Spinn Off: 'Credit Carding' and TSA and Bullying . . .

[HSMWB]

Sorry, evidently I kind of derailed a thread because I compared a situation in public schools known as 'credit carding' to what the TSA has been sanctioned to do to the flying public.

 

Here is a thread for us to discuss such a topic. I will see if I can go find my post and put it here instead.

[HSMWB]

From http://mpoweredparent.com/blog/2010/...hat-you-think/

 

" “Credit Carding” is the act of inserting your bladed hand between the legs of an unsuspecting victim, then swiping up across the g******s or through the ch***s. "

 

Seriously, how is this so different?????? I am not trying to 'stir the pot', I think it is abhorrent behavior for ANYONE.

 

I have seen and experienced TSA patdowns described like this. Or like this: The TSA’s new “palms down” technique is leaving many passengers like **** feeling very violated, comparing the security screening to being sexually “groped.”

 

or this one: "She felt along my waistline, moved behind me, then proceeded to feel both of my buttocks. She reached from behind in the middle of my b******s towards my v****a area.

 

She did not tell methat she was going to touch my b******s, or reach forward to my v****a area."

[TravelingChris]

My daughter was patted down once and I have been patted down twice. It was never like a sexual assault. All the people doing it were professional and apologetic.

 

That said, I know some TSA agents are not like that. Hopefully they get fired.

[roseyloxs]

I have been patted down by TSA and I find it uncomfortable. I do think the act is similar to what credit carding is. However there is one striking difference in that most TSA agents are trying to do their job and are in no way trying to humiliate passengers. However some of the stories about TSA agents are as disheartening as these 'credit carding' stories.

 

I agree that the pat downs are far too intrusive nowadays. I know now to not wear a bra with an underwire if I want to avoid being felt up by TSA. Just because you had a good experience with TSA does not negate the fact that others haven't. Just as my PS experience was wonderful and void of public humiliation does not mean that every one else was as lucky.

[GoVanGogh]

TSA pat-downs in America are nothing at all like the ones in Europe. :001_huh: The security officer in France had her hands all the way inside and down the waistband of my pants.

 

I have been patted down by TSA and I find it uncomfortable. I do think the act is similar to what credit carding is. However there is one striking difference in that most TSA agents are trying to do their job and are in no way trying to humiliate passengers.

:iagree:

To me the biggest difference is - the TSA is doing their job. It is a one-time thing. Over. Done. You get on with your day and don't see them ever again.

But 'credit carding' in school is an act of bullying because of intent and the fact that the children have to face each other day in and day out.

[Alicia64]

What's scary really adds up fast.

 

1) TSA "agents" have been given too much independence and very little training. Look into what it takes to become a TSA agent. There's very little requirement at all. One might be fine in Houston and another might be disgusting in Newark.

 

2) There appears to be no real recourse if something goes wrong. If a grandma or breast-pumping mom is violated TSA first says, "we did nothing." Then says, "it was one bad agent." But the system as a whole isn't being questioned by most Americans.

 

3) Agents are barely trained.

 

4) There are way too many experts questioning whether TSA's actions are helping.

 

5) Experts are worried that the scanners -- being performed by untrained people not familiar w/ these machines like an ultra-sound tech would be -- will one day lead to skin cancer.

 

We are the proverbial lobsters being boiled. And it bothers me that the majority of people just don't see this because they're being fed the idea that these methods are "for our safety."

 

I won't let me kids fly now. I don't want them going through scanners -- and I certainly don't want them being "patted down."

 

Alley

[HSMWB]

So is it that we have said that TSA is 'ok' and 'bulling' is 'not-ok'?????

 

What if a person has to fly often, there is not a good alternative, and does feel violated? What if a person has to go to a specific school, there is not a good alternative, and does feel violated?

[Jean in Newcastle]

So is it that we have said that TSA is 'ok' and 'bulling' is 'not-ok'?????

 

What if a person has to fly often, there is not a good alternative, and does feel violated? What if a person has to go to a specific school, there is not a good alternative, and does feel violated?

 

If you really feel that way about the TSA (I don't) then you take adult action:

 

you change your circumstances so that you don't have to fly

 

or

 

you file a suit against the TSA or otherwise lobby to change the laws and the status quo

 

You need to realize though that not everyone who flies is patted down. There are alternatives built into the system.

[Alicia64]

You need to realize though that not everyone who flies is patted down. There are alternatives built into the system.

 

Jean! I hope you're feeling better -- glad to see you're here!

