Horse people: question about accidents/horse misbehavior

[shanvan]

This week, at a lesson, the mare my daughter rides fairly often went berserk and decided to defy Dd. I was there. I saw it. She just did not want to do what Dd asked her to do. She took off and then bucked repeatedly launching Dd into the air. I'm not talking about a small buck--this pony put everything she had into it! Dd came down almost fairly even. Her whole body hit the ground and bounced :eek:--very scary! Her mouth was full of dirt. I was sure something would be broken, but she is okay.

 

Well, her great uncle (who has ridden and been around horses his entire life) and dad both say no more riding this pony for dd. There are limited ponies available where she rides. The other parents and the owners of the farm say these things happen and if you ride you have to expect to fall off. I understand falling off if a horse spokes from time to time or runs out on a jump, but this just seems worse to me. I rode for years and still do on occasion, but I have never had a horse buck. I'm being told by many parents that bucking someone off is normal behavior for horses from time to time when they're feeling ornery. I'm not sure I think that should be the case with ponies being used for lessons with young kids.

 

They are also saying she behaved this way because the hired man has not been giving her 'mare magic' which keeps her hormones from going crazy. Apparently she wanted to be with her boyfriend. Even if this is true, how can I ever trust her? I have no way of knowing if she is or isn't getting it.

 

I also want to add that this mare is not nice to catch. She turns around and threatens to kick. I've been told she has kicked one of the kids. She also puts her ears back and tries to bite both when being caught and when being tacked up.

 

So, would you let your kids have anything further to do with this pony? I just don't think I can trust her. I have a feeling Dd is going to be encouraged to get on her again.

 

I will say, that from my experience riding her I always thought she is the easiest pony to learn on. I've never seen her do this before and she has always been obedient in the ring except for being difficult to keep moving. She has always been nasty to catch and tack. She almost got my ear once. I heard her teeth as they just swept by narrowly missing my ear!

 

We are only at the barn 1-2 times a week (don't have the money for leasing), so plenty goes on that I don't see or know about. It is entirely possible she has done something similar before. Actually, the girl who leases her said she did this early in the spring when she hadn't been used much. I've also been told she sometimes misbehaves at horse shows. We have only been at a few shows this year, and i haven't noticed anything, so I'm not sure what is meant by that comment.

 

So, horsey people what comments and advice do you have for me??? TIA

 

 

 

[FaithManor]

This week, at a lesson, the mare my daughter rides fairly often went berserk and decided to defy Dd. I was there. I saw it. She just did not want to do what Dd asked her to do. She took off and then bucked repeatedly launching Dd into the air. I'm not talking about a small buck--this pony put everything she had into it! Dd came down almost fairly even. Her whole body hit the ground and bounced :eek:--very scary! Her mouth was full of dirt. I was sure something would be broken, but she is okay.

 

Well, her great uncle (who has ridden and been around horses his entire life) and dad both say no more riding this pony for dd. There are limited ponies available where she rides. The other parents and the owners of the farm say these things happen and if you ride you have to expect to fall off. I understand falling off if a horse spokes from time to time or runs out on a jump, but this just seems worse to me. I rode for years and still do on occasion, but I have never had a horse buck. I'm being told by many parents that bucking someone off is normal behavior for horses from time to time when they're feeling ornery. I'm not sure I think that should be the case with ponies being used for lessons with young kids.

 

They are also saying she behaved this way because the hired man has not been giving her 'mare magic' which keeps her hormones from going crazy. Apparently she wanted to be with her boyfriend. Even if this is true, how can I ever trust her? I have no way of knowing if she is or isn't getting it.

 

I also want to add that this mare is not nice to catch. She turns around and threatens to kick. I've been told she has kicked one of the kids. She also puts her ears back and tries to bite both when being caught and when being tacked up.

 

So, would you let your kids have anything further to do with this pony? I just don't think I can trust her. I have a feeling Dd is going to be encouraged to get on her again.

 

I will say, that from my experience riding her I always thought she is the easiest pony to learn on. I've never seen her do this before and she has always been obedient in the ring except for being difficult to keep moving. She has always been nasty to catch and tack. She almost got my ear once. I heard her teeth as they just swept by narrowly missing my ear!

