Question about working independently

[boscopup]

I'm posting this for a friend. She is a new homeschooler this year, and her 7 year old (2nd grade) son has had issues with working "independently" on things like math facts practice, etc. I mentioned that many people don't expect independence until 4th grade or so, and she made a good point about children in school (our sons were in the same K and 1st grade classes):

 

When 1st graders entered Mrs. S’s classroom last year they were to put their things away and begin morning work. As a matter of fact, they did in kg also. In a classroom a teacher cannot be sitting beside each student while they perform every pencil stroke. Teachers teach something new then sometimes the class works through assignments together with the teacher. Sometimes the students sit quietly at their desks and do the written practice while the teacher prepares for the next subject, checks her email, supervises a bathroom break watching out the door down the hall…whatever. I see no reason why this has to be different in hs setting. A large percentage of hs work at this age is parent/child interaction dependent. I would not want it any other way. I can see why it is important to watch a child do copy work carefully, etc. That is an advantage of hs setting. If school teachers could have watched every pencil stroke D would not have such poor handwriting. But addition practice with 7s, 8s, 9s and figuring out the pattern…there is no need for new teaching nor watching to make sure the work is carefully done. He should be able to sit, focus, and be on task for 10-15 minutes without me attached to his hip and accomplish a task similar to that.

Now my initial thoughts on this were that the school environment is different... the children have that emotional connection of someone sitting right there via the other children sitting there doing the same work. In a homeschool setting, where this mom is dealing with a 7 year old who is the only student (and a 4 year old who is getting to go play), that same motivation/peer pressure isn't there.

 

So what says the hive? Should a 7 year old boy be expected to be able to sit down with an assignment to complete independently in this manner (ie, he's not teaching himself - the mom has already taught him, and now he is practicing what he has learned)? If not, why not, when they can do it in school? And if they should be expected to be able to do this, how do you get your children to do it?

[GoVanGogh]

I would say that just because a child is expected to do that in a school setting does not mean that it is developmentally appropriate for that age of child. There are a lot of things schools do and expect that I wouldn't - at home - and that is part of the reason we are homeschooling. Working independently at a young age is one of them.

 

I would also add that there are so many distractions at home. Hate to admit that, but it is true. The cats get in a fight. The phone rings. Dad comes home for lunch. The garbage truck is picking up in your neighborhood. Children can grow to work around those distractions, but it is hard for younger children and children new to homeschooling.

 

I think there is this huge push to get children to work independently, when it isn't always ideal or realistic. Maybe for math. But so much is lost in subjects like science and history when the child is working alone. They need to be able to toss around ideas, talk through things and the like. They can do that in a larger classroom, but - at home - they need to do that with siblings and parents.

 

SWB has an awesome audio download on children working independently. :D It saved our homeschooling last year when I was beginning to think my child would never, ever be able to focus for five minutes w/o me at his elbow.

[BlsdMama]

 

So what says the hive? Should a 7 year old boy be expected to be able to sit down with an assignment to complete independently in this manner (ie, he's not teaching himself - the mom has already taught him, and now he is practicing what he has learned)? If not, why not, when they can do it in school? And if they should be expected to be able to do this, how do you get your children to do it?

 

My first question:

Why is she homeschooling? It is relevant because if she took him out of school because he is a wiggly little boy, then lots of self dire tion is unreasonable IMO.

 

I think independence is a GOAL at age seven. I like them to be able to work diligently, with direction at seven. However, my lessons are short. We don't do formal math. I know to alternate periods of being still with lots of physical activity.

 

So, if you're asking me if a seven year old should be able to obey his mama and work on something within his ability for 15-20 minutes, the answer is yes. If you're asking me if a seven year old should be still and able and work diligently for an hour or two to complete his daily work, I do not consider that reasonable or desirable.

 

I think a seven year old should be capable of completing a lesson.

I think a seven year old should be able to be read to and interact (narrations or answer questions) for an hour.

