VENT: Double standard for homeschoolers (socialization issues):

[Michelle in MO]

Many of you may know that we have decided to send our girls to a private high school 30 minutes away from us. Although we are not members of that church, the staff and administration have been lovely. It seems to be the best overall educational option for all three girls. Not everything is carved in stone yet, though. The community college may be a better fit for our oldest.

 

Now, on to my rant: My girls take piano & voice lessons, and I really do like their teacher. Today, however, my middle daughter mentioned to her that another family that we know that has nine children was considering sending two of their daughters to school at this same private high school. The mother has a new baby and is simply overwhelmed. These two girls have been taking a summer school class at our local high school, and every day one of the girls has come home very upset and crying because of the behavior of the kids at the public h.s. She says that the kids are "really mean". So, this family is considering sending their two girls to the same school we're considering. Both girls are very sociable, funny, outgoing, etc. In other words, they're not the types you would think wouldn't "fit in".

 

The teacher thought that these two girls just needed to "get it together" and stick it out at the local high school. First of all, I cautioned our middle daughter against sharing every little bit of information that's passed along to her with other people.

 

But---I admit I was frustrated with our dear teacher! She herself quit teaching at the public schools years ago because of the behavior of the kids, obtained her master's degree, and taught at the community college level before offering private lessons.

 

To me, this seems like a double standard. On the one hand, these two very well-adjusted girls, who happen to have been homeschooled all their lives, should "stick it out" at the local high school. On the other hand, an adult who taught at the local schools stopped teaching there because of the same behavior!

 

To me, one of the amazing things in this story is that this particular family I'm speaking of comes from a very different Christian background than the school their family and our family are considering. From my perspective, it's very brave and open-minded of them to consider a completely different Christian perspective than their own.

 

I know our kids need to learn to get along with all different types in this world, but what is wrong with a parent searching for the best social option for their children? In my opinion, this is one problem with schools in general---sometimes harmful social situations are allowed to continue because the staff or administration is unaware or the problem or simply doesn't care. The kids just need to "work it out". The problem is, sometimes they don't, or sometimes the kids choose pretty destructive ways to work out their social frustrations.

 

Am I venting or ranting too much? Please forgive me if I am. I just don't get this.

[genie]

I've been frustrated over the last few weeks about a similar double standard. I've been trying to enroll my daughter in some summer sports and other activities to try to get out of the house more (we're naturally big old homebodies) and meet more friends (we live in a rural area with few kids). Well, I need a definition of "socialized" because what I seem to be finding is that the ps kids have their little cliques, and it doesn't matter if a nice girl is standing all by herself or swimming alone or doesn't have a partner for tennis, none of them either notice her, or make any attempts to invite her to join them.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't actually expect that to happen, but I find it highly ironic that it's my homeschooled daughter who would be willing to hang with just about anyone and would make it a point to include a loner, but the socialized public school kids are so not open to meeting new people or being friendly to someone who is clearly off on her own. And I hesitate to advise my daughter to go up to a clique and ask to join in, because I have very little faith that they would receive that well. Very frustrating!

[Michelle in MO]

Well, I need a definition of "socialized" because what I seem to be finding is that the ps kids have their little cliques, and it doesn't matter if a nice girl is standing all by herself or swimming alone or doesn't have a partner for tennis, none of them either notice her, or make any attempts to invite her to join them.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't actually expect that to happen, but I find it highly ironic that it's my homeschooled daughter who would be willing to hang with just about anyone and would make it a point to include a loner, but the socialized public school kids are so not open to meeting new people or being friendly to someone who is clearly off on her own. And I hesitate to advise my daughter to go up to a clique and ask to join in, because I have very little faith that they would receive that well. Very frustrating!

 

socialization that other people (including some parents!) consider acceptable (i.e., cliques) and other types of socialization that are not considered acceptable.

 

Once the friend of a relative of ours talked about the homeschoolers she "knew" of who "stood off by themselves" apart from the public school kids, in a separate group, and how they "tended to talk with grown-ups" instead of the public school kids. I commented that perhaps it was the public school kids who should have made some overtures as well, and also that perhaps the homeschooled kids were very well socialized because they could and did talk to adults! Different perspective on the same situation, kwim?

 

I have found that some public school kids are great and are very friendly and willing to break away from the group and meet someone new. Many, unfortunately, are not willing to be friendly with someone not in their group. I think it's a rare jewel of a kid who can do this.

 

I feel for your daughter and for you. How do you make friends with kids when they're already in a "pack"? I hope some opportunity presents itself for your girl; perhaps somewhere along the line someone will venture off by themselves and she can have the opportunity to strike up a conversation with them. We live in a small town with rural surroundings, so I know what you mean about the difficulty of finding other social settings for our kids. It's not always that easy.

 

It does seem like this "pack" mentality fades away to a certain degree after high school, as kids move into college and jobs---at least, I hope it does. At least the pull isn't so strong then. What to do in the meantime, though? That's the big question.

