3 Generations of Homeschooling to Dig Out of This Mess??

[Critterfixer]

I can hardly believe the author is talking within the context of writing and that this is a drawing book. They just don't make 'em like this these days

 

No, they don't, do they?

 

You know, the idea of having my children write with pen instead of pencil had not occurred to me, until you mentioned it in the context of life lessons. It brings to mind the day my son brought me a caterpillar he had accidentally beheaded and asked me to "fix it." He burst into a flood of tears when I explained to him gently that it was dead and I could not fix it. That was almost four years ago, and this rather rough, tumble young man is ever so gentle with anything living, and very responsive to any request to "be more careful." Lessons learned at a young age that I hope he retains, again from the concept that there is forgiveness in life, but not an eraser.

 

I believe I remember a passage from Charlotte Mason discussing the importance of teaching a child to do something perfectly, be it a simple line or something more complex. I thought at the time that this seemed draconian and highly likely to bruise a child's self-worth; but after I thought about it for a while, I think it would do just the opposite. There is satisfaction in having applied yourself and having done a job well; more than if someone praises an effort that you know was not your best.

(Note that she also recommends that if you see a mistake in the making you would direct the child's attention to it, in the same way as she recommends for habit training.)

[SorrelZG]

I'm so glad someone else is posting quotes :-) It is an amazing book.

 

Don't you find that all of the best classical type books cross subject matters? Art and writing overlap continually! I have quite a collection of art and writing books and the crossover is CONSTANT in areas such as observing and describing and creativity and...

 

 

THIS is why I am committed to a classical education - the way these people wrote, the way they thought, is so deep and broad and .. I don't know, universal? The interconnection of so many things just blows my mind.

 

Meanwhile, I'm using this to makeover my preK plans for my daughter to look more like what I did with my son but had abandoned for her with all the contrary things I'd read since then. I'm going to be using this as my guide for her and myself.

[SorrelZG]

No, they don't, do they?

 

You know, the idea of having my children write with pen instead of pencil had not occurred to me, until you mentioned it in the context of life lessons. It brings to mind the day my son brought me a caterpillar he had accidentally beheaded and asked me to "fix it." He burst into a flood of tears when I explained to him gently that it was dead and I could not fix it. That was almost four years ago, and this rather rough, tumble young man is ever so gentle with anything living, and very responsive to any request to "be more careful." Lessons learned at a young age that I hope he retains, again from the concept that there is forgiveness in life, but not an eraser.

 

I believe I remember a passage from Charlotte Mason discussing the importance of teaching a child to do something perfectly, be it a simple line or something more complex. I thought at the time that this seemed draconian and highly likely to bruise a child's self-worth; but after I thought about it for a while, I think it would do just the opposite. There is satisfaction in having applied yourself and having done a job well; more than if someone praises an effort that you know was not your best.

(Note that she also recommends that if you see a mistake in the making you would direct the child's attention to it, in the same way as she recommends for habit training.)

 

I need to pull out Charlotte Mason's books as well, certainly the one on habit training. I have found it interesting though as I read Climbing Parnassus that at certain points CM and the old style classical diverge sharply - for instance, CM taught one not to come between the child and the book whereas classically the children were taught what to think (what was of value, etc) about the text. Granted, I'm not through Climbing Parnassus and I'm not well read on CM but that's what I've gleaned at this point. I have to stop putting it off and just read her books already.

[Hunter]

Climbing Parnassus reminds me of my few years of schooling in Bermuda. Very heavy handed. To this day I don't know which is "better". Maybe neither :-0

 

I think we need to read both CM and CP and then try our best to do what is right for ourselves and our students and children. Probably something down the middle is "best".

[SorrelZG]

Climbing Parnassus, pp. 80-81. I put in bold the parts that especially struck me.

 

"The well-organized education system of the {Roman} Empire," wrote historian R. R. Bolgar, "had for its main aim to teach the two literary languages and to inculcate in the minds of all its pupils the established methods and desirability of imitation." Here was not a recipe for an atomized society of self-centered individuals, but one for unity of culture, providing a form of education that made such elusive unity attainable, a reasonable prospect. Yet the method was sober in its high demands. When aims are pitched high, even a partial failure may lead to ultimate success. The climb itself builds muscles, even if we don't reach the top. Out of this disposition of mind classical education arose.

 

Classical education thus begins to reveal a few of its stoney outcroppings. Underlying its method is, first, a certain belief that learning is a hard, intractable affair and resistant to attempts to smooth the edges in order to make it otherwise and, second, another belief that its fruits ought to serve more than the individual -- while never doing less. Anything worth knowing comes to be known at a price, often an exacting one paid over many years. The consequences reach far. People have a common culture. And, as Jacques Barzun has written, a culture of the classical kind strives for "fixed grandeur, dignity, authority, and high polish; while in the individual it produces morality and peace by showing him that values are rooted in the universe, rather than dependent upon his fallible and changing judgment." This is the essence of classical Humanism.

[SorrelZG]

Climbing Parnassus reminds me of my few years of schooling in Bermuda. Very heavy handed. To this day I don't know which is "better". Maybe neither :-0

 

I think we need to read both CM and CP and then try our best to do what is right for ourselves and our students and children. Probably something down the middle is "best".

 

Probably so. I have much reading and thinking to do.

