Middle school math...spy car?

[happycc]

Want to talk about Middle School Math

 

I have in my head I am going to torture my kids with SM up to level 6, Key to Series, Right Start for as long as I can stand it for one of my kids, MEP 6, BA series and that CMPT (new one I saw recently,

 

And then what?

 

Spy Car, Bill, what are you planning to use for 7, 8 grades? Do they need 7 and 8th grades or could they jump right into PreAlge AoP and then the Algebra series from SM6?

 

Also how close does AoP curriculum follow CA standards? Anyone know?

[boscopup]

When I emailed AoPS, RR himself emailed back and suggested doing AoPS prealgebra after Singapore 5B. If you do that and the kid struggles, you can bump back down to Singapore 6 (he said this in regards to my question about young children).

[wapiti]

Not Bill, but my dd used AoPS Pre-alg. It was written for top math students to follow 5th grade math. After SM6, I'd imagine that the student would be nicely prepared. Whether it would be a fit in other ways, I can't guess.

My understanding is that CA standards aim for algebra in 8th grade. I don't think I've ever seen a discussion of AoPS in relation to CA standards, and I'd guess that the standards are not of particular importance to the AoPS folks. That might be a question to ask them by email. I will say that it is more deep than broad, and a few random topics covered in the prealgebra texts of major publishers were omitted (they are no big deal as far as I'm concerned).

Edited March 26, 2015 by wapiti

[Spy Car]

Want to talk about Middle School Math

 

I have in my head I am going to torture my kids with SM up to level 6, Key to Series, Right Start for as long as I can stand it for one of my kids, MEP 6, BA series and that CMPT (new one I saw recently,

 

And then what?

 

Spy Car, Bill, what are you planning to use for 7, 8 grades? Do they need 7 and 8th grades or could they jump right into PreAlge AoP and then the Algebra series from SM6?

 

Also how close does AoP curriculum follow CA standards? Anyone know?

 

Since my son is still 7 (barely) :D my plans are somewhat open to change, and I look to advice from people like Jane (in NC) and Kathy (in Richmond), as well as the two fine ladies who have chimed in in this thread.

 

My son (a rising Third Grader) will start Singapore 4 soon, and will continue with any Beast Academy that is released (we've finished 3A and are half-way done with 3B). He loves the AoPS style.

 

My plan was to finish either Primary Math level 5 or 6 and then to possibly do a "bridge" using something like Mathematics 6 (aka Russian Math 6). However, I have been doing AoPS Prealgebra myself, and have also been doing selected topics in AoPS PA with my son as follow-ups to topics in Beast Academy. He has really taken to AoPS. I don't want (or need) to rush this, but it is complicating my sense of "long-range" planning.

 

Whatever we do I think AoPS will be a big part of our program. One good thing is if we start somewhat earlier than expected we could hopefully do the discrete math books without feeling pressured.

 

One factor I can't fully account for is how Middle and High School will be time-wise when it comes to after-schooling. Homework can get brutal from what I understand. Getting a little ahead now I suspect may creat some much needed play in the schedule.

 

I do not know about AoPS and the CA standards. I would assume AoPS well passes the CA standards, but I do not know this for a fact.

 

I'm really enjoying their Prealgebra book.

 

Bill

Edited June 5, 2012 by Spy Car

[boscopup]

I'm really enjoying their Prealgebra book.

 

:iagree: I'm halfway through chapter 3 and really loving it. I get all excited when I figure something out based on the tidbit they've presented. I hope my son loves it as much as I do! :D

[NittanyJen]

I have two kids, and our picture is more complicated.

 

DS11 is using primarily Life of Fred for higher math, and is doing extremely well with it (he has completed fractions, decimals and Percents, preA with Biology, and PreA with Economics, and is now in Algebra 1/Beginning Algebra). He did briefly try AoPS for about six months, and got nothing from it that he had not already learned in Fred (and several strategies from Penrose the Mathematical Cat, back in fourth grade), and he really hated the approach, so we dropped it. He does self-educate in Khan Academy to explore geometry, trig, and early calc concepts plus practice what he has learned in the past, but 90% of his math time is now LoF.

