If you don't do youth group could you tell me why (much more inside)?

[Laurie4b]

Here's what I like about youth groups:

 

Like you, I was not raised in a Christian home. Thank God for the youth organization that discipled me in my teenaged years!

 

I don't look at youth group through only the lens of what can it do for my kid (or not do for my kid). I look at it as a place where he can serve, where he can help make disciples as well as become a better disciple. Maybe there are other kids like I was--from an unbelieving home--that will join the youth group. I hope so! I'm not going to worry about him being influenced by them. I trust that he will influence them.

 

I have a wonderful dh who has done a tremendous job with our sons ;however, I am very grateful for other men in my sons' lives. Their guitar teacher is one such man; their youth group minister is another. I am thankful for his influence in my life as well.

 

Our youth group provides a place for more musicians than can be accomodated in our worship service to hone their ability to lead worship. My ds is one of those.

 

They have small groups for the high school students, for deep Bible study and prayer.

 

They get encouragement to serve around the church, to serve elsewhere in the community, the US, and foreign countries where our church has ties. We could not organize some of these experiences for our whole family, though we regularly serve as a family.

 

They do fun things together. I don't have any problem with that at all.

 

Parents are encouraged to serve as teachers and leaders in the youth program, as are people from a wide spectrum of ages, from college students to grandparents.

 

I'm thankful for that experience for my kids. It doesn't replace what we do at home, but it does offer reinforcement of what we do. It's a great complement. And, it does serve as a place where kids who do not have believing parents can grow in their faith in the Lord.

 

I'm sure that there are youth groups that are not good for the spiritual development of youth, just as there are various churches, conferences, Bible teachers, etc. whose influence I would avoid. To me, it's a matter of discernment.

[Mrs Mungo]

There is no youth group right now, they are looking to start something for the 6th -9th graders during church (which I am opposed to). This summer they have started to have Wii sports parties at the pastor's house on Friday nights for these middle schoolers. They are supervised by the Pastor's daughter and her husband (whom we love and are friends with dd).

 

I haven't read the rest of the thread. However, 6th grade to 9th grade would mean 12 year olds hanging out with 16 year olds. I don't think that's wise.

[Erica in PA]

Here's what I like about youth groups:

 

Like you, I was not raised in a Christian home. Thank God for the youth organization that discipled me in my teenaged years!

 

I don't look at youth group through only the lens of what can it do for my kid (or not do for my kid). I look at it as a place where he can serve, where he can help make disciples as well as become a better disciple. Maybe there are other kids like I was--from an unbelieving home--that will join the youth group. I hope so! I'm not going to worry about him being influenced by them. I trust that he will influence them.

 

I have a wonderful dh who has done a tremendous job with our sons ;however, I am very grateful for other men in my sons' lives. Their guitar teacher is one such man; their youth group minister is another. I am thankful for his influence in my life as well.

 

Our youth group provides a place for more musicians than can be accomodated in our worship service to hone their ability to lead worship. My ds is one of those.

 

They have small groups for the high school students, for deep Bible study and prayer.

 

They get encouragement to serve around the church, to serve elsewhere in the community, the US, and foreign countries where our church has ties. We could not organize some of these experiences for our whole family, though we regularly serve as a family.

 

They do fun things together. I don't have any problem with that at all.

 

Parents are encouraged to serve as teachers and leaders in the youth program, as are people from a wide spectrum of ages, from college students to grandparents.

 

I'm thankful for that experience for my kids. It doesn't replace what we do at home, but it does offer reinforcement of what we do. It's a great complement. And, it does serve as a place where kids who do not have believing parents can grow in their faith in the Lord.

 

I'm sure that there are youth groups that are not good for the spiritual development of youth, just as there are various churches, conferences, Bible teachers, etc. whose influence I would avoid. To me, it's a matter of discernment.

 

Great post, Laurie! Your church sounds like they are doing a wonderful job with your youth program. I think it's great when churches involve parents and lots of different types of people with the youth. That's what we would like to do as well, but we're just getting started. We want to really stress service as well.

 

My experience as a teen was so much like yours! Maybe that's why we agree so often. :) I grew up in a non-Christian home, came to know the Lord through a Bible study at the home of one of my public school teachers, and then was discipled through the youth program at the church I joined. The Lord used it in my life in a huge way. I'm glad that our church offers this ministry, to unsaved kids like I was, and to my own children. While ultimately dh and I are the major influences on our children spiritually, and they also learn a lot from our regular worship services, I still believe a good youth program adds much of value to these good things. As you said, it's a great complement.

