Israeli Women Losing Their Freedom?

[Aelwydd]

I've read several articles recently about this growing problem of ultra-conservative religious groups in Israel harassing and denigrating women and girls. Here's the most recent one: Women Fight Israeli Bus Segregation.

 

The 8 year old referenced in that article? She was spat upon by grown men and called a slut because the long-sleeved shirt and ankle-length skirt she wore was apparently not modest enough.

 

Sometimes it's "dressed up" in terms like "honoring women" and "preserving their dignity," but stripped down to its core element, the mentality is remarkably similar among what I'd term "hyper-conservative" religious groups, be they Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or otherwise.

 

Sometimes I wonder what the difference really is between religions when their darker elements are so consistently in agreement about how to mistreat and subjugate one-half of their populations.

[astrid]

Wow. That enrages me. I agree with your comments completely, A.

 

astrid

[usetoschool]

I heard a story about this on NPR the other day. The girls were on their way to a fairly religious and conservative school, but apparently not orthodox enough for these men. It seems like there is no end to the ways people can hate each other in the name of religion. What was most bothersome to me was that these were young girls that were being spit on and abused.

 

It didn't seem like a wide spread issue in the story that I heard. More of the focus was on the ultra-orthodox and their actions then on women in general in Israel. Maybe I missed how pervasive the issue is.

[Veritaserum]

What's wrong with these people's brains? Seriously, who spits on children?!

[Mrs Mungo]

That is terrible. Those who don't think a focus on female modesty subjugates women should read that article.

[Lady Florida.]

Tell me again how this "honors" women?

 

 

Sometimes I wonder what the difference really is between religions when their darker elements are so consistently in agreement about how to mistreat and subjugate one-half of their populations.

 

The differences are superficial.

[astrid]

That is terrible. Those who don't think a focus on female modesty subjugates women should read that article.

 

That is EXACTLY what I wanted to post, but didn't. EXACTLY. I read the "Pretty" thread before bed last night and couldn't get it out of my mind. NOw I get to work and see this one. It is truly horrifying.

 

astrid

[cathmom]

It's interesting reading this thread right after the one about allowing a 7yo to go into the grocery store alone LOL!

[Guest submarines]

Shrug. Par for the course.

 

If I voice my displeasure about being treated as invisible when these type of groups are at the mall, people tell me the best defense is to reach out and touch the man. Apparently that will cause the entire family to see me, and they will cease pretending that I am not there and actually not run in to me with the stroller or shopping cart. It appears that tolerance is not part of their religion.

 

It is not just "their religion." It is any extremist group, religious or not.

[astrid]

My dad always used to say, "Beware of idealogues." Wise advice, in my opinion.

 

astrid

[Caitilin]

That is terrible. Those who don't think a focus on female modesty subjugates women should read that article.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Ester Maria]

Two things.

 

First, which is legally relevant, is that these buses are operated by a private company (they do serve the "public", but in the very essence, the transportation is private). This fact alone does not disallow anyone who does not identify with certain segments of population to use the transport that was originally intended for those - if they wish to accept their rules. In some segments of the Orthodox Jewish world, men and women are segregated on all levels (from completely segregated eduacation from kindergarten through university, to segregation in general public sphere - men and women sitting on different sides of a conference room, in different areas of buses, men and women dancing separately on weddings, even walking different sides of the street sometimes). You do not have to like it, but the problem is, to what extent can you have a "problem" with something that a segment of a society practices largely voluntarily and largely in a private sphere. People typically say to others who do not like the way things are operated, "Move your interests into private sphere." That is exactly what these people did, by de facto creating a micro-society of its own within a larger society, with its infrastructure. They did the same thing in the US in many camps, although maybe not with private transportation.

 

Second, very few of these people are actively trying to enforce their ideals of how things ought to be done and how a public life ought to be more modest to the wider public. Most of them are perfectly content to exercise their idiosyncrasies within their own micro-society, and perfectly content to largely ignore the rest of the country. In fact, some of them do not even recognize the country (yes, there is actually such a thing as opposition not only to the concrete State of Israel, but to any kind of Jewish statehood, amongst a subset of religious Jews). Most of them are not openly coercive towards anyone else, they just wish to be left alone.