[elizam]

I've been frustrated over the last few weeks about a similar double standard. I've been trying to enroll my daughter in some summer sports and other activities to try to get out of the house more (we're naturally big old homebodies) and meet more friends (we live in a rural area with few kids). Well, I need a definition of "socialized" because what I seem to be finding is that the ps kids have their little cliques, and it doesn't matter if a nice girl is standing all by herself or swimming alone or doesn't have a partner for tennis, none of them either notice her, or make any attempts to invite her to join them.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't actually expect that to happen, but I find it highly ironic that it's my homeschooled daughter who would be willing to hang with just about anyone and would make it a point to include a loner, but the socialized public school kids are so not open to meeting new people or being friendly to someone who is clearly off on her own. And I hesitate to advise my daughter to go up to a clique and ask to join in, because I have very little faith that they would receive that well. Very frustrating!

 

 

I so understand what you are saying! My dd is homeschooled, almost 14, and very, very nice to others. She will talk to anyone and include everyone. (she has gotten a 'tude towards me lately, but that's a different story). Very few people are mean to her that I know of...but I've noticed that the "super popular" (I know who they are because my son is in PS) do not talk to her--ever. And it bugs me...because "popular" is never synonomous with "nice"!

 

Then take my PSed son, who was nicer and more inclusive of others when he was homeschooled....but others treated him like cr*p and often still do. PS has beena huge ugly learning experience for him of how mean other kids can be, how much they can disrupt your learning, and how teachers prefer the "popular" kids because they are usually the honors kids, which means they are more "respectable" and "From good families."

 

I had a school counselor tell me that my ds had issues simply because he'd been homeschooled--"homeschooled kids tend not to have good social skills" was what she said. Well, she's never met my dd...or my very friendly 9yo, or my talkative 4yo...but then, ds was more sociable and fun to be around when he *wasn't* in PS, which none of my other kids are in and don't want to be in. My oldest has issues more related to ADHD than to PS...issues that are with him wherever he goes...and, in some ways, are exacerbated by PS.

 

As my dd's high school years are about to begin, I am getting more unsolicited advice...from my mom, from MIL, from others who barely know us. Really, even my mom and MIL barely know our kids...we see them maybe once a year??? But it's all about "sinking or swimming" and how ds' problems in PS "prove" that our others "need to" go to PS to avoid such issues...and because oldest dd is so good, they think she needs to go even more...

 

UGHHHH..........

[Jane in NC]

 

How do you make friends with kids when they're already in a "pack"?

 

My son recently took a driver's ed class at a private driving school. The local public schools were still in session, but two private schools in the area had finished the week before. Turned out that there were eight kids from one school in the class, four from another. My son's interesting observation was that it was easier to talk to the kids from the school with the larger number of attendees in the class. Eight people makes too large of a group so they naturally broke up and included him. The four kids from the same school tended to cling together.

 

Frankly what I find to be so disturbing is that rude behavior is accepted as a standard of teenaged behavior by many adults. "That's just the way kids are," someone will say. Really? Or is it just the expectation?

 

Jane

[Robin in DFW]

We have had similar experiences.

 

What I usually see is many kids in ps (all of my homeschooled dd's club soccer team) are the ones with the socialization issues. They are rude, pack-like, vulgar (give personal details of dates, etc.), curse...shall I continue? But, there are some of the girls on this team that are truly sweet, kind kids. These are the ones my dd hangs with. The funny thing is, most of the ill-mannered kids also have ill-mannered parents. These parents also hang in select groups and are not very nice. What's the saying about the acorn not falling far from the tree??? Also, many of these parents are ps teachers...I would not want any of them teaching my kids.

 

Anyway, I discuss these things with my dd15. She expresses her opinion about their behavior to me. Ocassionally, she will even call them out on their behavior if things get really ugly. She can't handle bullying (she was bullied in ps in 5th/6th grades). She started homeschooling in 7th. She's btdt and never liked it all those years in ps...so homeschooling has nothing to do with her social skills. LOL. Actually, she's very mature. We joke that she was born 35!

 

I tend to think people attack homeschooled kids social skills because they have nothing else to criticize. One parent told me that only people trying to protect their kids from everything would homeschool...people are so ignorant.

 

I have found it frustrating to not be able to talk to people about our homeschool, but have come to the conclusion that we have this wonderful secret and if people are so closed-minded, they don't deserve to be in on it.

 

Don't worry about what others think...

 

As for the girls "sticking it out"...adults don't usually stick it out if there is a bad situation...job, relationship, etc. They move on. Kids should be able to do the same. They are people, too.

 

Robin

[genie]

I feel for your daughter and for you. How do you make friends with kids when they're already in a "pack"? I hope some opportunity presents itself for your girl; perhaps somewhere along the line someone will venture off by themselves and she can have the opportunity to strike up a conversation with them. We live in a small town with rural surroundings, so I know what you mean about the difficulty of finding other social settings for our kids. It's not always that easy.

 

 

Thanks. :o Her tennis teacher has gotten a little better about pairing the students up instead of leaving them to pair themselves. And once she gets paired with them, they are very nice and not at all rude or exclusive. It's just hard to break down that initial wall. And of course, the program only runs for two weeks, so by the time she may start to get "in" with any of the girls, class will be over, but they won't be "close" enough to exchange numbers or anything.