 

Erica

[Erica in PA]

The Bible is very clear about the function of a church and of what the leadership should consist. Again, there is nothing in the Bible about youth group leaders.

 

 

It is *because* I hold the Bible in such very high respect (as do you, Kathleen, I know), that I am reluctant to assign anything to it that it does not clearly say. I believe that in doing so, that crosses the line into putting some of our conclusions and preferences into the Bible itself. The Bible does not address the issue of youth ministry, so I cannot agree that the Bible teaches against it. This has nothing to do with my positive experiences with youth groups, or the fact that dh and I are helping with ours. If the Bible taught against it, I would accept that as fact. My reverence for the Lord and my devotion to His Word goes far beyond any personal experiences or preferences I might have.

 

Now on the other hand, I can well understand why someone would apply biblical principles and reach the conclusion that a particular activity is not a good idea for them. I do that all the time, we all do. That sounds to me what some of you have done regarding youth ministry, and that's fine. One could very logically say, "The Bible says that parents should be the primary influence in their children's lives. I am concerned that with the influence of a youth pastor and a youth program, I might not have the influence over my children's spiritual development that the Lord wants me to have. And I don't know that I like the idea of the youth being off by themselves, and not interacting with adults of the church. And the Bible never mentions a youth pastor, so it's not something that a church even has to have at all. So, I think it would be best for my children not to participate in a youth program."

 

That's great, and those are the kinds of applications of God's Word that we need to make as believers. I totally respect that conclusion regarding youth ministry. However, we Christians will make different applications of biblical principles, when the how-to's are not clearly spelled out. We need to be careful in saying that such things are black and white, or that what we have decided means that the Bible itself says that. The Bible says what it says. We make applications to our lives the best we can. But we shouldn't attribute our applications directly to the Bible, though the Bible influenced our perspective.

 

The other thing I wanted to ask you is about your quote above. You said that youth pastors are not mentioned in the Bible, so that contributes to your idea that they are unbiblical... what about assistant pastors? Or an on-staff worship leader? What about a children's choir director? Or a Sunday School teacher? Would you consider any church position other than those specifically mentioned in the Bible, to be wrong as well? We might as well use the word *wrong* because since we agree that Bible is the revelation of God's truth, anything that is unbiblical is *wrong*.

 

To follow your thinking logically, also, your children are not only receiving spiritual teaching from you, are they? Obviously they learn and benefit from at least the teaching of your pastor (I'm assuming you have only one, and no Sunday school) at church. So if that is not an abdication of your parental responsibility (and clearly it's not), why is a youth pastor? Does the whole idea hinge only on the fact that a youth pastor is not mentioned in the Bible? I'm trying to point out that the biblical instructions for parents to teach their children, as Laurie said, is not a prohibition against *anyone else* teaching their child anything about the Lord. It's just saying where the ultimate responsibility lies.

 

 

Erica

[Kathleen in VA]

It is *because* I hold the Bible in such very high respect (as do you, Kathleen, I know), that I am reluctant to assign anything to it that it does not clearly say. I believe that in doing so, that crosses the line into putting some of our conclusions and preferences into the Bible itself. The Bible does not address the issue of youth ministry, so I cannot agree that the Bible teaches against it. This has nothing to do with my positive experiences with youth groups, or the fact that dh and I are helping with ours. If the Bible taught against it, I would accept that as fact. My reverence for the Lord and my devotion to His Word goes far beyond any personal experiences or preferences I might have.

 

Now on the other hand, I can well understand why someone would apply biblical principles and reach the conclusion that a particular activity is not a good idea for them. I do that all the time, we all do. That sounds to me what some of you have done regarding youth ministry, and that's fine. One could very logically say, "The Bible says that parents should be the primary influence in their children's lives. I am concerned that with the influence of a youth pastor and a youth program, I might not have the influence over my children's spiritual development that the Lord wants me to have. And I don't know that I like the idea of the youth being off by themselves, and not interacting with adults of the church. And the Bible never mentions a youth pastor, so it's not something that a church even has to have at all. So, I think it would be best for my children not to participate in a youth program."

 

That's great, and those are the kinds of applications of God's Word that we need to make as believers. I totally respect that conclusion regarding youth ministry. However, we Christians will make different applications of biblical principles, when the how-to's are not clearly spelled out. We need to be careful in saying that such things are black and white, or that what we have decided means that the Bible itself says that. The Bible says what is says. We make applications to our lives the best we can. But we shouldn't attribute our applications directly to the Bible, though the Bible influenced our perspective.

