s/o: Grade levels and self-identity. (Long!)

[Rivka]

I've found the grade levels discussion very interesting. I can see both points of view, and I definitely understand the strong sentiments and hurt feelings on this issue.

 

I was accelerated as a kid. I have a late October birthday and I skipped kindergarten, so I began first grade two months shy of my fifth birthday. I was accelerated an additional year in language arts starting in first grade, and an additional year in math and science starting in seventh (the standard honors track in my school system). I could've handled much more acceleration in language arts and social studies, if it had been available - I still spent much of my time bored. I enrolled in an extremely rigorous liberal arts college at age 16 and thrived there.

 

Being so very much younger than others in my class, and still usually very much the most capable, wound up making "smart" the foundation of my identity. I was always a curiosity; people would question me and watch me and make judgments about me. I was constantly reminded that I was far ahead of my age peers. I was sometimes made into a "pet" by older kids and adults. I wasn't ever normal.

 

I loved being "the smart one," but in retrospect I think it was really unfortunate that it became so much the core of my self identity. I think it left me with some unhealthy attitudes about what intelligence is and how much it's worth, and who I was in relation to other people.

 

I've thought of homeschooling as a way to partially shelter my daughter from that kind of identity. At home we can accelerate as much as we like without the contrast with age peers being very noticeable. We don't do academic co-ops. We don't tend to discuss the grade level of her work with her, and I'm trying to use ungraded materials as much as possible. It seems to me that with homeschooling we can offer her challenging, appropriate work without the constant drumbeat of YOU ARE UNUSUALLY SMART.

 

I realize that innocence about typical grade abilities can't last forever, but at age 6 my daughter does seem to feel very normal. And that's a gift I wish I'd had.

 

Do you see any harm coming from the label of giftedness? Do you relish comparisons with your child's age peers, or avoid them, or accept them as unavoidable? I'd really be interested in others' thoughts.

[Runningmom80]

I think there is a fine line we have to walk, between acknowledging that yes, our kids are different, and it's nothing to be ashamed of and making them into a sideshow. We generally operate that it's a non-issue and not anything that most people need to be made aware of, but if someone starts asking questions, we will not down play it at all, just be as concise and honest as possible.

 

 

I don't know if this is right or not, but it seems to be the consensus from all the gifted books I have read, and it feels right. I'm still waiting patiently for the manual this kid was supposed to come with.

[Mandy in TN]

We generally operate that it's a non-issue and not anything that most people need to be made aware of, but if someone starts asking questions, we will not down play it at all, just be as concise and honest as possible.

:iagree:

 

 

I'm still waiting patiently for the manual this kid was supposed to come with.

I like it.

 

Gifted is just a word- neither good nor bad. It is what it is. So, you say you have a big brain. What are you going to do with it? Only time will tell.

 

I am needing to run out the door, but in short I am much more interested in habit training diligence that praising intelligence. For me it comes back to my family's educational philosophy.

 

From an old blog post of mine:

 

"I am, I can, I ought, I will." is the place from which I instruct, because we achieve through diligence not through intelligence or imagination. I use habit training as a road to success, but I exercise this alongside the idea that “perhaps the business of teachers is to open as many doors as possible.”

 

Gotta love Charlotte Mason.

Mandy

[SKL]

I have two kids who are close in age with very different abilities, so in front of my kids, I am pretty careful what I say. I tell them both when they impress me on a particular task, but I don't ever talk about them being smarter or advanced compared to someone else. Of course, they do notice the differences, but they aren't hearing them (or any value judgment about them) from me. (Recently I've heard dd2 comment "I'm smarter'n you," but dd1 is OK with that as she'll come back with "I'm stronger'n you" and all is good.)

 

Like you, I was accelerated in school; I too was the youngest and highest achiever in my class; I too started college at 16. Was I "normal"? That depends on how you define "normal." I was normal for "me." I was an introvert; the only kid in the class with (a) glasses, (b) 5 siblings, © a working mom, (d) an illiterate dad, and probably other stuff. I was a tomboy, wore Salvation Army castoffs, and walked in the shadow of my oddball older brother (who would have been diagnosed with Aspergers if we were kids today). All of these would have been true no matter what grade I was in. I was never in the popular crowd, but I don't attribute that to the fact that I was accelerated. I was never unhappy with my grade placement. (I didn't know I was the youngest until I was in 7th grade.) Furthermore, who can say that I wouldn't have felt even less "normal" were I the oldest in the class instead of the youngest?

