Nanny State now wants to push nursing

[ktgrok]

Had I known at the time that BFing was better for me, I may have considered it more.

But know this - what turned me off to it was the over abundance of pushy BFing advocates. Constantly telling me what was best, how my kid would be dumb (impossible to prove), how it's so much better for bonding (lies and stupidity), etc, etc. there may be some accurate things that prove the 'best' argument, but the bottom line is that what is best for ME and MY family is all that matters.

 

And the bolded is the whole point. You didn't know that. WHY didn't you know that? Because no one told you. What they are talking about in new york is to make sure women DO know, that they ARE told. How can they make an informed decision without all the information? Women are dying of breast cancer, and breastfeeding reduces breast cancer risk. It is particularly effective in women that have breastcancer in their families...it can reduce the risk by almost 60%. But if you tell a woman that you are brow beating her? You say you didn't now something about breastfeeding that is important to know, then say that you didn't breastfeed because people were trying to tell you things about it. ????

[ktgrok]

There is one thing, though - should some people, who do not take care of themselves (NOT saying this would be low-income in general, though), be encouraged to breastfeed? :leaving:

I ask because there are some moms out there who can't wait to start smoking again (or smoked during pregnancy, even) - who don't eat well at all - who want to drink and even do some other less-than-legal substances. Should they be encouraged to breastfeed?

When I had Link, I was awakened the morning after his birth to a girl SCREAMING at nurses to bring her her baby so she could breastfeed it. They kept saying they couldn't do that, she kept yelling. Finally the doctor came in and told her that because of the high levels of drugs found in her system (and the baby's, I assume), they wouldn't let her breastfeed.

Maybe that's an affront to her rights - Idk. But I do think it was the right thing to do. I know some may not agree.

(Oh, and I asked to be moved to a different room about 20 minutes later, and the staff happily obliged. :D :lol: )

 

It varies with the drug, but as for smoking it is MUCH better for a baby whose mother smokes to be breastfed. The immunity it offers help offset the dangers of the second and third hand smoke.

[NASDAQ]

I birth in a hospital with these regulations.

 

It is both shaming and a complete pain in the tuchis. The PITA part is because the nursing staff isn't about to ferry formula back and forth, so every time one needs formula, one has to truck down to the desk, get the one (1) bottle, and truck it back. Babies eat a lot, and I had had a c-section.

 

This was despite the fact that I was using formula on the ped's recommendation because baby had jaundice.

 

Since you can't get any free stuff, you . . . don't get any free stuff. Which, again, is kind of a PITA. You can't leave Baby to head down to Wal Mart and pick up supplies. And even the gift shop isn't allowed to sell anything that might contribute to poor breastfeeding, such as (gasp!) pacifiers. Again, good bloody luck if the pediatrician wants your Noob to suck a pacifier because he's small and needs to practice suckling.

 

I ended up nursing that baby until she was 3.5 and I was pregnant with her second brother. I weaned my second when I got pregnant with Pending. So I am very good at nursing (and very bad at weaning).

 

Women have _always_ sought to avoid breast-feeding, because for a lot of women, breast-feeding is hard and unpleasant. I think we should be thinking more carefully about how much intervention is warranted for what is, after all, not a huge marginal benefit.

[PeacefulChaos]

And the bolded is the whole point. You didn't know that. WHY didn't you know that? Because no one told you. What they are talking about in new york is to make sure women DO know, that they ARE told. How can they make an informed decision without all the information? Women are dying of breast cancer, and breastfeeding reduces breast cancer risk. It is particularly effective in women that have breastcancer in their families...it can reduce the risk by almost 60%. But if you tell a woman that you are brow beating her? You say you didn't now something about breastfeeding that is important to know, then say that you didn't breastfeed because people were trying to tell you things about it. ????

 

Yeah, I was thinking about my responses and I think I overreacted.

FTR, I did know - but the information was not presented to me in an effective manner. It's all in the delivery.

I think that because of my personal experiences, I read too much into what the 'talking to' would entail. I pictured what I experienced, but that most likely would not be the case most places - at least, it shouldn't be. And I highly doubt that it is.

I do believe that women should have the information so that they can make the decision on their own. I don't think the doctors should have any say in the final decision, and I don't know if it was true or hearsay or blowing things out of proportion that I saw somewhere earlier that said they would only offer it for 'women who couldn't for medical reasons' - I think that part may be overstepping.