 

We'll have to agree to disagree: besides being patted down or having to go through the scanner there are no alternatives.

 

And my understanding is that it's huge deal to decline politely and ask to be allowed to forget the flight and go home. Look what happened to Senator Paul recently.

 

Alley

[Haiku]

Bullying and TSA pat-downs are not the same. People may not like being patted down, and there may be (as in every profession) people who screw it up, but a security pat-down is simply not comparable, in any way, to sexual bullying.

 

Having your crotch touched is not automatically sexual. I think some people can't make the distinction.

 

Tara

[Jean in Newcastle]

Jean! I hope you're feeling better -- glad to see you're here!

 

We'll have to agree to disagree: besides being patted down or having to go through the scanner there are no alternatives.

 

And my understanding is that it's huge deal to decline politely and ask to be allowed to forget the flight and go home. Look what happened to Senator Paul recently.

 

Alley

 

I see going through the scanner as an alternative.

 

I'm feeling slightly better but not totally. Thank you.:)

[Heather in Neverland]

Bullying and TSA pat-downs are not the same. People may not like being patted down, and there may be (as in every profession) people who screw it up, but a security pat-down is simply not comparable, in any way, to sexual bullying.

 

Having your crotch touched is not automatically sexual. I think some people can't make the distinction.

 

Tara

 

:iagree:

 

When we recently picked up the immigrant visa for our daughter I was patted down before going in (apparently there is quite the black market here for U.S. immigrant visas!). It was a thorough pat down and it just never registered in my mind that it was "sexual" just because she touched my breasts, etc.

 

My gynecologist touches me in a lot more ways than that and I don't find that sexual either.

 

I coached a competitive, co-ed cheerleading team for many years. Have you ever watched one of those routines? The boys have to put their hands in ALL SORTS of places on girls to accomplish those stunts. Same goes for dancers... all those lifts, etc. No one feels sexually violated.

 

Maybe I'm just not sensitive enough? :001_huh:

 

 

.

[HSMWB]

We'll have to agree to disagree: besides being patted down or having to go through the scanner there are no alternatives.

 

And my understanding is that it's huge deal to decline politely and ask to be allowed to forget the flight and go home. Look what happened to Senator Paul recently.

 

I agree.

 

Then this was on the news just today, I didn't even see it till after all these posts, but I think it is very timely. http://todaytravel.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/05/10582817-tsa-apologizes-to-humiliated-mom-for-breast-pump-gaffe?chromedomain=moms with a quote from the article "There was a TSA agent in there using the restroom and I asked her if there was a private place to pump, and she said no,†Strand said. “I had to stand at the sink in my heels and dress pumping as travelers came and went. I was humiliated and fighting back tears." "

How is this not an instance of abuse at the hands of the TSA? And no one is even touching her.

 

 

you file a suit against the TSA or otherwise lobby to change the laws and the status quo

 

I believe the ACLU is working in this - what to do in the meanwhile?

[celticmom]

What's scary really adds up fast.

 

1) TSA "agents" have been given too much independence and very little training. Look into what it takes to become a TSA agent. There's very little requirement at all. One might be fine in Houston and another might be disgusting in Newark.

 

2) There appears to be no real recourse if something goes wrong. If a grandma or breast-pumping mom is violated TSA first says, "we did nothing." Then says, "it was one bad agent." But the system as a whole isn't being questioned by most Americans.

 

3) Agents are barely trained.

 

4) There are way too many experts questioning whether TSA's actions are helping.

 

5) Experts are worried that the scanners -- being performed by untrained people not familiar w/ these machines like an ultra-sound tech would be -- will one day lead to skin cancer.

 

We are the proverbial lobsters being boiled. And it bothers me that the majority of people just don't see this because they're being fed the idea that these methods are "for our safety."

 

I won't let me kids fly now. I don't want them going through scanners -- and I certainly don't want them being "patted down."

 

Alley

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Robin M]

When we flew out of Sacramento and Las Vegas a couple weeks ago, we didn't have any difficulties at all. They didn't make my 12 year old go through the scanner. We just went through the regular metal detector. I think they've decided not to scan minors.

[ChandlerMom]

What's scary really adds up fast.

 

1) TSA "agents" have been given too much independence and very little training. Look into what it takes to become a TSA agent. There's very little requirement at all. One might be fine in Houston and another might be disgusting in Newark.

 

2) There appears to be no real recourse if something goes wrong. If a grandma or breast-pumping mom is violated TSA first says, "we did nothing." Then says, "it was one bad agent." But the system as a whole isn't being questioned by most Americans.

