Defiant 5 year old DS

[cseitter]

Up until now I tried to think it was just a boy thing. But his t-ball coach and I talked after his practice today and now I am thinking differently.

 

My DS is 5 (turned 5 in Nov and has a twin sister). He is very defiant and will do exactly what you tell him not to. I can't leave him in a room without him getting into something. I went outside just now and left him in the house when I came back in he had an entire glass of Hershey's syrup and was eating it with a spoon. He is very stubborn and doesn't want to do anything you ask unless it benefits him. You can see him thinking when you ask him to do something whether it would be better to take the consequence so that he can keep doing whatever he is doing.

 

If you ask him to put down his bat (as in T-ball today) he will freak out and have a meltdown. With crying, whining the whole 9. If he wants to do it he is good as gold.

 

Transitioning is horrible. If we have to leave to go somewhere and he doesn't expect it he will melt. Seperating him from his sister and he will melt and worry himself to death. Moving from one activity to another and he will melt.

 

Totally addicted to TV and games. I have had him on "detox" where he can not watch any tv or play any games during the day and very limited in the evening if at all. He seems to be doing better with it but if I let him watch or play even just a little more and that is all I hear and he cries and begs for.

 

He is a a very sweet kid. His probably the most inherently smart child I have. I just don't know how to get him to listen and do what he is asked. Time-outs don't work at all they actually make him worse.

 

Does anyone have something similar with their child? Any advice? I know he is a young 5 and boys mature slower than girls but compared to the other homeschool boys on his t-ball team ages 4 and 5 he is much worse.

[Chris in VA]

Is he on the spectrum at all? My aspie had a hard time "changing sets," which was therapy speak for transitioning. I gave plenty of warning, talked about feelings a ton, and set expectations before the activity. We even told stories at night before bed where a little bear (they called him Carrot Bear, for some reason! lol) would experience just what my little one was going to experience, and talked about his reaction and that sort of thing.

 

I'm sorry it's so hard right now.

[ktgrok]

does he want to try to "reason" everything out, and want to know "why" for every rule, etc? Smart plus delayed social skills CAN be aspergers...or could be ADHD with trouble understanding action and consequence.

[cseitter]

My oldest DS is ADD and was diagnosed really early (he started hurting himself) and I am ADD as well. I am not sure if he is an Aspie as I have no experience with that. It is possible that he is ADD though. I made an appt with his Ped for next week and will discuss it there with her. I just wanted some insight from others. :)

 

After reading the symptoms of Aspergers I don't think that is it. he has some fine motor trouble but had an eval done and he is normal. He is in speech therapy but does well if she can get him to cooperate. We have to use ALOT of positive reinforcement to get him to cooperate. He likes to know what he is going to get if he does something or how many pages or things he has to do before he is done. He has alot of empathy and really cares about others. He likes to play with other boys and makes sure he talks to everyone. His drawback is his speech and maturity. he told a girl today that she had a nice shot (she hit the ball). She didn't get it until a couple times he said it.

Edited March 14, 2012 by cseitter

[cseitter]

I read my last post and it seemed kinda short and know it all ish. I'm sorry if I came across that way today has been a pretty stressful day.

[Chris in VA]

I don't think you came across that way at all.

I know it may seem I just jump on the Aspie train at every opportunity--sorry if I upset you at all. I just noticed some similarities.

Keep digging--it's not easy.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Chris in VA

[nova147]

You said he's smart - gifted kids sometimes have "overexcitabilities". DS7 has emotional control issues that sound like your son. Perhaps the defiance is relayed? Something else to google!

[cseitter]

Oh he is smart alright. The kid is teaching himself to read. I sit down with him to do his reading lesson (phonics for 15 mins which we just started because he was crying that he couldn't read the books he was looking at) and he squirms and cries that he doesn't want to do the lesson and he "can't". Then I tell him he gets a treat at the end of the lesson (they are able to play starfall and get a sweet at the end) he perks up and reads every word on the page like I am an idiot for trying to sound them out for him. :glare:

 

The I "can't" I get ALOT! he says it about just about anything he doesn't want to do. Drives me crazy.

[SKL]

My dd5 is also oppositional / defiant like that. She cannot stand it if someone decides something on her behalf. She doesn't throw fits, but she will pout and grump and procrastinate in protest. I give her as many choices as are reasonable for her age, but that does not make her any more compliant for those times when she doesn't get to choose. Ugh! It can wear a mom down! But I've decided that her behavior is calculated to get me upset - her way of controlling me, I guess - so I try to remind myself and tell her that I'm not going to let her upset me. And I am not letting her try to talk me into or out of things (she can be quite a manipulator and rationalizer). We recently went through a couple of tough days, but then things got better (she actually told me she was being responsive because she wanted access to her DS). We'll see how long this lasts.

