If your dc has language processing, word retrieval, and working memory...

[FairProspects]

.

[wapiti]

:grouphug: I have a few random thoughts that may or may not be helpful. I'm pretty sure there are some other posters who may be able to offer more useful info :).

 

Take this FWIW; we were not hs-ing when dd was in first grade, so I don't know what would have happened with WWE, though I suspect that it wouldn't have been good, LOL. Dd does not have a working memory issue, but does have language processing/comprehension issues. Our language therapist specifically worked on (1) visualization as a reading strategy, (2) making inferences, and (3) vocabulary. Search for old posts by Yllek for comprehension ideas.

 

Also, this is just a guess, but recalling details in complete sentences probably involves some sequential skills as well as working memory. On the one hand, I'd try not to let weaknesses get in the way of other skills (like comprehension) so I might look for a way around that, but on the other hand, I'd want to continue work on weaknesses, perhaps through more efficient means if there is such a thing.

 

My thinking is that I might first work on something like visualization - or other reading/listening strategies - to make your WWE lessons more fruitful. I don't know what good it does to continue forth without making any changes. On the other hand, the fact that the struggle is there gives you a way to demonstrate progress if and when progress occurs.

 

:tongue_smilie:

[EKS]

I did not have my son narrate anything directly after reading about it. Instead, after several days of learning about a topic, I had him dictate a "report" about whatever it was to me. It seemed as though having the additional time to process the material helped with the output.

 

I never used WWE with this child (he is now 15). I have used WWE with my younger son though and from that, I know that WWE would have been a *horrible* choice for the older one. The comprehension questions aren't true comprehension questions--they are really testing working memory, and because of this, they would have tortured my son whose working memory is not so good. The dictation is also a working memory task and he simply would not have been able to do it. And the narration would have been frustrating because of my son's need for time to process and get a bigger picture (something that is missing from WWE selections).

 

BTW, my reading comprehension is excellent and *I* couldn't remember many of the details expected from WWE.

[merry gardens]

I never used WWE.

 

The only dictation we do now is the dictation built into Barton Reading and Spelling. I say it, (word, phrase or sentence) then he repeats it back. No writing until he can say it correctly. Then he writes. If he forgets and needs anything repeated, I say the whole thing again. The program builds so that the child can write either different sentences from the phrases or write sentences that use the same phrase written earlier as just a phrase.

We cover some comprehension with Barton, (ie tell the story in your own words) but I use other materials to specifically cover and teach comprehension. We did IdeaChain last year and now use Visualizing and Verbalizing workbooks.

 

We also worked on developing basic hand muscles and stroke formation to help with writing skills. For some of these children, the problem with writing is not just a language problem and memory problem, (though those are difficult enough) but also a problem of hand strength and letter formation.

 

That's what we do, for better or for worse. Sometimes the key to success is lowering expectations and giving them things they can do successfully.

[VinNY]

My dtr could not work at grade level. She has the same issues as your son. When it came to narrations we had to break the steps up. I would read a story for example from the Bible or Aesop's fable. Before she did narration, she would create a picture page by drawing scenes from the story in sequence. I would help her with this sequence/memory piece by prompting "what came first", then next etc.

 

The next day, she would retell the story using her picture page and then the following day, copy the story on to the opposite page from the pictures.

 

My other neurotypical children would have narrated first, then draw the picture and then do their copy work.

 

My dtr is now 10 and narration is still a struggle because of her retrieval and memory issues but she is making progress at her pace. Sequencing is so important and learning to visualize and hold that piece in the brain (like a movie picture). When she was in 3rd grade, I used 1st grade material and now that she is in 4th, we are using 2nd grade material. Something to think about when it comes to language processing issues..maybe try some K material with him.

[FairProspects]

.

[jentancalann]

We dropped it (WWE2) and came back, dropped it and came back over a 2 1/2 year period. We have just come back and are two weeks into it. We started over this time as opposed to picking up where we left off. So far things are better. Time has certainly helped.

