CC - Can I just vent about the peace sign please

[mommaduck]

Check this out.

 

My eyes glazed over somewhere about when it said that Spock's Vulcan salute is evil because it's really an upside down penis, but I now know that finding signs of Satanism is easy once you know how. Prince William, Helen Keller, Spider Man, Amy Grant, and most of the presidents of the world are Satanists - who knew?

 

Seriously how can people get so worked up about this stuff? Sure the peace symbol could be a broken cross. But we could equally (and just as illogically) say that the cross is a warped peace symbol, proving that Christianity is the enemy of peace.

Actually, I believe there are several things irt Spock and his father that are Judaic in origin, including the Vulcan salute.

[QuirkyKapers]

Never heard of this. Oh brother. Another thing to get flamed about in Christian circles. Just like dragons.

[mommaduck]

Came from Leonard Nimoy's Jewish background.

 

Laura

Posted before seeing this. It was a Jewish friend that had pointed out some of the connections to me.

[ChristyB in TN]

I am adding this to my list of knowledge acquired through TWTM forums, along with sister wives, domestic discipline, Jack Chick tracts, etc.

:banghead:

Still. Trying. To. Bleach. Brain.

I learn so many things here but honestly, brain bleach would be nice sometimes. :D

[mykdsmomy]

Satanists and penises, they're everywhere!!! Beware!!!

 

I'm sensing a Facebook status update............:lol:

[Mom-ninja.]

Hadn't heard this before.

 

Snort. Doesn't surprise me.

[Aelwydd]

Check this out.

 

My eyes glazed over somewhere about when it said that Spock's Vulcan salute is evil because it's really an upside down penis, but I now know that finding signs of Satanism is easy once you know how. Prince William, Helen Keller, Spider Man, Amy Grant, and most of the presidents of the world are Satanists - who knew?

 

Seriously how can people get so worked up about this stuff? Sure the peace symbol could be a broken cross. But we could equally (and just as illogically) say that the cross is a warped peace symbol, proving that Christianity is the enemy of peace.

 

 

Leonard Nimoy sort of co-opted the Vulcan hand salute from watching the rabbis in his youth give the peace sign (which is like a double Vulcan salute-- both hands). Imagine the surprise of Jewish people everywhere when they discover that they are actually giving the Satanic high-five every Saturday. :tongue_smilie:

[Aelwydd]

OP, you know, if you want to get technical, the cross itself is not really a "Christian" symbol either. For the first 300 years of Christian history, they used symbols like the fish for the Church. The cross was never used.

 

It became the symbol of Christianity when Constantine and his armies began to conquer using that sign--the sign of the cross. It became synonymous with the sword, which has the same design, and ever since, Christianity has become associated with a sign of violence and death.

 

The cross without Christ is just a curse. It presents a symbol of Christianity defined by violence and death. I far prefer the early Christian symbols, which came from a time when the Church was entirely pacifistic, and not the war mongering religion it became much later.

 

I'd even argue that the peace symbol is a more fitting sign of the Early Church than the cross. ;)

[ElizaG]

OP, you know, if you want to get technical, the cross itself is not really a "Christian" symbol either. For the first 300 years of Christian history, they used symbols like the fish for the Church. The cross was never used.

Not sure where you heard this, but it's false. (Kind of ironic to be spreading unsubstantiated claims in this thread, given the topic.)

 

The Wikipedia entry on the Christian cross has the following citation, among others:

 

'The Jewish Encyclopedia says:[12]

The cross as a Christian symbol or "seal" came into use at least as early as the second century (see "Apost. Const." iii. 17; Epistle of Barnabas, xi.-xii.; Justin, "Apologia," i. 55-60; "Dial. cum Tryph." 85-97); and the marking of a cross upon the forehead and the chest was regarded as a talisman against the powers of demons (Tertullian, "De Corona," iii.; Cyprian, "Testimonies," xi. 21–22; Lactantius, "Divinæ Institutiones," iv. 27, and elsewhere). Accordingly the Christian Fathers had to defend themselves, as early as the second century, against the charge of being worshipers of the cross, as may be learned from Tertullian, "Apologia," xii., xvii., and Minucius Felix, "Octavius," xxix.'

[Aelwydd]

Not sure where you heard this, but it's false. (Kind of ironic to be spreading unsubstantiated claims in this thread, given the topic.)

 

The Wikipedia entry on the Christian cross has the following citation, among others:

 

'The Jewish Encyclopedia says:[12]

The cross as a Christian symbol or "seal" came into use at least as early as the second century (see "Apost. Const." iii. 17; Epistle of Barnabas, xi.-xii.; Justin, "Apologia," i. 55-60; "Dial. cum Tryph." 85-97); and the marking of a cross upon the forehead and the chest was regarded as a talisman against the powers of demons (Tertullian, "De Corona," iii.; Cyprian, "Testimonies," xi. 21–22; Lactantius, "Divinæ Institutiones," iv. 27, and elsewhere). Accordingly the Christian Fathers had to defend themselves, as early as the second century, against the charge of being worshipers of the cross, as may be learned from Tertullian, "Apologia," xii., xvii., and Minucius Felix, "Octavius," xxix.'