So I guess I am for the women having the information presented to them in a non-biased, matter of fact way. There would be a very delicate balance there, and the people talking about it would have to be very mindful of how their wording comes across. They shouldn't be trying to influence a woman one way or another. I think it is possible.

[mommaduck]

I birth in a hospital with these regulations.

 

It is both shaming and a complete pain in the tuchis. The PITA part is because the nursing staff isn't about to ferry formula back and forth, so every time one needs formula, one has to truck down to the desk, get the one (1) bottle, and truck it back. Babies eat a lot, and I had had a c-section.

 

This was despite the fact that I was using formula on the ped's recommendation because baby had jaundice.

 

Since you can't get any free stuff, you . . . don't get any free stuff. Which, again, is kind of a PITA. You can't leave Baby to head down to Wal Mart and pick up supplies. And even the gift shop isn't allowed to sell anything that might contribute to poor breastfeeding, such as (gasp!) pacifiers. Again, good bloody luck if the pediatrician wants your Noob to suck a pacifier because he's small and needs to practice suckling.

 

I ended up nursing that baby until she was 3.5 and I was pregnant with her second brother. I weaned my second when I got pregnant with Pending. So I am very good at nursing (and very bad at weaning).

 

Women have _always_ sought to avoid breast-feeding, because for a lot of women, breast-feeding is hard and unpleasant. I think we should be thinking more carefully about how much intervention is warranted for what is, after all, not a huge marginal benefit.

There are so many pediatricians that need to go back to school to be re-educated that it's not even funny. :glare:

 

I'm good at nursing and bad at weaning also :D I've never heard of anywhere that would shame you over FF though. I've always experienced the opposite problem of too many people that don't know enough about nursing or able to encourage nursing. I met ONE lactation consultant that I absolutely loved.

Edited July 31, 2012 by mommaduck

[ktgrok]

There are so many pediatricians that need to go back to school to be re-educated that it's not even funny. :glare:

 

wasn't even going to go there, but yeah..

[NASDAQ]

:confused: My pediatrician was excellent, thanks. Supplementing with formula is an approved method of treatment for jaundice in some situations, mine included. Thanks for your concern though.

 

ETA: No one ever shamed me for formula feeding after leaving the hospital, possibly because I never had to do it outside of the hospital. But having to walk down to a front desk to get a single bottle of formula because "we're encouraging breastfeeding," and doing that every two hours, is shaming. No one ever tried to shame me for nursing huge children in public either, FWIW.

Edited July 31, 2012 by NASDAQ

[Scrub Jay]

wasn't even going to go there, but yeah..

 

Yeah. I guess the "stupid" pediatrician I posted about in my post does get kudos because she was all about the breast when DD was jaundice at birth.

[bolt.]

Why shouldn't a health professional be trying to influence to make healthful choices by presenting accurate information in an infulential way?

 

Can you seriously say this about other lifestyle / health issues: "You know, I'm not trying to influence you. As a person with diabetes, you are free to choose doughnuts or celery, whatever you like. Now I'm going to list all the reasons the doughnut diet is likely to compromise your health and well-being, but keep in mind, I'm not trying to influence you or anything like that!"

 

I mean this as: encourage, not brow-beat, and certainly not mandate, not 'a say in the final decision': just *influence* -- It's weird to know something is healthy and just pretend that you don't want people to make the most healthful choice that's available to them. That's why formula has to say on the can that it's not as healthy as breast-milk, and there's no reason other people shouldn't be saying it too. The information is inherently biased. Recommending breastfeeding when possible is the responsible and honest thing for nurses and doctors to do.

 

Perhaps it's fair to only *offer* formula for medical reasons, but not prevent people from bringing with them a product that they might choose to use for a non-medical preference. Why would a hospital be responsible to provide something that is not a medical supply? (I do consider 'baby's not nursing well, and clearly hungry' to be a medical reason -- I don't think 'medical reason' means 'diagnosed condition'.)

[mommaduck]

Yeah, I was thinking about my responses and I think I overreacted.

FTR, I did know - but the information was not presented to me in an effective manner. It's all in the delivery.

I think that because of my personal experiences, I read too much into what the 'talking to' would entail. I pictured what I experienced, but that most likely would not be the case most places - at least, it shouldn't be. And I highly doubt that it is.

I do believe that women should have the information so that they can make the decision on their own. I don't think the doctors should have any say in the final decision, and I don't know if it was true or hearsay or blowing things out of proportion that I saw somewhere earlier that said they would only offer it for 'women who couldn't for medical reasons' - I think that part may be overstepping.