[Critterfixer]

My youngest boy struggles with narration. Most of his problems come from his AS, rather than actual language issues, but narration was pretty hard for him and is still a challenge. But I think it is a challenge worth working on for us, so what we have done is to go to outlining first, narration after. It is really helpful for him to be guided through the process. First, we would draw out the basic story web. I would make sure we answered the major questions, not always the ones in WWE which were actually way to detailed for him. He needs to see something broken down in a very basic way: Who, What, Where, When, How.. before he can even get to the Why.

I also changed writing programs to CW which uses the same passage over a week of work. That has seemed to be helpful as well.

[PeterPan]

Come back to WWE when he's 10 and see if it goes better.

 

Some walls look like bushes when you come back to them later.

[peacefully]

.

[onaclairadeluna]

 

If your ds is doing great with reading/listening comprehension, I would find ways to allow him to see that this is one of his strengths. WWE narrations really make it hard for them to feel that way, but it's important for their engagement as readers to know that they really do get it. Let him wow you with all the (insignificant) details that they can remember ;), or let him just talk about his favorite thing about the passage and nothing else. I would let ds ramble on and on in front of our web cam on the computer. Sometimes he would make Lego scenes about the story and tell me about them. Sometimes he would draw pictures. A few times he really liked making puppet shows. He would astound me with all the tiny details that he could remember, but if I asked him to filter all that information to come up with one or two succinct sentences, he would freeze. Way too big of a processing step.

 

As others have suggested, my ds actually did better with more complex, longer, complete stories rather than excerpts.

 

 

Yes!

 

I would just chat with my son about what he's reading. For expressive language practice, I would have him tell me what he's learning. To explain some mathematical concept or even a game. He has spent hours trying to teach me the rules of Magic. It's a fun game we play because I almost always stop listening and he tries to catch me. He really has to be succinct and engaging to keep my attention.

 

I found casual interaction to be way less stressful and more productive for eliciting language from my son.

 

So anyhow after years of this (and Barton) we picked up WWS and he is doing just fine. So I think waiting on narration also helps. All of the sudden he can actually do it. My son is 13. We just started with narration this year.

[PeterPan]

Luna-What's Magic?

[onaclairadeluna]

Luna-What's Magic?

 

I am catching up on the thread after a temp full time job. It was fun and I needed the money but sheesh working AND homeschooling is kind of a crazy thing to do.

 

OK Magic. It's that card game with fantasy characters. DS is really into it. Well more into D and D but Magic is more popular with other kids these days. It has been a fantastic tool for him to make friends and gives him a high interest topic to talk about (though he has a wide range of interests; math, history, science...but fantasy stuff is his "candy")

[Walking-Iris]

I am catching up on the thread after a temp full time job. It was fun and I needed the money but sheesh working AND homeschooling is kind of a crazy thing to do.

 

OK Magic. It's that card game with fantasy characters. DS is really into it. Well more into D and D but Magic is more popular with other kids these days. It has been a fantastic tool for him to make friends and gives him a high interest topic to talk about (though he has a wide range of interests; math, history, science...but fantasy stuff is his "candy")

 

 

I played that game in high school. :001_smile:

 

This thread has been great for me to read---I just started WWE with my ds (9) and I've had some struggles with the questions/narrations in SOTW and now in WWE.

 

It's really helped me to see that others are "tweaking" this to work for their kiddos. I like WTM materials but sometimes I get so frustrated with how much "sit and listen" it seems to be---drives me and my kid a tad crazy. :glare:

[Guest]

I played that game in high school. :001_smile:

 

This thread has been great for me to read---I just started WWE with my ds (9) and I've had some struggles with the questions/narrations in SOTW and now in WWE.

