grades in colllege

[Only me]

My oldest dd is a sophomore in college. She was homeschooled 3rd through 8th grade. She went to public high school freshman year. She had a ton of homework (5+ hours a night) but it was mostly busy work. She got straight A's. Sophomore through senior year she went to a private high school. The classes there were more challenging and the grading scale was tougher and she still got mostly A's even with a few honor's classes. She went to community college last year and again got straight A's.

 

She is a hard working student. Academics don't necessarily come easy to her but she has always been a very good student doing what it takes to get good grades. This year she is going to a private college. She is very different than most of the students she has met. She doesn't party all hours of the night or have boyfriends. I know that she is going to all of her classes and doing all of her homework and studying, etc.

 

Since she is a sophomore she is still taking mostly general education classes. She is currently getting one B, two C's and two D's (one which is a low D). This is so not like her and she is so stressed out about it. On her most recent history test she got a D+. Out of 40 students 7 failed and only 1 received an A. In another one of her classes 1/3 of the students received a D or an F with only a few getting A's or B's.

 

I can understand if she was the only one getting a bad grade or perhaps a few other students but is it usual for that many students in college to receive D's or F's on tests? This is also happening to a friend of hers who is a junior. She has gone to two other colleges and up until this year had a B+ average now she is getting low grades like my daughter.

 

My daughter has done study groups and is looking into a tutor but is actually going to have to drop one class since it seems like it will be close to impossible to get above a D in that class. She would rather withdraw then to have the D on her record.

 

You would think that if that many students are failing then it would be something that the teacher is doing wrong. I would appreciate your feedback.

[AngieW in Texas]

I know some majors have weedout courses that are extremely difficult to get good grades in and most kids take at least twice. You don't generally run into those with general education classes though.

[Brenda in MA]

I would suggest that she go to talk with the professors of the classes she is doing poorly in. She should express her frustration with the fact that she has been attending the classes and doing the assigned homework, but she is still doing poorly on the exams. She should ask the professor for pointers on how to study differently/better. She might bring her last exam and have the professor walk through it with her and explain to her how it was graded.

 

If the professor has regular office hours, I would suggest that she plan on stopping by every week for extra help until her grades improve. My experience (and my son's at college) is that the professors typically want to help you, but you have to seek out that help.

 

Does the school have a tutoring center? If so, she should use it to help her with papers and/or homework. Hopefully, she can also learn how each professor grades by looking at the first exam. Some professors emphasize class discussion topics on exams, others like to test on homework problems or topics discussed in the textbook. Knowing each professor's preference might help her to prepare better for the exams.

 

HTH,

Brenda

[regentrude]

Out of 40 students 7 failed and only 1 received an A. In another one of her classes 1/3 of the students received a D or an F with only a few getting A's or B's.

 

I can understand if she was the only one getting a bad grade or perhaps a few other students but is it usual for that many students in college to receive D's or F's on tests?

 

My daughter has done study groups and is looking into a tutor but is actually going to have to drop one class since it seems like it will be close to impossible to get above a D in that class. She would rather withdraw then to have the D on her record.

 

You would think that if that many students are failing then it would be something that the teacher is doing wrong.

 

The bolded statement is incorrect. There are many reasons why students receive low grades in a college class:

 

1. The grading may be curved; a low grade on an exam does not mean a low grade in the class. Either the exam grades could be curved later to obtain a course grade based on the grade distribution, or there are grades associated with homework and quizzes which contribute to a higher course grade than the exam grade alone. (I have seen many courses where Cs on tests together with As on homework submissions will result in a B for the course.)

The school will have data on the course grade distribution and percentage of failing grades for the course.

 

2. The course may be designed so that a student who does average work receives a grade of C and only students who demonstrate outstanding mastery of the subject receive a grade of A. This is hard to accept for students who are used to grade inflation in high school.

 

3. Underperforming students may not be studying effectively. In my class, about 20- 25% of the students will receive a grade of D or F and will have to repeat the class, every single semester. Without exception these are students who do not do all of the following:

 

 

• complete assigned reading before class and take notes on it

 

 

 

• attend each class and take notes

 

 

 

• submit all assignments

 

 

 

• attend help sessions, tutoring, office hours (not necessary for a good student, but definitely necessary for an underperforming student)

 

 

 

• spend two hours outside of class for every hour in class (Some students get by with less; underperforming students should first increase time on task)

 

Every single student who fails my class either has missed assignments, or missed lectures, or does not make use of the learning assistance offered by the university.

