tex-mex Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 The results show that these governments spend between $21,000, the figure for Uganda, and $59,000, in South Africa, to train a doctor, only to see them in many cases migrate to richer countries. http://news.yahoo.com/doctor-brain-drain-costs-africa-2-billion-000805573.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaxMom Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Interesting. I wonder how they're moving to practice in developed countries... I mean, the US is pretty snippy about where you went to medical school. And I wonder why they're leaving. Like, truly, why? (I will restrain myself from pointing out how it seems people will ALWAYS choose the almighty dollar over doing good. Sigh) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Actually, the US is not snippy about medical schools in the rural and/or impoverished areas. Those doctors are frequently "J1" doctors. And how they get to America is that these are the richest of the people in those countries. Their families send them here. We've been looking around again for new practices. And you can tell the J1 hospitals very, very easily. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) Perhaps they can't be hired in their home countries because they cost too much? My sister rekons there are people floating about Kenya with PhDs in Education who can't find work because the government doesn't want to pay them PhD holder wages nor the typical pay for less qualified teachers, which plenty would be willing to take. Rosie Edited November 25, 2011 by Rosie_0801 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted November 25, 2011 Author Share Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) Interesting. I wonder how they're moving to practice in developed countries... I mean, the US is pretty snippy about where you went to medical school. And I wonder why they're leaving. Like, truly, why? (I will restrain myself from pointing out how it seems people will ALWAYS choose the almighty dollar over doing good. Sigh) Well, in my experience... We have a favorite Genetic Metabolic Specialist who is in charge of the FDA study we participate in for our rare liver disease. He is so wonderful and kind. I was recently surprised to find out he is native to India and only emigrated to the US due to this field and the potential for science. He recently won a fellowship to continue his research at Texas Children's Hospital/Baylor College of Medicine. He is brilliant. And personally, I thank him for pointing out another rare situation in my health -- HbC trait which was dx'ed by chronic hemolytic anemia. He is so thorough and kind. He always is concerned with other health issues beyond the FDA drug study like my vision, diabtetes, high blood pressure, etc. And he takes the time to sit and talk to us. I feel sorry India lost him but am so happy we have his expertise for our rare disease. Edited November 25, 2011 by tex-mex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Tex, your post made me smile. Most of the foreign doctors I've met are really, really wonderful people. I'm so glad you have a good one helping you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaxMom Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I totally get why the remarkable - in any field - would want to emigrate to somewhere with research support available, or where research in their area of expertise is underway. That's a two-way street. But when you're talking about general, in the trenches, practice... ? Why would you leave the people who need you? And I assume, with training costs quoted in the article, that these are not the people whose families are wealthy enough to send them to medical school at home or abroad. Am I making sense? I might be addled by turkey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I totally get why the remarkable - in any field - would want to emigrate to somewhere with research support available, or where research in their area of expertise is underway. That's a two-way street. But when you're talking about general, in the trenches, practice... ? Why would you leave the people who need you? And I assume, with training costs quoted in the article, that these are not the people whose families are wealthy enough to send them to medical school at home or abroad. Am I making sense? I might be addled by turkey. I agree. I've had some fabulous "foreign" doctors. But I think it is sad that so many are leaving their native countries, by choice or lack of choices. I also think it's sad that not enough American doctors choose to go into general practice. There is a big shortage in many areas. I understand some of the reasons (I was pre-med), but I still think it's a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 there is someone in my homeschool group that just shifted from South Africa 4 months ago. Her husband is a surgeon. They shifted from South Africa because they wanted to live in a SAFE environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) But when you're talking about general, in the trenches, practice... ? Why would you leave the people who need you? . Because you may have started with high ideals, but see that you don't have supplies or staff in your clinic; that the system in your country is so dysfunctional that all your hard work is but a drop in the bucket; that you can not support your family on your doctor's salary; that there is high crime or civil unrest or marauding militias; that your children do not have access to the education you would want for them... But you have a marketable skill and are, in other countries, seen as a highly trained professional and offered a job to work in a safe environment, with supplies and resources, medications and staff; earn an income that supports your family and enables you to send home money to support extended family; can send your kids to a good school.... Would you NOT leave? Why do you expect a level of selflessness and altruism from these people who live and work under circumstances we in the US can not even imagine? Edited November 25, 2011 by regentrude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staceyobu Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Because you may have started with high