 

DS8 is going to be a tough call. I started him in Singapore Math at the 2A level a year ago and he is now halfway through 4A, so I am starting to think about what happens in another year-18 months when he finishes 5B. He already loves Fred (elementary series) but is clearly thriving with Singapore, and I am not sure I see a great reason to fix what isn't broken. I also ddn't sell the AoPS preA stuff yet, so I cannot rule out giving him a whack at that-- and I have good old Dolciani. This one also loves to explore on his own in Khan Academy, currently going back again and again to geometry and algebra topics.

 

So... What choices does a math professor house line up for middle school math, and see success with a blend of gifted and 2E kids (because every family is different)?

 

-Life of Fred makes a very solid primary or only program for kids that 'get it.'

-Singapore DM or NEM for kids who already thrive on Singapore

-Dolciani for a traditional look

-Khan Academy serves as a great add-on to any math program

 

I can't list AoPS for now, since it was a huge bust for us, and not because of difficulty; everything in it had already been covered in Fred and Penrose. I don't think it's a bad program at all; it was just not a good fit for my kid, and with another excellent choice already in use, what's the point in making a kid who enjoys math hate it?

 

There is no one magic program that is right for everyone. You just have to find a solid one that works well with your kid. Any of the programs listed above is solid if worked with properly, and that is by no means a definitive list; there are other good choices as well.

[Spy Car]

:iagree: I'm halfway through chapter 3 and really loving it. I get all excited when I figure something out based on the tidbit they've presented. I hope my son loves it as much as I do! :D

 

Have you tried doing any with your son? Mine has really enjoyed the chapter on "angles" (Chapter 10).

 

Bill

[crazyforlatin]

When I emailed AoPS, RR himself emailed back and suggested doing AoPS prealgebra after Singapore 5B. If you do that and the kid struggles, you can bump back down to Singapore 6 (he said this in regards to my question about young children).

 

Did you frame his email? He's like a superstar in our geeky world. :D.

[happycc]

I am looking at the AOPS prealgebra and there isn't anything new about this textbook. Maybe it is because I have taken three kids through prealgebra already through their public school textbooks and the oldest is in Geometry now. I have already introduced a lot of this to my younger set of ten years old already. They are going to look at me and say "What! You taught this already!" But it will be good review I suppose. I already taught them square roots and exponents for fun last year.

 

Math is relatively easy for me as I loved Discrete Math and Calculus or maybe because I had superb college teachers. It is like a bunch of puzzes and games.

Upper grade math is so much more fun than lower grades--memorizing facts...blah! Although I am loving learning the Asian way for math. Singapore is just a totally different way of learning math than I learned. Kind of neat. Paradigm shift.

 

PS I do not like the way SM HIGs are written. Be great if they were scripted a bit more. My head is spinning go between the HIG and the textbook and reading it the HIG.

Edited June 8, 2012 by happycc

[Spy Car]

I am looking at the AOPS prealgebra and there isn't anything new about this textbook. Maybe it is because I have taken three kids through prealgebra already through their public school textbooks and the oldest is in Geometry now. I have already introduced a lot of this to my younger set of ten years old already. They are going to look at me and say "What! You taught this already!" But it will be good review I suppose. I already taught them square roots and exponents for fun last year.

 

Math is relatively easy for me as I loved Discrete Math and Calculus or maybe because I had superb college teachers. It is like a bunch of puzzes and games.

Upper grade math is so much more fun than lower grades--memorizing facts...blah! Although I am loving learning the Asian way for math. Singapore is just a totally different way of learning math than I learned. Kind of neat. Paradigm shift.

 

AoPS has two books on Discrete Math (Number Theory and Counting & Statistics IMS). Sooner or later you'll have to find something you haven't taught them yet :D

 

Sounds like your children are getting a tremendous opportunity having you for a teacher!

 

Bill

[HootyTooty]

Just wanted to throw out here that singaporemath.com is reporting that they are coming out with a Discovering Mathematics Common Core Standards Series for both 7th and 8th grade.

 

http://www.singaporemath.com/Secondary_math_s/22.htm

 

Changes to our secondary level mathematics series:

 

Discovering Mathematics Common Core Standards Series for Grade 7 will be available in August 2012.

Discovering Mathematics Common Core Standards Series for Grade 8 will be available in late 2012.

 

New Syllabus Mathematics will be discontinued when items are out of stock.