 

The problem with "being left alone" is that they do depend on the public financing, and have equal rights (by a state they sometimes do not even recognize), but are miraculously good at skirting the equal responsibilities. A huge part of this subset of society is economically fully dependent on the state, literally being financed to focus on a full time religious study, legally avoiding the military duty, sending their children to schools which manage to skirt the state curriculum for secular subjects and yet depend upon public money, etc. IOW, there is a lot of financial hypocrisy in the air - in the US they are not the least bit less "extremist" in their actual religious views and in some places they also have a de facto micro-socities of their own, but they cannot behave this way on public money, i.e. they actually have to work to provide for their families (women are more likely to take on the working role because men tend to study full time) or find other independent sources of financing. It is primarily because of the financial dependence, and the fact that they are more "equal" than the others, that large sectors of the secular or mainstream religious Israelis have an issue with them - nobody has to actually use their (private) facilities.

[Mrs Mungo]

First, which is legally relevant, is that these buses are operated by a private company (they do serve the "public", but in the very essence, the transportation is private).

 

Do you have some sort of documentation that explains the arrangement? I'm not questioning your honesty at all, but I am finding it hard to reconcile the various sources of information.

 

From the article:

For years, Israeli women have been pressured into moving to the rear of public buses serving strictly religious Jews. Now, in confrontations reminiscent of the era of Rosa Parks, women are pushing back.

[ravinlunachick]

It's not just happening in Israel. It's happening here in the US, on public buses in NYC.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/20/nyregion/bus-segregation-of-jewish-women-prompts-review.html

[chiguirre]

Wow! I'm gobsmacked that someone would have the temerity to order a uniformed soldier to the back of the bus. Talk about ungrateful!

[stephanier.1765]

Frankly, it scares me. The last thing this world needs in a another country subjugating it's women.

[Ester Maria]

Do you have some sort of documentation that explains the arrangement? I'm not questioning your honesty at all, but I am finding it hard to reconcile the various sources of information.

I searched, but I did not manage to find any official documentation that explains the financial arrangements between the bus companies and the State / city. This is not a unique network of State-owned or City-owned buses, but rather several distinct providers with their own lines - I do not know about the nitty gritty details of the financial arrangement with the state. However, much of what is de facto "private" in Israel is not entirely private in the sense that it is in the US (no tax payer money whatsoever in it), and that is highly problematic because it allows for different interpretations of what is okay and what is not.

 

You have to keep in mind WHICH line that was, by WHICH public transport operater, and whether the discrimination was legally enforced by a driver or other "official" people you confronted over that problem (they cannot make you sit in the back legally, the separation is voluntary, BUT, the problems appear if you are a secular minority using those lines and feel that no lines should be adjusted to the preferences of the majority of users / target users). The problem is, people are sheep and do not react - if every single passenger that felt coerced into doing something that by law or explicit instructions he did not have to do took it to court, such pressure and intimidation would not exist. However, the flip side is, since we are talking matters which are on the verge of public and private (IIRC, the ultra-Orthodox wanted / had their entirely private lines because the present companies did not want to cater to their wishes, but then Egged sued them for threatening their monopoly or something like that? Anyhow, the result was that some of those companies started to tailor their service in this regard to the UO population on lines which were predominately UO.), the lines are often quite blurred. I personally feel that there should be explicit, non-ambiguous regulations about this: either you mandate it (no bus line that I know of explicitly does), either you allow it "on a voluntary basis" but then legally prosecute those who coerce others into doing it "voluntarily" (the current arrangement, minus the legal back-up), either you disallow it (difficult to handle in practice) - and it must be clear where is the State's role in all of that. So far, the lines have either been private with "assumed" agreement, either this "semi-private" (not even sure how to call it, as I did not find specific financial regulations) with "voluntary" segregation - there have been NO lines with mandatory segregation and it cannot be legally enforced. Instead of whining to the media, people should take these issues directly to the court if they want a change and clarity in expectations and financial regulations.