 

We are only at the barn 1-2 times a week (don't have the money for leasing), so plenty goes on that I don't see or know about. It is entirely possible she has done something similar before. Actually, the girl who leases her said she did this early in the spring when she hadn't been used much. I've also been told she sometimes misbehaves at horse shows. We have only been at a few shows this year, and i haven't noticed anything, so I'm not sure what is meant by that comment.

 

So, horsey people what comments and advice do you have for me??? TIA

 

 

 

 

 

This is not a trustworthy animal. That's my main thought. The biting and kicking when caught on top of the ornery behavior in the saddle seems to indicate that this animal has not been properly trained or disciplined.

 

I.do.not.abide.bucking. A spooked animal may run, hop and then run, etc. But, bucking is not about being scared or startled.

 

If you do not want your daughter to be afraid to ride, you may need to find another stable and have an experienced, compassionate trainer put her on the back of some nice, gentle, trustworthy steed. But, I cannot recommend that your daughter be placed on this animal again. I think something worse could happen.

 

You may want to do one thing...check the tack and make sure there wasn't a burr or something similar under the saddle blanket/pad. Sharp, shooting pains caused from something being driven into the horse's back due to the weight of the tack and rider can cause fierce bucking. The question in this case is, How did the animal act post bucking? The one case of bucking due to pain that I have seen, resulted in the animal, once realizing that his rider might be injured, becoming very demure. There was also some trembling until the saddle was removed as the burr was still causing pain.

 

The other possibility is that the mare is one of those that turns positively witchy when in estrus. But again, a mare with that kind of PMS would not be one that I would allow my child to ride.

 

Faith

[Once Again]

I don't think your daughter should ride this horse again.

[Bluegoat]

Why not consider putting her on a horse if more are available? My dds have both ridden the same horse since they were three.

[simka2]

This has never happened before? Honestly, it sounds to like this pony does not have the temperment for school horse. At least not for very young children.

How old is dd? Did she get back on? Does dd want to ride this pony?

 

Edited: I would let dd 10 back on this pony under certain conditions. One is that I would have been on that ponies back in a moment having an attitude ajustment. 2 the next lesson would be a lungeing lesson and your dd would be strongly encouraged to arrive early to lessons to lunge said pony before she rides.

Edited November 4, 2011 by simka2

[shanvan]

This has never happened before? Honestly, it sounds to like this pony does not have the temperment for school horse. At least not for very young children.

How old is dd? Did she get back on? Does dd want to ride this pony?

 

Edited: I would let dd 10 back on this pony under certain conditions. One is that I would have been on that ponies back in a moment having an attitude ajustment. 2 the next lesson would be a lungeing lesson and your dd would be strongly encouraged to arrive early to lessons to lunge said pony before she rides.

 

No, she does not want to ride her again. I have no control over how they train the pony. They did have another girl get on her right away to 'straighten the pony out'. Dd is 9 and she did get on a different pony the same day. I don't think I want her to get on this pony again b/c I don't trust that she won't do the same thing again.

 

I'm trying to assess how the situation is being handled and get some other opinions so that I can decide how much I want to believe about what I am being told by all the people at the barn. My concern is that possibly not enough attention is being paid to safety, but I don't want to be unfair. Obviously there are risks involved in a sport like riding. My own experience is somewhat limited. I've consistently ridden about 4 different horses during the past 20 years and have never encountered anything remotely like this. I don't recall ever hearing about anything like this happening at our old barn either.

 

I guess I'm looking for opinions or insight so that I can make future decisions at this barn. Just trying to see if the trainer and parents' attitudes are a little cavalier. It seems everyone honestly expected Dd to ride this pony at a show tomorrow. They all seem surprised that I said no.

[shanvan]

Why not consider putting her on a horse if more are available? My dds have both ridden the same horse since they were three.

 

I would be fine with that if there were something suitable available. I don't think her skills are up to the level required to ride the horses available at this barn. Ds(13) rides several of the horses, but he is more advanced and has been riding longer.

[simka2]

well I am fondly known as a saftey nazi. That said, I have had lesson horses have complete meltdowns for no known reasons. They can lose it over a change in the weather. They shouldn't, but they can. Especially, if there was a couple nice days followed by a temp dive.