New Elementary Mathematics levels 3 and 4 will be discontinued when items are out of stock. We will continue to carry New Elementary Mathematics levels 1 and 2.

[stripe]

I am fascinated whenever I see a thread asking for math advice that just asks Spycar instead of just asking the question. It is very .... interesting.

[Crimson Wife]

My understanding is that CA standards aim for prealgebra in 8th grade. I don't think I've ever seen a discussion of AoPS in relation to CA standards, and I'd guess that the standards are not of particular importance to the AoPS folks.

 

California has actually mandated Algebra 1 in 8th grade, so pre-algebra would be 7th.

 

I'm pretty sure that the AOPS online classes are UC a-g approved, but I'm not sure if using the textbook independently would be okay. My kids are not yet to the point where I need to be worrying about that, so I'm just going off of what I've heard from other HSers I know IRL.

[wapiti]

California has actually mandated Algebra 1 in 8th grade, so pre-algebra would be 7th.

 

Sorry, that's what I meant to say :tongue_smilie:. I'll go fix my post.

[wapiti]

I am looking at the AOPS prealgebra and there isn't anything new about this textbook. Maybe it is because I have taken three kids through prealgebra already through their public school textbooks and the oldest is in Geometry now. I have already introduced a lot of this to my younger set of ten years old already. They are going to look at me and say "What! You taught this already!" But it will be good review I suppose. I already taught them square roots and exponents for fun last year.

 

 

It is certainly not unheard-of for very good math students to go from SM 6B to algebra. So, if the material would only be review, that might be an option.

FWIW, I think the post-tests to the classes (prealgebra 1 and 2) together are more complete than the post-test for the book (which is very similar to the post test for 1).

 

For me, what seems so different (from most traditional texts) is the perspective. There is something I can't quite put my finger on about looking at a problem in a big-picture sort of way. I didn't see math that way before, and while this may be my own learning style issue, the AoPS way seems much more efficient and makes much more sense than however I was taught 30 yrs ago.

[Nart]

In California in 2011, according to the STAR reporting database, 59 percent of 8th graders took Algebra, 31.8 percent took General Math, and 5.4 percent of students took Geometry (so they took Alg. in 7th). The rest of the students didn't test or took a modified exam because they are in special ed.)

Of the students taking Alg. in 8th grade only 47% scored proficient or advanced on the STAR.

[happycc]

on algebra? Were they not prepared enough in terms of.... have the lower grades math caught up with the expectations of eighth graders taking and passing algebra. That is what happened to my oldest ds. He was doing pretty well with math at grade level and thought he was going to take seventh grade math and 8th grade math ----then suddenly poof expected to take algebra in 8th. It caught him by a whirlwind and poor kid had to take algebra it felt like three times.

 

With this second set of kids...I am introducting them to square roots/exponents in fourth grade, hands on algebra in fourth grade and considering Key to algebra in 5/6 th grade to get them ready to pass algebra in 8th grade. Many kids need several exposures to algebra before they get it -especially if they are requiring it taken sooner.

 

Is there some kind of developmental lag possibility? Does algebra require a certain kind of brain development in order to be truly understood?

 

In general in order for kids to now take and pass algebra by 8th grade, they really need to know their early math down pat before 5th grade (known math facts by heart by 2nd and 3rd grade) and mastering adding/subtracting/multiplying/dividing fractions and decimals around fourth grade. 5th grade percents, exponents and square roots, measurements, graphing and perimeter/area/volume. 6th grade a review of all concepts and then prealgebra by 7th grade so they can be ready for 8th grade algebra.

 

UGH! I guess I need to step up the pace even more.

[happycc]

Stripe: I have been on this list way way before it even got switched over to this board and I remember Spy car from way back when as he was the I think the only dad posting at the time. Just how many dads are on this board I wonder?

 

Spy Car, were you posting even before your baby was born?

 

I was reading his posts for as long as I can remember and he has interesting points of views. He has recently helped me greatly in my math curriculum for the lower grades and my younger daughters are thriving. I respect his opinions and his thoughts as well as his research.

 

My oldest is now 17yrs old and I homeschooled him from the start when we were the only secular people homeschooling in my city/area. TWTM was and has been my Bible. And the original forum was my life. I did become a Christian eventually just so my kids had some friends to play with as I found a church with many homeschoolers at the time.