 

Whenever there are media outbursts about this issue, there is always some Jewish millionaire who plots on creating a fully independent network of buses for the UO fully privately financed with no grey areas whatsoever, but so far nobody actually did it long term (and then there are logistics issues as to which stops they would be allowed to use, etc.). :D

 

But again, I do not know the specifics of these arrangements, so a disclaimer there.

 

So, not sure what to tell you. In Israel many things are in these hard-to-define grey areas, but it is typically in everyone's interest more to keep status quo than to clarify whether they want a theocracy or a secular state. I could tell you of many instances of problematic practices of de facto inserting religion into everyday life, but avoiding to make regulations about it so as not to have it officially a religious state. I do not think this is a matter of women losing rights specifically - rather, I think it is only symptomatic of "chareidization" of some things as they gain more power in numbers as a group. When Israel was founded it was founded with the idea of being a secular state, while "Jewish" simply meant an ethnicity - political Zionism was almost exclusively a secular movement. Now there are attempts at justifying religion in public space and publicly funded by saying that the "Jewish" has religious connotations, or trying to present it as "culture".

 

As far as Israel's secularism is concerned, I cannot agree that a state can be secular if it subsidizes full time yeshiva studies, mandates the instruction of the Hebrew Bible in schools (you cannot graduate in Israel without taking exit exams which include Bible), has in its state apparatus - army - special units that are "men-only" or "compatible with Jewish learning" (as in, half day you deal with Torah, the other half day with tanks and rifles), if it has an official state funded instance of army rabbinate, if religious groups have a total monopoly on the issues of marriage (no institution of civil marriage), if private religious schools are publicly funded, and so forth. Unfortunately, despite the attempts to smooth the waters and secularize the country by many people, the power of numbers does its job - as the time passes, if anything, the UO's preferences will have to be taken into account even more seriously due to their political power. So, it is NOT an issue of women rights specifically, but an issue of a lack of clarity as to the relationship between the religion and state. Not that these things do not happen in other countries too (few are countries, like America, that have entirely cut those ties), but in Israel it is more extreme and easier to "insert" into everyday life with little stuff like this.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Ester Maria

[Mrs Mungo]

Ester, I can see what you are getting at, but it looks from the other link that something *extremely similar* has been happening in Orthodox communities within the US. And this is why division of church and state works out for the best.

[Ester Maria]

Ester, I can see what you are getting at, but it looks from the other link that something *extremely similar* has been happening in Orthodox communities within the US. And this is why division of church and state works out for the best.

Oh, I agree with you :) - but *they*, the Israeli nationals, do not necessarily share the sentiment that a complete separation works out for the best. And, at the end of the day, as much as it rubs me personally the wrong way, I concede that it is their country and they may organize the financial and other matters between the religion and the state as they see fit. The only thing I, personally, would like to see is an official recognition of whatever type of organization it is, because currently, it is an attempt to sit at two chairs to keep all sides at least somewhat content.

[farouk]

I certainly wouldn't single out Israel as a country where this kind of occurrence may happen.

[Mrs Mungo]

Oh, I agree with you :) - but *they*, the Israeli nationals, do not necessarily share the sentiment that a complete separation works out for the best. And, at the end of the day, as much as it rubs me personally the wrong way, I concede that it is their country and they may organize the financial and other matters between the religion and the state as they see fit. The only thing I, personally, would like to see is an official recognition of whatever type of organization it is, because currently, it is an attempt to sit at two chairs to keep all sides at least somewhat content.

 

Agreed on all counts. I was just surprised that an extremely similar situation exists within the US in which there is a separate quasi-private-but-actually-public bus line and riders are expected to follow similar rules.

[Parrothead]

It's not just happening in Israel. It's happening here in the US, on public buses in NYC.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/20/nyregion/bus-segregation-of-jewish-women-prompts-review.html

Oh, something needs to be done about this.

[farouk]

Fact is, some activists will latch hold of some reports about a country they may have an agenda against, and then will keep talking and talking about it, while maintaining a deathly silence about other countries, whether in the same region or not, where similar or worse things happen.

[Guest submarines]

Fact is, some activists will latch hold of some reports about a country they may have an agenda against, and then will keep talking and talking about it, while maintaining a deathly silence about other countries, whether in the same region or not, where similar or worse things happen.