[FO4UR]

I would love it if others would also start posting quotes from what they are reading.

 

 

Understood Betsy chapter 3 has some sweet insights on education. I was chuckling as I read it to my dc tonight. Have you ever met an ounce?

 

 

Part of trauma recovery, is understanding that people are not mirrors. What they say about us, tells us more about them than it does about ourselves. An art teacher who tells a student they have no talent, is a teacher who has no talent to teach.

 

Profound. Truly. I'm a musician...and, I've met a few teachers who have no talent to teach.;) I'm going to be mulling this one over in my mind for a while.

 

I spent a lot of time with CW last night. I don't know if I will try to make any progress through the series, but book A is an amazing resource for learning to teach spelling and writing and grammar with ANY piece of writing. Along with WRTR I know I will be reading this book over and over and over.

 

Reading your posts results in books being placed in my wishlist....:tongue_smilie: I have the CW Primers, and I love the lay-out but am constantly tempted to use it as a template to write my own based on books we are already reading. (Same with WWE, which I have been doing for a while.) It all equals more work for me. LOL

 

 

Climbing Parnassus, pp. 80-81. I put in bold the parts that especially struck me.

 

 

One of my favorite teachers in college made us memorize a quote...something like..."It is better to aim high and miss the mark than to aim low and hit it." That's how I try to approach this thing. I *know* moving forward that I *am* going to miss that mark, but every time I aim higher it is better than aiming low. Balancing failure into the mix must be a given, and that's the hard part...atleast I think it is...

 

Some people read Climbing Parnassus or Charlotte Mason or EstherMaria (:001_smile:) and say "sour grapes" b/c there is a fear of failure. I simply don't fear my failure. It's inevitable. However, my failure will result in something better than if I decided to stick my head in the sand and never grow as a person, parent or teacher.

 

Embrace failure. (That should be my new siggie.:lol:)

[Critterfixer]

Nothing so lofty here. I had in mind to read Jane Austen or Tolstoy the other day, and Austen won out because I've been a bit tired with the heat.

 

So, here's a sentence I read that reminded me of my own ignorance.

 

"The evil of the actual disparity in their ages (and Mr. Woodhouse had not married early) was much increased by his constitution and habits; for having been a valetudinarian all his life, without activity of mind or body, he was a much older man in ways than in years..."

I could not for the life of me figure out valetudinarian in the context, although I had a vague notion. I had to break out the dictionary to find that it is a word with the same meaning as hypochondriac.

I consider myself to be a good reader, and reasonably well read, but somehow working my way through an engaging story like Emma, with some nice subtle sarcasm to make me smile, is a challenge due to the density of the language! Funny. Heavy physiology texts and pathology texts never bothered me that way. It just goes to show that I probably specialized too early in life. The density of medical terms feels like home to me, in a way that literature may not.

 

I simply don't fear my failure. It's inevitable.

 

I don't know who to attribute this quote to, but it's been up on my wall before.

"Confidence comes not from always being right, but from not fearing to be wrong."

 

 

A while back the question was asked as to what this thread had inspired in educational direction. For myself, I have decided to really broaden our history focus.

I have decided that my children will be getting not only Europe for the Middle Ages, but I'm committed to teaching them more about Chinese History, Russian History as well as the history of Africa and the Middle East in the same time period this year.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Critterfixer

[SorrelZG]

Climbing Parnassus, pp79-80.

 

An essay attributed to Plutarch fastened upon the link between mental training and moral behavior, asserting that "there must be a concurrence of three things to produce right action: nature, reason, and habit. By reason I mean the act of learning, and by habit constant practice. The first beginnings come from nature, advancement from learning, the practical use from constant repetition, and the culmination from all combined. So far as any of these is wanting, the moral excellence must, to this extent, be crippled." Restraint was a moral good. Horace suited this idea in poetical armor: "The poet fashions the tender, lisping lips of childhood; even then he turns the ear from unseemly words; presently, too, he moulds the heart by kindly precepts, correcting roughness and envy and anger. He tells of noble deeds, equips the rising age with famous examples, and to the helpless and sick at heart brings comfort." [..] There was no divorce of the public and private. Sentiments like these children took in almost with their mother's milk. Their earliest lessons contained moral admonitions couched in precise, elegant language, examples of moral virtue matched to the finest expressions.

 

I was actually convicted by this passage. And it reminded me of Charlotte Mason. Here my impression is that they are in harmony.

[SorrelZG]

 

Part of trauma recovery, is understanding that people are not mirrors. What they say about us, tells us more about them than it does about ourselves. An art teacher who tells a student they have no talent, is a teacher who has no talent to teach.

 

 

I need to internalize this. It was comforting to read again. I'll need to read it again.

[SorrelZG]

 

One of my favorite teachers in college made us memorize a quote...something like..."It is better to aim high and miss the mark than to aim low and hit it." That's how I try to approach this thing. I *know* moving forward that I *am* going to miss that mark, but every time I aim higher it is better than aiming low. Balancing failure into the mix must be a given, and that's the hard part...atleast I think it is...

 

Some people read Climbing Parnassus or Charlotte Mason or EstherMaria (:001_smile:) and say "sour grapes" b/c there is a fear of failure. I simply don't fear my failure. It's inevitable. However, my failure will result in something better than if I decided to stick my head in the sand and never grow as a person, parent or teacher.