 

It's really helped me to see that others are "tweaking" this to work for their kiddos. I like WTM materials but sometimes I get so frustrated with how much "sit and listen" it seems to be---drives me and my kid a tad crazy. :glare:

 

One suggestion that might make you feel better is to listen to SWB's lecture on elementary writing. I did that and it was what made me decide to go back to WWE. I will be getting WWE 2 and 3 and will go at my son's pace (we finished WWE 1 last year). Anyway, listening to the lecture helped me understand SWB's approach to writing a bit better (even though I had already read the WWE Strong Fundamentals guide) and to also see that I was pushing too hard and not giving my son the opportunity to develop the skills that he still needed to work on at his own pace. I am sure you will get much better advise from those that have btdt but I thought I would suggest that as an option to look into also.

[Walking-Iris]

One suggestion that might make you feel better is to listen to SWB's lecture on elementary writing. I did that and it was what made me decide to go back to WWE. I will be getting WWE 2 and 3 and will go at my son's pace (we finished WWE 1 last year). Anyway, listening to the lecture helped me understand SWB's approach to writing a bit better (even though I had already read the WWE Strong Fundamentals guide) and to also see that I was pushing too hard and not giving my son the opportunity to develop the skills that he still needed to work on at his own pace. I am sure you will get much better advise from those that have btdt but I thought I would suggest that as an option to look into also.

 

 

yep I have that lecture---guess I could listen to it again. I never push my kiddos past their abilities or comfort zone. It's just that we much rather do something than sit and listen or copy other people's words.

[Guest]

yep I have that lecture---guess I could listen to it again. I never push my kiddos past their abilities or comfort zone. It's just that we much rather do something than sit and listen or copy other people's words.

 

Perhaps you could look at a different approach to writing, or even take a break for a year like we did! You could also use the Fundamentals guide without the workbooks and pick your own copywork, dictation etc. across the curriculum, like some do here on the forums. I will be getting the workbooks again for ease of use. Luckily, we seem to have gone past the hump I was concerned with and Adrian's concentration is improving with what we are doing, so I do not foresee a problem. At least I hope not! If I see an issue I will just switch to using the guide. This time around I am determined to stick with it and I feel that taking a break and using PLL for a year really helped too.

[Walking-Iris]

Perhaps you could look at a different approach to writing, or even take a break for a year like we did! You could also use the Fundamentals guide without the workbooks and pick your own copywork, dictation etc. across the curriculum, like some do here on the forums. I will be getting the workbooks again for ease of use. Luckily, we seem to have gone past the hump I was concerned with and Adrian's concentration is improving with what we are doing, so I do not foresee a problem. At least I hope not! If I see an issue I will just switch to using the guide. This time around I am determined to stick with it and I feel that taking a break and using PLL for a year really helped too.

 

 

yeah I just have the WWE text---I don't plan on really ever using the workbooks (that may change, but as it is I'm going to make do with the text.) I got it to see how my ds would do with it so we may do some year 3/4 stuff next and see if he can eventually move on to WWS. We also use Writing Strands. I've looked into Classical Writing (crossed it off my list), looked into Winning With Writing...still pondering that one as well.

 

I got some good tips from this thread---drawing while I read,being flexible with the questions and answers, summarizing every few sentences etc. I'm going to try to be determined with it as well----

[Guest]

yeah I just have the WWE text---I don't plan on really ever using the workbooks (that may change, but as it is I'm going to make do with the text.) I got it to see how my ds would do with it so we may do some year 3/4 stuff next and see if he can eventually move on to WWS. We also use Writing Strands. I've looked into Classical Writing (crossed it off my list), looked into Winning With Writing...still pondering that one as well.

 

I got some good tips from this thread---drawing while I read,being flexible with the questions and answers, summarizing every few sentences etc. I'm going to try to be determined with it as well----

 

Only you will know what is best for your kids. I was concerned about skipping levels and after listening to SWB's lecture I know I won't be. Her method is a process of skill building. I know there are many people in the K-8 that recommend skipping levels or jumping straight into WWS. They have the right to their own opinion of course. Personally, I don't feel we will be getting the full benefit of SWB's approach unless we do it right. If I see we can accelerate I will but I have no reservations with using WWE 2 during Adrian's grade 3 year. One thing I learned this year is to not worry about what others are doing and do what my gut tells me is the best for my kids.