I think he should be able to play quietly, draw, or be still for an hour through a read aloud.

I think it is reasonable for him to work on a craft project with his hands for 30-60 minutes.

I do NOT think it is reasonable to do three subjects of sit down work in a row at seven.

 

HTH!

Edited October 25, 2011 by BlsdMama

[mama25angels]

First of all the example is I suspect the best case scenario on the best day (when the moon, stars, and sun are all in perfect alignment). Seriously, I don't believe it.

 

:iagree: My oldest DS did go to PS for second grade and that was one of the teacher's peeves with him. He could not work without supervision, he accumulated a semester's worth of homework in his desk, because he did not remember to turn it in. We eventually developed a system sending each other "daily" notes with what he'd done and what he needed to do.

[boscopup]

My first question:

Why is she homeschooling? It is relevant because if she took him out of school because he is a wiggly little boy, then lots of self dire tion is unreasonable IMO.

 

No, he was not wiggly during class in school. He was a good student. He did his work as instructed. I believe, from what she's told me, that he has gotten more wiggly at home. He is clearly more distracted.

 

I have experienced some of the same thing, which is why I'd love to see some examples of how exactly you deal with behavior issues - dawdling, dropping the pencil, falling out of the chair, etc.

[Miss Tick]

I wonder what the consequences of not working independently were at school. Perhaps Mom isn't as "scary", and I'm sure she doesn't exert the same peer pressure.;) Plus, in many schools, if you don't finish your work it goes home with you to be homework. This is not to say that the consequences at school were BETTER, just different.

 

It may be that there is more variety going on at home - what is Mom doing? what are siblings doing? what is my favorite toy waiting to do?

[2_girls_mommy]

school environment is different... the children have that emotional connection of someone sitting right there via the other children sitting there doing the same work. In a homeschool setting, where this mom is dealing with a 7 year old who is the only student (and a 4 year old who is getting to go play), that same motivation/peer pressure isn't there.

 

 

This is what I believe. I mean, my 7 yr old sits and does her work for 15-20 min after we go over a lesson together. But I am sitting right there, checking my email, filling out my lesson plans, reading a book next to her. I don't leave the room to do laundry or take a shower or do a phone call and expect that she is going to stay on task for long... nor does the teacher at school. She is in the room at all times to redirect when they start talking or playing or staring out the window. Why would hs be any different??

[Critterfixer]

I have experienced some of the same thing, which is why I'd love to see some examples of how exactly you deal with behavior issues - dawdling, dropping the pencil, falling out of the chair, etc.

I think that question would be subject to the style of discipline by the teacher (parent). I well remember the private school I went to in K where talking to another student without leave was punished by spanking. I don't do that, but I have other ways of teaching the skill of focusing that would probably seem draconian to many, but gets the job done and we are all quite comfortable with it. What I would say is that whatever discipline practice is used, it pays to be consistent and fair. Nobody here likes having the mother with the glass eye and wooden tail one day and mother dance through the daisies and anything goes the next.

 

On the subject of independence of study, I would have the mother decide what level of independence she wants to see, and work to teach the child the skills he needs to get there. Math independence at that age more or less requires that the child know what to do when he gets stuck. He needs to be comfortable enough with a manipulative or a number line to solve for a fact that he needs help on. Independent grammar would require that he have solid independent reading skills, and a list of the rules to apply at hand when he gets stuck. Writing independence would entail a solid command of age-appropriate penmanship and attention to detail for copywork. If you want a child to be independent, you have to make sure he's got the tools to do the work.

[Tmhearn]

I think a 2nd grader should be able to complete a 15 minute assignment independently. With that said, I also think it is a process that requires training. In the same manner that the child is taught to get ready for bed, do chores, etc. I would be teaching them to work independently.

