the flow and formulas don't really work together - though I think I started this thread looking for a formula for how to "go with the flow"! though I hadn't consciously labeled it....The idea in Traditional Logic (I'm sure it is in other logic books; TL just happens to be where I finally understood the concept) he talks about the Mental Act of 'Simple Apprehension' then finding the 'Term' then making a 'Judgment' ....as I get Terms I can deal with the Mental Apprehensions...Until then it is this mass of unlabeled apprehensions floating around in my brain.... I left my view of God possibly having different plans for me out of my posts b/c I was not sure if other posters would share that conviction or relate to it. I'm glad that you (and others) shared your thoughts - it encourages me to as well.... Joan Edited November 14, 2012 by Joan in Geneva correcting grammar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 At a certain level I feel responsible for it, in the same way that I feel responsible for the death of Christ as well as other attempted annihilations of people groups such as Tutsis and Hutus, etc, etc....I can hardly look down on people who do 'bad' things knowing that I could be one of them, except for the situation I was born into through no good of my own....How was I born in the US and not in Rwanda? The habit of hard work and self-application came from ____? a unique mixture of genes and experiences but nothing that I did before coming into existence that gave 'me' the right to them....I'm talking about the kernel of human existence inside me....not all the 'added me' To me the Holocaust and all other atrocities are yet another example of the complete depravity that humans, any of us, are capable of, given the right conditions....either in groups or as individuals... I find this a very bleak and depressing outlook on humanity. If the above were the case, and humans were not personally responsible for the things they do, but were sentenced by their biology and circumstance to act a certain way, there would be no point in striving to be a human being with moral standards, to live up to certain ethics, to try to be a "good" person. It would also not explain why, in every awful situation, there will be humans who choose to behave differently, who adhere to a stronger moral code and defy the awful environment in which they were born. If I can not believe that humans have the free will to change their destiny, there would be no point in trying to be better or in trying to make things better for others. And I see the free will, the choice of people how they want to act, as the main characteristic that distinguishes us from animals. Animals must act according to their biology; humans have reason and the gift to choose their actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted November 14, 2012 Author Share Posted November 14, 2012 If the above were the case, and humans were not personally responsible for the things they do, but were sentenced by their biology and circumstance to act a certain way, I'll have to think about it more but so far what I think is that it gives us a capacity to act a certain way, not that I'm forced to act a certain way. If I grew up in Papau New Guinea, I'd have the capacity to act as the Papau New Guineans do. there would be no point in striving to be a human being with moral standards, to live up to certain ethics, to try to be a "good" person. Hmmm...I definitely believe in trying to live up to certain ethics... It would also not explain why, in every awful situation, there will be humans who choose to behave differently, who adhere to a stronger moral code and defy the awful environment in which they were born. I actually believe that we get our truly good ideas of good things to do from God - but I'm still trying to figure all this out. If I can not believe that humans have the free will to change their destiny, there would be no point in trying to be better or in trying to make things better for others. And I see the free will, the choice of people how they want to act, as the main characteristic that distinguishes us from animals. Animals must act according to their biology; humans have reason and the gift to choose their actions. I do believe in free will too - to a certain extent... But I have to go to bed and tomorrow the site will be down...so, until next time... Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/13_lost-in-the-cosmos/peter-kreeft_lost-in-the-cosmos_.mp3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted November 18, 2012 Author Share Posted November 18, 2012 http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/13_lost-in-the-cosmos/peter-kreeft_lost-in-the-cosmos_.mp3 Thanks for the Kreeft link 8FTH....He has some funny and insightful comments..... I realize he is quoting Lewis about the Tao so it is with Lewis I should really argue, and that is about the use of that word....For people who first come across that word in his writings, meaning is derived from Lewis's use of the term. But for people coming with prior knowledge and use of the word, the word comes with it's own baggage and meaning already. So to change it's meaning at some level becomes very difficult. It reminds me of the use of the word Allah in the Sabah translation of the NT for the word God. Yet Allah in the Koran has some very different characteristics than God in the Bible. It was the only way they could think of to translate God, but in the long run it seems more harmful than good...I do not know if they have changed it in recent years - well, just googled it and see that last year an NT came out that did not use the word Allah for God.... About trousered apes....while I agree that with lots of TV and current relativism (and the numerous other aspects of modern existance/mindset that he mentions) man can lose his way....it is as if there is no God who is revealing Himself to man any more and it would only be through 'silent' moments that a thought from another human can be slipped into modern man's thinking that will help him think differently....At some intellectual level I would agree, but people also start to question current reality when faced with extremely difficult personal situations which they cannot solve....when they are broken through problems of their own making or those forced upon them by someone else or nature (hurricanes for example).... He makes the point about self-help books which I meant with 'how to' books....I hadn't known that the largest quantity is related in some way to psychology. I hadn't realized 'flow' was a Taoist concept...interesting...all in all an insightful talk - thank you. Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Thanks for the Kreeft link 8FTH....He has some funny and insightful comments..... I realize he is quoting Lewis about the Tao so it is with Lewis I should really argue, and that is about the use of that word....For people who first come across that word in his writings, meaning is derived from Lewis's use of the term. But for people coming with prior knowledge and use of the word, the word comes with it's own baggage and meaning already. So to change it's meaning at some level becomes very difficult. It reminds me of the use of the word Allah in the Sabah translation of the NT for the word God. Yet Allah in the Koran has some very different characteristics than God in the Bible. It was the only way they could think of to translate God, but in the long run it seems more harmful than good...I do not know if they have changed it in recent years - well, just googled it and see that last year an NT came out that did not use the word Allah for God.... About trousered apes....while I agree that with lots of TV and current relativism (and the numerous other aspects of modern existance/mindset that he mentions) man can lose his way....it is as if there is no God who is revealing Himself to man any more and it would only be through 'silent' moments that a thought from another human can be slipped into modern man's thinking that will help him think differently....At some intellectual level I would agree, but people also start to question current reality when faced with extremely difficult personal situations which they cannot solve....when they are broken through problems of their own making or those forced upon them by someone else or nature (hurricanes for example).... He makes the point about self-help books which I meant with 'how to' books....I hadn't known that the largest quantity is related in some way to psychology. I hadn't realized 'flow' was a Taoist concept...interesting...all in all an insightful talk - thank you. Joan Joan, I have a lot of thoughts on this b/c I have been listening to Kreeft and his analysis of Lewis for yrs. But.... our life went into overdrive the past few days. I didn't want you to think I was simply ignoring you, b/c I really enjoy your discussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 I have a lot of thoughts on this b/c I have been listening to Kreeft and his analysis of Lewis for yrs. But.....this conversation is too involved for me at this pt b/c dh is being transferred and our life went into overdrive the past few days. I didn't want you to think I was simply ignoring you, b/c I really enjoy your discussions. But, for the next couple of months, I am going to have to bail on any topics that require me actually to think and pay attention while posting vs. easy multi-tasking type posts! How kind of you to think of telling me! I just finished listening to his talk a second time on my walk today....It's one of those talks where you could hit 'pause' every few sentences, write down what he says and think about it for awhile before restarting - and that's a little hard to do while walking - so I'm sure I haven't gotten the full benefit of his observations and analyses. Some of his comments are better understood the second time through as well, knowing where he is going....Too bad you're occupied as indeed it would be good to discuss...but such is life... I hope you can keep a clear mind in all the preparations.... :001_smile: Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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