 

I know that there are bad instructors, but the conclusion "low grades must mean the teacher is doing something wrong" is not a valid one.

 

As specific suggestions for your DD, she should examine if she is already doing all the things I have listed under 3. If not, she should see if implementing these strategies leads to better success.

Edited November 8, 2011 by regentrude

[Only me]

I didn't mean to imply that I was blaming her teacher for her doing bad on the test. I just was surprised that there would be that many students who received a failing grade on the test. In this particular class the grade distribution is written on the board. This is the 3rd test of the semester. The same thing happened on the other two as far as that many students failing. She hasn't failed any of them.

 

In this particular class grades are based solely on the test grades-no papers and no homework grades.

 

She has told me all the work she has put into this class including attending all classes, doing all the readings and assignments, taking good notes in class and going over them nightly, study groups and meeting with the teacher.

[regentrude]

She has told me all the work she has put into this class including attending all classes, doing all the readings and assignments, taking good notes in class and going over them nightly, study groups and meeting with the teacher.

 

In that case, she should make an appointment with her instructor and ask what the instructor would recommend she do in order to improve her performance.

I occasionally have students who put in all the hours and still do not perform as well as their effort would suggest; in those cases there is always some issue with how they study, and a conversation with the instructor would be the way to analyze this and come up with a way to improve.

Good luck to your DD.

[kiana]

What Regentrude said. Talk to the professors. They're far better able to give advice about her specific situation than people on an internet board.

[rocketgirl]

If she's suddenly gone from straight A's to one B, two C's and two D's (one which is a low D) in one year, I'd try to think outside the box like maybe there is something else going on ... like maybe needing a lighter schedule, or just a change, or some time off. She sounds like a really good student. What does she say?

[choirfarm]

A couple of things:

 

1. It is late now, but for next semester make sure she asks all of her friends about the profs she is considering. Research them on rateyourprofessor or on the college's website where they should have end of course evaluations. Some profs are just really hard and do only give out one or two A's or sometimes none (like dh's Spanish teacher at Baylor: one of his only 2 B's in college. The other one was a freshman English course taught by a grad student.)

 

2. Many times I think that students are used to the teachers in high school telling them exactly what should be on the test. In college, you have to figure it out yourself. Plus in high school there are multiple choice and true false. At college it is short answer, identify and essay. I will tell you how I studied for my tests, and I have discovered that I must have been a strange student because I've never heard of anyone else doing this.

 

First of all have her get out the previous tests for the class. How are they designed? A little over week before the test, I made my own test full of terms I thought I should know, possible essay and short answer questions, etc. I put it away for a day or so. Then I took my test and graded it with my class notes/textbook. I then studied the parts I did poorly on and made out another test ( including questions I may have just gotten lucky on). I concentrated on what I DID NOT KNOW. Many people study the same material they are familiar with. It worked well.

 

Some of my classes were all essay. I remember having a British history class and there were two grades: midterm and the final. The final ended up being a massive essay that took up 2 or 3 blue books. Something like discuss the history between Ireland and England from 1650-1950. UGG.. For tests that were mainly essay, I would list out possible topics and then put brief notes about the major points. Then I would go to a deserted classroom and basically pretend I was lecturing about the topic. I would then look at my notes and highlight what I missed. I would study that and the next day do it again.

 

I never pulled an all-nighter. I am incapable of that. Even as a college student, it was rare for me to be in bed past 10. I was generally up by 5 or 6. I have always been a morning person.

 

I don't know if these tips will help. Do have her talk to the professors as well.

 

Christine

[Jane in NC]

Regentrude, Brenda and Christine gave you some good advice, but I would like to mention another thing. You wrote that your daughter attends a private college. They should have a Learning Center where students can receive assistance on study skills and general organization.