 

I crossed Classical Writing off my list (even though I have Aesop) because originally I felt I could either include it or maybe just use the writing. I am not confident in my ability to do that effectively nor would I want to, so I am switching to something that I feel will work better for us in the long run. We will be using Voyages for grammar and I will be adding some of the writing from there, depending on what I see we can fit in or include effectively. We will also be using Spalding for spelling.

 

I have used all the approaches previously mentioned with WWE except for the drawing. I know that would not work for my kid but what I have done is get him to picture what we read in his head. He is not effectively doing that with the books he reads so I am hoping it will transfer over to what I read to him. I was also reading some people saying that they found WWE 2 a bit easier, so that will be a bonus also.

 

Good luck! Hope all works out for you :)!

Edited March 6, 2012 by Guest

[Guest]

He is not effectively doing that with the books he reads so I am hoping it will transfer over to what I read to him.

 

Ooops, I meant he is now effectively doing that...

[myboyluvsdinos]

We've had similar issues. Now, at 12, my ds still really struggles to speak in a clear manner. I've read that in the dyslexic mind, automaticity often takes longer to develop, and I really see that in my guy.

 

I've been looking (for years) for a VERBAL program that uses a systematic, explicit, and multisensory method to teach how to speak. For example, just having my son be able to answer the question, "How was summer camp?" in a clear, organized manner, would be very difficult -- still. The program would maybe lead them through mentally thinking about their top 5 interesting things they did at camp. And then organizing those, maybe chronologically in this case, and then describing them. You have to be able so speak well BEFORE you can write well. Anyone heard of such a program?

[PeterPan]

We've had similar issues. Now, at 12, my ds still really struggles to speak in a clear manner. I've read that in the dyslexic mind, automaticity often takes longer to develop, and I really see that in my guy.

 

I've been looking (for years) for a VERBAL program that uses a systematic, explicit, and multisensory method to teach how to speak. For example, just having my son be able to answer the question, "How was summer camp?" in a clear, organized manner, would be very difficult -- still. The program would maybe lead them through mentally thinking about their top 5 interesting things they did at camp. And then organizing those, maybe chronologically in this case, and then describing them. You have to be able so speak well BEFORE you can write well. Anyone heard of such a program?

 

Did he ever get a speech eval? Was he a late talker by chance? I'm not sure the problems you're talking about are dyslexia. You could be seeing remnants of a speech problem (apraxia, whatever) that is making it hard for him to get his thoughts out.

[Guest]

Did he ever get a speech eval? Was he a late talker by chance? I'm not sure the problems you're talking about are dyslexia. You could be seeing remnants of a speech problem (apraxia, whatever) that is making it hard for him to get his thoughts out.

 

OhElizabeth, I am interested in what you have posted here. Adrian was a bit of a late talker (as I have shared with you privately ;)), which we always felt was due to the fact that I was speaking Greek and my hubby was speaking English to him. It was more of a regressive reaction though so we also suspected that it was due to the fact that he went to private daycare for about 6 months. When I stayed home (right after his second birthday), his speech just took off, and he always sounded out words properly. So we never worried about it again after that. However, I feel he may be lagging behind a bit in expressive language (which may be affecting narration), for his age. Could this have any relation to apraxia? Do you have any other thoughts you could share :)?

 

ETA: If anyone else has any other thoughts/ suggestions, I would appreciate it also :)!

Edited March 7, 2012 by Guest

[myboyluvsdinos]

Did he ever get a speech eval? Was he a late talker by chance? I'm not sure the problems you're talking about are dyslexia. You could be seeing remnants of a speech problem (apraxia, whatever) that is making it hard for him to get his thoughts out.

 

Yes -- diagnosed with apraxia at age 2, but then that diagnosis was retracted when he supposedly progressed too quickly. From everything I've read, early speech issues are a symptom of dyslexia.