 

My current dilemma is with my 4yo daughter, who honestly is a misfit in pre-K. She's both intelligent and mature for her age, and she's bigger than some of the KG kids. She used to be one of the youngest in her class, and she was a leader and high performer in every respect. Because they have put all the older kids in KG (even those with fall birthdays), now she's the oldest in pre-K. Every time she mentions something a kid at school did (in a good way), if I ask her what grade that child is in, it's always KG or older. Always. She used to like school, now she dislikes it. She has nothing good to say about it at all. It's not appropriate for her socially.

 

This isn't about me patting myself on the back for having a smart kid. I truly believe my kid is spending hours every day in the wrong place, and I fear it will have negative effects. Already she acts like she has some kind of crazy energy that she needs to unload at the end of the school day - and she's never been like that before. It's not about having to sit still, either - she has always preferred to sit and read or write versus run and play. She's just not happy, not comfortable. I don't see that fixing itself, and the gifted program offered beginning in 3rd grade is too far off.

 

I agree that focusing on "smart" all day long is not the right approach. But I don't think that accelerating a child into a more appropriate classroom equals teaching the child to focus on "smart" all day. The more the placement fits the child, the less reason there would be for anyone to focus on exceptionality.

 

I would not push for acceleration without the social and emotional aspects being considered. Just because my kid could probably hold her own in 1st or 2nd grade, I am not pushing for that. But I cannot agree that just because she's a little younger, she's automatically not going to be able to fit in. People who work with her all day say she is ready for KG in every way.

 

Another point. Redshirting is the exact opposite of this issue, and yet it's generally accepted if not encouraged. The fact that a boy is going to be the oldest in his class is considered a good thing. So why should it be considered such an awful thing for a girl to be the youngest in her class? What is the difference? Either way, the child is an outlier. Being oldest may be great for some individuals, but likewise being youngest might be best for others.

 

My mom quit school on her 16th birthday because she felt so much older than her classmates - and she had a May birthday. I am pretty sure I would have been tempted to follow in her footsteps, had I not already been in my senior year on my 16th birthday. So I just don't buy the "gift of time" arguments, at least not across the board.

[catz]

Rivka - I love your post and this is another big piece of homeschooling for us. My oldest can do algebra, write computer programs, do a research paper. And at the end of the day cuddle with me and play Webkinz with his sister and be silly at the playground. I really don't want to rush through my kid's childhoods unless they want to rush through them. Gifted is a piece of each of my kids, and I'm happy to talk about it if it comes up. But it isn't who they are and doesn't define them as people. My son might say, "yep, I'm good at math. Let's play pokemon". We talk about how different people have different strengths. It's very much an aside around here. Where I think if we were trying to navigate a school (virtual or brick and mortar), it would need to become a much bigger deal.

 

I think there can be a danger any time a child is pigeon holed, whether that's a "favorable" pigeon hole or not. I was in one kind of pigeon hole through elementary school (small private school, had no GT options at all). It was never a good feeling. I think kids should have opportunties to re-invent themselves if they want to.

[boscopup]

Another point. Redshirting is the exact opposite of this issue, and yet it's generally accepted if not encouraged. The fact that a boy is going to be the oldest in his class is considered a good thing. So why should it be considered such an awful thing for a girl to be the youngest in her class? What is the difference? Either way, the child is an outlier. Being oldest may be great for some individuals, but likewise being youngest might be best for others.

 

Around here, I've seen several boys "redshirted" just because they had summer birthdays, NOT because they actually needed another year to mature. I've seen boys who were actually quite mature for their age still be redshirted, and it made me go :confused:. It was actually a problem for my son because his class was mostly boys (they had 3 girls and 14 boys in first grade!), and several of the boys were way more mature than the boys that were supposed to be in that grade. So my non-redshirted boy was in a bad position socially before you even throw in the geek equation (and really, he is a geek... I say that with love, since both his parents are geeks :tongue_smilie:).