 

Embrace failure. (That should be my new siggie.:lol:)

 

This is something I need to internalize too. I've lived my life in fear of failure and so not truly lived at all. My current season of life is something of a not-quite-mid-life awakening. At least, that is what I am hoping and striving for.

[FO4UR]

This is something I need to internalize too. I've lived my life in fear of failure and so not truly lived at all. My current season of life is something of a not-quite-mid-life awakening. At least, that is what I am hoping and striving for.

 

:grouphug:

[Hunter]

I've lost a list of "Trauma Survivor Rights", but some of them were the following:

 

The right to make mistakes

The right to be wrong and do it anyway

The right to change one's mind

 

Abusers mock their victims for doing whatever they don't want them to do, and praise them for what they do want them to do. They also isolate the victim as much as possible, so that their mocking and praise is the only input. An intense fear of making mistakes is cultivated by reacting with extreme punishment for small "mistakes", when "mistake" often only means, not within the comfort zone of the abuser. Victims are also taught that they have no intrinsic worth, and their only value lies in being perfect.

 

Even after years or decades away from the abuser, the fear of making mistakes is so strong that the victim thinks the people around them are mirrors and that a mistake is very dangerous, and diminishes their worth as a person.

 

Guilt is feeling bad about something you DID. Shame is about feeling bad about who you ARE. Mistakes don't change who you are as a person or make you less valuable. They are oppurtunities to experiment and grow. It is critical that we experiment with things that might fail, things that we might change our minds about, and things that those around us mock. That is how we grow. It is our right to have the oppurtunity to grow.

[justamouse]

Climbing Parnassus reminds me of my few years of schooling in Bermuda. Very heavy handed. To this day I don't know which is "better". Maybe neither :-0

 

I think we need to read both CM and CP and then try our best to do what is right for ourselves and our students and children. Probably something down the middle is "best".

 

Yeah, from what I'm remembering, I think you're right.

[mo2]

Probably something down the middle is "best".

 

 

That is true of so many things!

 

I'm really enjoying this thread. Thank you!

[stripe]

Yes, Hunter, I too believe this is the case. Except, I think some of those slaves are here on U.S. soil. One of the issues with illegal immigration that doesn't get much attention is that some of the people end up as slaves. Then there are people who are kidnapped, usually children, and people who are sold. It keeps me up at night.

 

I read this a while back:

Nobodies: modern American slave labor and the dark side of the new global economy

 

It's pretty frightening.

 

One of his profiles is some employees from India who are eventually (they feel) enslaved -- passports taken, forced to work for a pittance in squalid conditions, no chance to leave. But there are several perspectives that doubt that they could be enslaved. One is the idea that no matter how bad it is for them here, it has to be better than in India, where they were starving. (Never mind that they were not starving in India.) Also the idea that just existing on US soil is enough to make it not slavery. They should be grateful.

 

Anyway if you're interested in the topic and have a strong stomach, I recommend it. The other stories are equally compelling.

[Bang!Zoom!]

Just wanted to say, this thread sold a hardcover full-price copy of WTM...lol..I could not stand not really grasping what some of the theories ya'll were bouncing around were clearly about.

 

So I have a copy now and all sorts of "wow/bang/zoom" things are happening for me now.

 

Hunter, you are a most awesome person with a most brilliant mind to ponder this and share.

 

I am forever grateful.

 

Really.:grouphug:

[Colleen in NS]

Hunter, have you looked at the American Drawing Book mentioned in Critterfixer's vintage thread? Read through the beginning of the first chapter, see what you think.

 

:svengo: I never knew books like this existed. I need to go back to that vintage thread and start figuring out how to access free vintage books online.

 

I've already switched my son from pencil to pen for his work

 

Huh, I remember switching from pencil to pen somewhere in jr. high or high school....and I've never thought about that issue for my own kids. They just use pencil, or type compositions/outlines on the computer. BUT, when we used Drawing With Children, I had them use permanent marker, because I was convinced by the argument to do so in DWC. Sometimes my kids would ask if they could use pencil, but I said no. Why have I never thought about this in relation to other work?

 

In relation, what areas would you have your kids use pen only? Compositions? Filling in workbooks? Math?? Why or why not? I probably wouldn't have them do it for math or workbooks, but I could see doing it for compositions - beautiful handwriting, paying closer attention, etc..

 

Don't you find that all of the best classical type books cross subject matters? Art and writing overlap continually! I have quite a collection of art and writing books and the crossover is CONSTANT in areas such as observing and describing and creativity and...

 

I noticed a lot of math in that art book. I loved it!

 

I wish I had more profound things to say here, but I don't. And I definitely know now that what I would love to see happen in my family won't happen in one generation.

 

P.S. Yes, Hunter, I too am glad you pondered and brought this all up. I get so bored of seeing the same old threads about which curriculum/books to choose for what studies. I help where I can, but give me deeper stuff like this any day! I can't get over that drawing book - what a GREAT and DEEEEEEEEEEP teaching resource!!!!

Edited August 8, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[FO4UR]

Just wanted to say, this thread sold a hardcover full-price copy of WTM...lol..I could not stand not really grasping what some of the theories ya'll were bouncing around were clearly about.

 

So I have a copy now and all sorts of "wow/bang/zoom" things are happening for me now.