 

The other thing I wanted to ask you is about your quote above. You said that youth pastors are not mentioned in the Bible, so that contributes to your idea that they are unbiblical... what about assistant pastors? Or an on-staff worship leader? What about a children's choir director? Or a Sunday School teacher? Would you consider any church position other than those specifically mentioned in the Bible, to be wrong as well? We might as well use the word *wrong* because since we agree that Bible is the revelation of God's truth, anything that is unbiblical is *wrong*.

 

To follow your thinking logically, also, your children are not only receiving spiritual teaching from you, are they? Obviously they learn and benefit from at least the teaching of your pastor (I'm assuming you have only one, and no Sunday school) at church. So if that is not an abdication of your parental responsibility, why is a youth pastor? I'm trying to point out that the biblical instructions for parents to teach their children, as Laurie said, is not a prohibition against *anyone else* teaching their child anything about the Lord. It's just saying where the ultimate responsibility lies.

 

 

Erica

 

Well, as I have already stated, I am a fallible human being. I do not believe I have the "goods" on the Bible by any stretch;). I am just very cautious about accepting the status quo without running it by what I believe the Bible to be saying. You are right about that being up for grabs to a certain extent. I don't even agree with everything my own Pastor says - he is, after all, just a man. None of us will have perfect understanding of God or His Word until we are in heaven.

 

I think it is a dangerous and slippery slope to say that just because there is no direct mention of youth pastors one way or another in the Bible that means they are ok. The Bible speaks very plainly about the leadership of the church. In addition, I see no requirement in the Bible for having only one pastor. I Timothy 3 discusses the qualifications for elders and deacons. There is no limit as to how many a church may have. There is no mention of an elder or deacon whose sole responsibility is for the welfare of young people between the ages of 12 and 20.

 

We have two elders at our church and several deacons. A lay person leads the music each week. We do have a Sunday School - a matter of much debate when it was instituted several years after we joined. We are free to include our children in the adult Sunday School if we so desire. There is still much disagreement concerning the validity of a Sunday School but many put up with it due to the soundness of our church on many other counts.

 

I have nothing against others having a positive influence on my children - friends, neighbors, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. I have nothing against ministering to young people. I don't think we should hire a special Pastor for any specific age group - I see no biblical basis for doing so.

 

As I stated before, the Hebrew model that the New Testament is patterned after separates people into children and adults. I believe the "youth" emphasis of many churches comes from the false, unbiblical notion that adolescence is another stage of human development. Because our culture has veritably forced this age group into putting off adulthood, we feel we must create a separate ministry to them. It is a sad thing that our culture has created this group of people who are not children but neither are they adults. We stunt their development by putting them in this unnatural category and then we think we must develop a whole different method of reaching them in our churches.

 

The method of reaching lost souls is no different today than it was two thousand years ago - preach the gospel. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. We do not need to dress it in teenage culture to reach teenagers. These teens are actually young adults and churches as a whole have a responsibility to reach out to them in love and with the pure gospel of Jesus Christ. It's not really that complicated. It is the same for everyone.

 

We need to include these teens in our churches - not segregate them in their own age group. They need adult believers, whole families (especially if they haven't got one of their own) to minister to them - lots of folks from every age group and with every age group. That is what the church of Christ is - believers of all ages.

 

I come from a broken home. I lived with my mother who was a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. She spent most of my childhood and young adult years in mental hospitals after multiple suicide attempts. I belonged to a church that had a youth group and I was part of it. I believe they ministered to me the best that they knew how and I appreciate it - really I do. But I was not protected there as well as I should have been. I think being taken in by a family or many families, for that matter, would have been a more biblical approach to helping me. I needed a mother and father - not one Pastor and a bunch of other kids my age.

 

My personal experience aside, I still see nothing in the Bible to support the notion of a separate pastor directed at ministering to a limited age group. That is just the way I see it and as I have stated more than once I am a fallible human being. We all must be diligent to search the scriptures to make sure that we not pandering to our emotions or wishes, but are truly worshiping God according to His will. This is a very serious thing not to be taken lightly.