 

Success at a community college does not necessarily translate to success at a four year college or university. Unfortunately many of the community colleges do not seem to have the same expectations of students--despite various articulation agreements that the CCs may have. I suspect that the professor in question is asking for more than regurgitation of material from lectures and the assigned readings. Developing critical thinking skills to see beyond the presented material can be challenging but I suspect that her professor can guide her. Are she and other students in the class getting together to discuss the content?

[Nan in Mass]

That doesn't sound that unusual to me, to have a goodly chunk of the class getting below a 2.0. My son's chemistry prof posts the grade distribution on the board and when it looks about like that, he says, "Ah-I got the test just right. A perfect bell curve." It was a rude eye-openner for my son when there were three history questions on the first test, nothing he had been warned about. The prof had said that if you did all the homework, you would "do fine". His definition of fine was a C, not an A. We pointed out that those history questions were meant to divide out the A's from the B's. Luckily, my son did study hard for the test, not just rely on having done the homework. He is discovering how very hard it is to get A's rather than B's or C's. For the next test, he studied the old test, and he asked more specific questions about what sorts of questions would be on the test. I would guess (from the evidence of a combined 9 years in college for my sons and 10 for my husband and me) that the problem is the type of questions. You can study history for the dates and events, or for the role different people play, or for how events influence other events, or for how people react to events, or ... It is a long list. If your daughter studied the wrong aspects, then she could well flunk the test, if she wasn't used to thinking about history's connections and drawing conclusions from events. Did the prof give some sort of guidelines at the beginning of the class about his goals - an "in this class you will learn" speech? That might give her some sort of clue as to which aspects are going to be emphasized. If not, perhaps she can ask the prof. At any rate, she might want to take the notes that she made to study from and her test to the prof and ask him where she went wrong, what catagory of things she missed, if she can't identify it herself. She should start by telling him how many hours she did study, so he doesn't think she is asking him to do her work for her. (Or maybe the prof is a woman. Just picked man so the pronouns would be different.)

 

I know how hard it is to watch your child struggle and try to offer useful advice from afar. Don't let anybody tell you that you can't or shouldn't make useful suggestions now that your child is in college. You can't do the work or micromanage or talk to the prof yourself or anything like that, but you can certainly make useful suggestions which will help her refine her study skills. My own parents did.

 

Nan

Edited November 9, 2011 by Nan in Mass

[Miss Marple]

My sons have had similar experiences in the freshman year (see this recent post).

 

I believe that going from the home to a full-time college/university experience is difficult even for the best students (as seen with my sons' National Merit roommates). Our community college and homeschool co-op were not nearly as rigorous as the university. So...they went from studying and getting A's to studying and getting C's or worse. The problem was that their perception of "how to/how much studying" was wrong. What was required for CC and homeschool was insufficient for the rigor of the university.

 

I'm happy to say that since I posted on the thread referenced above, my son has finally figured out what he needs to do to succeed. He has gotten straight A's in Calculus since then. His chemistry grades are better, but still not where they need to be. But he is figuring it out, learning to seek out the help resources provided by the university, and understanding that the amount of studying required is far greater than what he did in high school.

 

I think there is an adjustment period for many kids considering the amount/type of changes they experience when moving from home to university. My sons were homesick, learning to deal with roommates, learning how to schedule their lives (learning that "fun" comes after the work is done), learning to swallow their pride and ask for help, and learning how to interpret what a professor is looking for on a test. These are all very big life issues. I wish we could get them through these *before* sending them out, but I still haven't figured out how to do that.

 

Is it correct to say that she is in her first year at the private college? My sons entered university with enough credits to make them sophomores, but were still considered first time freshmen. If your daughter is in her first year post-CC, I would guess that she is in a period of adjustment. It may be that this particular college is not a good fit for her academically. One of the things I told my sons is that there will be bad teachers and my sons' job is to figure out the best way to "get through it". It's just one of those hoops one must jump through to get to the goal. And, it's OK to be less than a straight A student.

[TravelingChris]

What kind of tests are these? We may be able to advise better if we know the type of test. For example, at my daughter's school, most of the tests are Scantron.

 

With my daughter, who was in co-op, group lessons outside co-op, cc class, and regular homeschool, she is finding college easier. Why? Mainly because she has more time- she used to be in speech and debate with lots of research to do both for debate and extemporaneous, in two choirs, editor of the co-op newspaper, and president of the Honor society. She was totally swamped. Now she has lots of time to study.