 

 

 

 

:cheers2:

[Critterfixer]

The American Drawing book, by John Gadsby Chapman was supposed to be part of a series according to the back cover. He wanted to do one on painting I think, and the third one escapes me at the moment. Anyway, I went looking for them.

He never got a chance to write them. JG Chapman was a renowned American painter, and apparently there are still some of his paintings hanging in the US Capital. His son was also an artist. Anyway, he ended up moving to Europe shortly after the publication of the American Drawing Book and spent some time there, before returning to the US. He once lived comfortably, but died a pauper. Interesting person.

[justamouse]

Just wanted to say, this thread sold a hardcover full-price copy of WTM...lol..I could not stand not really grasping what some of the theories ya'll were bouncing around were clearly about.

 

So I have a copy now and all sorts of "wow/bang/zoom" things are happening for me now.

 

Hunter, you are a most awesome person with a most brilliant mind to ponder this and share.

 

I am forever grateful.

 

Really.:grouphug:

 

Isn't that an awesome place to be? Fun, fun, fun.

[Hunter]

Thank you all for keeping this thread going :-)

 

My 2nd edition TWTM came in. It's nice to have a copy I can write in.

 

Page 55: By the end of fourth grade, the child should learn the proper names and usages of all the parts of speech, the rules of punctuation and capitalization, dictionary use, and the proper forms of letters, reports, and other common pieces of writing. Until these skills are mastered, he won't be able to exercise language with the mastery that the logic stage demands.

 

Okay, so...if this isn't mastered by grade 4, I figure this is a place to dig in your heels, and stop moving forward, until it IS mastered. This is a LOT to MASTER, and honestly I think more than a lot of first generation homeschoolers should expect of themselves. I think the important point isn't the AGE these skills are mastered by, but that these skills are prerequisites for the logic stage curriculum, never mind the rhetoric stage curriculum.

 

How many parents have read ahead to the logic and rhetoric curriculums, ordered the suggested materials, and are trying to use them to teach their children when even mom, hasn't mastered these skills yet?

 

I haven't read it in depth yet, but skimming the introduction to the Logic stage describes the changes in the brain development of a 5th grader and just makes the assumption that a proper foundation has been laid. Just because logic age children think differently and approach learning about their world differently doesn't mean they yet have the skills and knowledge to make full use of having entered this developmental stage.

[Bang!Zoom!]

I'm reading WTM for the first time (backstory) and am headed toward page 500.

 

Now I realize that the book is not something that you read once, make a few notes in, and stick back up on the shelf. It's almost a living tutor or introduction to the theory of classical education which I'd never understood before.

 

Now that I'm reading the first few pages of rhetoric, what that encompasses..everything that came before it sort of snapped for me. It really caused me some "ah HAH!" moments. What is the name of those..NPR "driveway moments"..ya..like that. It's just BANG.

 

I need to push myself past the reading and keep going, but I'm telling ya what, hitting rhetoric really makes everything else make sense.

 

I'm really glad that I read the suggestion to read even those portions which do NOT apply to your situation because information in those early pages are sort of like "gears" not to be missed for the entire machine of classical WTM style.

 

I seriously could just park myself in fleshing out rhetoric and spend the rest of my life there. I don't know if anyone else had this reaction to this chapter but man alive, it's really caused some intellectual fire for me.

 

I love it.

 

ps: I have no idea why I'm drawing a similarity in wow factor between Hitchhikers Guide to the Entire Galaxy and this book, but....

 

I am. :)

 

Someone please tell me this is NOT an original thought? :)

Edited August 9, 2011 by one*mom

[Critterfixer]

I seriously could just park myself in fleshing out rhetoric and spend the rest of my life there. I don't know if anyone else had this reaction to this chapter but man alive, it's really caused some intellectual fire for me.

 

 

Well, I was looking for some heavy reading tonight. I think I'll go back and read that section as well.

 

I'm really glad that I read the suggestion to read even those portions which do NOT apply to your situation because information in those early pages are sort of like "gears" not to be missed for the entire machine of classical WTM style.

 

That's what I mean by constructing the foundation by knowing the weight of the whole structure.

 

Page 55: By the end of fourth grade, the child should learn the proper names and usages of all the parts of speech, the rules of punctuation and capitalization, dictionary use, and the proper forms of letters, reports, and other common pieces of writing. Until these skills are mastered, he won't be able to exercise language with the mastery that the logic stage demands.

 

Okay, so...if this isn't mastered by grade 4, I figure this is a place to dig in your heels, and stop moving forward, until it IS mastered. This is a LOT to MASTER, and honestly I think more than a lot of first generation homeschoolers should expect of themselves. I think the important point isn't the AGE these skills are mastered by, but that these skills are prerequisites for the logic stage curriculum, never mind the rhetoric stage curriculum.

 

My gut reaction is to bristle. What does she mean---no further until these skills are mastered? And then I remember sitting at a table in a greenhouse, potting orchids, while a graduate student entertained me with papers written by incoming college freshmen. I'm no grammar star by any means, but I was appalled. This was over fifteen years ago. Somehow, I don't think it will have improved since then. I think she is correct.

It is a lot to master, but I am not entirely sure that mastery can be demonstrated UNTIL those skills are applied. So, the first year of logic stage material would be an opportunity to see how well the student handles the tools he learned in the grammar stage.

[Hunter]

From Understanding Writing

 

Mastery means thoroughly comfortable, confident, and consistently accurate.

