Truscifi Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Do angels have free will? I was taught growing up that free will is god's gift to man. But if angels don't have free will, how was Lucifer able to rebel? For background, my mom is not a fan of organized religion, though she self identifies as Christian. Therefore my extremely conservative fundamentalist Pentacostal relatives decided to educate me when I came to visit for a few weeks every summer. Needless to say, there were some holes, which I have tried to fill over the years to try to make sense of Christianity. Also, some appear to be offended by me not capitalizing god. I was taught that we can't know god's name, god is just a word we use to describe the concept of something so beyond us as to be literally unfathomable, therefore it is not a proper name. It is one of the few things I actually agreed with, and it has for the most part stuck. I mean no offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I suppose the answers will differ according to various denominations. My own belief is that yes, they do. I am LDS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I'm also LDS, and yes, angles/spirits have agency to choose. they choose to obey (or not) God because they want to. Just like we choose to obey God (or not) because we want to. We have choices but we do NOT choose consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Do angels have free will? I was taught growing up that free will is god's gift to man. But if angels don't have free will, how was Lucifer able to rebel? According to Catholic belief, angels do have free will, but it doesn't work the same way as with humans. Some time after they were created, the angels were given a test as to whether to obey or disobey God. Since angels are pure spirit and have crystal clear intellects (no grey areas, no moments of weakness), they could only go 100% one way or the other, and their choice was complete, final, and unchanging. The ones that were faithful to God were admitted to His presence, and will always be in His grace. The ones that chose to disobey God will always be separated from Him. This is based on what I remember from my children's religion textbook. Hope it makes sense. I need to get to sleep. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I don't believe that "free will" is correct. I believe that we have will, within the will that God allows us to have. For example, you may tell your child they can have something... but it's within the choices that you allow. (You're bigger) Very simplified response, I know. So, I believe that at least when he chose, he had a will to do what God allowed him to do... which has somewhat the same end result... but is different enough to mention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3peasinWa Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I have pretty much the same belief as Eleanor. For a time , angels had complete free will & after the split (satan & followers, & those who followed God), then God "actualized them" in their belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 According to Catholic belief, angels do have free will, but it doesn't work the same way as with humans. Some time after they were created, the angels were given a test as to whether to obey or disobey God. Since angels are pure spirit and have crystal clear intellects (no grey areas, no moments of weakness), they could only go 100% one way or the other, and their choice was complete, final, and unchanging. The ones that were faithful to God were admitted to His presence, and will always be in His grace. The ones that chose to disobey God will always be separated from Him. This is based on what I remember from my children's religion textbook. Hope it makes sense. I need to get to sleep. :) I'm not Catholic, but this is what I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 How could a perfect creator keep making imperfect creations? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 ...but if we were perfect, what work would there be for us to do? I love this answer BTW :001_smile: I know I get more satisfaction from accomplishments I participate in - I learn more, and I value the results more... even if my contributions are, when weighed out, token, the effort I put in is part of the process... it gives me the opportunity to strive, to grow, to *reach* for a more perfect self, a more perfect world. ...to be Hashem's partner in creation. Am I needed? Could it all be done without me? Oh, my, yes... but the opportunity to strive, the very obstacles I struggle with are gifts, gifts of pure love. I like this too actually. For me this partnership is purely figurative, but yes striving (imperfectly) towards being a more perfect self, helping small ways to help make a more perfect world, and generally being part of tikun olam is an essential part of my reason for being. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted September 12, 2011 Author Share Posted September 12, 2011 So apparently my aunt's little church was different from most other denominations in many more ways than I realized. Thanks for the input. Are you looking for just Xtian opinions? If so, ignore me, and I will go quietly away... but as I am sitting here unwinding and your question caught my eye: According to traditional Judaism, No. Melachim are extensions of Hashem's ratzon (G-d's will). One could almost say they *are* their tasks, so to speak. ...but then we don't have a Lucifer either. (And if you encounter the word 'satan' in a Jewish context it really doesn't mean the same thing as in a Xtian context. At. All. By us, there is no outside tempter trying to get us to transgress. It isn't theologically possible. I think the Xtian answers so far have been more in accord than I have ever seen before, which fascinates me.... I had assumed there was more of a range of opinions. (Which shows how little I know!) Not just looking for Christian opinions. There is no angelic rebellion in Judaism? What does 'satan' mean in the context of Judaism then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 How could a perfect creator keep making imperfect creations? Bill Sometimes my Sims throw a fit and refuse to do what I say. My children even more so. Sometimes I *knowingly* make bad choices. That's the thing about free will. You have to *choose* the right thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 How could a perfect creator keep making imperfect creations? Bill To me Free Will is our greatest gift from God. If he made us all perfect where would Free Will come in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgiana Daniels Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Correct. trying to be brief, without being hideously inaccurate... 'satan' isn't a proper name, it means.. oh, opposition, difficulty, challenge. (and, by us, it is pronounced Sah-tan (w/ an 'ah' as in Father for both syllables), not say-tan (w/ the 1st syllable like the word 'say' & the 2nd syllable pronounced like the color tan) When prefixed with 'the' ie "hasatan" ...the opposer, the challenger, the accuser. Sometimes, in metaphoric language, the prosecuting angel - when we use images of courts of judgment. Sometimes viewed as a malach (angel - by definition an extension of G-d's will) ensuring that there are challenges for us to overcome - without challenges, utilizing our bechira, our free will, is harder... without obstacles and temptations (all intended to help us grow stronger, to be better, not, chas v'shalom (G-d forbid) to get us off track!) choosing G-d, being our best selves would be easy rather than an exercise of will. I'm not expressing this well, I'm sorry! Sometimes it is used more metaphorically - to represent the internal struggles we each have, our temptations, our urge to yield to what is easy and pleasant in the moment rather than to do what is right. There are some very metaphoric folk tales out there, but they aren't intended literally at all! This is incomplete, but we are heading out the door... HTH, Eliana Very interesting! I had NO idea. Thanks for sharing :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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