 

Now, after 12 years, I think his disjointed speech is due to severe dyslexia (still severe after 8 levels of Barton), low working memory, poor word retrieval, and his very gifted brain (yes -- believe it or not I do think that contributes because I believe his neural connections are more far-reaching than normal and less specialized, which therefore results in more time processing all the connections that are occuring and then organizing that info. He has had IQ testing, also.)

 

Just my crazy theories, however. :001_smile:

 

Carolyn

[Guest]

Yes -- diagnosed with apraxia at age 2, but then that diagnosis was retracted when he supposedly progressed too quickly. From everything I've read, early speech issues are a symptom of dyslexia.

 

Now, after 12 years, I think his disjointed speech is due to severe dyslexia (still severe after 8 levels of Barton), low working memory, poor word retrieval, and his very gifted brain (yes -- believe it or not I do think that contributes because I believe his neural connections are more far-reaching than normal and less specialized, which therefore results in more time processing all the connections that are occuring and then organizing that info. He has had IQ testing, also.)

 

Just my crazy theories, however. :001_smile:

 

Carolyn

 

Hi Carolyn! I am sure Elizabeth will give you some great advice and will probably mention this too, but have you looked at Executive Function? You should be able to find many threads talking about it here.

[myboyluvsdinos]

Hi Marie -- thanks for your thoughts on executive functioning. We have explored that. He had a neuropsych eval last summer, and the doc said his executive functioning is decent, but that his very low working memory is the main problem. Who knows?!?!

 

Carolyn

[peacefully]

.

[onaclairadeluna]

...and his very gifted brain (yes -- believe it or not I do think that contributes because I believe his neural connections are more far-reaching than normal and less specialized, which therefore results in more time processing all the connections that are occuring and then organizing that info. He has had IQ testing, also.)

 

Yes! I have always thought that the GT side of my son is way more LD than his LD side. Or maybe it's just the combination of the two. It is really hard to find people that understand this.

 

How old is your son? Prefrontal development is delayed in HG kids. My son is 14 and many "issues" are resolving themselves with time (oh yeah and 10 levels of Barton and hours of me helping him learn to write etc.). He still has obvious delays in word retrieval.

[Guest]

Hi Marie -- thanks for your thoughts on executive functioning. We have explored that. He had a neuropsych eval last summer, and the doc said his executive functioning is decent, but that his very low working memory is the main problem. Who knows?!?!

 

Carolyn

 

Glad you at least have an evaluation to fall back on :)! Sounds like you at least have some guidance. I have been flying solo on this for now, trying to figure out things on my own, and working on areas I feel we need. I purchased Smart but Scattered a short while ago and was just going through it a bit yesterday. I also noticed that my boy seems to be on target for his age, from what I was reading. I figure it doesn't hurt to work on it some more so I am exploring my approach with him where EF is concerned.

 

I am glad you are getting some advice from the forums. The ladies here are great! Another suggestion is to start a thread because sometimes posts get lost in older and especially long threads. Like yllek mentioned, her old posts and old threads from others in general, are a good place to start. I have been focusing on doing searches lately for different things and have found them really helpful :).

[PeterPan]

Yes -- diagnosed with apraxia at age 2, but then that diagnosis was retracted when he supposedly progressed too quickly. From everything I've read, early speech issues are a symptom of dyslexia.

 

Now, after 12 years, I think his disjointed speech is due to severe dyslexia (still severe after 8 levels of Barton), low working memory, poor word retrieval, and his very gifted brain (yes -- believe it or not I do think that contributes because I believe his neural connections are more far-reaching than normal and less specialized, which therefore results in more time processing all the connections that are occuring and then organizing that info. He has had IQ testing, also.)

 

Just my crazy theories, however. :001_smile:

 

Carolyn

 

Don't you just love these idiots? Sigh. Um, if he had the motor control problems of apraxia, he has apraxia. If they didn't continue therapy and he now is having issues (sorry, I've totally forgotten your original post, I'm in lala land), then that's what I would go back to. Dyslexia doesn't cause disjointed speech. Dyslexia per the DSM is a READING DISORDER. The way we use the term is much looser. The apraxia is causing the disjointed speech. Personally, what I would do in your shoes is find the *best* PROMPT therapist. Google the PROMPT INSTITUTE AND USE THEIR MAP. Find someone who is certified or better if you can. The bridging course would do. Don't get a newbie who has only done level 1. Call that person and pick their brain. See if what you need is a speech eval or a referral to someone else.