 

I like to alternate independent work with working together, but that is probably a function of having multiple kids. For Math, I teach the lesson and expect my dd to do the assignment independently. She also does ETC independently and Spelling. Of course, it is broken up with me teaching a lesson. I don't expect her to sit for an hour and work by herself.

 

I would say that your friend could motivate her son by giving some sort of "reward" for finishing the work. For example, you can have a 15 minute break to play when you are done. Or we can have a snack as soon as you are done. Conversely, a natural consequence might be in order. If the assignment should reasonably take 15 minutes, she could say that any time over that will cut into his tv, video game time, etc.

 

Hth

[black_midori]

I find that when I ask my 7yo to work independently on math (while I am close but not actively watching) it can go one of several ways depending on the day.

1) He sits for 15 minutes and gets 1 or 2 problems done.

2) He rushes to get it done before 15 minutes is up and gets problems incorrect that he genuinely knows how to do.

3) He sits for a reasonable time frame and does all the work expected with 100% accuracy (or close to it).

 

ARGH!!! So, where do you go from there? I've found that if I catch him on the right day (with a good can-do attitude) and/or if I offer the right incentive (if you get 100% right & all done before the buzzer, you get xyz!), things can work out well. I am not interested in giving prizes all the time, though (and we already don't allow tv/comp/general playtime unless work is done & done right)!

 

I'm actually leaning towards starting ALEKS next school year in an attempt to allow him to bypass areas that he really DOESN'T need drill & kill in while not dropping areas that he really DOES. Also, the program would then check for accuracy and immediately update what he still needs work on & send me reports about it - no progressing forward without demonstrating mastery, AND mom doesn't get to be the bad guy!! woohoo!

 

I want to add another issue with independent work - they may be sitting still & calmly doing the work, but does that mean they are getting it RIGHT? From a ps perspective - yes, they may be better at sitting down and doing the work (peer pressure, fewer distractions, constant reminders from someone with fewer distractions!). There is generally no way, however, the teacher is able to immediately see where each individual student needs help & be able to fix any upcoming issues right away. They get the work handed in, check it, give it back (days or more), POSSIBLY ask for revisions, POSSIBLY check those revisions as well, and maybe (if you are lucky) enough students will have the same issue & you can re-teach for that specific issue. In a hs setting, I would expect the child to do the work & I would check it right away - if they have problems, I would require revisions and discussion on each problem until understanding is obtained... and if the issue was big enough, I would immediately re-teach the necessary pieces. Therefore, I might as well be right in there with him! In fact, I try to stay at or near the table as he does the work and do a sideways glance over at the page to review what is already done as he goes - saves time!

[boscopup]

Thanks, everyone! My friend is expecting her son to work while she is still in the room. She might be washing dishes while he sits at the bar in the kitchen (so they're facing each other and separated by the sink and the bar top), or she might be washing her hair in the kitchen sink while he sits at the kitchen table. Or she'd like to work with her younger son some.

 

I think part of the issue may also be that she's still finding where her child is, especially in math. Her son and my son have always been two peas in a pod, and the math skills have been part of that. He just came out of Saxon 1 at school and is now in MM2. Some things he sort of figured out already, and some things he hasn't seen yet. I well remember being in this spot last year. We have finally settled into a good spot in math THIS year. So it may just take some time to find that spot for her son. She mentioned that the things she's assigned are "easy", and that may be part of the problem. Of course, he's still working on memorizing facts, and I think that's what she has him working on. I suggested some timed drills (I know Bill would disapprove :lol:), as that's what the child is used to from Saxon, and racing the timer makes "easy" problems like this go better. I know my son has done best working on multiplication facts via 5 minute drills I printed off the internet. He asks for them!!!! And they have definitely helped his facts, because the ones he didn't know right off the bat, we go over and over and over while correcting the page (I put a checkmark on each right answer, then I ask him each wrong answer, so after skipping 3x6 and 3x8 one day on the 3s page, he knew those two facts backward and forward by the time I was done correcting the page :D). I'm also using a timer in our regular math time. I assign an amount that I know he can do in 30 minutes, and I told him he'll work for 30 minutes. Whatever isn't done, he does for homework (because I know the material won't take longer than 30 minutes). So far, he hasn't needed homework. We've only done this two days though. :tongue_smilie: The idea of homework did surprise him, so I think he realized I was being quite serious!