 

:iagree: :iagree::iagree: x100

[tomandlorih]

Agreeing that this is wrong to be done as a way of putting persons down.. however I have to chuckle when I remember back to my school days when you tried to sit as far to the back of the bus as possible...to be cool! Surely this wasn't just in my hometown?

[farouk]

:iagree: :iagree::iagree: x100

 

sunflowers:

 

Fact is, it seems that the media, with their own view of the world, and members of Congress, with vested interests in voter perception, so often talk, talk, talk in a certain way about certain countries, irrespective of the facts on the ground.

 

It's as if they have long ago decided what they are going to say and do, irrespective of the facts.

[Mrs Mungo]

We regularly have discussions on injustices in various countries. The US is being discussed in this very thread. Therefore, I find it disingenuous to claim that Israel is being singled out. If you want to discuss specific injustices in other countries, please, bring them to light. But, I am not playing a puzzle game of vagaries.

[farouk]

We regularly have discussions on injustices in various countries. The US is being discussed in this very thread. Therefore, I find it disingenuous to claim that Israel is being singled out. If you want to discuss specific injustices in other countries, please, bring them to light. But, I am not playing a puzzle game of vagaries.

 

Mrs Mungo: Good point, although I wasn't just thinking of the US, but also of countries geographically nearer to Israel.

[LeslieAnneLevine]

I don't think the outrage is reserved for Israel alone. In fact, you usually hear about this kind of stuff happening in other countries in the region and not in Israel. It's possible that it's a big story because people don't typically think of this as a something that happens there.

 

I also think children being harrassed (or worse) is going to catch people's attention more. I remember similar stories in Northern Ireland.

[Mrs Mungo]

Mrs Mungo: Good point, although I wasn't just thinking of the US, but also of countries geographically nearer to Israel.

 

I will repeat:

If you want to discuss specific injustices in other countries, please, bring them to light. But, I am not playing a puzzle game of vagaries.

[farouk]

I will repeat:

If you want to discuss specific injustices in other countries, please, bring them to light. But, I am not playing a puzzle game of vagaries.

 

Mrs Mungo:

 

For example, since you ask, look at regular news reports of women being prosecuted in Saudi Arabia because they have tried to drive a car. Plenty of such reports.

[gsanmb]

Ok. There are a few things that clearly require explaining. I am going to attempt to do this neutrally, although I am not neutral.

 

First: it is extremely important to understand that the term "Orthodox" is not a monolithic one. "Orthodox" (in the context of Judaism) has as its basic definition, that a person accepts the Torah as Divinely given, and the halachot (laws) as obligatory.

 

However -- and this is a HUGE however -- there is a very, very wide spectrum of people who identify as "Orthodox", from very insular and extreme sects of Chassidim (among which there are also differences!), to 'mainstream Chareidi' (black hat/white shirt), to 'national religious' (and among those also a spectrum of observance levels and specific understandings of belief), to 'very modern' -- people about whom you may never know where they stand on the religious spectrum just by seeing them in the street.

 

In Israel, these differences also have significant political consequences. Israel is not the United States, and although it is a westernized democracy with the complete and mature infrastructure of a democracy, its institutions reflect the religious and cultural idiosyncrasies of its region and its history. The classic 'left/right' spectrum as most westerners understand it is largely irrelevant in Israel -- a political party (it is a multiparty/parliamentary proportional representation system, not a two party system) can be very 'left wing' on economic matters but very 'right wing' (for lack of a better term) on social and religious matters, and at the same time 'moderate' or 'neutral' on security matters.

 

There is no separation of religion and state in Israel. The early secular Zionist founders of the state chose to accommodate the divergent, intense, and politically sensitive issues of religion by adhering to the old Ottoman 'millet' system in which the leaders of each religious community governed matters of personal status and religion. The state supports those institutions through the Ministry of Religious Affairs. That is to say, Muslims in Israel govern/administrate/register their own marriages, divorces, etc. as do Christians and Jews. Clearly, who gets to be in charge within those communities is a very political question, and for the Jewish community especially -- because such questions are entwined with political issues like citizenship, which are politically governed by the Ministry of the Interior (usually overseen by a different political party than Religious Affairs).