 

When a child masters a skill is relatively unimportant as long as he masters it before he needs it.

 

How often we ask our novice writers to run a marathon when they have yet to learn proper technique for running 50 yards.

 

The only way to learn writing is to write frequently and the only way to have students write frequently is to have them write short pieces.

 

Persons who are comfortable writing a good single paragraph will find it easy to transition to longer compositions.

[Bang!Zoom!]

An example of why.

 

"Let's eat, Grandpa!"

"Let's eat Grandpa!"

[mo2]

You all are making me get WTM back off the shelf for a re-read. And LCC.

[Hunter]

An example of why.

 

"Let's eat, Grandpa!"

"Let's eat Grandpa!"

 

:lol:

 

I haven't read Hitchhiker's Guide, so can't comment on that.

[Critterfixer]

Persons who are comfortable writing a good single paragraph will find it easy to transition to longer compositions.

 

Sometimes I think it is more difficult to write a single good paragraph, concise and clear, than it is to write a longer composition. I have more admiration for the short story than the novel.

 

How often we ask our novice writers to run a marathon when they have yet to learn proper technique for running 50 yards.

 

I do understand what the writer is trying to say here, but the analogy doesn't work for me. The proper technique for running 50 yards has very little to do with running a marathon. Training is different. The mentality of a sprinter is not the mentality needed by a marathon runner. Even a sprint mentality is useless for a 5K!

 

The only way to learn writing is to write frequently and the only way to have students write frequently is to have them write short pieces.

 

 

Therefore, the introduction of journals and daily writing in PS classrooms. I've seen some of this work. I don't see that it has helped. To write something one first has to have something to say. The student has to think. Last year I had the opportunity to look at a poem that a student had been asked to analyze. The poem was a modern one. I was unfamiliar with it. My response to the student was that I could see a few ways to approach the poem analytically, but that likely I should reflect on it first, for a few days if possible. Her response--the poem had been given that afternoon and the write-up was due the next day! The student was forced to interpret the poem through the methods she believed her teacher would prefer, and not allowed to have time to gather and organize her own thoughts! All in the name of encouraging writing!

 

I have no argument with the other statements.

[Bang!Zoom!]

I was reading WTM on the deck, watching the sunset, in the last chapter.

 

This thing is starting to sound like a symphony. I keep thinking, "Fortuna"..lol Something about the reasoning section is really crawling under my skin, like someone looked in my dresser drawers.

 

I had to shut the cover. Walk away. Put it down. Come inside. Sit in the quiet.

 

This thing, this idea of elitism. The idea of slaves. Of democracy.

 

::looks around...hmm, I'll try it one time:::

 

Imagine either Jessie or Susan in the place of Andre Rieu here. Imagine the orchestra & cast as the ideas explored in WTM.

 

I sort of saw it like...say the ladies in the black and diamond gowns...each representing a major discipline specific..greek philosophy, rhetoric, science, language...and the men to the right...math, logic, ethics, reading. The orchestra as the finer elements and explorations, the sub topics and supports.

 

It's readers, (like myself)- as the audience, the receivers.

 

Now how in the heck do you take something like that and get it into an educational philosophy.

 

 

 

ps: I want the role of the lady crying in her wine glass at the end. :)

Edited August 9, 2011 by one*mom

[Roadrunner]

I spent the last two days reading "Climbing Parnassus". Thank you Hunter!!!!!!!!!

[beaners]

My gut reaction is to bristle. What does she mean---no further until these skills are mastered? And then I remember sitting at a table in a greenhouse, potting orchids, while a graduate student entertained me with papers written by incoming college freshmen. I'm no grammar star by any means, but I was appalled. This was over fifteen years ago. Somehow, I don't think it will have improved since then. I think she is correct.

It is a lot to master, but I am not entirely sure that mastery can be demonstrated UNTIL those skills are applied. So, the first year of logic stage material would be an opportunity to see how well the student handles the tools he learned in the grammar stage.

 

I think the reason it makes me want to bristle is because I'm coming to the table with my own abilities as the norm. (How do I say all of this without sounding pretentious? Please understand that is not my intention.) My oldest appears to be at least within the same range based on the skills she has already acquired, and my 2 year old seems to be accomplishing things faster than that. Just trying to wrap my head around my particular children "stalling out" at that stage, even through middle school, leaves me with the conclusion that I have failed these children terribly.

 

I agree that a lot of the skills in the grammar and logic stage need to be mastered before a high quality rhetoric-level education can begin. I'm not sure if every single skill laid out is immediately necessary to begin at least some work at the next stage. Some details may be understood at a superficial level, but not completely internalized until later.

 

Liping Ma's book is coming to mind here. How many "mathy" people have said that they read this book and came away with an appreciation for just how shallow their own math education was? These people, and I include myself, were able to master and apply advanced concepts in calculus and beyond. I will be able to give my children a much better early math education than I received, but that doesn't mean I was effectively unable to work with any higher level material. Of course, math and science are funny characters in a program based so heavily on literature and history through the ages.

 

I also feel that a strong grammar stage education may be the equivalent to or better than the average high school graduate's education. My goals for myself and for my family appear to be way beyond that level. My goals might also be (probably are, definitely are...) beyond the level that we will reach. Adding the components of a STEM program to the WTM is probably a bit heavy, eh? And wait for Climbing Parnassus to come through Interlibrary Loan.