 

Good luck to you! I know how much this can weigh one down.

[MidwesternMom]

Have you read Alfie Kohn at all? If he's always looking for the reward or treat, I'd be tempted to stop with treats and rewards right away and let him have the experience of recognizing that having made you happy or having done the right thing IS the reward.

 

Since he's addicted to TV and games, I'd let him know there won't be any more of those until he is compliant. If he can be compliant for treats, he can be compliant, period.

[spaceman]

He sounds EXACTLY like my 5 year old.

 

I've almost taken him in for an evaluation several times, but never have. He doesn't fit into any of the diagnoses I know. I have described him as "aspergers-like", and he is also quite gifted. My son does have food allergies (gi reactions, not anaphylaxis) that impact his behavior and he may have some sensory issues that are undiagnosed.

 

Punishments make him angry and everything gets much worse (it may work, a little, if it's a very logical consequence--anything removed from the scenario just breeds revenge).

 

Instead, I'll pull him aside and calm down with him (that sounded peaceful, but really it's a messy process), and then talk to him about his needs and the other party's needs. And some days/times, he just has to be drug along screaming until we can find time to sort it out, because the rest of the family has things going on too. Once he's calm and understands (if we had punished, we'd NEVER get to that point...and too much punishy type things from us leaves him untrusting of us and we won't get the to the understanding part which is the only time he'll change his behavior)...once we get there, I guide him to find ways to "make it right". Sometimes that becomes an ultimatum ("you have to make this right, he might feel better if you apologized, before we can do xyz"), but the times that stick out as most successful haven't included ultimatums.

 

The other major thing I do that may help you is changing my wording of commands to give him less of a feeling of being bossed around. So, "put the trash in the trash can" becomes, "the trash needs to go into the trash can".

 

And I have structured our day so that he must do things I need from him before we do the things he wants. :) And I regularly tell him where we are going next always only in the car. Sometimes it's good news and sometimes it's bad news...and he melts down with most of it. I'm just less embarrassed and inconvenienced when he does it in the car.

 

I don't know if your son is the same, but mine needs VERY consistent rules, lots of empathy, and an uncluttered environment (both with stuff and noise).

[blondeviolin]

We have some of the same issues from time to time with my 4yo. It comes and goes in waves and spurts. Definitely read on gifted kids and overexcitabilities. You might also read a bit on sensory activities. My son is better when he solid amounts of time for large motor skills. If I make sure he has thirty minutes to ride his bike before a big task, he is a completely different boy.

 

It also sounds like he's whining/complaining about phonics because he's bored with it.

[Cara in Ky]

My son is similar. He has ADHD. He is only allowed on the video games/computer once in a while because he goes nuts afterwards. When we have a transition I find it works best to give him a 15 and 5 minute warning before hand. When DS plays any sport we always talk with his coach to let him know the best way to handle DS. When he gets out of hand or starts not listening the coach has him run a lap. Once he gets some energy out, DS is usually fine. Many times the coaches doesn't do this until DS pushes them over the edge because they feel badly doing it. They always later say how well it worked and that they wish they had done it earlier. lol

DS is always testing me and others. He just needs to see that we are going to be lovingly consistent as are the other adults in charge of him.

[SKL]

My dd5 (already mentioned above) is also difficult at sports. I too warn the coaches in advance. She only wants to do what "she" wants to do - and coached activities are, well, coached. Each coach has seen her kind of kid before, and each has his/her own way of dealing with her. I rarely receive complaints, but I know she gives them a run for their money.

 

Many are the times I've thought about removing her from sports. She doesn't like them all that much in the first place. But she really needs the physical activity and awareness. Eventually I hope she will learn how to at least fake it rather than aggravate the coaches.

[cseitter]

Time-outs just don't faze him at all anymore. Sometimes he will become angry but most of the time he just gets up and does whatever again. He KNOWS he isn't suppose to be doing XYZ but does it anyway. He will tell you he knew he wasn't suppose to. And I don't think he just can't help it. You can actually SEE it on his face as he is figuring out whether to do XYZ again and is the consequence worth it.

 

And he completely ignores or tunes you out. You could call his name over and over and he doesn't respond until you yell or sound like you are getting angry then he responds with "what?" It drives my husband up a wall. And if it can be dropped, broken, moved, or messed up he is the one to do it. We went to the sports store to get gloves the other day. He knocked over all the bats, knocked the gloves over, ran into the bikes. He is like a bull in a china cabinet.

 

I feel horrible talking about him like this. He IS a very loveable child. he is always hugging and kissing me and his sisters. He is also VERY maternal for a boy. When his younger sister was born we thought we would really have to watch him around her but he was always so sweet with her and would come over and lay his head on her and tell her he loved her. And he LOVES babies.

 

So where can I go to see what are "Normal" behavioral expectations for a boy of 5?