 

But she also says that many fellow students are either not reading the material, not paying attention in class, or simply not understanding the material. She is taking a poli sci class where she recently got a 104/100 on a test. She didn't understand how that happened since there were no extra credit points. I told her I think so many students got one or two questions wrong that he didn't count off for them for the others but since she got them right, she was given credit for them. I don't know whether she can see the grade distribution but she does know that many students are unhappy with their grades. Her contention is that if you read the assignments, read the syllabus, and pay attention in class, you really should do well. Oh and I should mention that she does have some memory issues and we were concerned how she would do but she is exceeding all of our expectations.

[Only me]

I just wanted to say thank you for all the wonderful advice. I agree with Nan that even though our children are in college we can still offer them advice. It is ultimately my dd's responsibility and of course she is the one who has to take the initiative and talk to her professors, etc. but I still want her to know that she can still come to me for help.

 

After reading all of the above posts I think that it is a combination of factors for my dd. First of all, I think it is a rude awakening for her from being a straight A student to barely getting by in a few classes. This is her first year away from home. Even though her high school was fairly rigorous the community college she went to was very easy. In high school she did have one teacher in particular who demanded a lot from his students. His essay expectations on tests were very high and I believe that the type of work that she had to do in a few of his classes really prepared her well for college. On the other hand, I think that there is a learning curve when starting a 4 year college. I think there are a lot fewer chances for grades (fewer tests, less papers, no homework grades). I also think a few of you hit the nail on the head that so much more is expected on the tests. In high school I think you know more of what to expect on the test. In history especially there are so many possibilities.

 

My daughter has tried to make use of some of the study resources available but I think she will need to use them even more next semester. Even though she was a great student in high school and I do think that she is studying hard, I don't think she realized how many extra things she needs to do: study groups, tutors, meeting with professors. She has done some of these things, but not for all of her classes. She is a bit overwhelmed. I think next semester she will know more of what to expect. She also has a better idea of which professors to pick for classes. She went to a tutor last week for one of her classes and was told that particular professor has a high amount of students that need to be tutored.

 

I'm sure there are other things that are also making it a difficult first semester. I think she has been homesick at times and since she doesn't "party" socially it hasn't been the best semester. At times she has felt like she is the only one at her school who doesn't drink or sleep around. I think this has made her a bit depressed. She is also getting used to the dorm being loud at all hours of the day and late into the night and just a different style of life in general. She belongs to a few different clubs (a few for her major and a sorority that she is joining). Most of those meetings start late in the evening (8 or 9:00). Even though last year she was often up late studying she was home most evenings and starting things at 9:00 is a big change for her. I'm hoping that next semester when she is officially part of the sorority and gets to know more people from her major she will meet more people who have similar values and interests. This isn't a sorority that she will live at. It is an interest based one (christian). I don't think that these clubs are necessarily taking away from her study time and I think that she does need some kind of a social outlet, but of course it does add a bit to her plate.

 

I'm going to talk to my dd this afternoon and give her a few of these suggestions. I'm hoping that she can manage to do really well on her finals and bring up a few of those grades. I have a strong feeling that next semester will be better for her since she knows more of what to expect and what she needs to do to succeed.

[Jane in NC]

For example, at my daughter's school, most of the tests are Scantron.

 

 

Really? I actually emailed my son when I saw this. He said that "form" tests are illegal at his school. ;)

 

Jane (who shudders at the thought of Scantron exams!)

[TravelingChris]

Well, really it does depend. In Poly Sci, I know it is scantron. In math, it is a computer test. In English, it is not a scantron but then the teacher is basing most of the grade on papers. I think Music may be scantron too but I am not sure. Her class has only 20 students in it but most of the other sections are huge. I know the smaller classes do not do multiple choice tests but most of the large classes do, especially the classes with tons of sections of the same class.

 

It doesn't particularly bother her what kind of test she has as long as the written test would not be lowering her grade for spelling.

 

One of the things that most concerned me about her going to a large school- whether she would be just one in a sea of students- has been happily denied. All of her instructors and teachers know her- she sits up front, asks relevant questions, obviously has done the reading and assignments, and so they have all taken notice of her. As have other students who also give her compliments.