 

That's the other problem I'm finding with our local sports programs. They usually only run about 6 weeks, meeting once, maybe twice a week, and the time is fully structured, so they don't really have the opportunity to get to know each other. That's just not long enough to break the barrier and get friendly enough to meet outside the sport. Plus, I'm quite the introvert and tend to read books or otherwise keep to myself instead of doing the chatty mom thing, so I'm really no help at all. We need to find something that last longer and is more consistent, but I just haven't found anything around here like that yet.

[Michelle in MO]

Turned out that there were eight kids from one school in the class, four from another. My son's interesting observation was that it was easier to talk to the kids from the school with the larger number of attendees in the class. Eight people makes too large of a group so they naturally broke up and included him. The four kids from the same school tended to cling together.

 

Frankly what I find to be so disturbing is that rude behavior is accepted as a standard of teenaged behavior by many adults. "That's just the way kids are," someone will say. Really? Or is it just the expectation?

 

Jane

 

If kids do not have adults that expect decent behavior, there's no compelling reason to be polite. When my oldest encountered some serious problems with a clique at a local private school, the standard answer from the administration was exactly what you said: "That's just the way kids are" or "These things build character." Well---yes, they can and do, but people make these types of statements into a truism. To me, it's an excuse to cover up behavioral issues that should be dealt with.

 

The funny thing is, most of the ill-mannered kids also have ill-mannered parents. These parents also hang in select groups and are not very nice. What's the saying about the acorn not falling far from the tree??? Also, many of these parents are ps teachers...I would not want any of them teaching my kids.

 

*****

 

I tend to think people attack homeschooled kids social skills because they have nothing else to criticize. One parent told me that only people trying to protect their kids from everything would homeschool...people are so ignorant.

 

*****

 

As for the girls "sticking it out"...adults don't usually stick it out if there is a bad situation...job, relationship, etc. They move on. Kids should be able to do the same. They are people, too.

 

Robin

 

How true, Robin! One girl that caused many problems for one of my kids had a mother whose own problems mirrored her daughters' (or, was it the other way around?).

 

You summed it all up very well: adults don't usually stay in very unpleasant work situations unless they must. That is what irked me about our teacher's comments: she stopped teaching in the public schools because she felt like she was trying to teach kids that didn't want to learn. The behavioral issues were getting to her. Why would anyone expect more of their children than they themselves could live up to?

 

I don't want my kids to run from their problems in school---like I said, we're planning on enrolling ours in this school, although we do it with some "fear and trembling". We think it's the right decision, but we do have concerns and are trying to take this next step with eyes open. Overall, though, it seems like this school might have more "safeguards" than our local p.s.

 

Thanks for letting me vent. I know there are problems all around, and I've seen problems with homeschoolers, too. However, there does seem to be a double-standard when it comes to homeschooled kids.

[LizzyBee]

You know, someone told me just recently that she thinks taking kids out of school is not a solution, because they need to learn to cope. This was in the context of a discussion about the 5 yo autistic boy being told by his teacher that she hates him! But as adults, we don't put up with many of the behaviors that many people expect our kids to tolerate. Several years ago, when I was not happy in my work environment, I changed jobs. When I wasn't happy with how my middle child was being treated in ps, I pulled my kids out of ps. I hope I am teaching them to keep their options open and not to be afraid of change, rather than accepting the status quo just because it's socially acceptable.

[Storm Bay]

I've been frustrated over the last few weeks about a similar double standard. I've been trying to enroll my daughter in some summer sports and other activities to try to get out of the house more (we're naturally big old homebodies) and meet more friends (we live in a rural area with few kids). Well, I need a definition of "socialized" because what I seem to be finding is that the ps kids have their little cliques, and it doesn't matter if a nice girl is standing all by herself or swimming alone or doesn't have a partner for tennis, none of them either notice her, or make any attempts to invite her to join them.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't actually expect that to happen, but I find it highly ironic that it's my homeschooled daughter who would be willing to hang with just about anyone and would make it a point to include a loner, but the socialized public school kids are so not open to meeting new people or being friendly to someone who is clearly off on her own. And I hesitate to advise my daughter to go up to a clique and ask to join in, because I have very little faith that they would receive that well. Very frustrating!

 

 

An interesting book on this is Queen Bees and Wannabes. It is a very illuminating (and memory invoking) look at girls' social structure in middle school & high school.

[genie]

I hope I am teaching them to keep their options open and not to be afraid of change, rather than accepting the status quo just because it's socially acceptable.

 

Hear hear!

 

Our life is what we make of it, and there is no reason not to exercise an option if it is there to be had.

[genie]

An interesting book on this is Queen Bees and Wannabes. It is a very illuminating (and memory invoking) look at girls' social structure in middle school & high school.

 

I saw that book in the library a couple of years ago but my daughter was early elementary at that point so I didn't check it out. I should probably do that now. :)

[at the beach]

An interesting book on this is Queen Bees and Wannabes. It is a very illuminating (and memory invoking) look at girls' social structure in middle school & high school.

 

And another great book is called, Hold onto Your Kids. Behavior of kids/teens often seems a lot like pack behavior. Hold onto Your Kids is really helpful in understanding this sort of thing.

 

Anita

[Sunshine State Sue]

An interesting book on this is Queen Bees and Wannabes.

 

And another interesting book is A Sense of Self by Susannah Sheffer. It was written in response to Raising Ophelia which talked about how girl's self-esteem diminished in the adolescent years, partially due to school practices. A Sense of Self discusses homeschooled adolescent girls and how their self-esteem did no such thing. It is fascinating.