 

Let us not make the mistake of saying that since we had a good experience with a youth group that is confirmation that it is God's will. Many things that are not God's will have "worked," but like I said before, we must be careful not to think pragmatically but, rather, scripturally. I am very glad to know that others have been helped and not harmed by their youth group experiences, but I do not see what bearing that has on the subject. Is it possible that if the church they were attending this youth group at had taken a different and, in my view, a more biblical approach that those same folks might have been helped even more? There is no way to know, but I'd venture to say it *is* possible.

 

I only hope that as Christians we make a point of finding out what God wants and not what we want. It is God's universe after all. He set it in motion and created the laws it runs by, both physical and spiritual. We need to be very careful that we obey those laws for our own well-being and to bring him honor and glory. In Leviticus 9 God gave very strict instructions to Moses and Aaron regarding how He wanted to be worshiped. Immediately following that, Aaron's sons, Nadab and Abihu, disregarded God's instructions and offered "strange fire before the Lord." We do not know exactly what strange fire they offered, but that is immaterial - they disobeyed God. Lev. 10:2 says "So fire went out from the Lord and devoured them and they died before the Lord." God cares how we worship Him - it is not a light thing. That is all I have tried to communicate in all my posts in this thread. We must find out what God wants and we do that by reading His word.

[kortney in AL]

This past November we left our church of 15 years to join a family-integrated church. The youth group (and a very immature youth director) were the main problems we had with the former church. All four of our kids just felt "beat up" all the time there because the other kids treated them like they were freaks for being homeschooled. I know there's probably some good youth groups out there, but that was just not the case where we were. We love being where there is no age segregation. We are all in Sunday school together so we can discuss as a family what we learned that morning.

[FO4UR]

I don't have time now to read all the replies, but I did want to give my pov.:001_smile:

I think it's best to take it on a case-by-case basis. The value or harm in a youth group comes from the leadership.

 

When I was a teen, our youth group was often not glorifying to God - not enough real supervision or guidance. I was also a part of a small youth Bible study that God absolutely used to train me up. The difference was the adult leaders.

 

My dh has served as youth/family/children's minister for several years of our marriage. He and I will be the first to tell parents to investigate before just sending them off thinking it's "safe" just b/c it's church. TOO MANY youth groups are just diversions/distractions. HOWEVER, there are some people giving their lives to teach/train/love young people so that they might rise up and boldly serve the Lord!

 

One indicator for parents looking into youth groups is the level of parental involvment in the group. A youth minister with a heart for the salvation and discipleship of the youth will actively seek to minister to the whole family...(similarities with the family integration philosophy, eh?:tongue_smilie:). Youth groups should really be more like groups of families with the same-aged dc working together, supporting each other and the youth minister is simply the servant leader of the group. (He is not a one-man clown show paid to entertain your kiddie's while the grown-ups worship:glare:...and if he is then I wouldn't send my dc)

 

I look for a youth minister who avoids taking the kids out of the service to play, but rather seeks opportunity to teach the kids how to SERVE in the service. Youth groups provide opportunity to teach different areas of service and leadership. Granted, parents can and should be doing this to beign with....but what about the kids who's parents don't/won't?

 

To sum up my rambling:001_huh::lol:...I think youth groups CAN be a wonderful thing, but many (maybe most:crying:) aren't. If I trust the adult leaders, then I would let my dc participate. I would do my share of volunteering to help and teach, and being a part of the group will either alieviate any fears or shine light on any problems.

[Natalieclare]

[quote name=M&M;380973

 

There is no youth group right now' date=' they are looking to start something for the 6th -9th graders during church (which I am opposed to). This summer they have started to have Wii sports parties at the pastor's house on Friday nights for these middle schoolers. They are supervised by the Pastor's daughter and her husband (whom we love and are friends with dd).

 

Does this sound like the beginning of a youth group? Would this be and activity you would avoid if your were agianst youth groups.

 

Dh and I are on the fence about how to view youth groups these days. It was good for us, but it would have been better to have been discipled by my parents (in a perfect world). We have been listening to Voddie Baucham and he has some really good points.

 

Ok, this has gotten long....what say you?

 

I'll start off by saying I have not read most of the other posts; I'm dying to because this topic fascinates me, but I wanted to give you my thoughts straight from the hip. ('cause they're so germaine, doncha know!)

 

Anyway, I was primarily discipled by my youth group as a teen and I don't choose to have my kids go down that same road (for many of the same diplomatic reasons you listed;)). My kids are in full accord about this... though it's not like they have a choice since for the last 2 years the church we go to (started) is age-integrated. :D But, they wouldn't want to go even if they could.