[Hunter]

I think the child who is running "behind" is also the child who is unable to just "wing" assignments. Many people need to be systematically and concretely taught, rather than being able to gather clues and just infer how to move forward.

 

This is why gifted people who have infered their way through life, make such lousy teachers. "Just do it" they say to the person in a wheelchair eyeing a tall flight of steps. Yes, the gifted person bounded up the steps on strong legs, taking them 3 at a time, but the average child needs to be TAUGHT how to climb stairs one at a time, and the child in the wheel chair is going to need even more help.

 

If you skip, "this is how you climb a step" and then "This is how you climb a flight of stairs", many or most students will not be able to enjoy what is at the top of the stairs. Even those that crawl up the stairs and are now dirty and scraped up, might have made it upstairs, but not fully able to enjoy what is up there, especially if there are more flights of stairs behind every door.

 

Crawling and slithering on your belly is a messy, inefficient and degrading way to move upwards.

[Critterfixer]

I think the reason it makes me want to bristle is because I'm coming to the table with my own abilities as the norm.

 

Whether it is God or karma, it seems to me that there is some kind of destiny that gives a gifted person children that are totally and wonderfully different. I was reading by four, my sons find reading a challenge at seven. And yet as I work my way through their lessons, I realized how much I missed along the way.

 

Charging up steps three at a time gets you to the top, but you never really got to know the steps. When I was young I saw education as just the road to get me where I wanted to be. Now I see it as more of a journey that I should have paid more attention to. It's hard to be a guide when you don't remember that landmark or side-trail because you ran right by it the first time you took the trail.

[laughing lioness]

Every time I see this thread, which I have avoided commenting on so far:001_smile:, I am reminded of this saying: It takes 3 generations to create a prince:

The first generation must be a savvy enough bizman to generate a small fortune.

The second generation must keep the fortune, expand it and be politically/socially savvy enough to marry into a royal family

The 3rd generation enjoys standing on the shoulders of who went before

 

I'm waiting to see what SWB's kids end up doing ;)

[Hunter]

Every time I see this thread, which I have avoided commenting on so far:001_smile:, I am reminded of this saying: It takes 3 generations to create a prince:

The first generation must be a savvy enough bizman to generate a small fortune.

The second generation must keep the fortune, expand it and be politically/socially savvy enough to marry into a royal family

The 3rd generation enjoys standing on the shoulders of who went before

 

I'm waiting to see what SWB's kids end up doing ;)

 

If we were to end this thread right now, wouldn't that make a nice conclusion :-)

 

I'm going to be thinking about this ALL day trying to figure out how, or if it even does, apply to the other things I have been reading.

 

Thank you for deciding to add your input. This quote CERTAINLY should be here. Hmmmm....

 

Comments anyone? :bigear:

[justamouse]

 

 

 

ps: I want the role of the lady crying in her wine glass at the end. :)

 

you made me cry watching that. and then I bawled at Ave Maria. Andre is so hot. All he needs is a kilt.

 

sigh

 

/hijack

 

I'm reading another book, a Catholic book on the Tabernacle of our houses and it totally segues into these philosophies of education.

[OrdinaryTime]

Since part of the concept of classical education is based on the idea of a deep understanding of a shared culture and history -entering the "Great Conversation" as someone aptly put it- I think it is difficult to create a classical education, in the strictest understanding of the term, in just a generation in our current society. The intellectual and cultural heritage that forms the basis of a classical education is no longer the predominate shared ideal in our culture. Even if you can create a solid atmosphere within the home, I think it would be difficult to completely offset the lack of support from society. This seems to me to be one of the great take aways of classical education - culture matters! Families can work at building community around themselves that supports their educational and cultural goals, but that can take real time.

 

Also, I do think the attainment of a classical education is greatly dependent, not just on the teacher(s), but on the student. Students have different abilities and interests. I'm the eldest of seven children. I've always been fascinated by the "Great Conversations" of western civilization. I recieved a better than average education, though not strictly classical, and consider myself at least a spectator of the great thinkers and conversations of western civilization. Philosophy, literature, history, theology, art, political science...This is how I came to know Truth, Goodness, and Beauty, the real "stuff" of life, which is the point of education.

 

Now I have siblings that share this love and those that do not. We all were given roughly the same education, parenting, home enviroment, etc. Some of my siblings just encounter Truth, Goodness, and Beauty through different mediums than the general tools of classical education, mainly books. They may be somewhat less educated, but they are just as wise. Some learn through the glory of nature and the dignity of work; some through an amazing ability to understand other people in human interactions.

 

This is not to dismiss the importance of a classical education. It is important to have a continuous transmission of the knowledge and beauty that our civilization has gained over the centeries. But not everyone is meant to be an intellectual. Those that aren't have a path that can contribute just as profoundly to mankind's store of Truth, Goodness, and Beauty, though.

[OrdinaryTime]

Oh, and I wanted to share a quick quote for those who may feel behind the ball in our own educations that I have always found encouraging by C.S. Lewis:

 

"And here observe how literature actually works. Parrot critics say that Sohrab is a poem for classicists, to be enjoyed only by those who recognize the Homeric echoes. But I, in Octie's form room knew nothing of Homer. For me the relation between Arnold and Homer worked the other way; when I came years later, to read the Iliad I liked it partly because it was for me reminiscent of Sohrab. Plainly, it does not matter at what point you first break into the system of European literature. Only keep your ears open and your mouth shut and everything will lead you to everything else in the end - ogni parte ad ogni parte splende."