 

This was the first homeschooling book I ever read. I remember reading it (even before I was pregnant) and thinking that if I had a daughter, she would never see the inside of a school. I've got a son, but I hope that the benefits are similar.

[Tammyla]

I think there is an unspoken belief that suffering in school will produce better citizens, and that many overlook bullying in order to produce those better people/citizens.

 

Many of you may know that we have decided to send our girls to a private high school 30 minutes away from us. Although we are not members of that church, the staff and administration have been lovely. It seems to be the best overall educational option for all three girls. Not everything is carved in stone yet, though. The community college may be a better fit for our oldest.

 

Now, on to my rant: My girls take piano & voice lessons, and I really do like their teacher. Today, however, my middle daughter mentioned to her that another family that we know that has nine children was considering sending two of their daughters to school at this same private high school. The mother has a new baby and is simply overwhelmed. These two girls have been taking a summer school class at our local high school, and every day one of the girls has come home very upset and crying because of the behavior of the kids at the public h.s. She says that the kids are "really mean". So, this family is considering sending their two girls to the same school we're considering. Both girls are very sociable, funny, outgoing, etc. In other words, they're not the types you would think wouldn't "fit in".

 

The teacher thought that these two girls just needed to "get it together" and stick it out at the local high school. First of all, I cautioned out middle daughter against sharing every little bit of information that's passed along to her with other people.

 

But---I admit I was frustrated with our dear teacher! She herself quit teaching at the public schools years ago because of the behavior of the kids, obtained her master's degree, and taught at the community college level before offering private lessons.

 

To me, this seems like a double standard. On the one hand, these two very well-adjusted girls, who happen to have been homeschooled all their lives, should "stick it out" at the local high school. On the other hand, an adult who taught at the local schools stopped teaching there because of the same behavior!

 

To me, one of the amazing things in this story is that this particular family I'm speaking of comes from a very different Christian background than the school their family and our family are considering. From my perspective, it's very brave and open-minded of them to consider a completely different Christian perspective than their own.

 

I know our kids need to learn to get along with all different types in this world, but what is wrong with a parent searching for the best social option for their children? In my opinion, this is one problem with schools in general---sometimes harmful social situations are allowed to continue because the staff or administration is unaware or the problem or simply doesn't care. The kids just need to "work it out". The problem is, sometimes they don't, or sometimes the kids choose pretty destructive ways to work out their social frustrations.

 

Am I venting or ranting too much? Please forgive me if I am. I just don't get this.

[Michelle in MO]

Thanks. :o Her tennis teacher has gotten a little better about pairing the students up instead of leaving them to pair themselves. And once she gets paired with them, they are very nice and not at all rude or exclusive. It's just hard to break down that initial wall. And of course, the program only runs for two weeks, so by the time she may start to get "in" with any of the girls, class will be over, but they won't be "close" enough to exchange numbers or anything.

 

That's the other problem I'm finding with our local sports programs. They usually only run about 6 weeks, meeting once, maybe twice a week, and the time is fully structured, so they don't really have the opportunity to get to know each other. That's just not long enough to break the barrier and get friendly enough to meet outside the sport. Plus, I'm quite the introvert and tend to read books or otherwise keep to myself instead of doing the chatty mom thing, so I'm really no help at all. We need to find something that last longer and is more consistent, but I just haven't found anything around here like that yet.

 

whatever does help. Teachers should be pro-active in this respect, given the proclivity of human nature. Our tendencies as people are to simply "bunch up" with others that are like us. In one respect, that's good: we need friends like ourselves. In another respect, it's not always so good, because we tend to overlook the needs of others. (Or, at least, I'm speaking for how I can be sometimes. :blush: )

 

An interesting book on this is Queen Bees and Wannabes. It is a very illuminating (and memory invoking) look at girls' social structure in middle school & high school.

 

I think I've seen this book at Barnes & Noble. I should check to see if our library has it. I don't know for certain how boys' social structure is, but sometimes girls' social structure can be particularly insidious. Girls can be more "clannish" and tend to give more "tit for tat" when they're frustrated with each other or mad at another girl. Boys seem to just "fight it out" somehow and get the "mad" over and done with. (I could be wrong! Obviously I'm a mother of girls, not boys!) I'm not advocating fighting, mind you. But, maybe we as moms of girls (and boys here, too, obviously) have a special opportunity to train our kids to react differently than what is considered "the norm."

 

I'll have to look at the other two books that Anita in OH and Sue in St. Pete recommended. I've heard of at least one of them, I think.

 

This seems to sum up what I believe:

 

I think there is an unspoken belief that suffering in school will produce better citizens, and that many overlook bullying in order to produce those better people/citizens.

 

I think some schools and school districts now are at last recognizing the need for improving the social end of things. There is much talk and many posters on the walls of our local schools that speak of "character education". For too long the "laissez-faire" mentality has reigned in some schools. Perhaps that can work fine for an economy, but my thinking is that kids, left to themselves, can possibly deteriorate into some pretty negative social situations. That's what the book Lord of the Flies by William Golding is about. Of course, that's an extreme example, but social situations, unless ameliorated by positive and persistent effort on the parts of all people involved, follow the Second Law of Thermodynamics: entropy. Things tend to move from a state of order to a state of disorder.