 

I agree that a child close to the cutoff who is clearly meeting the entrance requirements should be able to go ahead and start. They could have a test for entrance. How hard is that?

[Jenny in Florida]

Do you see any harm coming from the label of giftedness? Do you relish comparisons with your child's age peers, or avoid them, or accept them as unavoidable? I'd really be interested in others' thoughts.

 

We accept the comparisons as unavoidable, but never initiate them.

 

For us, though, having a label, an explanation of why our kids are the way they are, has meant more than I'll be able to express in this post.

 

Both of our kids have been aware from the time they were teeny that they were "different." For some time, my daughter thought there must be something terribly wrong with her, because she couldn't relate well to her peers. She longed for real, deep friendships and meaningful conversations and couldn't understand why other kids didn't want to interact with her. She was lonely and sad and hopeless.

 

She was five.

 

I had conversation after conversation with her about how to be a good friend, how to get along with other kids, etc. And she tried so hard. Finally, one day, she was crying again over her disappointment with a recent playdate and cried that she just wanted to be a normal kid like everyone else.

 

That's when I told her it wasn't going to happen. I explained a little bit about intelligence and shared some of my own story. And it was like a weight had been lifted off her shoulders.

 

I had a nearly identical conversation with my son, except that he was a little older and carried the second child feeling of not being smart like his big sister. So, there was a little more work to do to convince him. But the reaction was nearly the same.

 

Mine are not kids who are ever going to fit in with their age peers. Even in non-academic settings, they are so different that it is obvious to them and everyone else. Rather than having them endure a childhood full of being told how weird they are and not understanding the why of it, we gave them the label "gifted."

 

My parents attempted to downplay my intelligence. And it was a disaster. I have spent a lifetime trying to come to grips with my gifts and to overcome a serious imposter complex that has made it difficult for me to do much of anything that involves a risk.

 

I won't make the same mistakes with my kids. I'm sure I'll make others, but as least I'll have the comfort of knowing I was thoughtful about it and did my absolute best, rather than going with the flow and trying not to make waves.

 

I should add, maybe, that "smart" is only a tiny percentage of my kids' self-identity. We acknowledge their gifts, accept them and then expect them to get on with actually doing something. I tell them they can't take any more credit for their intelligence than they can for their eye color. What matters is what they do with their gifts, what kind of people they become. For my daughter, the most important thing about her is that she is a theatre geek. My son proudly describes himself as "weird," but doesn't mention being smart. I don't think they go around worrying about showing off their IQs any more than they would tell everyone their shoe sizes.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Jenny in Florida

[regentrude]

Both of our kids have been aware from the time they were teeny that they were "different." For some time, my daughter thought there must be something terribly wrong with her, because she couldn't relate well to her peers. She longed for real, deep friendships and meaningful conversations and couldn't understand why other kids didn't want to interact with her. She was lonely and sad and hopeless.

She was five.

I had conversation after conversation with her about how to be a good friend, how to get along with other kids, etc. And she tried so hard. Finally, one day, she was crying again over her disappointment with a recent playdate and cried that she just wanted to be a normal kid like everyone else.

 

That's when I told her it wasn't going to happen. I explained a little bit about intelligence and shared some of my own story. And it was like a weight had been lifted off her shoulders.

 

I could have written exactly the same thing about my daughter! She was miserable, lonely. For a while, when she was five and six, she thought that was because we are not Americans and stopped speaking German, her native and first language, completely - since she thought maybe THAT was what set her apart.

It was when we discussed the results of her IQ test that she realized it had nothing to do with her ethnicity.

Believe me, she tried extremely hard to find friends. She was bullied in school. She finally found one friend in 5th grade.

 

Mine are not kids who are ever going to fit in with their age peers. Even in non-academic settings, they are so different that it is obvious to them and everyone else. Rather than having them endure a childhood full of being told how weird they are and not understanding the why of it, we gave them the label "gifted."