 

3) Agents are barely trained.

 

4) There are way too many experts questioning whether TSA's actions are helping.

 

5) Experts are worried that the scanners -- being performed by untrained people not familiar w/ these machines like an ultra-sound tech would be -- will one day lead to skin cancer.

 

We are the proverbial lobsters being boiled. And it bothers me that the majority of people just don't see this because they're being fed the idea that these methods are "for our safety."

 

I won't let me kids fly now. I don't want them going through scanners -- and I certainly don't want them being "patted down."

 

Alley

 

A couple friends of mine are TSOs (correct term for TSA "agents" - the "O" stands for Officer, since they are technically federal officers), so as to your concerns:

 

1. As to how easy it is to get hired -- (the number I've heard was) less than 5% of applicants pass the initial employee screening (which is extensive), and they have a very hire washout rate in the first 6 months.

2. They have a straightforward chain of command and you are free to file your complaints.

3. TSOs are the highest tested and lowest paid of any federal employee. They go through ongoing training and have to pass rigorous annual certification testing for each and every procedure and piece of equipment ...or they lose their job.

4. Which "experts"? There will always be debate if this is the best way to do things. This is your only point (though an important one) that is even up for interpretation or debate!

5. There is nothing "unknown" about the safety of the machines, they use low energy, non-penetrating parts of the spectrum and you get more radiation walking to your mailbox on a cloudy day, and far less than the dose of cosmic radiation you'll get while actually on your flight (which is about 0.2 to 0.5 mrem per hour of flight, a chest x-ray about 10 mrem).

 

There are all sorts of valid concerns with how our post-9/11 security is handled, but your list is just not accurate and imo reduces something worth discussing to fear-mongering. You're also using very charged language, which suggests any discussion here that doesn't end up as TSA bashing won't be acceptable to you.

 

ETA: As to them making a big deal about NOT letting you change your mind: here you are correct. Once you start the screening process (at the doc checker) you can not rescind it. Let's say you were a bad guy with some sinister intent and the TSO is about to search your bag and discover something dangerous. Would you WANT the TSA to let the guy stop the search at any time and leave, maybe have the TSO tell the guy, "hey, no problem, better luck next time!" I also agree with the PP that you should try traveling in Europe sometime.

Edited March 6, 2012 by ChandlerMom

[NatashainDFW]

For a family like mine flying is no longer an option. My husband is the survivor of sexual abuse (think 12 years worth) and the idea of anyone, especially an adult, patting down my child and their hands coming anywhere near their private region is enough to put him into a panic attack. I worked in a prison where I was searched EVERY day and the pat downs I see by TSA are way more sexual than not. The officer who did pat downs at the prison used the back of their hands under the breasts but allowed us to lift them ourselves if they are large and did not come close enough to my crotch to ever make me uncomfortable. I have watched the videos. To many people are having their crotches inspected even children. I don't think I should have to tell my kids that certain places are not safe touches unless the person at the airport is doing it! I don't know if you guys have seen the video where the little girl was so uncomfortable with having her chest and crotch touched by the TSA officer that she was in absolute tears. That is not okay. Instead we drove over 20 hours instead of taking a 2.5 hour flight to come visit family.

[HSMWB]

There are all sorts of valid concerns with how our post-9/11 security is handled, but your list is just not accurate and imo reduces something worth discussing to fear-mongering. You're also using very charged language, which suggests any discussion here that doesn't end up as TSA bashing won't be acceptable to you.

 

'I' do not think we need to revert to TSOfficer bashing at all. But I do think that this is a topic that needs more open discussion in our country. LOTS more. How would you re-frame the discussion and still discuss the point of the pat down's and back scatter?

 

ETA: As to them making a big deal about NOT letting you change your mind: here you are correct. Once you start the screening process (at the doc checker) you can not rescind it. Let's say you were a bad guy with some sinister intent and the TSO is about to search your bag and discover something dangerous. Would you WANT the TSA to let the guy stop the search at any time and leave, maybe have the TSO tell the guy, "hey, no problem, better luck next time!" I also agree with the PP that you should try traveling in Europe sometime.

 

While I can see the point, what about the person (maybe a survivor of abuse maybe not) who thinks that they can handle going through security till they witness what is going on and then decide that they can't because they are on the verge of a panic attack or other meltdown of some sort and just want to leave and remove themselves back into personal safety? I have to believe that the hard data is going to suggest that there are a lot more survivors of abuse flying then potential terrorists.