 

PROMPT is the BEST therapy right now for verbal apraxia. If they're not what you need, they'll know who is. Our therapist (certified, amazing) talked with us for an hour before we ever went. We drive 2 1/2 hours to see her, totally worth it. One of the goals of PROMPT is to teach you the methods so you can do it at home. It might be he'd benefit from a little speech therapy. The appointments could be spaced if the distance is far. And if he needs something different, they'll be able to help you sort that out, because that's all they do, apraxia.

 

There are kids with apraxia who also need listening therapy for auditory processing problems, etc. There can be more going on. But if you get a really, really good PROMPT therapist (certified if possible), they're going to be able to help you sort that out.

 

BTW, what you're describing about his struggles getting his thoughts out are a CLASSIC symptom of under-treated apraxia. I'm not meaning to be cruel. I'm just saying that's what happens. PROMPT has only been out about 8-10 years. It would have been so new when your son was evaluated that it would have been extremely unlikely you could have found one. But now it's easy to find a PROMPT therapist. Most places you'll at least be able to find someone who has done the beginning courses. I suggest you make the effort, even if it's a drive, to find the best level you can find. I drive past (well we won't even count how many) therapists on their list with level 1 training, because I wanted the certified. She's AMAZING. And I can just about guarantee you your experience will be amazing too. It's somebody who treats apraxia all day long. They'll work with your son and figure out exactly why he's having problems and see if there's a missing link in his motor control, tone, whatever. PROMPT will dig right to the heart of the motor control problem.

 

See what causes the reluctance to speak and the difficulty getting it out is that it's taking so much EFFORT the therapy will first make sure he has motor control (sometimes people form letters the wrong way to cover poor motor control) and then give it support and practice to get it to where it's EASY and natural. When it is, his speech will improve. My ds doesn't have those problems coming out, but I've talked with dc with apraxia who didn't receive PROMPT who do. It doesn't have to stay that way.

 

It's probably not just one thing. But that's where I would start. :)

Edited March 9, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[myboyluvsdinos]

Hi Carolyn,

My ds has a different diagnosis than yours (Developmental Coordination Disorder and Expressive Language Disorder instead of dyslexia), but I often wonder if my son is some sort of remediated dyslexic, as so many of his traits and symptoms match up with the more general "profile" of a dyslexic student. Anyway, my son also has low working memory, poor word retrieval, and disjointed speech patterns—all of which have been remediated to some extent recently.

 

So I guess what I'm suggesting is that you may not need a full program on verbal expression if you remediate working memory. It's a simple place to start, and especially since you've already documented that your ds has low working memory, I highly recommend that you remediate that issue before trying to tackle the more complex language issues that rely on a functioning working memory to begin with.

 

Thanks for your response. My guy also has Developmental Coordination Disorder and Expressive Language Disorder. And low muscle tone. And poor motor planning. And poor bilateral integration. Sensory Integration Disorder. You name it, he's probably been diagnosed with it, (except for Autism spectrum disorders, which we explored at one time). Since he was 11 months old we've done p/t, o/t, s/t, v/t, neurofeedback, yadayadayada. A few helped some, especially if it targeted muscle control. But I've spend A LOT of money on stuff that didn't help.

 

Anyhow, back to the working memory issue, which is supposedly a biggee for him (and I do believe that). I spent a good hour searching for your posts and got a better idea of what you SLP did during therapy. Thanks -- that was helpful! Now trying to FIND someone as skilled and knowledgeable as yours isn't easy. We just moved from a rural area to a bigger city, so maybe I'll be able to locate someone. I sort of gave up on therapies a few years ago, because I found most weren't helpful, and the research and subsequent therapies that I did were often the most helpful. WHY ISN'T THERE A BOOK WITH SIMPLE EXERCISES (LIKE DIGIT SPANS) TO IMPROVE WORKING MEMORY?:banghead: Maybe there is, and I don't know about it. If anyone knows one, please tell me!!!!!