We are lucky in that DD found a non-academic environment that is accepting of her (she still has the label of the nerdy one, but in a loving way). Part of why that works well is that her friends at the stable are all older - college students, even a graduate student. Except for her one friend, that is the environment where she thrives, has friends.

 

She does not define herself through being smart - but it is such an intrinsic part of her personality that it renders her incompatible with most of her same age peers. Her interest in math and theoretical physics is seen as weird and a reason to bully, especially since the prevailing culture among girls is to be proud to be bad at math etc. Unfortunately, we have not found any like minded homeschoolers - being surrounded either by families whose religious convictions we do not share or by unschoolers.. we have stopped attending coop, she has stopped coming to playgroup, because nobody can relate her to.

So , hanging out with engineering students at the barn is her refuge.

Edited September 7, 2011 by regentrude

[FairProspects]

Around here, I've seen several boys "redshirted" just because they had summer birthdays, NOT because they actually needed another year to mature. I've seen boys who were actually quite mature for their age still be redshirted, and it made me go :confused:. It was actually a problem for my son because his class was mostly boys (they had 3 girls and 14 boys in first grade!), and several of the boys were way more mature than the boys that were supposed to be in that grade. So my non-redshirted boy was in a bad position socially before you even throw in the geek equation (and really, he is a geek... I say that with love, since both his parents are geeks :tongue_smilie:).

 

I agree that a child close to the cutoff who is clearly meeting the entrance requirements should be able to go ahead and start. They could have a test for entrance. How hard is that?

 

 

First of all, I am so jealous of your class sizes! That is close to the size of half a class here.

 

Second, what would they test for entrance? Academic readiness, ability to sit still, emotional maturity? I think "ready" can be an arbitrary term anyway which is probably why age is frequently used. Dh as an adult can't sit still at work so if we use that as a gauge, he would never have started school :lol:.

 

Third, red-shirting is about so many things, not least of which here actually is sports. People want their kid to be the biggest for football or whatever. Arguably not the best measure, but a definite reality here and one that has to be considered if your son ever wants to play in the future. (And yes, I've already been told my kids will not play varsity since they aren't on a coached team now. At 4. I only wish I was kidding.)

[boscopup]

First of all, I am so jealous of your class sizes! That is close to the size of half a class here.

 

This was a private school! I think the class sizes in public school are bigger. ;)

 

Second, what would they test for entrance? Academic readiness, ability to sit still, emotional maturity? I think "ready" can be an arbitrary term anyway which is probably why age is frequently used. Dh as an adult can't sit still at work so if we use that as a gauge, he would never have started school :lol:.

Well, if a parent is trying to get their child into K early, I'd think they'd need some academic readiness. I don't know about maturity... I mean, if it's up to the parents to decide to redshirt for maturity reasons, why not leave it up to them to decide to accelerate for maturity reasons? I think a decent K teacher could probably observe a child and determine if they're ready or not.

 

Some private schools test for K readiness if parents want to send their 4 year old a bit early. I don't see why public schools can't do the same thing.

 

Third, red-shirting is about so many things, not least of which here actually is sports.

Yes, and I think that's sad. In the case of the kids in my DS's class, I don't think it was sports. Many just say "It's best for boys to wait a year," even though their boy actually would be just fine in the K class at age 5. I fully understand redshirting a boy that's ultra wiggly, immature, or just plain not ready for formal school work. If DS2 had been born before Sept. 1, I'd totally be redshirting him! He's a November baby. He's NOT ready for K yet. Academically, he is, but he's definitely still too wiggly, immature, etc. to sit down and do school work for more than 5-10 minutes a day. DS1, OTOH, was completely ready at 5, even though he had a late June birthday. He wasn't the youngest boy in class. There were a few July/August birthdays there that had not redshirted. They all did fine.

[catz]

I absolutely think kids should be told about their giftedness and be given tools to cope. I was never IDed gifted, was young and small for grade, and grew up just thinking I was a freak of nature. I was on guard what would come out of my mouth constantly. I honestly never thought of myself as gifted (or knew anything about it really) until my oldest hit the ceiling of a screening test in school. and I started doing some reading. That was a huge moment of understanding and relief about my own childhood. My parents always just told me to buck up and fit in. And I couldn't. I was an honors student in high school and college and both were a breeze, but I just thought no one else was trying. I have degrees in math and comp sci, and let me tell you, being a young woman in those fields at a highly rated tech university was LONELY! :D It was definitely not a good thing to not know. I think it would have been a huge relief to understand this at a much earlier age. Like when I was having angst at preschool about fitting in!