 

If we followed the inherent logic in Tammyla's statement (which I think encapsulates some of the thinking in some schools), then we should all be pushing for our kids to be in more difficult schools, more difficult social situations, because we all want them to have better character, right??? Really---no one in their right mind does that! We all try to find the best possible school situation for our kids, whether that be public, private, or homeschool.

[Storm Bay]

And another great book is called, Hold onto Your Kids. Behavior of kids/teens often seems a lot like pack behavior. Hold onto Your Kids is really helpful in understanding this sort of thing.

 

Anita

 

Yes! I'd forgotten about this because I didn't finish Hold on to Your Kids as it wasn't what I needed at the time. I'll have to check it out from the library again sometime.

[Jan P.]

I see this all the time. I've dealt with it since I started homeschooling 14 years ago. I always find it "interesting" that my mother and my mother-in-law will always question the other grandkids how they are doing in school, or they will brag that so and so got an "A" in such and such. They never ask how my kids are doing!!! Now I don't go around and brag about the great grades they get. I was taught by this same Mom not to brag!!!

 

I just don't get it, but hey, maybe I really do! :lol:

 

Jan

[PamJH]

Homeschooled kids also have their cliques; they're just more polite about it.

 

My dd has, for the past two years, tried to be friendly with the girls in our homeschool group. These girls are very polite, say hello to her and ask her to join their group. Fifteen minutes later, my dd will wander back to where her brother is hanging out or come back to sit with me.

 

The problem? These girls have been homeschooled for years and have known each other practically since they were in diapers. They have their inside jokes, all their classes are similar, and they sit and talk about all the times they get together on the weekends. My daughter has been invited to none of these intimate gatherings. My dd is friendly, kind, interesting and has a lot to talk about. But she says she feels rude if she tries to change the group's subject. She's quite certain the other girls think she's boring because she can't find anything to say.

 

My daughter hasn't had a best pal, or even a close pal, for the two years we've been homeschooling. That is my only regret about homeschooling. While I don't think peers should take precedence in a child's life, a child shouldn't have to go around friendless.

If it weren't for my ds and their ps'd cousin, my dd would have no friends at all.

 

Nice, huh?

[SallyMac]

Homeschooled kids also have their cliques; they're just more polite about it.

 

My dd has, for the past two years, tried to be friendly with the girls in our homeschool group. These girls are very polite, say hello to her and ask her to join their group. Fifteen minutes later, my dd will wander back to where her brother is hanging out or come back to sit with me.

 

The problem? These girls have been homeschooled for years and have known each other practically since they were in diapers. They have their inside jokes, all their classes are similar, and they sit and talk about all the times they get together on the weekends. My daughter has been invited to none of these intimate gatherings. My dd is friendly, kind, interesting and has a lot to talk about. But she says she feels rude if she tries to change the group's subject. She's quite certain the other girls think she's boring because she can't find anything to say.

 

 

 

My ds has had similar experiences with our different homeschooled groups: one is a group of intellectuals trying to make their homeschooled children into adult einsteins and not allow them to act and play like children; the other group was far more religious (and a different religion) and attended a different church. None of those kids ever included my ds.

 

So my ds turned to the kids in public school who he knew from swim lessons, theatre classes, and scouts. Many of these square peg kids would have benefited from the noncomformity of homeschooling away from the cliques as they have unusual talents and are bullied by both the teachers and their peers (and my ds would have been one of them had I left him in public school). One of his friends has even attempted suicide. But these are the kids who don't have a mean bone in their bodies, and therefore aren't in the popular clique (and thankfully, don't drink and party to gain popularity). So, I think group mentality follows us as long as there is a group and we can classify ourselves and reclassify into narrower boxes. It is unfortunate that there always has to be an "us" and a "them." And adults are just as guilty as the kids, and I think that's where the kids learn it. I've heard the parents whisper to their kids "not to hang around with that kid," and I've seen the teachers in 1st grade start the tone of who is acceptable and who is not. The kids pick up on this and it stays that way for 12 years. Sad.

[Carmen_and_Company]

Watching this thread with great interest because I enrolled my dd, Storm, in two summer Inter-district math and science programs for girls.

[Jackie in AR]

I think there is an unspoken belief that suffering in school will produce better citizens, and that many overlook bullying in order to produce those better people/citizens.

 

Oh, yes, I agree. I can't tell you how many times my SIL (a ps teacher) has made sure to state within my earshot that kids need to learn how to deal with childhood bullying in order to get along "in the real world." And a friend of mine whose ds 13 has been bullied this past year in a private Christian school keeps telling me (and herself) how that is building his character and will really help him throughout the rest of his life.

 

I just don't understand that way of thinking.

[dtsmamtj]

Being bullied, etc. didn't build character in me - I am now almost 43 and JUST beginning to feel comfortable outside of the "herd" mentality - sad. I have been awake at nights wondering if I (our family) was going to be included in an event that I knew another family was hosting, etc. UGH!!!!