 

The very extreme group that is at issue here -- called the Sikrikim (or Kanna'im) are a subset within a subset. I will say this upfront -- I am friendly with ladies in the community in Beit Shemesh where this is occurring, and I identify with the national religious stream of Orthodox Judaism. I have a horse in this race. HOWEVER -- this is not a widespread issue. Although there is a longstanding, intense, and extremely divisive 'culture divide' between Chareidi Israelis and other Israelis (all along the national religious, traditional, and secular spectrums), *most* people recognize that this lunatic fringe is just that.

 

This is also not about modesty. AT deeper issue here is a matter of property rights and control of that area of the city. They also threw junk at the boys' school; the modesty issue has *nothing* to do with anything except as an unfortunate and disgusting manifestation of these peoples' nuttiness.

 

Several Chareidi rabbinical leaders (Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef, Rabbi Yisrael Lau, the leadership of the Chabad Lubavitch movement, Agudas Yisrael -- all very influential within Jewish Chareidi society) have all condemned the actions of these nuts. And there is an originally American (Chareidi) rabbi (with whom I am friendly -- his name is Rabbi Dov Lipman) leading an organized response to this, irrespective of religious affiliation (that is to say he has invited and welcomed Jews from all over the religious spectrum to join his effort).

 

The bus and public segregation issue is another one entirely. As to that, it's an *extremely* complicated situation with regard to whether the buses are public or private. Israel still has many remnants of socialism, and the bus cooperatives 'own' the rights to provide bus service. When the Chareidi townships that wanted private bus service that accommodated their needs applied, they were rejected and told that the Egged cooperative would provide it for them. That's not to say it's at all acceptable for women/men segregation to be enforced by anyone -- and the Israeli inspectors have stepped up their enforcement of bias -- but it does make the issue somewhat more complicated. It's worth noting here that many Chareidi townships do NOT have and do NOT ask for this service.

 

The nastiness against the female soldier was disgusting and absolutely uncalled for. However it's also not all that infrequent for Chareidim to come under public scorn and even assault -- two days ago a religious soldier was prevented from entering a nightclub unless he removed his kippah; a Chareidi young girl was kicked off a public bus and literally kicked as well. It can and does go both ways. Bullies are bullies, whatever costume they wear.

 

Ester, I understand where you're coming from when you decry what you see as Chareidi dependence on the State and its simultaneous rejection of it, but I would ask that you acknowledge that you are painting a very generalized picture. I don't disagree with much of your position, but I do think that the very nuanced and complex issues are not obvious from your posts. Many Chareidim DO work at gainful employment. It's not really worth getting into here, but just as with debates over state assistance and what it entails/who should be allowed etc. in the US, it's not so -- forgive me! :tongue_smilie: -- black and white in Israel either.

 

As for the incident over the bus in NYC -- it was one bus route between Manhattan and Williamsburg, the B110, and as soon as it became known what was going on, it was immediately discontinued. There are private buses that now provide the same service. I'm not saying it was right -- clearly it was an atrocious abuse of public good -- but it was not at all widespread. One bus line, and immediately stopped.

 

Look. I think that, with all due respect, there are some cultural misunderstandings at play here. I venture to assume (maybe wrongly, but I'm going by what I see on the boards) that most don't really understand the nuances within Judaism aside from what they perceive from the general media and 'what people say.' We have a concept in Judaism called 'dan l'kaf zechut' which loosely means 'give the benefit of the doubt.' I.e. when in doubt, at least do due diligence in research before reaching a negative conclusion.

 

Don't get me wrong. If you knew me in person and had seen my facebook page, you'd know that I'm an activist on this issue and have written and published scathing condemnations of this extremism. But I also understand it, and I can target my condemnation at the right people, without willy-nilly attacking the reputations of many thousands of people who might dress like that, but aren't at all similar in outlook. That's all I'm saying.

[farouk]

gsanmb:

 

Interesting point about some fanatical people behaving like other fanatical people (who merely happens to have the opposite opinion).

 

The Israeli Nobel Literature Prizwinner Amos Oz said that his fellow citizens were millions of prophets in a country "where everyone shouts and nobody listens. I like that."