 

Subsist "Western Civilization" for European literature and I think that about covers it.

[SorrelZG]

Every time I see this thread, which I have avoided commenting on so far:001_smile:, I am reminded of this saying: It takes 3 generations to create a prince:

The first generation must be a savvy enough bizman to generate a small fortune.

The second generation must keep the fortune, expand it and be politically/socially savvy enough to marry into a royal family

The 3rd generation enjoys standing on the shoulders of who went before

 

I'm waiting to see what SWB's kids end up doing ;)

 

Since part of the concept of classical education is based on the idea of a deep understanding of a shared culture and history -entering the "Great Conversation" as someone aptly put it- I think it is difficult to create a classical education, in the strictest understanding of the term, in just a generation in our current society. The intellectual and cultural heritage that forms the basis of a classical education is no longer the predominate shared ideal in our culture. Even if you can create a solid atmosphere within the home, I think it would be difficult to completely offset the lack of support from society. This seems to me to be one of the great take aways of classical education - culture matters! Families can work at building community around themselves that supports their educational and cultural goals, but that can take real time.

 

Also, I do think the attainment of a classical education is greatly dependent, not just on the teacher(s), but on the student. Students have different abilities and interests. I'm the eldest of seven children. I've always been fascinated by the "Great Conversations" of western civilization. I recieved a better than average education, though not strictly classical, and consider myself at least a spectator of the great thinkers and conversations of western civilization. Philosophy, literature, history, theology, art, political science...This is how I came to know Truth, Goodness, and Beauty, the real "stuff" of life, which is the point of education.

 

Now I have siblings that share this love and those that do not. We all were given roughly the same education, parenting, home enviroment, etc. Some of my siblings just encounter Truth, Goodness, and Beauty through different mediums than the general tools of classical education, mainly books. They may be somewhat less educated, but they are just as wise. Some learn through the glory of nature and the dignity of work; some through an amazing ability to understand other people in human interactions.

 

This is not to dismiss the importance of a classical education. It is important to have a continuous transmission of the knowledge and beauty that our civilization has gained over the centeries. But not everyone is meant to be an intellectual. Those that aren't have a path that can contribute just as profoundly to mankind's store of Truth, Goodness, and Beauty, though.

 

I agree.

 

And OrdinaryTime, Climbing Parnassus states plainly that not everyone will "make it to the top of Parnassus" so to speak and in my limited scope of perception there appears to be a cultural "thing" against the idea of any goal that is not attainable by all. It's as if anyone that would value and pursue a goal that is not attainable by all must of necessity be arrogant .. although that line of reasoning doesn't appear carry over to non-intellectual pursuits. (I know they weren't worried about any child being "left behind" in my art class :glare:)

 

Personally, I'm completely comfortable with pursuing a goal I may never attain and urging my children to go as far as they can also.

 

Oh, and just to clarify, I wasn't disputing anything you said .. just building my own thoughts upon yours - probably in a different direction than yours were leaning.

Edited August 9, 2011 by SCGS

[laughing lioness]

education is no longer the predominate shared ideal in our culture. Even if you can create a solid atmosphere within the home, I think it would be difficult to completely offset the lack of support from society. This seems to me to be one of the great take aways of classical education - culture matters! Families can work at building community around themselves that supports their educational and cultural goals, but that can take real time.

 

Also, I do think the attainment of a classical education is greatly dependent, not just on the teacher(s), but on the student. Students have different abilities and interests..

 

The first paragraph is something we talk about frequently in our home. Creating a community takes people. My dh and I have the ability to give our kids a lot- but not everything. Finding community that values education without making it a religion, values religion without becoming pedantic, etc. has been a decades long pursuit for us and one we keep coming up short on.

Intentional education (vs. mass marketed government ed) is a niche market; classical ed is a niche-niche. There is a lack of critical mass to really find classical community in most places, so far.

 

I do think that different students bring differences to the table. I also think that if we give kids a firm foundation that is actually firm they can grow up and have options available to them to create a life for themselves that utilizes their skills and abilities, rather than keeping them limited by their natural bents. (speaking generally, of course).

[Bang!Zoom!]

I'm going to finish my 1st reading of WTM today. I know I'll be reading it over and over and over again, cover to cover, chapter and by subject or topic; and that's okay.

 

If I had to give out in one condensed sentence what the most powerful point of WTM is for the way I viewed it, it is this.

 

WTM/classical education is about training a mind methodically to become a skillful thinker, not just a person who is filled with a vessel of facts.

 

Educated is not the same as someone who has the skills to think.

 

Okay, time to crack the cover.

 

ps: I glad someone out there connected to the cry baby. I empathized with her. I'd do it too. :)

[SorrelZG]

The first paragraph is something we talk about frequently in our home. Creating a community takes people. My dh and I have the ability to give our kids a lot- but not everything. Finding community that values education without making it a religion, values religion without becoming pedantic, etc. has been a decades long pursuit for us and one we keep coming up short on.

Intentional education (vs. mass marketed government ed) is a niche market; classical ed is a niche-niche. There is a lack of critical mass to really find classical community in most places, so far.

