Today is one of those days when...

[razorbackmama]

I think that even though our local elementary school is one of the worst in the state, my kids would get a better education there.:glare:

 

Did you know that "Write sentences using words from Unit 1" is one of the most difficult set of instructions ever for a 4th grader? So much so that when it was on his assignment list he went ahead and just started the exercises in Unit 2. Then when I put a note on his assignment sheet saying not to do the exercises and circled the instruction about the sentences, he did another exercise. Then when I sat down and explained exactly what he was supposed to do..."see this word? 'cylinder' - You make up your own sentence...'The can was the shape of a cylinder'...you write that down. Do that for all the words." He wrote out a brief "definition" of sorts next to some of the words in the workbook. THEN when I asked where his sentences were because I couldn't find them, he showed me what he'd written in the book. THEN when I explained to him, AGAIN, what it was he was supposed to do, he began to cry.

 

:banghead:

 

All I can think is, surely some other teacher would be able to get phrase it in some way so that he can understand that he is to WRITE SENTENCES USING THE WORDS FROM UNIT 1 so that he won't end up in tears. Sigh.

[RootAnn]

:grouphug:

 

What's the point of what you were asking him to do? (Understand the meaning of each word? Write the word at least once?) Is there another way you can get him to achieve that goal without having to write the words in a sentence? (Make up a sentence & tell it to you -- outloud? Write the word & the meaning (like he did)? Just write each word twice on a clean sheet of paper?)

 

Did you ask him if he didn't understand it? There was obviously a reason he felt it was so difficult.

 

Again, :grouphug: Some days are frustrating and it isn't necessarily about a specific assignment. Make sure you have some time for you today - maybe a cup of tea and snuggle down for 15 minutes with a book if you can.

[scrapbabe]

At that age I would sit with him and let him dictate his sentences to me while I write them down. Writing can be one of the hardest things for a child to do at that age... especially boys. It may be that he has a good idea but the process of writing it down, making sure to spell correctly, and making sure to punctuate and capitalize takes up so much time and concentration that he isn't able to even remember what it is he wanted to write. I always try to make the writing process as easy as possible either through narration (no writing at all) or me writing it for him. He's still getting the same learning.. what's important is coming up with a sentence, not whether or not he can get it on paper. That'll come with time. He might just want you to there next to him for support too, without saying anything, just sitting by him to show that you're there for him.

I'm sure you're doing a great job! Hang in there and :grouphug: for a rotten day.

[razorbackmama]

:grouphug:

 

What's the point of what you were asking him to do? (Understand the meaning of each word? Write the word at least once?)

Both.

 

Is there another way you can get him to achieve that goal without having to write the words in a sentence? (Make up a sentence & tell it to you -- outloud? Write the word & the meaning (like he did)? Just write each word twice on a clean sheet of paper?)

I want to make sure he knows how to use the word properly. Writing the definition won't cut it because that's not what we do in the real world.;) He CAN just tell me the sentences, but he really needs work on the writing too.

 

Did you ask him if he didn't understand it? There was obviously a reason he felt it was so difficult.

I did once it was it was clear that he didn't. I asked him if he didn't understand, and I got his typical answer: "I don't know." Up until that point he had BEEN saying that he did understand it, so, silly me, I assumed he did.:tongue_smilie:

 

Make sure you have some time for you today - maybe a cup of tea and snuggle down for 15 minutes with a book if you can.

That is not allowed. (I could say so much more, but it is way off topic.) So nope, won't happen, unfortunately.

 

At that age I would sit with him and let him dictate his sentences to me while I write them down. Writing can be one of the hardest things for a child to do at that age... especially boys. It may be that he has a good idea but the process of writing it down, making sure to spell correctly, and making sure to punctuate and capitalize takes up so much time and concentration that he isn't able to even remember what it is he wanted to write.

We don't even bother with spelling, capitalization, or punctuation. That is way too advanced for this one. Just getting the words out of his mouth first is a struggle enough at times. What I'm frustrated about though is that rather than saying he needed help or not doing the assignment at all, he did everything else except what he was supposed to do and then acted shocked that he didn't do it right. And I'm frustrated that apparently I am such a lousy communicator that he can't even understand the phrase "Write sentences using these words." He had no clue what it was I was saying.

I always try to make the writing process as easy as possible either through narration (no writing at all) or me writing it for him. He's still getting the same learning.. what's important is coming up with a sentence, not whether or not he can get it on paper. That'll come with time.

Yes, and it is time. We have been doing just narration for YEARS. It's time to forge ahead. But really writing isn't the problem here...it's me.

[Jpoy85]

Its been one of those days here too- "What do you want to do next" turned into crying with " I want to do it with daddy" (fine you can do it with him but you wont be happy thats what you chose) and i swear if they wiggle the dining room table bench against the wall one more time!!!!! :banghead:

[scrapbabe]

Both.