I have also had a small lesson pony that was a notorious bucker, but one little girl just loved him. Eventually, as a college student she came back and bought him as a pasture pet.

Just an fyi, I see more bucking in the hunter/jumper world than in the western world.

I do not know if saftey is lacking. On one side I agree with the other parents, on the other if this mare has a history of violent meltdowns resulting in child dumps there is a problem.

[CanaryMelody]

Short answer to your question:

Absolutely not. I wouldn't let my daughter on that horse ever again. Maybe not at that barn either.

 

At a riding facility, I personally would consider this behavior unacceptable. At the barn my daughter learned to ride at, riders are put on easy, docile, VERY well trained horses. The horses allow themselves to be caught with little fanfare. They stand quietly to be groomed and tacked up. If a horse started acting up, our trainer would work that horse. If she intends on putting an intermediate rider on a more spirited horse, the horse may get bitted up and lunged to take the edge off the horse's energy before being ridden. But a young or beginning rider wouldn't be put on this kind of horse. (And by spirited, I don't mean biting or kicking a rider. NO HORSE would be allowed to be near a child if they kicked and bit. Shoot! Our trainer wouldn't put adults on a kicking/biting horse.)

 

We own a mare who gets quite ornery when in heat. Any other time, she is responsive and submissive. She has bucked my oldest off a few times (3 times in 3 years all of them most recently when she moved from her long term boarding home to our new rental home... we've had a few issues adjusting to life here that we are working out. She just happened to be in heat, too). But she never bucked in a you-go-flying-through-the-air sort of way. DD just gets dumped to the ground.

 

Even so, I personally do not consider BUCKING normal behavior in a well trained horse, especially at a riding facility. Getting spooked, running unexpectedly off, and the rider gets dumped in the process? Yes. Bucking, kicking, biting? No. Especially at a riding facility with 8 year old (and younger) riders. They should have dependable, quiet horses.

 

Mares when in heat can tend to be more ornery. But I disagree with giving this horse "Mare Magic" as a solution. (Side note: I find it ironic that "Mare Magic" is suppose to "influence calmness" yet they blame this supplement on the reason she bucked.) This mare should simply not be available to ride when in heat for a beginner or young rider. Maybe a rider that is advanced, but not a beginning or young rider.

 

I also wanted to add that if this horse normally acts like this (hard to catch, bucks, kicks, bites, etc.) during other times and not just when in heat, then this riding facility is a great disservice for their young clients. I would wonder about the other horses there and the training/instructor practices at this barn.

 

I know you have limited available places to ride so this make it all that much harder. I would find out through talking to other riders/parents and through your own observation, if this particular mare acts like this all the time or just in heat. Ask the other riders/parents about the other horses as well. Perhaps your DS may have input? I wouldn't ask the owner/trainer/instructor. They may just give you an answer you want to hear rather than the truth.

 

Just my opinion, though. Sorry to hear about your troubles. Sounds much like our first barn. They had her cantering within 2 weeks of her very first horse ride. We left that barn quickly. :glare:

 

ETA: Just to be more precise, I know horses are unpredictable animals and things can happen for little or no reason. I think the burden is on the riding facility to understand the moods and physical state of their horses and assign appropriately to riders based on their age and level of experience. I still believe that lesson horses should be pretty dependable, though. If a horse has a history of repeated misbehavior, they need to train this horse and not let young riders on her until it is sorted.

Edited November 5, 2011 by cbmrj777
clarification

[shanvan]

I also wanted to add that if this horse normally acts like this (hard to catch, bucks, kicks, bites, etc.) during other times and not just when in heat, then this riding facility is a great disservice for their young clients. I would wonder about the other horses there and the training/instructor practices at this barn.

 

Yup, this is exactly what I've been asking myself lately.

I know you have limited available places to ride so this make it all that much harder. I would find out through talking to other riders/parents and through your own observation, if this particular mare acts like this all the time or just in heat. Ask the other riders/parents about the other horses as well.