 

But I guess that people with strong opinions can be like this worldwide.

[gsanmb]

Farouk, I like that quote from Amos Oz. He's an amazing person and laser-style insightful.

 

There's another saying (and I forgot who said it) about how belief spectrums eventually bend around so the extremes are closer to each other than to the middle. I agree: extremists are extremists -- fundamentally intolerant of others regardless of what their particular beliefs are.

[farouk]

Farouk, I like that quote from Amos Oz. He's an amazing person and laser-style insightful.

 

There's another saying (and I forgot who said it) about how belief spectrums eventually bend around so the extremes are closer to each other than to the middle. I agree: extremists are extremists -- fundamentally intolerant of others regardless of what their particular beliefs are.

 

gsanmb:

 

It was the Scottish Nationalist Hugh MacDiarmid who wrote:

 

'I'll have no half-way house, but always be where extremes met'.

 

He also wrote:

 

'I would be an action, to put into a concrete abstraction, my country's contrair qualities, and make a unity of these'.

 

I guess Benzion Netanyahu (Benyamin's father), as a leading theorist of Israeli nationalism, could have written sentiments similar to these.

Edited January 6, 2012 by farouk
typo

[Ester Maria]

Ester, I understand where you're coming from when you decry what you see as Chareidi dependence on the State and its simultaneous rejection of it, but I would ask that you acknowledge that you are painting a very generalized picture.

My objections are directed only towards the subset of the population who actively lead lives of no contribution to the state (in a form of military service, meaningful employment and self-sufficient lifestyle), in spite of being capable of doing so, but who are at the same time financially dependent upon it and enjoying all the privileges and security guaranteed for them by the active contribution and work of other people.

 

In principle, I have no problem with somebody choosing a lifestyle of learning with a large family of their own, but they can only legitimately do so if they have their own, independent source of financing of that project (private donations, inheritance, whatnot). They ought not, by my personal moral judgment, parasite on taxpayers' money and discriminatory laws, especially if there is no tangible use for the country as a whole to allow for such an arrangement (not that they are learning technical fields which would not only bring about their own financial independence in the future, but also the betterment of the State's industry, technological advance, higher standard of living, etc. - that I could live with - but swaying over Gemara? Please do, but with your own money.). The State does not have any real interest in having such a large group of people - a precedent in Jewish history, in fact - be occupied with religious studies and not contribute; the only reason why those absurd regulations are in effect are to appease what has become a group that is an important political factor. It is not only economically unproductive, it is just plain wrong on so many levels, as some are "more equal than the others". I cannot condone that.

 

And even if I could somehow swallow that thing - and I cannot - it would be obvious to me that that segment of society ought to treat their fellow citizens with maximum grace, because they are the ones that work for them, finance them, and protect them. Instead of that, the kind of treatment that is being extended to the rest of society (including that many religious Jews who - gasp! - do work, and learn, and serve in the military, and are self-sufficient! So, it is possible! :)) is often chutzpadik to say the least. Between trying to obstacle other people's business plans because it "hurts their religious feelings" (remember the thing with shabat parking lots? with businesses who work on shabat? etc.), their kids throwing stones at cars on shabat, monopolizing the public sphere with their own regulations, denying their children secular education in their private - but - publicly - supported schools and not turning them into reasonably educated and functional members of society, and self-ghettoization, to name a few, one would think that they are totally oblivious to the fact that they are being maintained by those same people they do not seem to hold in very high regard. I am often just plain incredulous as to the things that are going on; we are not even talking about "only" being maintained there, but also about a complete lack of common sense and derech eretz.

 

While we could argue about what enters into reasonable social privileges, I know of NO developed country - and I have lived in several - which would even think about promoting things Israel is promoting: because whatever you subsidize, you do promote it.

 

So OF COURSE that people are annoyed (at best) or angered (at worst) with that specific subset of the population.

Look. I think that, with all due respect, there are some cultural misunderstandings at play here. I venture to assume (maybe wrongly, but I'm going by what I see on the boards) that most don't really understand the nuances within Judaism aside from what they perceive from the general media and 'what people say.'

Not sure if this was specifically aimed at me?