[Mjfb]

I, too, think the example is flawed.

 

I was a good student in elementary. Why? Because the work was ridiculously easy. The kids who struggled were all over the place with concentration, though.

 

In our homeschool, my kids are always challenged. We rarely do easy busywork. I can't hand them something and tell them to just do it because usually the work is something new, and they need a bit of hand holding to feel confident.

 

Now, give my kids a maze, word search, color and cut for dd, logic puzzle for ds... and they are quiet as mice....

 

...that is.. until they want to share what they've done.

 

So yes, I remember sitting quietly in 2nd grade, pulling out a book when my work was done, waiting for the teacher. But I was also the kid who would cry if my name was on the board (I think I was awed by the entire experience). I don't expect or want that from my own kids.

[2_girls_mommy]

I agree, washing my hair or dishes in front of my child while she is trying to do math when she would much rather be doing anything but :) is just too distracting! Mine would sit and watch me, as would I if I were sitting in a quiet room and someone was busily moving around.

 

I think you have to sit quietly near them at this age. If she is comparing it to a teacher in a classroom, remind her that the teacher is not washing dishes or her hair. She is working quietly on something school related near them. I do the same. Housework can get done in spurts here and there between subjects or after school altogether.

[Diana B]

No, he was not wiggly during class in school. He was a good student. He did his work as instructed. I believe, from what she's told me, that he has gotten more wiggly at home. He is clearly more distracted.

 

I have experienced some of the same thing, which is why I'd love to see some examples of how exactly you deal with behavior issues - dawdling, dropping the pencil, falling out of the chair, etc.

 

I haven't read through all the responses yet, so pardon me if I am repeating. But I've noticed something the last few weeks with 8 yr old, that might partially answer the 'why' as to him being more wiggly at home.

 

My son is participating in children's choir at church. I've noticed that when he's practicing, if I'm standing where he can see me - he keeps making eye contact with me and smiling instead of paying attention to the choir director. That momma love can be quite distracting. :lol: Maybe her son is just excited about being at home and wanting to spend time with his mom, that it is hard to sit still when she's not right there?

 

As for dealing the behaviors:

~Short lessons & breaks will help.

~Letting the natural consequence of not finishing in time sink in. "You won't have time to play before dinner if you don't finish your math in time. I'm going to go fold laundry now." Then leave. Don't keep pestering them if they don't seem to be going 'fast enough'. (If other subjects are waiting on the independent subject, let the child know that how long he takes will affect when all the rest finish up and you won't shorten the day just because he took a long time in one subject.) - Then praise them when they do it in a timely manner!

~Timers! My son loves to race the clock, especially in math. But other subjects can be helped by saying "We are going to work on XYZ for 15 minutes. I'll set the timer so we know when to stop."

 

I completely agree that most subjects should be done with mom at this age. Math practice pages/worksheets should be able to be done independently, but they shouldn't be more than 5-10 minutes. Anything more than that, and the child isn't going to be learning anything new ~ or at least not how to do it correctly!

[boscopup]

My son is participating in children's choir at church. I've noticed that when he's practicing, if I'm standing where he can see me - he keeps making eye contact with me and smiling instead of paying attention to the choir director. That momma love can be quite distracting. :lol: Maybe her son is just excited about being at home and wanting to spend time with his mom, that it is hard to sit still when she's not right there?