 

I also discovered, through reading your posts, that we've read many of the same books, like the Eides (I met them personally!), VSL, etc. So that was interesting. We'll have to chat more! :001_smile: Thanks again for your help!

 

Carolyn

[myboyluvsdinos]

Yes! I have always thought that the GT side of my son is way more LD than his LD side. Or maybe it's just the combination of the two. It is really hard to find people that understand this.

 

How old is your son? Prefrontal development is delayed in HG kids. My son is 14 and many "issues" are resolving themselves with time (oh yeah and 10 levels of Barton and hours of me helping him learn to write etc.). He still has obvious delays in word retrieval.

 

Yes, I've read about the delayed brain development in HG kids. My guy is 12. I keep hoping a more mature brain in a few years will help. And yep -- we've done the Barton thing -- we'll do level 9 this summer, as my son went to private school this year. It definitely has helped, and I'm hoping to become a Certified Barton Tutor this summer. Glad to hear that time has helped your son. :001_smile:

[myboyluvsdinos]

Don't you just love these idiots? Sigh. Um, if he had the motor control problems of apraxia, he has apraxia. If they didn't continue therapy and he now is having issues (sorry, I've totally forgotten your original post, I'm in lala land), then that's what I would go back to. Dyslexia doesn't cause disjointed speech. Dyslexia per the DSM is a READING DISORDER. The way we use the term is much looser. The apraxia is causing the disjointed speech. Personally, what I would do in your shoes is find the *best* PROMPT therapist. Google the PROMPT INSTITUTE AND USE THEIR MAP. Find someone who is certified or better if you can. The bridging course would do. Don't get a newbie who has only done level 1. Call that person and pick their brain. See if what you need is a speech eval or a referral to someone else.

 

BTW, what you're describing about his struggles getting his thoughts out are a CLASSIC symptom of under-treated apraxia. I'm not meaning to be cruel. I'm just saying that's what happens. PROMPT has only been out about 8-10 years. It would have been so new when your son was evaluated that it would have been extremely unlikely you could have found one. But now it's easy to find a PROMPT therapist.

 

See what causes the reluctance to speak and the difficulty getting it out is that it's taking so much EFFORT the therapy will first make sure he has motor control (sometimes people form letters the wrong way to cover poor motor control) and then give it support and practice to get it to where it's EASY and natural. When it is, his speech will improve. My ds doesn't have those problems coming out, but I've talked with dc with apraxia who didn't receive PROMPT who do. It doesn't have to stay that way.

 

It's probably not just one thing. But that's where I would start. :)

 

Well, Hmmmm. Honestly, after all these years and tons of various therapies, I never thought about it being undertreated apraxia. I can kind of see it, though, because he has low muscle tone and poor motor planning/coordination on his ENTIRE body, so I guess that makes sense. In his case, he also has poor working memory, so maybe the two combined would cause a double-whammy problem.

 

I looked up PROMPT and found there is a lower-trained provider near us (we live in Idaho). I will call her and see what she says. I'm REALLY glad you took the time to write your comments. It could end up leading to something worthwhile for my ds. THANKS!!!!!!!!!:001_smile:

 

Carolyn

[PeterPan]

Well that will be interesting to see if it leads to anything for you! On the Idaho and surrounding map for PROMPT I see a number of therapists that are green flags, having completed the Bridging course. If you have the choice of that over someone who has done Intro (yellow flag), in general that's what I would do. You could get a fluke, but a person who has done Bridging has put quite a bit of effort into getting that 2nd course. I think sometimes people just do the first course for continuing education credits, not because they have any plans to implement it.

 

If he's having to work really hard on the motor control for speech, it eats up his processing. It's all intertwined.