 

 

I've been doing this for the past week and I can tell I'm not making any friends. They all seem to spout the party line. I told one parent how surprised I was and she said "oh, no. She was worse last spring." The general attitude seems to be that this is how horses get from time to time. No big deal. Nothing to get upset about. I'm getting strange looks and uncomfortable silences b/c I won't let her ride in the show tomorrow on the same pony.

 

Perhaps your DS may have input? I wouldn't ask the owner/trainer/instructor. They may just give you an answer you want to hear rather than the truth.

 

Just my opinion, though. Sorry to hear about your troubles. Sounds much like our first barn. They had her cantering within 2 weeks of her very first horse ride. We left that barn quickly. :glare:

 

Yes, well, I'm wondering. I do think this trainer is pushing both my Dc to do a little more than they should without proper attention to mastering position, developing balance, etc. I've been frustrated lately at the trainer's push for my Dc to show when I can see that they cannot possibly be competitive with the other riders. Both Dd and Ds need more attention paid to their position. We had been enjoying ourselves at this barn and up until now the only falls Dc have had have been the usual occasional spook or run out on a jump--nothing that would alarm me.

[livingnlearning]

Well, there is something to be said for Mare Magic and possible magnesium supplementation. And checking saddle fit. And for ovarian cysts. or back injuries like kissing spine.

 

Flat out bucking is FEAR or PAIN or EVIL. If this has been a reasonable horse in the past then I would say that she really does need her hormone therapy or a physical, or a better saddle, or epsom salts, or something... Your posts describe a horse in pain to me.

 

But-it's not your horse. Nobody can micromanage a horse and control their every move, that's what your kid is supposed to be learning, but if there is something off about the horse it's the owner/trainer's job to fix it or find a suitable horse for your kid to ride. Horses get into loco weed, have hidden injuries, have deficiencies, pain, ect... lots of reasons a horse can go off the hook. You don't want your kid on there trying to work through it.

 

Here, again, I'm not a real freaker-outer about kids learning to ride. You have wrecks, horses are like riding huge deer, things happen. And they have happened to my kids, both in lessons and at home. But if your people know the mare is a freak and haven't managed her well there's no reason for your kid to be up there. I don't ever intentially put my kids on a wingy horse.

 

I'd tell them your kid isn't learning much horsemanship when she's bucking out their crabby mare so you'll be pulling her from the program. Done.

Edited November 5, 2011 by livingnlearning

[Cindyg]

I think this is more about trusting the instructor/facility than the pony.

 

You have no way to know whether this pony is safe for children (or whether she got her supplement yesterday, or whether her saddle fits her comfortably, or whether she had enough time in the pasture, or whether her bit is sitting correctly in her mouth . . . )

 

You're trusting your instructor to take appropriate care of your daughter's safety. Or not.

 

If not, you need to look elsewhere.

[Live2Ride]

Sounds like Miss Mare needs some serious ground manner training, but that should be done by someone who knows what they are doing and this pony should not be around children. Some horses do not like lesson life. Some do. SOme don't care either way, but this pony does not seem like a good fit.

 

Falling is never fun. Getting back on is important though, but not on a mean one.

[Ottakee]

Well, there is something to be said for Mare Magic and possible magnesium supplementation. And checking saddle fit. And for ovarian cysts. or back injuries like kissing spine.

 

Flat out bucking is FEAR or PAIN or EVIL. If this has been a reasonable horse in the past then I would say that she really does need her hormone therapy or a physical, or a better saddle, or epsom salts, or something... Your posts describe a horse in pain to me.

 

.

 

This was my thought too:

 

hard to catch

pins ears when tacking

biting

kicking

bucking

 

She might have a sore back, be out of alignment, have poor saddle fit, be in pain from being in heat, etc.

 

That said, it is the barn's responsibility to figure out what is going on and NOT put your daughter or other kids in possible harms way.

 

I also don't like that you said the barn is pushing your daughter more than she is ready for skill level wise.

 

I would seriously look for a 4H program where you can have her take lessons on a leader's horse or another barn, etc.

 

I am a safety nazi as well.

 

now, I have been bucked off several times---first horse I had we found out had severe back issues and was in major pain. Next horse bucked out of the blue---sold the next day. My current horse bucked quite a bit and I came off a few weeks ago BUT (and this is huge) he stepped on a nest of yellow jackets and I didnt' know that was the issue and didn't let him "get out of dodge" and we were both being stung as I went flying. He thought stopped looked at me and headed to the barn where he was very patiently waiting for me.