 

This is because we provide LOTS of opportunities for them to get together with friends. We mostly do family get-togethers and I love this, though at one time I thought it VERY weird, because it has the effect of minimizing the self-centeredness of teens. (That's my main issue with elevating serving a particular age group; it just seems off-focus from the way real life is.) Anyway, I feel that when the teens do projects, play games, have lively conversation, goof around, discuss the Word and *clean up* alongside both adults and younger kids it keeps things well balanced. This requires a lot of me--I really don't like volleyball and my dh broke 2 ribs playing football with the guys--but it's so worth it.

 

The teens at our church have really grown to include 6 yo boys and their mommas in their volleyball games; the boys, in particular, have learned lessons in selflessness as they play flag football instead of tackle so the little ones can be included.

 

All that is to say I would go the wii night if parents and siblings were also invited. I see nothing wrong with getting together and having a good time as long as self-centeredness isn't catered to.

[FlockOfSillies]

It is *because* I hold the Bible in such very high respect (as do you, Kathleen, I know), that I am reluctant to assign anything to it that it does not clearly say. I believe that in doing so, that crosses the line into putting some of our conclusions and preferences into the Bible itself.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

"...do not go beyond what stands written." When we start saying that our personal applications of biblical principles are the only proper ones, we risk turning "Thus says the Lord" into "Thus says I."

 

In a church that functions more like a family than a business, where godly people are coming alongside one another and encouraging one another in their Christian walk, a "youth" ministry can be a fruitful endeavor. If the kids are being taught God's Word; if they have godly examples to look up to besides their parents (Hey! My folks aren't the only ones who believe this stuff!); if those godly people are supporting and encouraging the parents in their proper role as primary authority over their children; and if the kids are being trained in the art of service to the local body, then a youth group is a very good thing that serves many biblical purposes.

 

I'd also argue that one of the fruitful uses of a well-structured youth ministry is that of evangelism. Many a teen has been granted entrance into the Kingdom through youth ministry because it was the only place where they saw genuine Christian love being manifested, and it was the only place and time where they heard God's Word preached.

 

I've seen and/or worked in the good, the bad, and the ugly of youth groups. I'm the last person to say that the church should do something simply because "it works, therefore God must be blessing it." Dh and I left the church where we got saved because the leadership was headed toward the Purpose-Driven model. Now that we're in a church where the philosophy of ministry is much more biblically driven, I'd probably put my kids in the youth group when the time came. But your typical "drop 'em off and we'll entertain 'em" youth group? Uh, no.

[Marie in Oh]

Our oldest has 1 more year till he is old enough for youth group. We are leaning toward him not being a part of it. Ours is quite entertainment driven. I think there is some descipleship going on, but there is a whole lot of foolishness too.

 

Our church is not family integrated, but they do have kids 1st grade and up in worship. We bring our rising K'er as well. They all do fine. I don't like the entertainment mentality in the kids classes. The music they have been introduced to, in my opionion, has been inappropriate. I don't think kids who are 4, 5, and 6 need to have anything to keep the excited about church but some stories and some crafts. And the earlier they introduce the entertainment factor to kids, the harder it will be to retain their interest as they get older. So things have to get more and more outrageous to keep them interested.

 

The problem is that the church thinks it has to compete with the culture in order to keep kids interested. In a world of media, church is boring. Our leadership says flat out that church needs to be exciting or the kids won't come. Balongna! The church should be counter-cultural.

 

We are not normal in our church by any means. We will totally be going against the flow if our children don't attend youth group, but we'd rather them be serving in the church on Wednesday nights in AWANA or in the nursury, or flat out attending the dreaded prayer meeting where they can see how God works than listening to the elders (by this I mean the elderly members) of the church pray in faith.

 

I am surprised and encouraged to see how many people agree here. Even amongst homeschoolers we are radically different in the way we are raising our children here. I am glad to know there are many here that share our views. It makes one not feel quite so alone.

[Erica in PA]

"I think it is a dangerous and slippery slope to say that just because there is no direct mention of youth pastors one way or another in the Bible that means they are ok."

 

I do not maintain this position. I don't think the fact that youth pastors are not mentioned means that they are okay. But it also doesn't automatically mean that they are *not* okay. It requires looking at other biblical principles, and then drawing our own conclusions to make a decision on this issue. And in doing so, that opens up the door to varying opinions that could all be supported by biblical principles-- hence none of us can claim that ours is the only biblical perspective.