So I guess I am for the women having the information presented to them in a non-biased, matter of fact way. There would be a very delicate balance there, and the people talking about it would have to be very mindful of how their wording comes across. They shouldn't be trying to influence a woman one way or another. I think it is possible.

 

I know that many nurses have a certain personality type (yes, there are those that are absolutely lovely also). These particular types can be bossy, know it all, aggressive, and, yes, they can make you feel like cr@p. So, yes, the delivery can make a huge difference.

Edited July 31, 2012 by mommaduck

[mommaduck]

Yeah. I guess the "stupid" pediatrician I posted about in my post does get kudos because she was all about the breast when DD was jaundice at birth.

I only saw that your ped made a stupid assumption about weight gain (I also had a ped make a stupid comment about my first child's weight gain...fully breastfed, but she claimed he was obese and not going to walk until he was two. 10mos, 30lbs, exclusively breastfed at that point, walked that week, is now nearly grown, tall, and lean...it was genetics and our genetics are extremely different than her genetics. She ended up being a good ped for my SIL who had a child that all the other peds kept claiming was drastically underweight and wanted to run tests, etc. Ironically, where she didn't recognise that it was a genetic "he'll stop growing out and start growing up" issue with my son, she did recognise that it was a genetic "normal" range for my SIL's ethnicity. SIL is half Filipino and Ped was East Indian).

 

MANY children are jaundiced at birth. Breastfeeding should be continued to be encouraged, time in the sun (near a window, etc), extreme cases are usually handled with bili lights. Most of mine were jaundiced at birth, one was placed under bili lights.

Edited July 31, 2012 by mommaduck

[Scrub Jay]

I only saw that your ped made a stupid assumption about weight gain (I also had a ped make a stupid comment about my first child's weight gain...fully breastfed, but she claimed he was obese and not going to walk until he was two. 10mos, 30lbs, exclusively breastfed at that point, walked that week, is now nearly grown, tall, and lean).

 

MANY children are jaundiced at birth. Breastfeeding should be continued to be encouraged, time in the sun (near a window, etc), extreme cases are usually handled with bili lights. Most of mine were jaundiced at birth, one was placed under bili lights.

 

She said a few other bf ignorant things as well (that I am blanking on since it's been nearly 7 years - one did involve her assumption I would ff because I was going to work full time. Um, no, not once). Luckily I was well read and educated regarding breastfeeding and am also a decently confident person, so I just ignored her.

 

Isn't skin to skin contact good for jaundice, too, or am I remembering that wrong? I need to refresh my memory on this stuff - #2 is finally due this December.

[justLisa]

wasn't even going to go there, but yeah..

 

Yeah, and not to mention many OBs don't prepare you AT ALL. I was clueless. I had a mother who birthed at a Catholic hospital that did not even administer epidurals. She was just lilke "you go push the baby out, then go home la la la." Yeah, quite a bit different now adays. I ended up with a c-sec because I did not know what my body was intended to do.

 

Second time around I had a wonderful midwife and a VBAC. And a great ped though that one took some searching. He's an old school solo practice and he likes stubborn moms like me :D

[Scrub Jay]

Just wanted to add that having a doula is fantastic to start off the breastfeeding relationship. My dd was nursing less than 5 minutes after being born and I owe that to my doula since I was in such a fog. (Silly me stayed up until midnight, went to bed, and my water broke 5 minutes later! Yawn!)

[mommaduck]

She said a few other bf ignorant things as well (that I am blanking on since it's been nearly 7 years - one did involve her assumption I would ff because I was going to work full time. Um, no, not once). Luckily I was well read and educated regarding breastfeeding and am also a decently confident person, so I just ignored her.

 

Isn't skin to skin contact good for jaundice, too, or am I remembering that wrong? I need to refresh my memory on this stuff - #2 is finally due this December.

I don't remember if that was mentioned to me or not. Skin to skin was just a norm for me. In all places except one hospital, I was permitted to cosleep with my baby. If I got really tired, I would place them in the baby bed and then nap, but most of the time they were in bed with me. (now THAT's an issue that is definitely a person by person thing :))

[Shawna in Texas]

I gave birth to my oldest 14 years ago in a birthing center in Austin, TX. Breastfeeding was assumed. My only real complaint, is the assumption that it's easy. Because it was so *easy*, I had a pretty horrible time with my first because while everything worked with a lactation consultant, it never went smoothly at home. I spent months crying at the breast pump because I felt like a failure. I wanted to nurse, not because I'd been brainwashed with the evils of formula (well, formula companies), but because I felt a great instinct to do it. And it was rough to have a screaming starving baby and just having to give up because I didn't know what to do.