 

 

T

[Michelle in MO]

Oh, yes, I agree. I can't tell you how many times my SIL (a ps teacher) has made sure to state within my earshot that kids need to learn how to deal with childhood bullying in order to get along "in the real world." And a friend of mine whose ds 13 has been bullied this past year in a private Christian school keeps telling me (and herself) how that is building his character and will really help him throughout the rest of his life.

 

I just don't understand that way of thinking.

 

Usually this type of "socialization" is harmful. I do realize it can happen in homeschool groups, too. It's part of human nature, unfortunately, to congregate in "herds" and ignore those who are different than we are.

 

Unfortunately, many otherwise good schools, public and private, are losing good families because of a negative social culture in the school. In a thread I started a while ago, about what I would like to see in an ideal Christian school, I remember that Plaid Dad wisely stated that the school culture was of great importance.

 

Highlands Latin School has changed their website, but I remember from their website last year that their home page explicitly stated something like this: "One of the first things parents will notice upon visiting HLS is the absence of social cliques." I think that's a great goal for schools to work towards!

[Mandy in TN]

I agree with Pam that "Homeschooled kids also have their cliques; they're just more polite about it."

 

I agree that any time you have a large group of people (little kids, teenagers, adults, hs, ps, sahm...) they tend to separate into smaller groups. They often do this simply based on the people with whom they are comfortable and this can just mean the people that they have known the longest. Many of them don't intend to be exclusive (This is especially true of guys.). They just don't think about it. You can think of it as social auto-pilot.

 

My boys have several friends that they have done things with for years now. When someone new has come along, I (and the mothers of the other boys) have on occassion had to encourage our young men to be inclusive. A couple of years ago this group picked up another young man who is totally integrated like he was here forever. Last year we picked up another and just this spring two more (one of them in ps).

 

We have also lost several. A couple of years ago one started ps in 8th grade and stopped coming around. Several other families have had other interests, health issues, teaching styles, and/ or parenting styles that led to them drifting into other circles.

 

I know that I have no interest in hanging out where I am not welcome and would not expect my boys to do so either. When I say that I am a liberal, divorced, old-Earth Christian married to a Muslim, I can tell almost immediately the hs moms that have no desire for their family to spend time with mine. They are still polite (This is important. Keep doors open. Situations may change. People may change.), but I know that either subtly or overtly my children will not be hanging out with theirs (This is fine. I would want them to feel comfortable about their child's friendships just like I want to be comfortable with the friendships that my children build.).

 

Anyway- if you want to help your child find friends, I do think (unless your child is very outgoing) that you also have to be friendly. If you find families with whom you share a similar interests, teaching styles, parenting styles, or religious beliefs, you as the parent can invite those families to your home or you can plan outings. You can develop relationships with the other mothers. Even if your kids are not the same age (the boys that my boys hang out with range from 12 to 17), they will hang out. They will be polite to each other. They will form their own group that will attract other kids who also have similar interests.

 

My boys (The same can be said of an overwhelming majority of their friends.) play video games, like Monty Python, play Warhammer, and like animals. Although they vary in athletic ability, this is a very physical group. They like to hit each other with pool noodles, throw balls (usually at each other), shoot air soft guns, etc. Although individually some of the guys are quiet, the group as a whole is loud and rowdy.

 

If I (living in Middle TN) had put out an ad saying that I was a liberal, divorced, old-Earth Christian, homeschooling sahm married to a Muslim looking for friendship building situations for a couple of rowdy boys, I may not have gotten any replies. However, beginning with a newborn hanging out in a front pack the first year we homeschooled, I put myself out there. I was honest about who I was, how I parented, and how I hs. (How you educate is almost always a safe topic and will help you locate families using a similar approach.)

 

I don't mean to imply that we immediately found friendships. We were well into our second year at home before I felt like we had found a niche and there have been friendship ups and downs even in this group. But- put yourself our there! Talk to other moms. If your child isn't comfortable asking for phone numbers, you ask for them.

 

Oh, this is also true when putting your kids in a traditional classroom or switching from one school to another.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[Kathy in MD]

Homeschooled kids also have their cliques; they're just more polite about it.

 

 

 

It's dangerous to generally make generalizations ;)

 

My neice has learned the hard way when some girls in her homeschool group referred to her a wh**e. My neice is very striking and dresses to match. But at the time she didn't even like holding hands with a boy! But apparently the way she dressed was all that was needed for nice, conservative girls to use nasty names that could ruin her reputation.

[Kathy in MD]

....

Highlands Latin School has changed their website, but I remember from their website last year that their home page explicitly stated something like this: "One of the first things parents will notice upon visiting HLS is the absence of social cliques." I think that's a great goal for schools to work towards!

 

How does the school do this? And Mandy, how do you teach your kids' group to include and encourage newcomers?

 

As many have said, it's so easy to hang around with old friends and avoid new ones. Especially if those in the group are shy, socially awkward, or have a terrible time with names or faces? (The last is why I tend to be backwards in chuch :( )

[Storm Bay]

Homeschooled kids also have their cliques; they're just more polite about it.

 

 

 

This is true, although they're not always more polite about it. It can happen in neighbourhoods with lots of kids, too, even if they don't all go to school together.

[Michelle in MO]

How does the school do this? And Mandy, how do you teach your kids' group to include and encourage newcomers?