[hillfarm]

Not sure if this would help at all, but when my dd was younger, we would play a Mother May I/Simon Says type of game I made up, so that she could practice obedience. We did a whole unit on authority for her in 1st grade, and the game was part of that.

 

It was fun and silly and involved lots of giggling. For example, "Go get a dish towel and wear it on your head for math today.", or "Lie on your tummy and crawl like a worm into the kitchen to get a special snack." Another fun one was, "You have 1 hour to do what ever you want, but you must have one body part in contact with the giant exercise ball at all times." The consequence for disobedience was that the game was discontinued.

 

I did this to help her discover that compliance could sometimes be fun. From there, we eased into using a jar with tasks written on slips of paper, many fun ones, but some intentionally hard ones such as clean the bathroom sink with your toothbrush while singing your favorite song." (Only when I was about ready to replace the toothbrushes anyway!)

 

I also often used the example of dd being in charge of her younger cousin, and asked what should be done if her charge behaved as she did. ("So you're in charge of Sally. Sally won't stop playing in the campfire even though you have warned her many times. This is an important issue due to the possibility of injury. What should you do to keep Sally safe?")

 

I'm not sure whether all my stellar efforts helped, or whether dd just outgrew her defiant stage. Perhaps a bit of both.

[BrookValley.]

I don't have any great and wonderful suggestions, but thank you for starting this thread. Your son sounds a lot like my nearly 5-year old son. I assume at least part of my kiddo's issues stem from normal lack of impulse control, but I just don't handle it well. At all.

 

Punishments and time-outs don't work for us, either. I don't call it "time-out" and I try to use the time as more of a reflection and/or calm-down period, but it nearly always backfires. Either he gets angry (and tells me so), or he simply says he wants to sit. And when his time is up, he says no, he wants to continue to sit. After he fell asleep once in his calm-down spot because he refused to get up, I knew the strategy was really, really not working. There is also nothing I can take from him that he cares about. If he loses a (seemingly) favorite toy because he threw it into the wall, he simply says "bye bye [favorite toy]" and goes on about his business.

 

My son also does the same undesirable behavior over and over. On the ocassions I have asked why he continues, he often says (quite earnestly) that he "just can't help it." I think he's telling the truth, I just don't know how to help him. The latest is picking up the cat or otherwise bothering the cat. He is not hurtful about it; he's actually very gentle with animals, loves animals, etc. But the kitten really doesn't want to be picked up repeatedly...and over...and over....548 times per day. And I don't want the kitten growing into a cat that despises young children because it was hassled constantly. On the flipside, I know my son is just really excited about the cat. He loves the cat--he wants to pet the cat, play with the cat, be with the cat. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a constructive solution to help him deal with the lack of impulse control. I have tried redirection, giving him alternate choices (you need to put the cat down, but you can pet him gently. Or, if the cat walks away, you need to let him go; but maybe he'd like you throw his toy mouse?), and punishment/time out. Nothing works.

 

However, I thought that his behavior was pretty normal, and that it is my behavior that is the problem (well, I know my reactions are not helpful). So...5-year olds are not usually like this? :tongue_smilie::bigear:

[Chris in VA]

Time-outs just don't faze him at all anymore. Sometimes he will become angry but most of the time he just gets up and does whatever again. He KNOWS he isn't suppose to be doing XYZ but does it anyway. He will tell you he knew he wasn't suppose to. And I don't think he just can't help it. You can actually SEE it on his face as he is figuring out whether to do XYZ again and is the consequence worth it.

 

And he completely ignores or tunes you out. You could call his name over and over and he doesn't respond until you yell or sound like you are getting angry then he responds with "what?" It drives my husband up a wall. And if it can be dropped, broken, moved, or messed up he is the one to do it. We went to the sports store to get gloves the other day. He knocked over all the bats, knocked the gloves over, ran into the bikes. He is like a bull in a china cabinet.

I feel horrible talking about him like this. He IS a very loveable child. he is always hugging and kissing me and his sisters. He is also VERY maternal for a boy. When his younger sister was born we thought we would really have to watch him around her but he was always so sweet with her and would come over and lay his head on her and tell her he loved her. And he LOVES babies.

 

So where can I go to see what are "Normal" behavioral expectations for a boy of 5?

 

The bolded parts sound like some sensory stuff--sensory seeking kiddos can be like that. Just wondered if you've ever researched that angle of it all.

[cseitter]

The bolded parts sound like some sensory stuff--sensory seeking kiddos can be like that. Just wondered if you've ever researched that angle of it all.

His twin has a little bit of sensory issues and low muscle tone. He developed normally with motor skills so he wasn't tested.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I've said it repeatedly on here, but with no sugar in his diet, my son has no more meltdowns. It's really amazing.

 

Also, both my sons have much better behavior when there is very limited screen time.