 

I think as a homeschooling family that has found good academic fit and good peers close to age level, it's easier to downplay these issues. My kids know they learn differently and homeschool accommodates that. . I think it's much harder for the parent of a HG-PG child to navigate the school system. My son cried and had stomach aches almost daily his 2 years of PS.

 

I think the red shirting issue is a hard one. Outliers is an interesting book that talks a bit about this. My son went to K. There was a boy in his class with an Aug 30 birthday. Youngest in class. Bright kid, early reader, involved parents probably MG. Our K was all day and had very high behavoiral demands and it was a class of 14 boys and 10 girls. This boy took multiple trips down the principals office every week for what amounts to being a 5 year old boy IMHO. This child is now a 5th grader and seems locked into a pattern of being a behavioral problem. Would this child have been served better by waiting a year? Or by homeschooling K and jumping in later? Is this affecting his academics and/or confidence level? Who knows. I just don't fault parents trying to make these choices. Especially in an age of all day kindergarten and academic based preschools that really push reading. A good chunk of kids in my son's K class were reading. But most didn't race ahead from that point. Kids here aren't being held back for sports from what I can see. They're being held back either for academic readiness, behavior, and even just general confidence level. The oldest child in my son's K class turned 6 in April! Almost 1 1/2 years older than the child that spent the year with the principal. My own HG+ kid would have had a hard time with the behavioral demands of K a year earlier. And the academics would have still been too slow moving for him. There is no perfect fit in the system for many, many kids, GT or not. Much of the system is broke IMHO.

[Dmmetler]

When my DD was moved into K at 4, first they looked at academics, then an observer came in and watched her in her preschool setting, and finally they sent her to the k classroom and observed her there. Only after seeing that she did better socially with the K kids than the pre-K kids was she moved up-and, so far at least, it's held. It's still not the best fit-the friends she gets along best with tend to be more like 9-12 years old. Even in dance (where her motor skills are NOT advanced) and gymnastics she's been moved to groups where she's the youngest and the age range goes up to 10 or higher-and it's because as soon as they see her with older kids, and see the difference, I get the "I think she'd be happier with the older beginners" discussion. And in those kinds of groups, the only way that she really stands out is that she's just plain TINY. Grownups have a lot more trouble accepting her as a peer for a 10-11 yr old than the 10-11 yr olds do.If it weren't for that pesky handwriting stuff, I suspect I could enroll her for 4th grade (as long as they'd let her read above grade level) and she'd probably do quite well.

 

Behaviorally, she had absolutely NO trouble in K at age 4 because she COULD sit still, could focus, and most of the problems came with the teacher trying to find more to throw at her to do.

Edited September 8, 2011 by dmmetler

[Tracy]

I really identified with your background. For me, "smart" wasn't just part of my identity. It WAS my identity. And that definitely created problems for me that I still feel that I struggle with. I would love for my dd to be able to live without that label. But try as I may to downplay it, it is just not possible for our family to live without it.

 

It started with K at age 4.5yo. She was excited that she was in K and wanted to tell people about it. I could have just told her we were doing Pre-K. But she is tremendously small for her age (not even on the charts), and her same age peers tended to talk to her like she was a baby. Telling them that she was in K was an easy way for her to tell them that she was not a baby.

 

Now that we are in our 3rd year, I don't regret that decision. I have found it to be necessary to talk to her about her giftedness. She really doesn't realize that she is gifted, and so she thinks she can share her academic interests with her friends. I often have to remind her that her friends can't read, for example. Understanding her giftedness is important in navigating friendships and society in general.

 

We don't dwell on it, and we try to counter it by telling her, "It is nice to be smart, but it is better to be nice." We also talk about how strengths and weaknesses are really two sides of the same coin. Being gifted can be a temptation to be arrogant, for example, something dh and I have both struggled with. Smart can be good or bad, depending on what you do with it. Similarly, we have all been blessed with other gifts that can also be good or bad.

