AimeeM Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 ... before moving onto Algebra? I ask because it seems to be the general consensus among adults over 40 (that I know anyway), pre-algebra was never taught as a subject when they attended school. A firm foundation and repetition in arithmetic grades k-8 (Catholic school; k-8 considered elementary), then straight to algebra, no problem. I guess I'm wondering why pre-algebra is necessary at all. My husband was looking through the Key To series that we have, mentioned that by adding an integers study and introducing exponents, order of operations; basically you learn everything you need to know to enter algebra prepared. I trust him. He's fantastic with numbers. I was the one insisting we needed a pre-algebra program :tongue_smilie:. What has been your experience with this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NittanyJen Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Pre-algebra is basically an invention for kids who need an extra year of help before diving into algebra. Either they are young and speeding through math, or have gone through math without true mastery and need an extra year to tie it all together, or have been using a curriculum that ddn't include everything they needed for algebra for some reason (rob ably to sell more books, ie, a "pre-algebra" level). Pre-algebra as an actual mathematical discipline does not exist. If you decide to provide a year of pre-algebra, expect a year of solidifying basic arithmetic, filling in any concepts arbitrarily not covered, and/or starting early algebra. If your child has had an excellent foundation in arithmetic and word problems, and is developmentally ready to tackle algebra, then pre-algebra is completely unnecessary. The only caveat to that is that these days, many programs are designed to leave out key skills to force you into that extra year. You can get around that by doing what your husband has done; suss out what skills were left out of arithmetic in your program and spend 2-3 weeks covering them instead of an entire year, then move into algebra. It is really about knowing your child and what he or she needs (rather than what you need; a surprising number of parents foist their own math insecurities off onto their kids). If the child needs that extra year, do it and don't worry about what it is called. If they don't, skip it with confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AimeeM Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 We were thinking about finishing the Key To books, adding in a month of integer work with MM and then letting her do a pre-algebra program over the summer (for hammering it all in firmly)... and then letting her *jump*. I'm not sure about it because, frankly, I'm in no position to teach algebra. The super mathy guy (aka Hubster) travels far too often to do it himself. Pre-algebra is basically an invention for kids who need an extra year of help before diving into algebra. Either they are young and speeding through math, or have gone through math without true mastery and need an extra year to tie it all together, or have been using a curriculum that ddn't include everything they needed for algebra for some reason (rob ably to sell more books, ie, a "pre-algebra" level). Pre-algebra as an actual mathematical discipline does not exist. If you decide to provide a year of pre-algebra, expect a year of solidifying basic arithmetic, filling in any concepts arbitrarily not covered, and/or starting early algebra. If your child has had an excellent foundation in arithmetic and word problems, and is developmentally ready to tackle algebra, then pre-algebra is completely unnecessary. The only caveat to that is that these days, many programs are designed to leave out key skills to force you into that extra year. You can get around that by doing what your husband has done; suss out what skills were left out of arithmetic in your program and spend 2-3 weeks covering them instead of an entire year, then move into algebra. It is really about knowing your child and what he or she needs (rather than what you need; a surprising number of parents foist their own math insecurities off onto their kids). If the child needs that extra year, do it and don't worry about what it is called. If they don't, skip it with confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnrmom Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 My kids take a science class at a high end math and science center, and the instructors there are emphatic that there is no such thing as "pre-algebra." It's like working on division for an extra semester and calling it "pre-fractions." The definition of algebra is: A branch of mathematics that substitutes letters for numbers. I think educators and textbooks tend to make algebra sound like this whole mysterious new world of math, but it's just another way of working with the same numbers you've been working with the whole time. I don't see how there could be anything "pre" about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 In order to successfully move to algebra, a student must have mastered arithmetic (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, exponents) with positive and negative integers and fractions (including percent and decimals). Whether this proficiency is the result of a course called "pre-algebra" or one called "math" is completely irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmoe Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I