 

I can't remember when I started with the formula, but I wished I'd had the internet back then, because it was the single deciding factor in me being able to nurse my youngest successfully. She was only marginally better at nursing than her big sister, but the day my milk came in was a pretty emotional day for me, but we persevered and became old pros. I helped my sister and my cousin get through the first hurdles, so it makes me think that it isn't an uncommon problem.

 

I would hope that the nursing staff would be appropriately trained and have plenty of lactation consultants doing the rounds. It's one thing to say you have to nurse because that's the best thing, but another if you aren't taught. I'm betting many women think they had to use formula because they weren't coached through the nursing process and thought that something must be wrong. I remember several people saying that they had to give their baby a bottle because they weren't producing milk the day of the birth.

[Abigail4476]

It isn't about the government denying women access to formula, for Pete's sake. It's about hospitals choosing to encourage breastfeeding and not provide free formula unless its actually necessary. Presumably mothers who have their babies in such a hospital and choose to formula-feed could buy their own formula for that purpose, or if they are low-income, I'm sure they would still have access. This is about what the hospital provides; not what the government provides.

 

If this is true:

 

"Under the city Health Department’s voluntary Latch On NYC initiative, 27 of the city’s 40 hospitals have also agreed to give up swag bags sporting formula-company logos, toss out formula-branded tchotchkes like lanyards and mugs, and document a medical reason for every bottle that a newborn receives."

 

Then I'm ALL for it.

 

This doesn't take choice away from mothers; mothers still have access to formula. Grocery store anyone? It simply changes what hospitals recommend and promote with new mothers and they are going to push breastfeeding instead of formula. It's about time! I'm sure a lot more new mothers would have breastfed if they had been properly coached and encouraged.

 

What an idiotic, incendiary article from Fox News/NYP. :glare: It's a fantastic idea for hospitals to encourage breastfeeding and stop pushing baby formula.

 

CBSNews has a less offensive take on the whole thing:

 

"...mothers who insist on bottle-feeding will still be able to do so, but nurses would have to sign out the baby formula, which would always be on hand for mothers who have difficulty breast-feeding.

 

The Post reports that 27 of the city's 40 hospitals have also agreed to eliminate gift bag giveaways of infant formula and other free items like lanyards or mugs with formula-company logos....

 

The Alliance's executive director says keeping baby formula under lock and key, like medicines are kept, helps prevent hospital staffers from reaching for a bottle first, instead of encouraging new mothers to nurse their babies.

 

...At NYU Langone Medical Center, breast-feeding rates have surged from 39 percent of new moms to 68 percent since the program was implemented, the Post reported.

 

Earlier this month, Massachusetts health officials announced they would eliminate free giveaways of infant formula at the state's 49 hospitals beginning at the end of July to promote breast-feeding."

 

Can someone please contact Fox News and the NYP and let them know that this is a voluntary program on the part of hospitals and that the government isn't FORCING anyone to withhold formula from new mothers and babies? Also, they might want to add to their fact list the idea that mothers can still purchase formula from the store and give it to their infants.

[mommaduck]

btw, I want to clarify that I'm not entirely against FF. I realise that there are times where it can be a life saver. I had to supplement with Meg at the beginning, because there was a stomach issue with her and it helped till our nursing was on track (never had this problem with any of the others). I did supplement with oldest daughter at seven months due to her biting so hard as to take chunks of flesh, I would get infected, and it was three days FF, one or two days BF, bite, three days FF, and round and round we went for two months when I finally weaned her. Cousin also had to supplement, but she BF's as much as she can when she is home and G'ma FF when she is gone.

 

My issue is with the lack of support and nurses that feel it's too much effort and time on their part to help a mother troubleshoot or encourage her. One friend called me into the NICU for a consult. I helped her with latching and all. I also encouraged her to pump for the tube they had in her child. The nurse was pretty nasty, heard what was going on, came over and made sure her presence was known while she interrupted our session to put a tube of formula in the baby. I'm smart enough to know not to go toe to toe with an RN on her turf though and encouraged my friend as able. She felt bullied by the RN though and she's the type that would rather fall over rather than deal with a confrontation, particularly when she's already dealing with an emotional situation.

 

Basically, I'm against bullying regardless of which side a person is on. I am for educating, encouraging, and assisting in making breastfeeding more successful.