 

I want to make sure he knows how to use the word properly. Writing the definition won't cut it because that's not what we do in the real world.;) He CAN just tell me the sentences, but he really needs work on the writing too.

 

I did once it was it was clear that he didn't. I asked him if he didn't understand, and I got his typical answer: "I don't know." Up until that point he had BEEN saying that he did understand it, so, silly me, I assumed he did.:tongue_smilie:

 

That is not allowed. (I could say so much more, but it is way off topic.) So nope, won't happen, unfortunately.

 

We don't even bother with spelling, capitalization, or punctuation. That is way too advanced for this one. Just getting the words out of his mouth first is a struggle enough at times. What I'm frustrated about though is that rather than saying he needed help or not doing the assignment at all, he did everything else except what he was supposed to do and then acted shocked that he didn't do it right. And I'm frustrated that apparently I am such a lousy communicator that he can't even understand the phrase "Write sentences using these words." He had no clue what it was I was saying.Yes, and it is time. We have been doing just narration for YEARS. It's time to forge ahead. But really writing isn't the problem here...it's me.

Well then, just :grouphug: for a bad day.

[MerryAtHope]

(((Hugs))) Sorry you had such a rough day!

 

We don't even bother with spelling, capitalization, or punctuation. That is way too advanced for this one. Just getting the words out of his mouth first is a struggle enough at times.

 

I can relate--and for this kind of child, not only will the writing be hard/impossible sometimes, but asking for help or clarification won't even occur to them (or if it does they don't actually get to the point of SAYING it).

 

What I'm frustrated about though is that rather than saying he needed help or not doing the assignment at all, he did everything else except what he was supposed to do and then acted shocked that he didn't do it right. And I'm frustrated that apparently I am such a lousy communicator that he can't even understand the phrase "Write sentences using these words."

 

Nah, it's not about you being a lousy communicator. He just didn't understand and you said it clearly enough that it never occurred to yourself that he wouldn't understand. Don't beat yourself up :grouphug:

 

We have been doing just narration for YEARS. It's time to forge ahead. But really writing isn't the problem here...it's me.

 

We did narration longer than that (although we went through those times of "forging ahead" too! After so much head-banging I'd go back to basic skills though!)

 

Has he mastered at least a 1000 words yet (that would be the end of AAS 3 if he's doing that)? If not, writing is going to be pretty difficult for a kid who has trouble speaking his thoughts fluently as well.

 

For a time, I had my children read all instructions out loud to me and then explain them to me. If they couldn't explain them, I explained & then asked them to explain it back to me, or we did the work together until they got it. Maybe something about this assignment was just too stressful/too much for him right now, even though he's doing well with the rest of the book?

 

I hope tomorrow is a better day! :grouphug:

[Mommy22alyns]

:grouphug: For some reason, Rebecca is always stumped when it comes to making up sentences too. :confused:

[razorbackmama]

Has he mastered at least a 1000 words yet (that would be the end of AAS 3 if he's doing that)? If not, writing is going to be pretty difficult for a kid who has trouble speaking his thoughts fluently as well.

You mean spelling 1000 words? Oh goodness no. He is at the end of Step 3 in AAS 2. Mostly because we can ONLY spend 15 minutes a day on it, and that includes daily review. I wish we had more time to spend on it...he could be so much further along.

 

For a time, I had my children read all instructions out loud to me and then explain them to me. If they couldn't explain them, I explained & then asked them to explain it back to me, or we did the work together until they got it.

I will try that if I can remember. Sigh. He slowly is becoming more independent...he actually CAN read way better than I thought he could, but he's so used to me assuming he can't read well and holding his hand that he has trouble reading instructions for himself. I think maybe I won't have him read all instructions to me (that would be taking a huge leap backwards), but maybe if I see that he has misunderstood when I grade things, I can do that.

 

Maybe something about this assignment was just too stressful/too much for him right now, even though he's doing well with the rest of the book?

Who knows. This is actually sort of like what he is working on in vision therapy - getting words OUT. (Interesting that in *vision therapy* we're working on verbalization and expressive language LOL.)

 

I hope tomorrow is a better day! :grouphug:

Oh it will be...they have Options so I won't be teaching them.:D

[campmom]

I've felt like that before!

My child is going through vision therapy right now also and I didn't realize how many learning and doing things are all affected by what is lacking in the vision department. Because of this there are some things that I am just not going to require of him until we are finished with therapy or I know that he is able. I am being his helper so that he can move forward with his learning but not requiring things that would cause stress or hold him back. This had made my job of teaching him much easier and I feel that we are making better progress- less struggle.

[MerryAtHope]

You mean spelling 1000 words? Oh goodness no. He is at the end of Step 3 in AAS 2. Mostly because we can ONLY spend 15 minutes a day on it, and that includes daily review. I wish we had more time to spend on it...he could be so much further along.