haven't found pre-algebra to be necessary. It was added as a class at many schools when it was decided a certain number of math classes were needed for graduation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myeightkiddies Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 :iagree: with the above posts. It isn't necessary, unless the child needs that delay for mastery purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenjenn Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Agreed. Even today, in some middle schools simply offer "7th grade math" and "8th grade math" with Algebra and Geometry being taught to 7th and 8th graders who are ready to do so, with "Pre-Algebra" being offered at the high school for students not yet ready for Algebra (since there's not really such a thing called "9th grade math" at that point.) Someone who used Teaching Textbooks with a middle-schooler told me Math 7 and Pre-Algebra are practically the same thing. The child completed Math 7, never had any trouble with it, so when she returned to school she enrolled in Algebra at school still kept a high grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I'm under 40 and never took a course titled pre-algebra either. Pre-algebra was basically 6th, 7th, and 8th grade math. I then did algebra in high school. Kids that weren't ready for algebra took pre-algebra in 9th grade. I also didn't take pre-calculus. They had us do Algebra II/Trig and then go straight to AP Calculus (AB, but with the option of studying on our own with the help of our teacher and taking the BC test, which I did). I'm leaning toward not doing pre-algebra with my oldest unless he does AoPS (but I don't think he'll be ready for that). Instead, I'm currently leaning toward starting an Algebra program that's considered good for young students, and stretching out the first half of the book for a year, then maybe go back and use a more difficult Algebra text the next year for "Algebra". Still not sure yet though. I have another year to decide. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2bee Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 In a word? No. I went from a generic 8th grade textbook to a generic Algebra textbook. I've never taken anything called PreAlgebra and when ever I look at a PreAlgebra text, I see nothing that I didn't see at some point or another in my 1st-8th grade mathbooks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I ask because it seems to be the general consensus among adults over 40 (that I know anyway), pre-algebra was never taught as a subject when they attended school. A firm foundation and repetition in arithmetic grades k-8 (Catholic school; k-8 considered elementary), then straight to algebra, no problem. I guess I'm wondering why pre-algebra is necessary at all. I think you answered your own question. Pre-algebra wasn't taught because kids took arithmetic from k-8, so they covered all the pre-algebra subjects. When people want their kids to move into algebra in 6th or 7th grade, they need some way to ensure that all the arithmetic has been taught and their kids are solid on it. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChandlerMom Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) Hey, I'm (just) over 40 and took pre-Algebra in school! In my case, pre-A was the math class the more gifted math kiddos took in 8th grade while the rest where in "8th grade math". It wasn't just review, but review with an extension to algebra. In other words, we might do a fraction problem, then do the same type using algebraic variables. We were introduced to "x" and solving simple equations, even pairs of simultaneous. I guess it would have better been called "Algebra Lite" since we weren't getting the full on high school algebra course, either. It was more like a hybrid between 8th grade math and Algebra. Our classes didn't get "names" until high school. Then I took Algebra, Geometry, and Pre-Calculus. Yeah, again with the PRE-math! :rofl: If I'd stayed for a 4th year, it would have been AP Calc. @Tara: I think you nailed it -- in "our" day, Algebra was a high school subject, but now they start using symbolic math in 2nd grade (with pictures of kittens and sailboats instead of {x,y,z} ) and push algebra into late MS, so need a class to make sure arithmetic "stuck". Part of the repeat until all the kids in the class get it approach. ;) Edited January 8, 2012 by ChandlerMom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I'm over 40 and I had a course in 7th grade called Prealgebra with Algebra I following in 8th grade. As for teaching prealgebra, I've done it both ways. Both of my kids were ready for algebra early (older one in 5th grade and younger one in 4th). For the older one, we did Jacobs Algebra over two years. The first 6 chapters of Jacobs are what is covered in a rigorous prealgebra course (by rigorous I mean that the course is focusing on algebra and not on a big review of arithmetic). The younger one is currently using Derek Owens' prealgebra course, which, like the first chapters of Jacobs, is an excellent bridge to algebra. So prealgebra is not absolutely necessary but a good program can offer a more gradual bridge to algebra that might be helpful to some kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AimeeM Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 I don't think she'd be emotionally ready for it, frankly, without some level of pre-algebra that perhaps dips a toe into algebra. I think you answered your own question. Pre-algebra wasn't taught because kids took arithmetic from k-8, so they covered all the pre-algebra subjects. When people want their kids to move into algebra in 6th or 7th grade, they need some way to ensure that all the arithmetic has been taught and their kids are solid on it. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenjenn Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Oh and all of this also applies to "Pre-Calculus", which I notice exists now but did not when I was a kid. Actually "Algebra II" included advanced algebra and some trigonometry, and "Trigonometry" was a semester of trigonometry and then something they at the time called "Math Analysis", which covered things like series, limits, and logarithms, that you'd ultimately need for Calculus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chepyl Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I took 7th grade math, then Algebra. Half of our class did this, half did pre-algebra in 8th grade. Class placement was based on math grades and test scores. I went through calculus with all A's. It is only necessary if someone does not quite understand all of the math concepts yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chepyl Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Oh and all of this also applies to "Pre-Calculus", which I notice exists now but did not when I was a kid. Actually "Algebra II" included advanced algebra and some trigonometry, and "Trigonometry" was a semester of trigonometry and then something they at the time called "Math Analysis", which covered things like series, limits, and logarithms, that you'd ultimately need for Calculus. I did PreCalc with trig. Basically it was like amd Algebra 3 and trig class. I would have hated a full year of trig. We only took PreCalc if we did algebra in 8th grade. Those who took algebra in 9th took Math analysis as seniors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 In order to successfully move to algebra, a student must have mastered arithmetic (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, exponents) with positive and negative integers and fractions (including percent and decidedmals).Whether this proficiency is the result of a course called "pre-algebra" or one called "math" is completely irrelevant. Heck, when I was in school (in Canada) math was just "math" through 12th grade. What is taught in the US as discrete subjects was integrated into a single math stream. At that time we did have Grade 13, with higher level courses in Algebra, Calculus and Functions & Relations (with a good enough score, some universities would allow exemptions from, but not credit for first year level courses). I think it's still done inappropriate similar way except there's no official Grade 13, and university bound kids are expected to work the higher level courses into their four-year schedule (something many of us did even in the old days). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NittanyJen Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Oh and all of this also applies to "Pre-Calculus", which I notice exists now but did not when I was a kid. Actually "Algebra II" included advanced algebra and some trigonometry, and "Trigonometry" was a semester of trigonometry and then something they at the time called "Math Analysis", which covered things like series, limits, and logarithms, that you'd ultimately need for Calculus. Bingo. "Pre-Calculus" is just rebranded trig and analysis, to make parents think their little darlings are doing something more advanced. Everything new is really old, just repackaged ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Hey, I'm (just) over 40 and took pre-Algebra in school! In my case, pre-A was the math class the more gifted math kiddos took in 8th grade while the rest where in "8th grade math". It wasn't just review, but review with an extension to algebra. In other words, we might do a fraction problem, then do the same type using algebraic variables. We were introduced to "x" and solving simple equations, even pairs of simultaneous. I guess it would have better been called "Algebra Lite" since we weren't getting the full on high school algebra course, either. It was more like a hybrid between 8th grade math and Algebra. That's what I took, only it was in 7th grade and I'm in my mid-30's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Bingo. "Pre-Calculus" is just rebranded trig and analysis, to make parents think their little darlings are doing something more advanced. Everything new is really old, just repackaged ;) I took a course labeled "Trigonometry and Analytical Geometry", but the BOOK was someone's (beginning with a Z, I think) Precalculus :). And my "Math 7" book was Saxon Algebra 1/2 (which I hated with a passion). My school had kids in 7/6, 8/7 and Algebra 1/2, but it was all labeled "Math 7"-only one was "Accelerated", one was "honors", and one was just "Math 7". 8th grade got kind of strange though, because if you took "Math 7 Accelerated", you took Algebra 1 in 8th, if you took "Math 7 honors", you took "Prealgebra" in 8th (which used the same Algebra 1/2 book), and if you took Math 7, you took Math 8, using 8/7. I figure it was all a matter of making parents happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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