 

I think we are beginning to speak past one another a little bit at this point, so I'll let it go after this post to avoid the appearance of arguing. (I don't feel that we are arguing, I am not in any way upset by this conversation, and I sincerely hope that you aren't either. I just don't want it to come across that way to anyone else reading this, or to you.)

 

As a closing note, I just want to again say that I totally understand your reasoning against youth groups. I think it's a logical application of biblical principles to decide a youth group isn't in your child's best interest. However, I maintain that though an application from God's Word may be an appropriate one, it is still an application-- not the actual word of God itself. And therefore, there are various possible applications that may differ, that can still be considered "biblical." The *only* point where I believe you are in error, is in considering youth ministry to be *wrong,* i.e. against the Bible's teaching. Other than that, I agree with you.

 

Erica

[M&M]

I guess I wonder why we have to segregate our teens or pre teens from everyone else. I know there are many families that don't disciple their children, shouldn't other families be the ones to help these children. Couldn't all of these wonderful things happen in family and church member integrated groups.

 

We have 5 children, we don't have time to help out in a group for each child. I cannot do youth group, and jr high youth group, and kids programs(AWANA for example -we don't have it but kwim). We would have to have a babysitter every night of the week to care for all of the other children.

 

Our church does community service, church group outings, movies in the park, volunteer work...why not develop these a family/group ministries why seperate our church body? I understand about these kids, I was one of them. But I was never really a part of the church, I was on the outside in the youth group but not a part of the church body. Youth group did not grow me into the adult areas of the church. When the great youth pastor was gone, so were most of the kids. It took years for me to get back on the right path.

 

I guess all of this is answering yours and others that want to know what about those kids who are at church without parents...they are included and cared for by the church. Isn't that a big part of what the church is all about -loving others as Christ has loved us?

[LisaNY]

I don't think it's an either/or situation, but a both/and situation. Parents are commanded to teach their children the commandments, to bring their children up in the nurture and training of the Lord, not to exasperate their children, etc. They are not commnded not to let anyone else influence their children. The church was commanded to "make disciples." We are the primary influence in our children's lives, but I am very grateful for the influence of other believers. Our teenagers both attend the worship service with us and go to youth group activities.

 

I go to a women's Bible study and small group. I don't consider that unbiblical either.

 

I agree with Laurie here. The congregation should be a place of community, where believers regularly meet (not just once a week) to build relationships with one another. If your church has a youth group, and you choose to not have your dc participate, you are hindering the flow of body life and community for them. If they are typical youth, who usually *like* to get together with other youth, they will always feel like outsiders. If they are homeschooled, even more so. If I may be so bold, I would suggest that you and your dh decide right now if you want your dc participating in youth group or not. If not, I might think about finding a church that does not have a youth group.

 

My dh and I lead the youth in our congregation for ten years. I never met a kid (homeschooled and not) that did not want to join youth group when they came of age. And we were not an entertainment-based group, either. It didn't matter to them. They just wanted to be a part of it. :001_smile:

[M&M]

To clarify why I think youth groups are unbiblical:

 

First you must ask what is the purpose of a youth group? Why does a church think forming one is necessary? What are they hoping to accomplish? I went to several churches growing up where there was a youth group. My understanding of the purpose for such an organization, generally speaking, is to provide Christian education and Christian fellowship for young people ages 12-20 (or thereabouts). In the Hebrew community once a child turns 13 he is no longer considered a child, but an adult. He is expected to take his place in the adult community. Our society has created an unusual species called the adolescent. Perhaps this is why it is so difficult for us to imagine that there might be something odd about that thing we call a "youth group."

 

The Bible is very clear about who should educate children. It speaks mainly to the fathers and then to parents corporately. There are many verses speaking to parents about raising their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord; there are no verses speaking to youth group leaders. I am speaking here about organized youth groups with youth group leaders. I am not speaking about organizing activities through the families in a church for the sake of providing wholesome fellowship for our children and ourselves for that matter. One is a system whereby parents release their children to the authority and supervision of another supposed church leader. The other is a means of providing meaningful activities in a group setting supervised and under the authority of the heads of each household.

 

The Bible is very clear about the function of a church and of what the leadership should consist. Again, there is nothing in the Bible about youth group leaders.