 

This may be part of her issue. Her son (who is about to turn 8) is in a phase where he is wanting to be with mom a lot, and she's also having trouble if she sits there with him - he gets into baby mode and is wanting to hang on her and love on her. So she's having issues either way. :lol: I do think things will get better for her when they get their groove. They've only been homeschooling for less than 3 months, and from what she's told me, I think they are progressing very well. :)

[Ellie]

No, he was not wiggly during class in school. He was a good student. He did his work as instructed. I believe, from what she's told me, that he has gotten more wiggly at home. He is clearly more distracted.

 

I have experienced some of the same thing, which is why I'd love to see some examples of how exactly you deal with behavior issues - dawdling, dropping the pencil, falling out of the chair, etc.

It's going to take a long time to undo the damage that the school did. She might not realize there was damage, but there was. Poor little guy...he was stifled in that classroom, away from his home and his mother; now he gets to be home, with his mother, and she's making him sit and Do School. How sad. :sad:

 

With a little 7yo child who is homeschooled for the first time, *I* would probably not have anything that required him to sit and do seatwork independently. I'd be doing KONOS, or Charlotte Mason, or almost anything that engaged him and allowed him to find himself--and me--again. When he's 15, he'll work independently. :-)

[boscopup]

My friend wanted me to post a thank you for her:

 

Please pass my thanks to everyone who took the time to post on WTM Forum! Between those responses, Charlotte Mason reading, SWB lectures, and my own realizations, I have a lot to try to help improve our situation!

Two things I have also realized in the past couple of days in relation to focus issues.Maybe these would actually be helpful to someone on WTM.

First, I am realizing that the focus problem getting worse and worse at home is partially due to less physical activity than he was getting in school. Think about how classroom teachers have a hard day when it is cold and rainy and the kids can’t get out to recess. They get wilder and the teachers have a harder time teaching. This held true for D___ in kg and 1st grade. He has voiced that the only thing he misses from school is P.E. Between that and recess times he got a lot of running around and getting energy out with other children. He would come home after having been on the playground and sit and do his homework independently while I did the dishes or whatever. It did not matter if I was in the room or not he would get his work done accurately and quicklywith no baby talk or whining. So, I’m going to have to get in more physical activity….somehow….and we’ll see if that makes a difference. I think Santa needs to bring a basketball goal, trampoline, soccer goals, larger swing set, jungle gym, and anything other playground equipment he can cram into his bag! : ) He does NOT need to bring a Nintendo DS for sure!

Second, from observation, I think some of the nervous wiggles also have to do with not having other kids to interact with and share all that is going through his very active mind. We have had a high school student coming back and forth after school for the past week helping clean windows. The boys have talked her ears off about everything. They have me to share with, but it is not the same. Therefore, at least for D___, I think there is value in social interaction when it comes to focus issues also. It just seems like there are all of these bottled up ideas, creative play, etc. for which he is needing an outlet. Maybe I just need to learn to be a better “kid†myself.

While it is certain that there are things we can do to improve as far as my being at his side and patiently training his attention span, avoiding scheduling like subjects back to back, adding in more manipulatives, inspiring learning, etc., I think we could do all this perfectly and still really continue to struggle if we do not get SUFFICIENT physical activity and have regular play dates with other kids. Mother taking valium to get better sleep and doing things to help the RA in order to facilitate abetter schedule is a must also.: )

[NittanyJen]

The kids are not working independently at school.

 

The teacher is still at the front of the room, supervising them, issuing reminders about not talking, sitting still, eyes on paper, doing your work, or she is walking around the room answering questions, giving hints, refocusing little eyeballs.

 

Many classrooms also have an aide, parent volunteer, or student teacher helping out while the teacher works with a small group.

[boscopup]

Many classrooms also have an aide, parent volunteer, or student teacher helping out while the teacher works with a small group.

 

There usually was NOT any aide, parent, or student teacher in this child's classroom (my son was also in the class). It's a small, private school. There were about 17 kids in the class (only 3 of those girls!), and the school could not afford to have anyone else in there. Parents sometimes helped out, but not everyday. In KG, a parent would come in once a week for helping with testing (sight words and such). I don't think parents were in the first grade class that often.