[memphispeg]

I'd have to mention that I was "stunned" by my grades in sophomore chem. I had to invent an entire new way of learning things for myself. I think I expected to be "taught" by the prof. and was not (it was after all a weed-out class). I talked to chem. majors and people who had taken the class with that prof. and with other ones and came up with a pretty good idea of what and how I had to teach myself. I got help the minute I felt shaky on anything (tutoring costs per session = 1 beer + 1 green flair pen + 1 legal pad or ice cream + chocolate sauce + white paper + #1 pencil). I found some fellow older students who really understood the material well and could explain it beautifully.

Dh was stunned by a course in grad. school. Remedy was me going over his old tests and papers and formulating a study plan.....Sunday afternoons by the pool were spent drilling for memorization tests.

The best advice I can come up with in your dd's situation is that she reach out to the prof and others and just get to the bottom of "why" she did not do well. Then, change her study habits and thinking towards a better direction.

[FairProspects]

A few thoughts for the history test from a former history major and secondary teacher not that far out from college/grad school ;):

 

1. Your dd needs to make a list of all "terms" covered in class lecture and the textbook when studying for the test. For each of these terms, she needs to know the date range, what occurred, and the significance of the event. Extrapolation to other philosophies or movements would be great.

 

These may be specific like:

Lexington and Concord (1775)

"Shot heard 'round the world", first military engagements between the British soldiers and American militiamen, considered the beginnings of the American Revolutionary War, shots began in Lexington, MA

 

Or more general like:

American Revolutionary war (1775-1783)

Conflict between American colonies and Great Britain for sovereignty, began the "Age of Revolution", America's independence inspired the French Revolution (1789)

 

This is very simplified, but is a great way to study for the test whether scantron or short answer. In a short answer situation, your dd should try to state one fact per point (ex. question is worth 5 points, you need 5 facts including event description, date, and significance along with at least 2 others).

 

2. For essay questions, ask her if she is taking a few minutes to outline her thesis and supporting arguments before beginning. A safe (albeit formulaic) starting point is to examine the political, economic, and social aspects of an event from different perspectives.

 

3. Timing. Suggest that she paces herself accordingly. If the test is given in a 50 min period and includes 4 short answers and 1 essay, she should budget approx. 20 min. on the short answer section and 30 min. (5 on outlining) on the essay.

 

Hope some of that was helpful! I used to work in the University tutoring dept. and for Kaplan in SAT tutoring, so some of these test tips are from those days. :)

[JFSinIL]

My son is now a sophomore at a LAC that has a trimester system - he just got his grades for Fall term and was happy to survive Organic Chem 1 ( a 300 level class) with a B+ - what saved him was the professor telling them at the last minute that he would grade on a curve. Otherwise I hate to think what the grade would be, ds said that the class was HARD! He got a solid B in a Philosophy class (also hard, he said) and A in Cell Biology - he credits knowing most of the material already from AP Bio in high school for that A.

 

Winter term he has four classes - will see how he holds up. Each term is 10-weeks accelerated, instead of 15 weeks, so 3 - 4 classes is all they are allowed to take.

[distancia]

I would like to add something. My dd is attending a very high-status, small LAC. She did phenomenally being home-schooled her last 2 years of high school in the comm coll and thus, she walked into college as a Freshman with 36 credit hours and a 3.9 GPA under her belt. Well!

 

She's failing Gen Chem I, despite hours and hours of study (and we see her doing it here at home with hubby). She is receiving "mediocre" critiques of her essays--this, for a girl who had a 750 on her Reading/Writing SATs! [she IS doing well in 2 other classes.]

 

Anyway, we've figured out what is going on. First, DD never paid much attention to Chem in high school. So in her Gen Chem class she is up against Science majors who have had AP Chemistry in high school. The prof told dd (the two have met several times) "I don't know why those advanced students are in my class, they should be in O-Chem, but they're the majority in my class so I have no option but to accelerate the course and curve the grades." Also, my dd is deficient in a few elementary but key areas of math which were crucial to the early chapters of work.