 

As many have said, it's so easy to hang around with old friends and avoid new ones. Especially if those in the group are shy, socially awkward, or have a terrible time with names or faces? (The last is why I tend to be backwards in chuch :( )

 

this on their website (I didn't see it this morning when I checked) I've wanted to visit the school to find out. I would imagine it would begin with teachers making a real effort to be inclusive of all the students, setting a good example, not allowing kids to pair themselves off for different activities (i.e., being pro-active), etc. But, I would love to visit the school some day just to observe what they do.

 

I think Mandy in TN handled her situation very well and found her niche. I think as a parent in a new situation, trying to introduce your kids to that situation, you have to be extroverted (even if that's not your natural tendency) and get out there and talk to people. Mandy was open and honest about her background and beliefs and eventually found friendships that worked. Good for you, Mandy! :thumbup:

[Mandy in TN]

And Mandy, how do you teach your kids' group to include and encourage newcomers?

 

As many have said, it's so easy to hang around with old friends and avoid new ones. Especially if those in the group are shy, socially awkward, or have a terrible time with names or faces? (The last is why I tend to be backwards in chuch )

 

With my boys and their friends, I try to model the behavior that I would like to see from them.

 

When I have had things in our home, or we have had teen lunches, or a new teen comes to our tutorial, or we would go to park day, etc. I introduce myself to the teen as well as their parent. I don't just point in the direction of the other teens. I take the teen over and introduce them. By introduce I don't mean that I simply say the new teen's name and walk away. I say everyone else's name as well.

 

At tutorial the few times that I have taken new children around the school, I ask them about what classes they are interested in taking and what hobbies they have. I try to introduce them to kids who may will be taking the same classes or have similar interests. The goal is for the kids to take up the conversation and not to have to talk myself.

 

I try to tell new hs families who have boys in the range of my boys the things that I know are happening (outings and such) and I tell them which e-mail loops have other things.

 

At this point my boys know what I mean when I tell him to take a teen around and introduce him. However, a few years back when my boys were younger, two of the mothers and I had to pull our sons aside and explain to them that they were such a closely knit group that it was making it difficult for new kids to feel welcome. We explained that they needed to be aware that there were other children and to make an effort to include everyone. They took no offense. They had been so involved with their own playing that they had been unaware that their actions were excluding others.

 

I just spoke to my 14yo and he not only remembered the conversation, but pointed out that this was the same year that they made the friend that has totally integrated like he was here forever!

 

Oh, and if you have problems with names, try to say the person's name three times with they introduce themselves. Or the second time you see them just be honest and tell them that you are terrible with names and would they be so kind as to tell you again. As far as I know, no one has ever been angry with me for forgetting their name. :001_smile:

 

HTH-

Mandy

[Mandy in TN]

I think Mandy in TN handled her situation very well and found her niche. I think as a parent in a new situation, trying to introduce your kids to that situation, you have to be extroverted (even if that's not your natural tendency) and get out there and talk to people. Mandy was open and honest about her background and beliefs and eventually found friendships that worked. Good for you, Mandy! :thumbup:

 

Thank you! I am certainly better at this sort of thing now than when I was a teen.

Mandy

[Storm Bay]

this on their website (I didn't see it this morning when I checked) I've wanted to visit the school to find out. I would imagine it would begin with teachers making a real effort to be inclusive of all the students, setting a good example, not allowing kids to pair themselves off for different activities (i.e., being pro-active), etc. But, I would love to visit the school some day just to observe what they do.

 

:

 

I think age makes a big difference. I went to 4 high schools. For the teacher to pair up kids in middle school or high school could end up in even bigger disasters. You can't make all kids like each other. I hate cliques, and in school had friends in different groups, but friends I had, thankfully, but how many varied greatly with the school, and I had by far the most friends in the school where I grew up and one other where I found a good niche for myself. But if I'd been paired up with a bully (and they're not all obvious bullies that teachers get--some of the meanest kids are very subtle and devious and never actually get in trouble themselves) it would have been horrid. Even when I was in a school where I had almost no friends (and for a little while, none because my first friends there dropped me as they rose up the social ranks and I had to start again) I would have hated to have the teacher pair me up.

 

I really think that kids en masse is a tough situation to be in, particularly if you're the new kid. It's often better to be able to get to know kids separately first. However, that can backfire. One of my brothers ended up going to a private high school for a few years with the son of old family friends (we met before these 2 boys were born) and while they'd played together extremely well all their lives, they had nothing to do with each other while at that school (one was a science "nerd," the other in the "cool" group.) They get along fine now, but if they were in the same city aren't likely to be in the same social circles due to their very different lives.

[4wildberrys]

What a great thread! We are dealing with a situation in which our former good homeschool friends sent their oldest daughter to PS for a class this last school year---and she matured and made a ton of friends. Her 1 year younger sister does everything she does---so they both have a TON of new, fun friends with more permissive parents. That has left my dd in the DUST!!! She is a little less mature and socially aware (In a very good way) than these girls now---and they are totally mean to her!!! Put her down in front of the PS girls, tell these kids how we are so strict---etc., just basically make my dd feel like a sheltered reject who does not fit in. Basically, these girls all acted silly together and got along---now that the sisters have entered "the real world" so to speak---they way my dd acts has not changed and she is ridiculed and put down for it. This really would not be such a problem if this town was not SO small. Since we started homeschooling---our entire lives have revolved around the other 2 families in our church that homeschool and the church. Now that this is changing---we are in a major social limbo and licking our "rejected" wounds :glare: It is amazing how FAST that nasty attitude towards others without mercy can take over when the kids start melding into the PS social scene (although I do realize NOT all PS kids are mean or bad ;))

[PamJH]

I like your interesting background and would think it would be fodder for some great conversations.