 

You are referring to the making of the sign of the cross. I am referring to the use of the drawn or constructed symbol as an identifier for Church groups, buildings, and Christianity, itself. It was in sporadic use by some Christians before the third Century, and the fact that it was mainly by groups like Tertullian's, does not in any way increase its favor IMO. Tertullian was involved in Montanism. When the cross was depicted, it was most often done so as a crucifix, in iconography.

 

The synonymous cross/ sword design definitely did not appear in heavy use before Constatinople. Until that point, the cross was not THE main identifying symbol of Christianity.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Aelwydd

[lailasmum]

I just know it as the CND sign. Our local peace action group tends to use all sorts of symbols rainbows and doves and things even though they mostly campaign for nuclear disarmament. The V hand signal is peace isn't it?

[ElizaG]

The synonymous cross/ sword design definitely did not appear in heavy use before Constatinople. Until that point, the cross was not THE main identifying symbol of Christianity.

 

In that case, okay. :) But this is different from what you said before, i.e., "the cross itself is not really a 'Christian' symbol ," and "The cross was never used" [before Constantine].

 

Those are the sorts of claims one might find on web sites of certain sects, like this one.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Eleanor

[Julie in CA]

Never heard of the broken cross thing....but I do find it ironic that some Christians would think a peace symbol to be anti-Christian....hmmm do they even KNOW Jesus? :glare:

I've never heard of the broken cross thing either.

 

I wouldn't assume that Christians who don't approve of the peace symbol don't know Jesus. :001_huh:

 

That particular symbol doesn't especially appeal to me (and I am a Christian) because of the association with hippie drug culture, and because of mistreatment of homecoming soldiers in the name of "peace" and it's symbol.

 

I do know Jesus, and I love peace too, just not that particular symbol with it's social connotations. My kids don't wear it, either because of lack of desire, or out of respect for my feeling on the subject, but I don't condemn anyone else's display of the symbol.

[NASDAQ]

" Imagine the surprise of Jewish people everywhere when they discover that they are actually giving the Satanic high-five every Saturday."

 

Well, not that often. The hand signal Nimoy gives is the hand gesture that the Cohenim (priests) use to bless the congregation. That only happens on very special occasions -- high holidays, etc. And you're not supposed to look at them while they do it. It often shows up on gravestones to mark the graves of the Cohenim.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Blessing

[lovinmomma]

You know, this kinda remind me of how a certain relative jumps all over any "cuss words" we use. For example: We weren't (obviously) allowed to say the word that references someone going to he** and starts with a d so we would say dang-it or darn-it. Then, somehow, because we were using those words in order to not say the words we weren't supposed to say those words then became off limits.

I don't get that. We were obviously being mindful of not cussing hence the softer words, but somehow we were still not allowed to say those either. Gah! Sometimes there's just no winning.

[Rebel Yell]

I've never heard of the broken cross thing either.

 

I wouldn't assume that Christians who don't approve of the peace symbol don't know Jesus. :001_huh:

 

That particular symbol doesn't especially appeal to me (and I am a Christian) because of the association with hippie drug culture, and because of mistreatment of homecoming soldiers in the name of "peace" and it's symbol.

 

I do know Jesus, and I love peace too, just not that particular symbol with it's social connotations. My kids don't wear it, either because of lack of desire, or out of respect for my feeling on the subject, but I don't condemn anyone else's display of the symbol.

 

:iagree:The above sums up my opinion exactly.

 

[lovinmomma]

yes, I have heard of it. My mom wouldn't allow me to wear it.

 

But for her, I believe it was a symbol of the hippie movement back when she was a teen, and she really didn't agree with much of what occurred in that movement.

 

It didn't have anything (for her) to do with the fact that it was a "broken cross" but more a symbol of a thought process and lifestyle that she, as a Christian lady, did not agree with.

 

Me personally, I don't care one way or the other.

 

This. This was me.

[beccad777]

I don't like my kids to wear the peace sign because to me it is a symbol of the hippie movement. There is pretty much nothing about the hippie movement that I agree with and I don't want my kids to promote that. Even if it is not associated with that today, I still feel that it is not appropriate. I had never heard of the broken cross thing and we are conservative Christians.

[a27mom]

I am conservative but never heard of the broken cross thing. That sounds absurd.

 

We don't allow the peace sign on our kids clothes etc...primarily because it is highly offensive to my father who served in the Army during the Vietnam era. He refers to it as "the footprint of the American chicken". He served stateside during the war so he received a lot of abuse in the name of peace.

 

But also, after reading the history, I don't find that it is a symbol of true peace. It is nuclear disarmament symbol, and now primarily refers to peace as in the absence of war. While no war would be nice, it is not humanly possible and won't be happening. To me true peace is the reconciliation between God and individuals first, and then individuals and other individuals.

 

But I don't care if you or your kids want to wear it, and I would not comment on it to you. people have a right to their own convictions or lack thereof.