 

I do think that different students bring differences to the table. I also think that if we give kids a firm foundation that is actually firm they can grow up and have options available to them to create a life for themselves that utilizes their skills and abilities, rather than keeping them limited by their natural bents. (speaking generally, of course).

 

:iagree:

 

I think I'm just going to limit myself to agreeing with others since effectively putting thoughts into words isn't my strong suit. :tongue_smilie:

[SorrelZG]

Okay Hunter, since you got me reading WRTR again and since DS is finishing up Hooked On Phonics Gr. 2 this week and I'm not really "getting" Spelling Workout and WRTR has always looked quick and simple (once you get what you're doing, I mean :lol:, perhaps it's just the way my brain is wired), as a result of this thread I'm dropping SWO for WRTR so I can continue phonics and cover spelling in a way that appears to suit me better.

 

I know it's a small change (and based on somewhat of a tangent topic). More changes to come.

[Bang!Zoom!]

On the idea of "generational" progress. Here's my family story; (and I know that this is unique, one-time framework).

 

My female maternal side:

 

Great-grandmother, completely uneducated, lived feral, moved to a reservation mid-life, spawned 9 children. Of those 9 children, no formal education again. No travel or culture outside her own.

 

Grandmother, completely uneducated, of her children, six were removed to attend Indian school under the auspices of Roman Catholic instruction. No travel, community consisted of value clashing, heritage shifting. First generation to speak in English.

 

My mother, educated at the school, left speaking 5 languages, classically educated. My mother was world-traveled, exposed to many cultures. First generation to graduate, read and work outside the home.

 

Myself. Public-education with at home enrichment. I see now what she was doing was classical exposure as she could. I travel, speak only one language, but read in two, very exposed to educational pathway, work, independence.

 

My children: Educationally aware, self-reliant, independent, traveled and cultured in community. More a stress on fine arts exposure, reading and job skills.

 

My siblings are a mixed bag as a result. Some fell wayside to the values of my Grandmother...survival is the only thing. Some fell the other way, achieving some wonderful educational achievements.

 

There has been generational fragmentation in my siblings children as far as educational experiences and the results they live out today.

 

For the ones that completed college, most are PH'd geared, and careers which match, along with multiple language skills, travel and deeper exploration of foreign culture.

 

What caused the black and white differences for our children? Was it sociological economics? Why did some of the children drop out, become entrapped in poverty while others pressed on?

 

I know this is terrible to say, but for this family I can locate certain points on the axis of their lives. For the females, it was relationships which caused failure...unplanned pregnancy, a disinterest in education, and cycles of poverty which are taking their toll.

 

With the males who also slipped back, it was a matter of addictions such as drugs or alcohol.

 

The one thing that both the regressions have in common is that the behaviors began in their school years. The important thing is the relationships that they formed with others in the schools that would haunt them, and their children.

 

For the ones that pressed on, same story. The connections and bonds that stuck and were causation for advancement were also made during the school years (as well as a lot of healthy family supports).

 

It's a myriad of factors, but as the other poster was saying, the role of culture exposure and community along with family values are really important.

 

I'm pretty sure that classical education is only one component (not weighing more or less than) in the puzzle of generational advancement.

 

Can a child thrive with only 1 being present and the other two factors removed?

 

Some do. Some do not.

 

Why?

Edited August 9, 2011 by one*mom

[OrdinaryTime]

I absolutely agree with setting a high bar and giving every student a good foundational education that enables them to think and communicate clearly. A traditional classical education usually requires quite a bit more, especially in regards to language. Latin and Greek are both generally seen as foundational for a classic education. I think mastering two languages that garner little support or respect in our society is a fair large task. It is a much harder task than it was a hundred years ago when Latin and Greek were considered normal prep work. I just didn't want moms to beat themselves up or abandon ship completely if they can't provide a perfect classical education to each child. Not that it isn't worth the effort!

[Hunter]

 

ps: I glad someone out there connected to the cry baby. I empathized with her. I'd do it too. :)

 

I have no idea what some of you are talking about. I have missed some typical American culture, during the more interesting and traumatic events in my life. I've sometimes spent large amounts of time very secluded with nothing but the books that just happened to be available to me. I was in my 30s the first time I saw Snow White and Sleeping Beauty and don't think I even saw the entire films :-0 My musical background is so lacking, it is almost nonexistent.

 

Just know I'm not being rude, just stupid, when I'm not responding to some of these posts.

[Bang!Zoom!]

The "cry baby" is a lady in the you tube video Hunter.

 

She's just especially moved emotionally by the beauty of the performance of the orchestra.

:D

 

 

 

I'd tried to sketch an analogy between WTM and this performance.

[Hunter]

The "cry baby" is a lady in the you tube video Hunter.

 

She's just especially moved emotionally by the beauty of the performance of the orchestra.

:D

 

 

 

I'd tried to sketch an analogy between WTM and this performance.

 

Maybe she isn't moved by beauty. Maybe she got scared. They remind me of possessed dolls with torso that don't bend. :confused: I wanted to cry too, but because I was totally creeped out.

[Bang!Zoom!]

Wow, really? I'd of never thought of that!

 

Isn't it nice to compare viewpoints for contrast?

 

You'd be an absolute blast to hang out in a museum with. :) I'd really enjoy it I think.