ideals, but see that you don't have supplies or staff in your clinic; that the system in your country is so dysfunctional that all your hard work is but a drop in the bucket; that you can not support your family on your doctor's salary; that there is high crime or civil unrest or marauding militias; that your children do not have access to the education you would want for them... And then you see that you have a marketable skill and are, in other countries, seen as a highly trained professional and offered a job. Would you NOT leave? Why do you expect a level of selflessness and altruism from these people who live and work under circumstances we in the US can not even imagine? :iagree: Are you interested in living in a village in a third world country? I recently read a book called "Half the Sky" that spoke about this issue. One solution they had looked at was providing medical training without giving degrees. They had an illiterate woman who could perform c/sections. Without the degree, they can't practice somewhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Because you may have started with high ideals, but see that you don't have supplies or staff in your clinic; that the system in your country is so dysfunctional that all your hard work is but a drop in the bucket; that you can not support your family on your doctor's salary; that there is high crime or civil unrest or marauding militias; that your children do not have access to the education you would want for them... But you have a marketable skill and are, in other countries, seen as a highly trained professional and offered a job to work in a safe environment, with supplies and resources, medications and staff; earn an income that supports your family and enables you to send home money to support extended family; can send your kids to a good school.... Would you NOT leave? Why do you expect a level of selflessness and altruism from these people who live and work under circumstances we in the US can not even imagine? :iagree: Of all the foreign doctors I've met, this is why they leave. That, and the universal desire to give their children a better life. Same reason immigrants come to America from all other walks of life. It is also incredibly frustrating for Third World doctors to KNOW what their patients need but not be able to provide that to their patients due to a lack of funding. It's frustrating enough to practice medicine without that stress too. Although, most doctors believe that America will someday be there too if we don't start fixing the healthcare system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammie Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Maybe we should be asking ourselves why more American doctors are not volunteering to go live abroad and provide medical services free of charge to those that really need them? It seems like the flip side of the question that OP posted. Here in India there is significant brain drain among doctors. And I can see why. Dh's cousin did medical school in India, then moved to the US and did residency there. She is making $600,000 as a pediatric cardiac surgeon. No way she could come even close to making that kind of money here. Many of these doctors do contribue back to their home countries by funding clinics, supporting medical charities, etc. I guess this is the result of having a global economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 They don't leave because they want to be rich. They leave because they want security, safety, and the reliable rule of law. I have a close friend who came here from Uganda. She is from a wealthy family and her husband is a well-off businessman. She stays here for security, plain and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Maybe we should be asking ourselves why more American doctors are not volunteering to go live abroad and provide medical services free of charge to those that really need them? It seems like the flip side of the question that OP posted. ITA!!! And I can tell you that for us, the reason is student loans. We cannot go off on adventures and pay the loans off on the $50,000 a year DH would make in a Third World country. And by the time those loans are paid off, we will have to buckle down and start saving for the kids' colleges. And somewhere along the way, we might want to start saving for our retirement. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 What is the point of this? We should criticize a doctor for leaving Zimbabwe or South Africa for a place where he family can live in relative security. If a doctor leaves the Third World for a better life in a freer nation, that is his right. The idea that the US or other nations should "offer financial help to poorer ones affected" conveniently forgets all the aid that many such nations currently receive. It further flies in the face of common sense, rather than complain about the fact that doctors are leaving should these nations not look to ways to retain them? Someone who works hard enough to eat a degree should (unless bound by a contract) be able to enjoy the fruits of his labor, if he can get into the US, Canada or Europe more power to him. Remember this is NOT simply a monetary decision but has other aspects. I suspect that security is a big part of many decisions to leave and that is something that a government can impact. That a "despotic" regime fails to do so " is NOT the fault of the developed world. As to the earlier question "Maybe we should be asking ourselves why more American doctors are not volunteering to go live abroad and provide medical services free of charge" perhaps the high cost of becoming a doctor has something to do with it, those pesky college loans tend to preclude leaving the US to work overseas for free. Further, many of the places that doctors flee from are simply not safe for US doctors to reside in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 They don't leave because they want to be rich. They leave because they want security, safety, and the reliable rule of law. ...and there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I have worked with hundreds of foreign grads. I'll give you a couple of stories. One man left India after his father died in a relatively minor car crash because there were no blood transfusion