[Brigitte]

I think this is more about trusting the instructor/facility than the pony.

 

You have no way to know whether this pony is safe for children (or whether she got her supplement yesterday, or whether her saddle fits her comfortably, or whether she had enough time in the pasture, or whether her bit is sitting correctly in her mouth . . . )

 

You're trusting your instructor to take appropriate care of your daughter's safety. Or not.

 

If not, you need to look elsewhere.

 

:iagree: What does the trainer have to say about it? That is what is most important. If you don't trust what he is telling you, you need to find another bar. If they don't have a pony there that IS suitable for your dd's ability, you need to find another barn.

[5knights3maidens]

Just want to say (I posted this on my blog) that my 2 dds were thrown off their horses this week also. The first got spooked by ice falling off the roof which in turn spooked the 2nd horse. My oldest went hard and the 2nd not as much. (I screamed :tongue_smilie:) After the instructors calmed the horses down the girls got right back on.

I hope your dd is ok. :001_smile:

[scrapbookbuzz]

Horses DO buck. Even the gentle ones. BTDT. However, it sounds like that this pony is done with your daughter and your daughter should be with her.

[Jackie in NE]

I wouldn't put put either of my daughters on a horse like that. There's no excuse for poor ground manners, which this pony clearly has. Ground manners are indicative of the overall "personality" of the horse, and this horse is a twit. Not to say the horse can't be turned around. What it probably needs is a lot of miles with a capable, experienced rider. But that's NOT the kind of horse that one should use for lessons. Make sure she gets a decent horse for her next lesson. She should be enjoying learning about riding, and the partnership between horse and rider, not worrying about getting bitten, kicked, or dumped.

 

Good Luck, Jackie

[shanvan]

Just home from the horse show to grab gloves. It's hard for Dd to watch all the girls riding and be told (by some of the parents) that the whole incident was her fault b/c she's little and needs to learn to boss the pony more and 'stick to her guns' more. That is their kindly advice to her. Very helpful advice for a scared little girl. I'm not a happy camper right now, and I have to go back and work the show for the rest of the day.

[Ottakee]

Yes, accidents DO happen (like my yellow jacket experience) but this pony is ear pinny, trying to bite, threatens to kick, etc. That is a not a good lesson pony for a young child (or in my book for any child).

 

Not sure I like the attitude of the other parents/instructors, etc. that this was your daughter's fault, she needs to take charge, etc. She likely doesn't have the riding skills needed to correct/train the pony and she shouldn't have to. Riding a lazy pony that wants to stop or head to the gate and telling the child to take charge is much different than a horse that bucking, has terrible ground manners, etc. (and likely is in pain from what they are being asked to do/saddle fit, etc).

[livingnlearning]

It's ridiculous to blame her, she can't be blamed and to be honest I don't blame the horse either. The horse is just being a horse. The people putting the two together are at fault for making a bad match or at the very least not intervening when it was obvious the mare was going to be full of it. It's as if they made her wear a pair of shoes that were too big for her and then blamed her when she couldn't walk in them!

 

There are things she could learn from the situation but it doesn't sound like she's in a good learning environment for it. Her interest and talent are going to be squished there. It isn't always a bad thing to ride a difficult horse but only when you have techniques to handle it in your tool belt.

 

Agreed-she can learn to "stick to her guns" by making a more level headed more go where she wants it to go, not by bucking out the dang mare. When she's learned and practised she will be more able to handle a hotter horse but she's not ready now.

 

Stick up for her, she doesn't need to be kicked around for this and she needs someone to tell these people she was over-horsed and it wasn't her fault. Her fall was the result of poor choices but not HER poor choices. Say one of those two things to anyone that mentions it and then just end the conversation: "that's all I have to say about it."

 

I do hope you're barn shopping-there must be a better place for her. If you ever read Chronicle of the Horse they can probably recommend someone in your area if you ask on their forums.