[IsabelC]

Gosh, it actually really does look like a chicken footprint now that you mention it.

[OrganicAnn]

We were told (at a private school open house, talking to a teacher, oddly enough) that it was an N and a D for nuclear disarmament. I can't remember how the N and D worked out to the symbol, but it made sense when it was explained. We also are in a very conservative crowd, and I have never heard the broken cross story. Reminds me of all the Christmas symbol stories you hear.

 

Wikied it.... it is the semaphore signals for N and D.

 

 

It was created in England for an anti nuclear protest.

 

 

Wow people do come up with weird interpretations on things.

 

What do they say a smile face means :001_smile: "I'm up to no good"

[lotsofpumpkins]

This site has a pretty thorough history of the peace sign.

http://www.teachpeace.com/peacesymbolhistory.htm

[i found the site by searching "peace sign nero" because I remembered reading how the peace sign can be associated with Nero's persecution of Christians]

 

Anyway, although I do believe that most people wear the sign innocently, I personally do not allow my dc to wear it because of all the negatives it could potentially represent. I do think this is one of those areas: If you are convicted about it, then don't do it.

 

Dd has a friend at church who wears peace signs all the time, but we don't tell her that she shouldn't. That's between her and her parents.

[Cricket]

I remember hearing about the broken cross thing growing up. Can't remember who said it to me though. I thought maybe it came from a Chick Tract or something. :001_smile:

 

I painted words (the fruits of the Spirit) and symbols all over one wall in dds' room. Dh doesn't worry about what anyone thinks about anything but was worried what his parents would say. (They didn't say anything.) He was forbidden to wear peace signs as a kid.

 

My dds have peace signs on a lot of their clothes but dh won't let them wear any of them to church. Funny how that stuff stays with you, isn't it?!

[kitten18]

I've never heard of such a thing. I must not run in the right circles... ;)

 

Sorry your daughter is getting a hard time about it. Good grief, don't we have more important things to worry about?? :grouphug:

:iagree:

 

Check this out.

 

My eyes glazed over somewhere about when it said that Spock's Vulcan salute is evil because it's really an upside down penis, but I now know that finding signs of Satanism is easy once you know how. Prince William, Helen Keller, Spider Man, Amy Grant, and most of the presidents of the world are Satanists - who knew?

 

Seriously how can people get so worked up about this stuff? Sure the peace symbol could be a broken cross. But we could equally (and just as illogically) say that the cross is a warped peace symbol, proving that Christianity is the enemy of peace.

HILARIOUS

 

Leonard Nimoy sort of co-opted the Vulcan hand salute from watching the rabbis in his youth give the peace sign (which is like a double Vulcan salute-- both hands). Imagine the surprise of Jewish people everywhere when they discover that they are actually giving the Satanic high-five every Saturday. :tongue_smilie:

:lol:

[Mom2Es]

I don't care what Pat Robinson or anyone else says. The person who actually created it should know for goodness sake, and it has nothing to do with God at all.

 

Well, the person who "created" it allegedly preferred it to be displayed facing upward instead of down because the original design was a symbol of despair. Repurposed is a better term than "created" as it is very similar to other symbols already used before that time with varying meanings. Additionally, he said he based it on an image from a painting (The Third of May 1808 by Francisco Goya) that is argued to have both socialist and specifically anti-Catholic symbolism in it. The head of the CND at the time it was commissioned was Bertrand Russell, who believed in "peace without God." It's not just a statement of "I like being peaceful;" it's specifically a symbol of pacifism and anti-nukes and was also heavily used by the hippie sub-culture.

 

My general policy for my kids is not to have them walking around using political symbols as fashion. When they get a little older, if they want to wear some sort of symbol, they can do so only after they have a full understanding of what it stands for and how it's been used and by whom.

 

My opinion about the peace sign is similar to my opinion about the confederate flag. Not everyone who uses it or has used it has bad intentions, but it's been associated with enough things that I don't care to be associated with that I personally don't display it. Your child might not intend it in the way that other people associate it, but I wouldn't automatically roll my eyes and shake my head at everyone who has a problem with it.

 

Here's the version from Straight Dope, which is a little bit more reliable than Wiki: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/435/what-is-the-origin-of-the-peace-symbol

[TravelingChris]

None of my kids would use it. They all liken it to the peace movement- namely people who like to protest their dad. We are not pacifists and strongly reject the idea that in order to be a Christian, one needs to be a pacifist. We are not for nuclear disarmament at this time in our world. (Don't want to say never because we don't know what technologies may develop but let's just say there are countries who have weapons that we don't trust at all-like North Korea- so we can't don't agree with disarmament).

 

Have I heard the broken cross thing? Yes, and I thought it was stupid. I don't think the symbol is Satanic. How I would view the wearing of the symbol depends on who is wearing it. On a teen, probably think it is a fashion statement, not a political one. On a fifty year old, political statement. Oh and I can get along fine with others of differing political bents. After all, I used to board my cats in a socialist's cattery- she apparently wasn't too bright and didn't see the irony of running a business while extolling the virtues of Che., but she had a wonderful cattery.