[Critterfixer]

The boys have talked her ears off about everything. They have me to share with, but it is not the same. Therefore, at least for D___, I think there is value in social interaction when it comes to focus issues also. It just seems like there are all of these bottled up ideas, creative play, etc. for which he is needing an outlet. Maybe I just need to learn to be a better “kid†myself.

 

This strikes a chord with me, because I notice that both of my sons are the same way whenever they have someone (an adult) to talk to besides myself. I am not naturally very expressive (darned Aspergers!) and often I have to remind them not to talk so loudly to me because it actually hurts.

Thank goodness they have each other, because Mom was never a kid as a child, and playing with others was never something I could do then, and can hardly do now.

I've not wanted to have them in outside activities for the selfish reason that I can't stand it. I think I'll just get myself some earplugs and do it. Did she mention any outlets she had in mind for social interaction? I'm thinking about looking into karate for the boys, and AWANA (although I am going to find both those activities very stressful with the noise levels).

[zenjenn]

Both of my kids, age 6 and 9, work independently much of the day.

 

My 6 yr old I suspect is a bit abnormal. She's been homeschooled since Day 1, AND is very accelerated. When we first started with K did not work independently AT ALL, and it kind of drove me nuts. But, I walked her through it and fortunately she became literate and fluent in math and writing within a few months and by the end of the year she worked as independently as her sister.

 

That said, my oldest went to school for 1.5 years and she learned some bad habits - some of which I just haven't been able to undo and it is what it is. (I've chosen which bad habits to just "let go" because they aren't worth the battle, like her writing letters bottom to top.)

 

So when I think of working independently at home, there is definite instruction going on, but as soon as they can do it independently, I let them do it independently. I actually kind of think it works as an incentive. Following directions and competence leads to me getting out of their hair. It is a win-win.

 

So, for example, I will sit, watch, correct copywork and penmanship lessons until I see the student consistently (over weeks) forming letters correctly, and then I leave them to do it themselves. If things start to get sloppy and errors appear, I'm back to hovering.

 

Lesson - if you don't want mom to hover, do it right! :D

[zenjenn]

Funny anecdote, btw. My mom worked as a public school teacher for nearly 20 years.

 

I am having minor surgery in a couple weeks, and my mom is flying in a few days early for Thanksgiving so she can be here to watch the kids while I have surgery done. I was telling them she could monitor their schoolwork...

 

"That will be fun," she said. "I can run their 'class' the same way I ran class when I was a teacher!"

 

My kids will find that SO FLIPPIN' ANNOYING! :lol: We do not "play school" during our school time. They get as much instruction as they need, and then they are given freedom to learn. I weed out some of the more trivial school-like tasks that might come up in our materials, and replace them with work of substance.

[Penelope]

This is what I believe. I mean, my 7 yr old sits and does her work for 15-20 min after we go over a lesson together. But I am sitting right there, checking my email, filling out my lesson plans, reading a book next to her. I don't leave the room to do laundry or take a shower or do a phone call and expect that she is going to stay on task for long... nor does the teacher at school. She is in the room at all times to redirect when they start talking or playing or staring out the window. Why would hs be any different??

 

:iagree:

[NittanyJen]

There usually was NOT any aide, parent, or student teacher in this child's classroom (my son was also in the class). It's a small, private school. There were about 17 kids in the class (only 3 of those girls!), and the school could not afford to have anyone else in there. Parents sometimes helped out, but not everyday. In KG, a parent would come in once a week for helping with testing (sight words and such). I don't think parents were in the first grade class that often.

 

In both of the PS's my kids attended, there were up to two aides per classroom. Of course there were as many as 33 kids in a 2nd grade classroom! (Amazingly, this was actually an excellent school, phenomenal teacher. I cannot give her enough praise for the outstanding job she did ;) ).