 

Yes, I know, there is nothing in the Bible about computers and airplanes either. Just because something is *not* mentioned in the Bible does not make it a neutral subject, however. The Bible *does* mention how we are to educate our children and where we are to go for fellowship. The Bible *does* mention what the structure of leadership in a church should be and the qualifications for that leadership.

 

I think the church has stepped in to take over this responsibility because so many parents have abdicated it. I like what Dr. Voddie Baucham says to this line of thinking, (roughly quoted, mind you) "If your congregation stopped tithing, would you step in and do that for them?" This is taken from a sermon he delivered at a pastor's conference, a link for which I have already provided in this thread.

 

I am not trying to be difficult here, but I think it is so like humans to just go with the flow and not question things - especially if there are some aspects of the thing we ought to question that might be to our liking.

 

It has been brought up that youth groups are worthwhile because they have been instrumental in bringing people to Christ. That is pragmatic thinking. Just because something "worked" in one case (or thousands for that matter) does not make it biblical or worthwhile. It is by God's grace and His grace alone that anyone is saved and He does not need youth groups to bestow that grace.

 

If you are a Christian, I challenge you to use God's word and His word alone as your guide. Study it out. What does God say about who should be the spiritual leaders of their children? What does God say about the structure of leadership in the church? What does God say about Christian fellowship?

 

God gave us His word as our guide for righteous living. We need to put our feelings and fond memories aside and make sure we are doing His will and not our own.

 

Go back and find the link to Voddie Baucham's sermon. He says it so much better than I can. He has studied it out more and is much more articulate that I am. Please know that I am not trying to offend anyone here or make anyone feel foolish. I never saw anything wrong with youth groups until someone pointed out to me that they are not biblical. I had never considered whether they were or weren't. I have been blessed to be a member of a church for 22 years which has never had a youth group. We have plenty of fellowship as families throughout the year. We get together as large groups and sometimes just as two or three families at a time.

 

.

 

:iagree:

 

I agree with most of this. I am still working out if I would say these ministries are unbiblical. This is still a matter of prayer and study for me.

[M&M]

I agree with Laurie here. The congregation should be a place of community, where believers regularly meet (not just once a week) to build relationships with one another. If your church has a youth group, and you choose to not have your dc participate, you are hindering the flow of body life and community for them. If they are typical youth, who usually *like* to get together with other youth, they will always feel like outsiders. If they are homeschooled, even more so. If I may be so bold, I would suggest that you and your dh decide right now if you want your dc participating in youth group or not. If not, I might think about finding a church that does not have a youth group.

 

 

 

 

So, you feel that participation in youth group should be required of my children or they miss out on "flow of body life" (I don't know what that means) and community?

 

My children do get together with other youth and yes, they are homeschooled. But just as I don't think that education is a place for my children to be "socialized" in age segregated groups, I don't want my church requiring me to have my children discipled or to be social in age segregated groups.

 

Our church does not have a youth group right now, although I think that one is coming in the future. If I tried to find a church that fits our family in theology and purpose that and does not have a youth program, I think I would be hard pressed to find one.

[LisaNY]

So, you feel that participation in youth group should be required of my children or they miss out on "flow of body life" (I don't know what that means) and community?

 

My children do get together with other youth and yes, they are homeschooled. But just as I don't think that education is a place for my children to be "socialized" in age segregated groups, I don't want my church requiring me to have my children discipled or to be social in age segregated groups.

 

Our church does not have a youth group right now, although I think that one is coming in the future. If I tried to find a church that fits our family in theology and purpose that and does not have a youth program, I think I would be hard pressed to find one.

 

"Flow of body life/Community" - regularly getting together with other believers. Being a part of what is going on in your congregation, which would include home groups, youth groups, women's/men's groups, prayer groups, etc. If you have youth, and there is a youth group at your congregation, then it would be normal to expect your dc to be a part of what the youth in your congregation are doing. Just as adults in a congregation form bonds and relationships, I would expect the youth to do the same. (I know they would probably *want* to. As I said, this has been my experience.)

[Jugglin'5]

"Flow of body life" - there's the crux for me. Each congregation is different, but all the youth groups I have experience with seem to foster an actual disengagement from body life. But then, we are in an area where the churches all have their Xtreme Youth Wild Rampage groups, every one vying to be more exciting than the one down the street. The kids and their families go from church to church depending on which is the "hot" youth group right now.