 

Actually, 15 minutes a day is not a bad amount, 20 would be the max you would do. Kids tend to retain more if they have it in small, daily chunks. But yes, I found that writing started to become more doable after the end of AAS 3 and mastering 1000 words. Before then it's just too difficult to think of words and then try to focus on spelling them, and then by the time you remember how to spell one (or get it wrong because you can't remember), you forget what you were going to say, etc...

 

I will try that if I can remember. Sigh. He slowly is becoming more independent...he actually CAN read way better than I thought he could, but he's so used to me assuming he can't read well and holding his hand that he has trouble reading instructions for himself. I think maybe I won't have him read all instructions to me (that would be taking a huge leap backwards), but maybe if I see that he has misunderstood when I grade things, I can do that.

 

I think that's a great idea (having him read if he didn't understand vs. reading all instructions to you). Or, if there's one subject where he tends to misunderstand, have him read for that subject. I also used to have my kids number the steps in instructions. They were famous for just doing the first part & missing other parts, if instructions had 2 or 3 steps. So I had them number each part!

 

Who knows. This is actually sort of like what he is working on in vision therapy - getting words OUT. (Interesting that in *vision therapy* we're working on verbalization and expressive language LOL.)

 

LOL, I was often surprised (happily) at what they worked on in VT! I kind of wish ours had worked more on expressive language.

 

So glad you get a lighter day tomorrow with Options! :grouphug:

[razorbackmama]

Before then it's just too difficult to think of words and then try to focus on spelling them, and then by the time you remember how to spell one (or get it wrong because you can't remember), you forget what you were going to say, etc...

LOL you're assuming that we pay attention to spelling.:lol: I guess that comes with all the language processing issues we have...I'm thrilled just to get something out of them. Spelling is for the proofreading stage.:lol:

 

I actually have a friend that will make her kids correct spelling on things like math papers, etc. Goodness, if I did that, my kids would have to correct every piece of work they did! If I can tell what they were talking about and it's not a writing assignment or spelling assignment, I don't even bother. If I stressed that I would have been in the looney bin LONG ago! LOLOLOL

[NASDAQ]

Oh man. The kids at the public school seem to write tons and tons and tons. My daughter acts like a few words (or PARTS OF WORDS) is the most severe torture. OH NO IT'S A SYLLABLE.

 

Does he type yet?

[razorbackmama]

No.

[Saddlemomma]

Honestly, I think it's just the age. My dd did great last year with writing and English. This year.....WHAT HAPPENED? She doesn't seem to focus as sharply as she did last year, she's wondering about puberty a lot (which was discussed in length last year during our human body unit), and she's starting to become more self-aware. She'll be 10 next month and I really think puberty is starting to creep in and wreck havoc with her hormones. My oldest daughter started her period between 11 & 12.

 

So, that being said, I'm trying to adjust things for her. For instance, I know her Grammar (Giggly Guide to Grammar-which she loves but is quite challenging) is a little overwhelming so I'm either going back to basics, or we will do the exercises together.

 

In other words, your ds may just need some more help and patience to get over the hump. Maybe you can tweak the exercises some, just do them orally, or illustrate them together on a dry-erase board.

[Critterfixer]

How about just do the first one together?

That's what I do with my third graders when we've got something that I'd like them to work on independently. If they get it after we do the first one together I can usually leave them for a few minutes to see how it goes. If they come running for help I know that I have to do some more explaining.

 

And then there is the whole little boys not connecting things if they have any level of confusion. This morning I got my guys up around 5:30 to check for meteors before I had to go to work and take them over to their grandma's for the day. I specifically said, "Boys, get your long pants on, your short shirts, your shoes and then go get your jackets on." TOO much information!

I went back to check when they didn't appear and found both of them, in shoes, and pajamas. Well, I didn't say to do it in any particular order?!:lol:

[razorbackmama]

How about just do the first one together?

That's what I thought we had done! Hence my frustration. LOL!

[MomatHWTK]

Because the physical act of handwriting is a stumbling block for my oldest, I usually split that activity out from all his other assignments. So for my son, I would perhaps make some copywork using the words from Unit 1, or have some completely separate copywork for him to do later in the day. Then, I would have him dictate sentences to me using the actual unit words to demonstrate that he understood them and could compose a sentence.

 

It might be necessary at the outset to split things further. Have your son verbally define the word, then use it in context, then compose a full sentence about the word.

 

My Ds still is still a hunt and peck typist but prefers that to handwriting.

 

Just read further- with language processing issues, I would definitely split it into small segments. For my guy with issues, I do things like, "Ok, so would we say the shape was a 'XXX' or a 'XXX'? Come up with fun ways to demonstrate using the words in context. I know it is frustrating. I have one with language issues and one with handwriting issues. Between the two of them, I don't know what I'm doing some days. LOL!