 

(P.S. Here is a mood-appropriate

, catastrophic as regards any kind of musical quality LOL, but my daughter ran into it somehow so I share it in this opportunity - there are even songs about this. :D) Edited January 6, 2012 by Ester Maria

[farouk]

My objections are directed only towards the subset of the population who actively lead lives of no contribution to the state (in a form of military service, meaningful employment and self-sufficient lifestyle), in spite of being capable of doing so, but who are at the same time financially dependent upon it and enjoying all the privileges and security guaranteed for them by the active contribution and work of other people.

 

In principle, I have no problem with somebody choosing a lifestyle of learning with a large family of their own, but they can only legitimately do so if they have their own, independent source of financing of that project (private donations, inheritance, whatnot). They ought not, by my personal moral judgment, parasite on taxpayers' money and discriminatory laws, especially if there is no tangible use for the country as a whole to allow for such an arrangement (not that they are learning technical fields which would not only bring about their own financial independence in the future, but also the betterment of the State's industry, technological advance, higher standard of living, etc. - that I could live with - but swaying over Gemara? Please do, but with your own money.). The State does not have any real interest in having such a large group of people - a precedent in Jewish history, in fact - be occupied with religious studies and not contribute; the only reason why those absurd regulations are in effect are to appease what has become a group that is an important political factor. It is not only economically unproductive, it is just plain wrong on so many levels, as some are "more equal than the others". I cannot condone that.

 

And even if I could somehow swallow that thing - and I cannot - it would be obvious to me that that segment of society ought to treat their fellow citizens with maximum grace, because they are the ones that work for them, finance them, and protect them. Instead of that, the kind of treatment that is being extended to the rest of society (including that many religious Jews who - gasp! - do work, and learn, and serve in the military, and are self-sufficient! So, it is possible! :)) is often chutzpadik to say the least. Between trying to obstacle other people's business plans because it "hurts their religious feelings" (remember the thing with shabat parking lots? with businesses who work on shabat? etc.), their kids throwing stones at cars on shabat, monopolizing the public sphere with their own regulations, denying their children secular education in their private - but - publicly - supported schools and not turning them into reasonably educated and functional members of society, and self-ghettoization, to name a few, one would think that they are totally oblivious to the fact that they are being maintained by those same people they do not seem to hold in very high regard. I am often just plain incredulous as to the things that are going on; we are not even talking about "only" being maintained there, but also about a complete lack of common sense and derech eretz.

 

While we could argue about what enters into reasonable social privileges, I know of NO developed country - and I have lived in several - which would even think about promoting things Israel is promoting: because whatever you subsidize, you do promote it.

 

So OF COURSE that people are annoyed (at best) or angered (at worst) with that specific subset of the population.

 

Not sure if this was specifically aimed at me?

 

Ester Maria:

 

I always did think that the alliance between Socialist Ehud Barak and the Shas was an odd thing; if it made sense as a pragmatic, tactic for both, yet from an ideological perspective it was very strange.

 

I guess that Israeli politics and the general situation and history of the country are very likely to throw up the sorts of paradoxes which you ably highlight.

[gsanmb]

Ester, I agree with you meah achuz (100%). And no, that comment was not directed at you.

 

I was just pointing out that while you and I appreciate the nuances here, others -- seeing a vast sea of black suits, white shirts, black hats, and little kids with peyos -- don't, necessarily, understand the subgroups within the subgroup.

 

You and I can see in one second the color of the kippah, the length of the pants, the design of the coat, the length of the peyos, and all the other visual cues that we understand designate a person's 'subgroup affiliation' for lack of a better term. Most non-Jews (and, to be frank, many Jews in and out of Israel) have no clue that those very subtle differences are actually hugely significant emblems of group 'membership.'

 

And those differences are meaningful in this discussion, as in others about Israeli politics, etc.

 

(Just like if you saw me walking down the street in a long denim skirt, long sleeve t shirt, and mitpachat with the front of my hair showing a bit, you'd know *exactly* where I stood on the national religious spectrum. Right? Others would think -- and not incorrectly, just not completely -- that I was just kind of a hippy beatnik sort).

 

Shabbat Shalom!