I realize that there are good groups somewhere and that it doesn't have to be this way, but I wonder if the prevalence of these extremes can be traced back to a deficiency in the original model, IYKWIM? I don't have a "no age segregation whatsoever" stance, but I have seen the benefit in my own church of having family functions being the predominant force. It really adds to body life when the Grandmas and the kids are at the same functions. I am in a small church, though. I don't know what the answer is for larger churches.

[Cindy in FL.]

Our Church has a Christian School and the argument has been made that if you don't have your children in it you are somehow "forsaking the assembly" and denying the others in the school of your children's presence. I don't buy into that for a second in relation to the school or youth groups.

 

I have also heard it said that when children become teenagers they WILL, not might, stop listening to their parents and will need youth group relationships for direction. I see absolutely no reason that parents should expect this to happen. I fully expect to continue having close, open and respectful relationships with my children.

 

We keep our children in the service with us from birth on, believing that they are always capable on some level of benefitting from the worship and the preaching of the Word and that it doesn't have to be dumbed down for them.

 

I think that Voddie Baucham is spot on with his take on youth groups. They should be there to help the parents and in no way to undermine their place in their children's lives.

 

We are very firm in our decisions regarding schooling and youth activities and when someone brings it up we don't argue or defend. Just state the facts and move on to another topic.

 

Cindy

[Kathleen in VA]

"I think it is a dangerous and slippery slope to say that just because there is no direct mention of youth pastors one way or another in the Bible that means they are ok."

 

I do not maintain this position. I don't think the fact that youth pastors are not mentioned means that they are okay. But it also doesn't automatically mean that they are *not* okay. It requires looking at other biblical principles, and then drawing our own conclusions to make a decision on this issue. And in doing so, that opens up the door to varying opinions that could all be supported by biblical principles-- hence none of us can claim that ours is the only biblical perspective.

 

I think we are beginning to speak past one another a little bit at this point, so I'll let it go after this post to avoid the appearance of arguing. (I don't feel that we are arguing, I am not in any way upset by this conversation, and I sincerely hope that you aren't either. I just don't want it to come across that way to anyone else reading this, or to you.)

 

As a closing note, I just want to again say that I totally understand your reasoning against youth groups. I think it's a logical application of biblical principles to decide a youth group isn't in your child's best interest. However, I maintain that though an application from God's Word may be an appropriate one, it is still an application-- not the actual word of God itself. And therefore, there are various possible applications that may differ, that can still be considered "biblical." The *only* point where I believe you are in error, is in considering youth ministry to be *wrong,* i.e. against the Bible's teaching. Other than that, I agree with you.

 

Erica

 

Erica,

 

This conversation has been a real brain stretcher for me and I have enjoyed your friendly challenge to defend my point of view - it is always a good thing to have to put one's thoughts down on paper (or screen, as it were) and think through one's position. I agree, to some extent, that the Bible can be applied differently. That's tricky, though, because you could carry it to an extreme and use that argument to justify pretty much anything. (I am using the term "you" universally speaking here). From what you have written, I wouldn't expect you, personally, to do that - it just can be tricky because it lets the camel's nose in the tent, so to say.

 

I think you and I are fairly like-minded and I appreciate your desire to clarify the issue in light of scripture. Like I said before, I'm quite sure I do not *know* what God means by His Word in all areas - not even close. We are all limited in our understanding to a great degree and will not be able to fully understand until we get to heaven.

 

The main thing is are we being loving to each other, to our church families, to our neighbors, to our enemies, and most importantly to God? Each of us has our own conscience to deal with - we must do our best to obey the truth that has been revealed to us, all the while allowing for others to disagree with our conclusions. Our response in all cases should be one of love. God may care very much whether we have youth groups or not, but I believe He cares more whether we are loving the people in those groups and pointing them to Christ.

 

To me, in this case, that means defending what we believe to be God's will without malice, praying for those who disagree with us if we believe them to be in serious and dangerous error, and agreeing to disagree knowing full well that our pov could be entirely wrong after all. Our motive should not be to prove our point but to give God glory and to encourage others to do the same. I sense you have a kind, loving heart Rebecca, and that you care deeply about giving God glory. I thank you, and others on this thread, for this opportunity to help me clarify my own thoughts on this subject. I hope they have been of some value to the OP in this case.

[VaKim]

I never met a kid (homeschooled and not) that did not want to join youth group when they came of age. And we were not an entertainment-based group, either. It didn't matter to them. They just wanted to be a part of it.

Well, you haven't met my dd. :)

[M&M]

This thread has been extremly helpful and I have enjoyed all of this discussion