Edited October 19, 2012 by MomatHWTK

[Critterfixer]

That's what I thought we had done! Hence my frustration. LOL!

 

:tongue_smilie:Do you ever have the feeling that when a little boy does a disconnect over instructions that you can almost see the engine flying apart? They don't stall out, they pop all over the place. Hence my boys in pajamas and boots this morning. I should have known better than to try to wind the springs at 5:30 in the morning.

 

Sometimes I do the first one and think they have it, only to find that the nods and confidence displayed were something of the acceleration before the crash. It's sort of funny in the rear-view mirror, but I've been almost up in arms over it when I've had to sit a boy down with a page full of errors to correct. It's frustrating, no doubt, and mine don't really seem to have many issues with processing. But I've been finding that I can get away with encouraging more independence just as long as I check in more often than not--particularly if they didn't have any questions! That's a red flag--no questions. Before I had kids I thought that no questions meant I'd explained it well. Boy, was that a wrong assumption!

[2queens&1princenmyhouse]

I've found that if I give dictation sentences that are longish, my 4th grader will change the sentence to make it shorter (therefore easier to write). It still gets the point across of her using the word in a sentence properly, but she thinks she's getting away with doing it easier. :tongue_smilie:

[thefragile7393]

I think that even though our local elementary school is one of the worst in the state, my kids would get a better education there.:glare:

I have been feeling like this a lot lately.....

[MerryAtHope]

LOL you're assuming that we pay attention to spelling.:lol: I guess that comes with all the language processing issues we have...I'm thrilled just to get something out of them. Spelling is for the proofreading stage.:lol:

 

No, that's not what I mean. What I am referring to is automaticity. Without it, your child has to think of what to say and how to say it, and then they have to think how to write it--how to form the letters, how to represent that word in some way (spelling), grammar, punctuation, syntax, etc... When they lack automaticity in any of those areas, they can't just put something down on paper--they have to put energy into how to do that, even though what they choose for spelling probably won't be correct. How exactly DO you write a word that you don't know how to spell, and if you aren't even sure what letters you should write? Pick a foreign language (one that you aren't fluent in) that uses a different phonetic structure from English, imagine someone even dictating a bunch of words and you trying to write them, and you'll be closer to what he has to go through to put something on paper.

 

You and I might just put something down as a placeholder and look a word up later. But he is at such an early stage that he has to do this with almost every word, and phonograms for sounds are not at all automatic yet--what exactly should he write down for each word in order to just put something on paper? Kids facing this have to use up working memory to even think about choosing SOME of the letters. Maybe they'll get a few consonants and skip all the vowels, maybe they'll decorate with vowels--because they are not sure what to write for that word and how to write it, and it takes up their valuable working memory reserves to figure out even SOME way of representing a word. To us, it looks like "no effort" was put into it, when actually they are putting in MORE effort because it's not automatic yet.

 

When they can fluently, easily, automatically spell 1000 of the most common words, this eases the stress of the writing process quite a lot. There's still a long way to go after that, but "just getting something on paper" becomes less stressful when you aren't guessing and working to figure out every. single. word. you. write. Right now, putting all of these things together is painstaking for the child--he figures out what to write for a word, and meanwhile forgot what he was going to say, has to rethink the sentence, write another word or two, forgets, has to rethink... He probably leaves out words along the way, or chooses easier words or shorter sentences to try to compensate just to get through it.

 

And if there is any struggle with making letters (kids who start at different places each time they make a letter, for example, are struggling with automaticity in handwriting), that compounds the situation. If they don't understand sentence structure, that compounds it more. What IS a sentence? If they can picture a thought or have a vague feeling about it but don't know how to put it into words very easily--that's another automaticity struggle.

 

So...that's what I'm trying to get at. For a kid like this, you might do 1-2 sentences together, another where he comes up with what to say with little or no help from you, and 1 where he does the physical writing but you are there if he needs any help remembering what he wanted to write, with any mechanics and so on. Even that might be too much--you just have to gage with each student and think about what you want to get out of the exercise.

 

This is one reason why dictation (using words he has mastered) is so valuable. He has to hold the words in his mind after hearing it only once (ideally--work towards that goal if that's a struggle), and has to think how to write each word until this kind of process becomes more automatic. They are building up the skills that they need in order to be able to write something independently, they are building up working memory by gradually lengthening the dictations, and they are building up automaticity in spelling so that they aren't using working memory reserves for that, and so on.

 

He really is working HARD right now...and that's why he melted down. And YOU are really working hard right now because he is struggling, and it's just plain hard for both of you. It does get better (I've been there too!), but you may need to think through the building blocks of what it takes to do some of these LA exercises and do more together or shorten some, and even cut some, while you work to build up the skills he needs. :grouphug:

Edited October 19, 2012 by MerryAtHope