available. It wasn't "the village", either. He felt very frustrated with India. One man left after a daughter died of rabies. One man left because he wanted to marry a Hindu One man left because everyone else had moved over here (his sibs were in the high tech fields). One man supported a huge family back in Sri Lanka, which was torn up because of the civil war. One woman left because her son needed special care for a storage disease. One man left because he was an untouchable. A church group got him over here. One Ukrainian man left because he had to drive through a crowd with signs like "We will drown the Russians in the blood of the Jews" one too many times. He was afraid for his life and his child. I could go on and on and on and on. As medicine becomes less lucrative, expect to see it "outsourced" to people who are willing to work very long hours for the above-average income. BTW, GPs are not board eligible and, unless they "grandfathered in", can't admit to hospitals. You might mean family practice. With the explosion of ARNPs out here, "family practice" is more common. Heck, I couldn't get hubby into an MD. He goes (about every 10 years) to a PA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 They don't leave because they want to be rich. They leave because they want security, safety, and the reliable rule of law. I have a close friend who came here from Uganda. She is from a wealthy family and her husband is a well-off businessman. She stays here for security, plain and simple. Many Indians tell me they got sick of having to bribe non-stop. The "crookedness" is demoralizing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 You really contributed something valuable to the conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevilla Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 This book (Cutting for Stone by Abraham Vargheese) examines the issues of physician brain drain. It's a novel set partly in Kenya, Africa and partly in the US and I learned a lot from it (also a powerful story). http://www.amazon.com/Cutting-Stone-Abraham-Verghese/dp/0375714367/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322228857&sr=8-1 People in the U.S. do not realize the everyday security issues that come from living in much of Africa - even more prosperous nations. The civil unrest that can erupt suddenly, the high rate of mortality from car crashes, the need to have your own private security guard just to live as a family without being abducted for ransom would wear on ANYONE after awhile. If you want an equivalent, imagine that your entire country is as safe as walking through the worst ghetto in the U.S. - and the only police available are those that you hire out of pocket (b/c the regular police take so many bribes it's a big joke that they're about protecting the people). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mazakaal Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Because you may have started with high ideals, but see that you don't have supplies or staff in your clinic; that the system in your country is so dysfunctional that all your hard work is but a drop in the bucket; that you can not support your family on your doctor's salary; that there is high crime or civil unrest or marauding militias; that your children do not have access to the education you would want for them... But you have a marketable skill and are, in other countries, seen as a highly trained professional and offered a job to work in a safe environment, with supplies and resources, medications and staff; earn an income that supports your family and enables you to send home money to support extended family; can send your kids to a good school.... Would you NOT leave? Why do you expect a level of selflessness and altruism from these people who live and work under circumstances we in the US can not even imagine? Yes. Exactly. I was going to post something similar, but couldn't have done it so eloquently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 This book (Cutting for Stone by Abraham Vargheese) examines the issues of physician brain drain. It's a novel set partly in Kenya, Africa and partly in the US and I learned a lot from it (also a powerful story). http://www.amazon.com/Cutting-Stone-Abraham-Verghese/dp/0375714367/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322228857&sr=8-1 One of my absolute FAVORITE authors!!! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Because you may have started with high ideals, but see that you don't have supplies or staff in your clinic; that the system in your country is so dysfunctional that all your hard work is but a drop in the bucket; that you can not support your family on your doctor's salary; that there is high crime or civil unrest or marauding militias; that your children do not have access to the education you would want for them... But you have a marketable skill and are, in other countries, seen as a highly trained professional and offered a job to work in a safe environment, with supplies and resources, medications and staff; earn an income that supports your family and enables you to send home money to support extended family; can send your kids to a good school.... Would you NOT leave? Why do you expect a level of selflessness and altruism from these people who live and work under circumstances we in the US can not even imagine? :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted November 26, 2011 Author Share Posted November 26, 2011 there is someone in my homeschool group that just shifted from South Africa 4 months ago. Her husband is a surgeon. They shifted from South Africa because they wanted to live in a SAFE environment. You bring up an interesting point. I have a friend who emigrated to the US from South Africa and he said the same thing which surprised me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 You bring up an interesting point. I have a friend who emigrated to the US from South Africa and he said the same thing which surprised me. Almost every South African that I know left his nation for just that reason. To a man they love Africa and miss her but they can not live there and keep their family safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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