It is nothing personal to anyone else and I have gotten many many great advice from others.

[stripe]

I have no problem with people wanting Spy Car's advice. But there are people on here with advanced math degrees who have educated their children through high school, whose advice I think should be sought out at least as much. Someone who has actually taught middle school math might have more concrete advice. I certainly don't have much to say because my children are not that old.

 

(As an aside, members obviously can do what they want, but I think if someone only wants one person's advice, s/he should consider using private messages or emails, or at least it makes me, for one, feel disinclined to post. I wonder if others don't feel the same way.)

[happycc]

I was only saying his name to catch his attention as I also know that he lives in CA. I wanted and welcomed other inputs as well. It wasn;t meant to be directly for him but just a call out there in the forum world kind of....I figured if no one else answered the post I know at least one person would.

 

I suppose I could have made this a PM but I think a lot of people might be able to benefit from such a banter/ thread as middle school might be around the corner for them but they weren;t read to jump to the middle school forum yet.

 

So let's get back to Middle School math......

any advanced math professors out there who have taught/homeschooled middle school math in California?

 

By the way, my charter school will no longer fund for Life of Fred.

[regentrude]

In general in order for kids to now take and pass algebra by 8th grade, they really need to know their early math down pat before 5th grade (known math facts by heart by 2nd and 3rd grade) and mastering adding/subtracting/multiplying/dividing fractions and decimals around fourth grade. 5th grade percents, exponents and square roots, measurements, graphing and perimeter/area/volume. 6th grade a review of all concepts and then prealgebra by 7th grade so they can be ready for 8th grade algebra.

 

Do not panic - that is absolutely not necessary.

A student who is taught to mastery does not need to spend three years on pre-algebra skills after mastering arithmetic with integers by the end of 4th grade. Prealgebra is arithmetic with fractions and percent. A student who is proficient in 4th grade math and taught well may be able to learn all these things in one year. Stretching this out and doing it over and over again does not create success and students excited about math - it creates students who are so turned off math that they hate it before they even get to anything beyond arithmetic (which is when math actually starts).

 

The problem is with the compartmentalizing. I come from a country where there is just "math" - no "algebra", "prealgebra". Students are taught fractions during 5th grade. They are introduced to the simpler concepts early and to the harder concepts later - so for example, triangle congruency and simple geometric formal proofs are taught in 6th grade, linear equations in 7th, quadratics in 9th.

The problem with the math sequence in the US is waiting until the students are mature enough for the harder algebra concepts and putting them on hold by spinning them through fraction reviews for three long years.

 

So no, you do not need three years after integer arithmetic to get your student ready for algebra - IF he is taught by a teacher who is proficient himself and can actually teach concepts, not just have the student memorize algorithms (another big problem with math teaching in this country)

[Guest]

I was only saying his name to catch his attention as I also know that he lives in CA. I wanted and welcomed other inputs as well. It wasn;t meant to be directly for him but just a call out there in the forum world kind of....I figured if no one else answered the post I know at least one person would.

 

The title of your thread never gave me the impression that you were only looking for Spy Car's (Bill's) input :). For what it is worth, others have also titled threads in a similar fashion in the past. I have never seen others avoid posting because of it.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Guest

[boscopup]

The title of your thread never gave me the impression that you were only looking for Spy Car's (Bill's) input :). For what it is worth, others have also titled threads in a similar fashion in the past. I have never seen others avoid posting because of it.

 

I too assumed she wanted all opinions, but was also trying to make sure spycar saw it and gave his input, since he researches math to death.

 

Doesn't bother me any, though it embarrasses me if it's my name in the title. :tongue_smilie:

[Guest]

I too assumed she wanted all opinions, but was also trying to make sure spycar saw it and gave his input, since he researches math to death.

 

I stalk Bill's posts also ;)!

 

Doesn't bother me any, though it embarrasses me if it's my name in the title. :tongue_smilie:

 

:iagree: That would be me also. Bill is just used to it by now, I guess :lol:!

[Violet Crown]

I'm not Bill, nor Spartacus, but we did get Great Girl through middle school math and into college as a math major in the honors program. We used Key To... through the end of elementary school, then a combination of the Barron's 'Easy Way' books, math competition materials, AoPS (the old 2-volume one), and Alcumus in its beta-testing days. All that will be easier with Middle Girl thanks to the AoPS textbooks.