[Jenny in Florida]

We are lucky in that DD found a non-academic environment that is accepting of her (she still has the label of the nerdy one, but in a loving way). Part of why that works well is that her friends at the stable are all older - college students, even a graduate student. Except for her one friend, that is the environment where she thrives, has friends.

 

Yes, mine have both found a similar refuge in theatre. They do love the performing, but it's also the social aspect of it that I think is appealing. Especially when they do community or semi-professional shows, they are tossed in with a mixed-age group, often ranging from young kids to older adults. And everyone has to work together to put on the show. Everyone is equally valuable, and everyone is expected to behave in a mature way.

 

When it works well, it's heaven for them.

[Donna]

I also grew up being "the smart one" in school. I didn't hide it but I also got along with everyone and never felt bullied for being smart or a little different. I rarely studied in high school or college but was able to know just how much work to do to get top grades and I was competitive enough to do that.

 

I like that by homeschooling my dd, she doesn't have to feel "competitively" smart or do things just to jump through the hoops to get good grades. She can study and be interested in the things she likes but never has to feel that those interests are different.

 

She is a very socially mature kid. She can play with her 2yo cousin for hours, play dolls with girls around her own age, be in orchestra with those in their teens, or play Irish music with a group of adults. It doesn't matter the situation, she is just as happy and comfortable in any of them.

 

We don't tell people what grade she is "really" doing. It is way too complicated and for most of her subjects I don't even use materials that are grade levelled anyway. When someone asks to make conversation, she says, "I homeschool and if I were in school, I would be in ____ grade." She knows that is all they really want to know, anyway. It is the same with her music...irl, if someone sees the violin on her back in the mall, they don't want to know everything she does with it. They really only want to make conversation.

 

If it is someone we know well who is genuinely curious about homeschooling and how we do it then we might explain more and I have heard her telling older kids what she is studying when they have conversations about what they are doing in school...like all commiserating over their math problems or something.

[poetic license]

I was identified as "gifted" for school purposes but never really gave it a thought as far as thinking I was the "smart one" mainly because I was on the lower end compared to the other people at my magnet and GT schools.

 

I started college at 14 and graduated at 18, so I never really had a typical "teenage" life--all my friends were adults, most of them already grads by then in their 20s+.

 

Growing up I would have appreciated more discussion with my parents about why I was different--not because of intelligence, but because of the social and emotional aspects involved in giftedness. Now when I read books in an effort to understand my son, it's like a form of therapy now in understanding (and accepting) myself. I wish this understanding had occurred years earlier. :(

 

I don't intend on telling my son that he's "gifted" for that sake alone but more for helping him to understand his emotions and sensitivities better. When? I don't know. I'm waiting for the manual, too! :lol:

[rafiki]

.

[MinivanMom]

I was also accelerated and had growth delays on top of that, so I was always the youngest, tiniest, smartest girl around. It was a wonderfully positive experience for me, though. I got a lot of attention from adults and was always made a "pet" (mainly by teachers and parents of friends), but I really needed that emotionally since I was neglected and told I was worthless at home. I was also very fortunate to be placed in a self-contained class for gifted children from 2nd-8th grade where learning was valued and encouraged, so my school experience was very unique.

 

I think there is a fine line we have to walk, between acknowledging that yes, our kids are different, and it's nothing to be ashamed of and making them into a sideshow. We generally operate that it's a non-issue and not anything that most people need to be made aware of, but if someone starts asking questions, we will not down play it at all, just be as concise and honest as possible.

 

:iagree:

 

This is exactly what I strive for with my children. Sometimes I'm afraid that I'm falling short, but I'm always trying to walk this line. I acknowledge and praise my kids' strengths (with an emphasis on effort and attitude), while acknowledging the gifts and accomplishments of others. When people ask questions or praise my kids, I try to be honest without bragging or drawing comparisons. I want my children to know that I see and acknowledge their gifts - that being intelligent is nothing to be ashamed of. At the same time, I want them to understand that kindness, diligence, and non-intellectual gifts are also valuable. It's a tough line to walk.