 

I think being different could be part of our problem. We run a secular homeschool (we don't ignore faith; the kids love exploring different religions and seeing how they relate to history and current events), but almost all the families in our group are running Biblically based homeschools. I'm sure they don't think we'll corrupt their kids, but you wouldn't believe how many of them have turned down invitations to visit us. It's pretty hard to explain that to my kids.

 

I don't blather on about our secularity (is that a word?), but I also won't stand by and allow anyone to criticize what we do and don't do. One lady in our group actually chided me severely for allowing my kids to read Harry Potter books as well as see the movies. She said I'd be sorry some day (I'd like to see the day I'll be sorry to watch Alan Rickman in any movie!). I was at the gathering long enough to hear her talking about me. This woman has two daughters just my dd's age, but of course, they can't get together.

 

I won't ramble further. I just wish things were a bit different. I just hate cliques of any kind.

[Michelle in MO]

I think age makes a big difference. I went to 4 high schools. For the teacher to pair up kids in middle school or high school could end up in even bigger disasters. You can't make all kids like each other. I hate cliques, and in school had friends in different groups, but friends I had, thankfully, but how many varied greatly with the school, and I had by far the most friends in the school where I grew up and one other where I found a good niche for myself. But if I'd been paired up with a bully (and they're not all obvious bullies that teachers get--some of the meanest kids are very subtle and devious and never actually get in trouble themselves) it would have been horrid. Even when I was in a school where I had almost no friends (and for a little while, none because my first friends there dropped me as they rose up the social ranks and I had to start again) I would have hated to have the teacher pair me up.

 

I really think that kids en masse is a tough situation to be in, particularly if you're the new kid. It's often better to be able to get to know kids separately first. However, that can backfire. One of my brothers ended up going to a private high school for a few years with the son of old family friends (we met before these 2 boys were born) and while they'd played together extremely well all their lives, they had nothing to do with each other while at that school (one was a science "nerd," the other in the "cool" group.) They get along fine now, but if they were in the same city aren't likely to be in the same social circles due to their very different lives.

 

grammar school/age kids. I probably would have reacted the same in high school if I'd been forced to be with someone particularly nasty. We have our three girls enrolled in a private school for next year (30 min. away) and I know that in science they divide the kids up for labs in pairs. Still, at the high school level---I don't know what you do.

 

I've never visited Highlands Latin School, but I just remember this statement from their website and thought, "I'd love to visit that school and see how they make it work."

[Mandy in TN]

One lady in our group actually chided me severely for allowing my kids to read Harry Potter books as well as see the movies. She said I'd be sorry some day (I'd like to see the day I'll be sorry to watch Alan Rickman in any movie!). I was at the gathering long enough to hear her talking about me. This woman has two daughters just my dd's age, but of course, they can't get together.

 

I won't ramble further. I just wish things were a bit different. I just hate cliques of any kind.

 

One of the out-spoken ladies in our area is a conservative, young-Earth, Eastern Orthodox (that's a little different for midTN) Christian. She felt the same way about Harry Potter and didn't do annually testing with her kids. I appreciate her candor. I enjoy time spend with her. We have differences in opinion, but I admire her ability to clearly state her mind.

 

Our children never bonded, but that was their choice not ours. Now her kids have read the books. She advocates annual testing to prepare for college testing. She is of course still conservative, but some of her thoughts have changed. When her children were younger she had logical reasons for her decisions and now that they are older she has logical reasons why some of these views have changed.

 

Rather than affirming my opinions, she expresses different ones and causes me to think about mine. We don't often run in the same circles these days, but when I do see her I go to her. I talk to her. I sit with her. I count her as a friend.

 

I encourage you to sit with this woman and listen to her. Allow her to talk freely face to face without fear of retribution instead of behind your back. If you must respond, respond with kindness. For example, in regard to the Harry Potter series explain the positive things about the chararacter of Harry. He is loyal to his friends. He has to deal with bullies in the form of authority figures as well as peers. He must handle many of the normal teenage insecurities and these are wonderful oppurtunities for dialogue with your child. CS Lewis and JRR Tolkien were both Christian writers who used magic extensively in their writing and while Harry Potter is not a Christian allegory it certainly has all the hallmarks of a work permeated with western Christian philosophy. (ex. Although Harry is an inexperienced, flawed young man and there are many things he doesn't understand, he still triumphs over evil.)

 

After all it is her child, if for some reason she feels that these books are inappropriate at this time, then maybe they are not a good choice for her home. Let her know that you respect her ability to make these decisions- even if you feel that for your home the reasons are invalid.

 

I like having friends who I speak with daily/ regularly with whom things like this are not an issue. I guess that makes us a clique- a clique where perhaps people who don't read Harry Potter wouldn't feel comfortable. I certainly would want these women to also have people in their life with whom these things are not an issue.

 

HTH-

Mandy