 

Middle school is a good time to start looking at doing math competitions. Math Counts, Math Olympiad. Is there a homeschool team in your area? Many people find this book useful, even if they don't end up competing.

[happycc]

For your advice on math competitions and look into them. I feel better now with my Key To books curriculum too.

 

I will keep pursuing....

[besroma]

:lurk5: Thanks for the added information.

[happycc]

So you are saying I can go ahead and start the 10yrs old/4th graders on the Art of Problem Solving Pre algebra .If so yee hah! I can continue to use the Singapore /Mep/Key to for review or whatever?

[wapiti]

So you are saying I can go ahead and start the 10yrs old/4th graders on the Art of Problem Solving Pre algebra .If so yee hah! I can continue to use the Singapore /Mep/Key to for review or whatever?

Not Regentrude; I'm sure she'll come around later to answer. I'm guessing that's not quite what she meant. In the meantime, I'll give my opinion - maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are asking - I admit I can't remember where your students are at in math and whether they have already had significant instruction on these topics. I totally agree that middle school math does not need to be strung out over so many years, and some kids can cover those topics in a much more compact form.

 

However, AoPS Prealgebra is not a basic, traditional prealgebra. Personally, I would not start AoPS Prealgebra without pretty good mastery of these basic topics (fractions, decimals, percents, integers). I would not use AoPS Prealgebra to teach those topics and it was not written to be used that way - other prealgebras might have more review than AoPS, which sometimes feels like it's starting out with review and then dives to surprising depths.

 

First, see the pre-test. The pre-test is notoriously easy compared to the book. It's looking at the issue from a bare-bones angle, what math skills are absolutely necessary to start.

 

Second, figuring out whether it will be a good fit with a younger student is an even less straightforward question than for a 6th grader.   My bottom-line opinion is that it can't hurt to try it out if you have accelerated students who have the prerequisite math skills. I have a great love for the book and want to spread the news far and wide. However, I wouldn't use AoPS as the initial introduction to 5th grade math topics.

[Violet Crown]

Agreeing with wapiti. Middle Girl started AoPS Prealgebra, Algebra, Geometry, and Counting concurrently last year, after completing all the Key To series, including algebra and geometry. She still finds AoPS a challenge.

 

Btw, you can use Alcumus for AoPS review questions by setting the topic to whatever you want to review.

[happycc]

AoPS four textbooks in one year all at the same time?

 

I am trying to wrap my head around that.

 

I am looking through the prealge stuff for AoPS some more. I wasnt planning to hand the textbooks to the soon to be 5th graders. I was planning to go through it on the white board and read it out loud to them.

 

I am noticing it doesnt show graphing coordinate plan and finding slope and such. I thought that was prealgebra. Here in california they had to do coordinate graphing solving for equalities or whatever it is called for 4th grade standards-Star Testing. I don;t have a California standard textbook so I have been trying to piecemeal the teaching through online stuff and whatever. I learned this in prealgebra I remember in 7th or 8th grade.

 

Anyone know of a good book to teach that?

 

I looked for it in our Saxon 54 second edition and it wasn't in there. Not in Teaching Textbook 5 and not in BJU 5 either. Not in Mathsteps 5 either. I tried going to Half Price books to find a California Edition textbook teaching that but they only had the younger grades.

 

My daughters took the Developmental Math test yesterday. One scored 6th grade level and the other scored 7th grade. Does anyone know much about that test?

[Crimson Wife]

What about Key to Algebra Book 8? That is very inexpensive and covers those topics.

[happycc]

I think we will get that....

 

My kids hate Key to though...hee hee. I still torture them with it.

 

What do you all think about the Kinetic Books program for homeschoolers?

[Violet Crown]

AoPS four textbooks in one year all at the same time?

 

 

 

Not all in one year; just done concurrently. They're paced differently. Dh does geometry and/or counting in the mornings before leaving for work; I do algebra in the afternoon; and the prealgebra is mostly for fun and going a little deeper. That last AoPS will be wrapped up soon.

 

I spent three years in the UK school system, which was long enough to be disabused of the idea that it makes sense to do only one area of math(s) at a time for a year before learning anything in a different area.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Sharon in Austin