[LaughingCat]

WHY ISN'T THERE A BOOK WITH SIMPLE EXERCISES (LIKE DIGIT SPANS) TO IMPROVE WORKING MEMORY?:banghead: Maybe there is, and I don't know about it. If anyone knows one, please tell me!!!!!

 

 

I'd also love to :bigear: about anything people have found to use at home for working memory.

 

I am planning on getting Linguisystem's No Glamour Memory (in the upcoming sale) which appears to at least have some digit strings etc. based on the sample pages. Also it's by the same person as their first EF book which many have recommended here. They also have a book called "Help for Memory". Both seem very focused on teaching strategies for memory though.

 

Also some things for auditory memory only:

I have Working Out with Listening from Super Duper which has various lists/directions to remember/repeat - however we've done the first few "workouts" and the number sequences offered so far are impossible for her while she has had no trouble at all with any of the other sections (which may say more about DD's particular memory problems than it does about that book).

 

Also Super Duper's "Auditory Processing & Expressive Language Activities book has a 20 page section on Auditory Memory that appears to have various length sentences (1 sample of that particular section). There is also "Auditory Processing Activities by the same author (no memory section samples). I don't have either of these though and the price is out of my range unless I have more info/more surety they're what DD needs.

 

For visual memory, cogmed has a free game (that demos their expensive product)

[peacefully]

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[peacefully]

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[VinNY]

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WHY ISN'T THERE A BOOK WITH SIMPLE EXERCISES (LIKE DIGIT SPANS) TO IMPROVE WORKING MEMORY?:banghead: Maybe there is, and I don't know about it. If anyone knows one, please tell me!!!!!

 

 

 

Carolyn

http://www.amazon.com/Auditory-Sequential-Memory-Instructional-Workbook/dp/0972776230

 

I have been using this book. I also use it to quiz my dtr on backward digit spans. There are strings of numbers, letters and words.

[PeterPan]

Yllek, PROMPT is for the motor control. If he has motor control problems underlying his articulation issues, then yes PROMPT can help. I've also found, in talking to people, that the really, really good PROMPT therapists have their pulse on other stuff (since of course they're SLP's to start with) and can direct you if it's not the direction you need. But definitely get the best you can find if you're going to do it. They show the levels of training on the locator map. The one we're using is certified. There's level 1, level 2/bridging, certified, and instructors. There's going to be a big range of quality and experience within that. You have where the person is to start with and then what they've learned of the technique. Sometimes the one can balance out the other, but in general I suggest looking for the higher training. Some of the ones who've done only level 1 are just in it for CEUs, not because they really plan to implement it seriously.

 

Well this will be fascinating if it's one of your pieces. Never know till you try. I always suggest calling or talking with them. Ours was very generous, talking with me for an hour on the phone on her dime before we ever went in.

[peacefully]

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[myboyluvsdinos]

As always, I appreciate your advice, OhE. I'm a little bummed because once again, since we live in fairly rural area, I've got only one provider in my area, and I will have to commit to a ton of driving if I get totally obsessive about finding the highest certified provider and all that. The nearest person is Level 1. The nearest Level 2/Bridging is over two hours away, and then there are only 2 people from which to choose. The nearest certified provider is over three hours away. *sigh*

 

I'm not sure if motor control is exactly what I'm seeing with my ds's articulation, but he clearly has pervasive motor control issues, so I think it's worth checking out. Thanks for the additional information! :001_smile:

 

I'm running into the same problem. I tried to contact the level 2 clinician in our city, and her phone just rang and rang -- no voice mail? So then I emailed her, but haven't heard anything. I'm wondering if she's no longer here. About 3 hours away is a level 1 provider, but there's no way I'm doing that. :001_huh:

 

So now what? Wait 15 years for the PROMPT book to come out?

 

I will say that while I think this idea is worth pursuing, I think that my guy has so many variables that contribute to his speech issues that this still would not be a magic bullet for him. He's also got the poor working memory, slow processing speed, word retrieval, dyslexia, and his introverted personality.

 

Carolyn