 

Now, about the other class, a general ed class: dd brought her essay exam home and let me look it over. I KNEW what the issues were, and why the prof marked her down. Unfortunately, my dd has a tendency to write very clearly and very simply. This is great for clarity, but the particular school my daughter attends (I know, 'cuz I'm a graduate!) is highly intellectual, and the students are what my hubby calls eggheads. If a four syllable word can replace a single syllable word, well, gosh darn it, use that big word! We were expected to use impressive vocab to better enhance our discourse and to prove how erudite we were.

 

Finally, part of the issue is the level of preparedness: dd has discovered that the majority of students have attended private, college prep schools, and I mean the name schools, like Choate, Andover/Exeter, Bolles, etc. The kids have been groomed for a long, long time...whereas my poor darling feels like a hick who just stepped off the farm....

 

Hope this helps.

Edited November 12, 2011 by distancia

[Bluegoat]

This seems a bit weird to me. My expectation would be that most students who did their work conscientiously would expect Cs and Bs, the really talented ones who were doing something a bit exceptional would be getting the As. Those are the ones that are expected to go on to graduate work and beyond. To my mind, university is not like high school where you need only to complete the requirements to get a high grade.

[TravelingChris]

Distancia, since you have also said your daughter dislikes the school and wants to transfer, I don't know why you insist on her going there. As far as the writing goes, clearer is better. Any English department that values verbosity over clarity is completely suspect in my view.

JMHO

[TranquilMind]

If she's suddenly gone from straight A's to one B, two C's and two D's (one which is a low D) in one year, I'd try to think outside the box like maybe there is something else going on ... like maybe needing a lighter schedule, or just a change, or some time off. She sounds like a really good student. What does she say?

Right. This is such a vast change that I would be concerned that something else is going on. Is anyone bullying her?

 

Or maybe, the schools she attended simply weren't as demanding as they presented themselves to be. I worry about that sometimes with my daughter's "top" charter school. She just doesn't have to work very hard. But she is really smart, so who knows?

 

I dunno, but I'd be interested to know what your daughter thinks is the cause of her drop off in grades.

[Nan in Mass]

SPAM

[JFSinIL]

SPAM

 

????????????????? I see no Hormel canned meat products????

[Nan in Mass]

Or canned sweet potatoes. Can't have spam without canned sweet potatoes lol.

[distancia]

The problem was that their perception of "how to/how much studying" was wrong. What was required for CC and homeschool was insufficient for the rigor of the university.

 

I think there is an adjustment period for many kids considering the amount/type of changes they experience when moving from home to university. My sons were homesick, learning to deal with roommates, learning how to schedule their lives (learning that "fun" comes after the work is done), learning to swallow their pride and ask for help, and learning how to interpret what a professor is looking for on a test. These are all very big life issues. I wish we could get them through these *before* sending them out, but I still haven't figured out how to do that.

:iagree:

 

My DD (who I wrote about earlier) 3.9 GPA at comm coll, impressive SAT scores, just called me last night and told me she's come to the conclusion that she has to change her studying techniques. I never heard the "you were right, mom" words come directly from her mouth, but she sure was close!

 

While she was applying to the highly-selective LAC she now attends, I impressed upon her over and over again that school is a full-time job, which translates into 40+ hours a week of work. I told her there is no getting around it: whether you decide to work 8 am to 5 pm, or noon to 10 pm, it's going to have to be a solid 8+ hours a day. I told her that when I ate breakfast, I had my cereal spoon in one hand and my textbook in another. Lunch in the cafeteria was the opportunity to review my notes. Dinner was accompanied by yet another textbook. I told her I did my hardest loads in the morning--research has shown that math and science are best done in the early hours--and any novels that had to be read were done while walking on the treadmill/sitting by the pool/waiting at the doctor's office/lying in bed at night. In other words, I had to plan my extensive study schedule and stick to it.

 

Of course, DD thought she was twice as smart as I, and she could whip the work out in half the time. :lol: :lol::lol:

 

Just a thought.

Edited November 17, 2011 by distancia

[TravelingChris]

What distancia describes about how college is a 40 hour a week job is what it is for my daughter at least. She does do what distancia described about what she did in college. Dd eats and studies, she gets to room early and reads, does math, or studies, she studies until about 8 or 9 and then calls it a day and relaxes. But that mean she studies from 12 hours a day. Plus her weekends are also spent doing some work. That is how my dd is getting all the A;s,