[Jackie in NE]

Just home from the horse show to grab gloves. It's hard for Dd to watch all the girls riding and be told (by some of the parents) that the whole incident was her fault b/c she's little and needs to learn to boss the pony more and 'stick to her guns' more. That is their kindly advice to her. Very helpful advice for a scared little girl. I'm not a happy camper right now, and I have to go back and work the show for the rest of the day.

Nope. That horse is a twit. While it is true that a rider needs to learn how to dominate a willful horse, that's something that comes with a lot of experience. It is not appropriate for a young little girl to be put in that position. If they think that horse is fine, then they can just put their kids on it. Stick to YOUR guns. You would never forgive yourself if that horse landed a kick on her.

[LittleIzumi]

Nope. That horse is a twit. While it is true that a rider needs to learn how to dominate a willful horse, that's something that comes with a lot of experience. It is not appropriate for a young little girl to be put in that position. If they think that horse is fine, then they can just put their kids on it. Stick to YOUR guns. You would never forgive yourself if that horse landed a kick on her.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: And if they're not even TEACHING her how to handle the behaviors, just telling her to stick with it on a horse that should not be a beginner's lesson horse AT ALL, I wouldn't stay there, honestly.

[CanaryMelody]

Nope. That horse is a twit. While it is true that a rider needs to learn how to dominate a willful horse, that's something that comes with a lot of experience. It is not appropriate for a young little girl to be put in that position. If they think that horse is fine, then they can just put their kids on it. Stick to YOUR guns. You would never forgive yourself if that horse landed a kick on her.

 

:iagree:

 

Their response was inappropriate and does not address your concerns. I'd be livid. I wouldn't stay at a place that blew me off and blamed my young daughter for the behavior of their bratty horse. I'd be looking for a new place to ride.

 

If there is a 4H group around, they may have leads to other places. Some do not advertise themselves as places to take riding lessons. I grew up learning to ride at a place that did not advertise as well. She got her clients by word of mouth. Our current barn does not. She is a horse trainer first, and a riding instructor second. She's VERY good at both but her advertisements are geared for horse training. :001_smile:

[shanvan]

:iagree:

 

Their response was inappropriate and does not address your concerns. I'd be livid. I wouldn't stay at a place that blew me off and blamed my young daughter for the behavior of their bratty horse. I'd be looking for a new place to ride.

 

If there is a 4H group around, they may have leads to other places. Some do not advertise themselves as places to take riding lessons. I grew up learning to ride at a place that did not advertise as well. She got her clients by word of mouth. Our current barn does not. She is a horse trainer first, and a riding instructor second. She's VERY good at both but her advertisements are geared for horse training. :001_smile:

 

Sad to say, this is a 4H barn. I'm exhausted from the show (where all the parents were required to volunteer), but thanks for all the responses. I am thinking the pony may have some pain issues. And I know it isn't fair to blame Dd. I do know that Dd will not be riding this pony, and yes, I am seriously considering barn shopping--though the thought of trying to find another place makes me cringe. We just did that last year and I was hoping we were done shopping.

[MrsJewelsRae]

D be pretty upset if they put my little girl on a horse like that, and truly pi$$ed if they then tried to brush it off and pressure her to get back on the same horse!! My neighbour in our hs group recently started boarding a horse for her 13 yr old dd to ride. The horse was previously at a riding facility and they failed to mention that horse had a major attitude problem. Her dd was bucked in a bad way and the horse landed on top of her :(, breaking her pelvis in 4 places. She had to start high school this yr using a walker and is in lots of pain sitting thru class. She is expected to make a full recovery and has progressed to using canes, thankfully, it could have been much worse. After a little digging they discovered the previous owner, a very experienced rider, got rid of the horse because she had been bucked off a few times and had a very bad fall the last time in which she broke her jaw and shoulder! The most recent injury to the girl could have been prevented if people had been forthcoming and honest. I would expect a riding facility to own this as the horse's problem and a training/ discipline problem, rather than shamefully passing the blame to a little girl and then not taking the warning and the proper safety precautions- someone is going to get very hurt. At the least I would make my displeasure and concern known to them, and if they still brush you off, I'd find a new place. The other parents would be singing a very different tune if it were their kid, and especially if their child were injured. Stick to your guns on this, glad your dd is ok.