Thoughts about co-ops and SOFs

[Avila]

Right. This is the point. You find a group called "knitting blankets for babies in the NICU." You think "great, this is what I've been looking for!" But, you show up to the first meeting and are told they don't want you or your blankets because they only use wool and you've been using acrylic.

 

We overlapped because my iPad cut me off in the middle of posting. Lol. :D. Between the ipad cutting me off and auto-correcting me, I am thinking I need to quit posting until I can kick my DD off the normal computer!

Edited July 15, 2011 by Asenik

[WeeBeaks]

For those of you against exclusive groups, I guess I'm hearing here a more general anger that there is exclusion, just because people are against exclusion in any way, shape or form in the homeschooling community. Is that right?

 

Or is it more your kids not have friends to associate with? Or you as moms feel you don't have a circle of homeschooling friends to chat with because all the other families belong to this group and there is no one else left?

[Ester Maria]

A group has a right to be exclusive and to define their membership as they please.

 

The purpose of exclusive groups is not only to ensure that whatever activities are being organized are organized in a way that appreciates the self-proclaimed identitiy of the group and its members, but also to ensure that socializing that happens within those groups (friendships, future loves, future business contacts, etc.) happens in a carefully chosen circle of people you are comfortable with, because connections loosely formed there may expand and eventually turn into something bigger one day. A HUGE part of the reason why people send to exclusive private schools is quite often not only academics, but also future networking, making sure that friendships and first affections are being formed in a circle of as like-minded, like-rich or like-influential people as possible. The co-op dynamic is in many cases similar to the dynamic of exclusive private schools and these are some of the underlying reasons why people want exclusivity in the first place. It is not only that the kid will learn Spanish with other kids - the fact that the kid learns Spanish with other kids may lead to being invited into their lives in other circumstances too, and that may lead to the development of much closer future ties than one would wish or much more serious influences later, as a result of allowing them into the familiar sphere when the kids were fairly small. I was explained this in quite a detail more than once and with time I just learned to accept LOL. Their right, to each their own.

 

You may not like it, but that is the reality of closed societies - as nice as they may present themselves to you on the outside, they want to keep the barrier between "us" and "them" very, very strong. Many people just have zero interests in being inclusive in their lives and want a "bubble" within which to live and raise their kids. It is a mentality, I think, equally difficult to grasp if you are inclusive as is probably an inclusive mindset for those people.

[Murphy101]

Right. This is the point. You find a group called "knitting blankets for babies in the NICU." You think "great, this is what I've been looking for!" But, you show up to the first meeting and are told they don't want you or your blankets because they only use wool and you've been using acrylic.

 

Yes! Well except actually what happened is I showed up and discovered I wasn't really suitable for the group because:

 

I was crocheting. Whatever. Close enough IMO.:tongue_smilie:

I am not over 45 years old.

I am not Protestant.

I am not divorced.

 

I was very uncomfortable and very much not who they expected to show up on a Tuesday morning in the baptist meeting rooms.:D

[Mrs Mungo]

And I would never seek to join that group if I had no interest in knitting baby blankets. Really. But if I DID knit AND I knit baby blankets, I would have a reasonable expectation of being able to join that group.

 

It would be more like me showing up to their group as a knitter who knits baby blankets and then being told I still can't join because they ONLY use wool and I showed up with acrylic in my bag. Even if I was willing to just knit with wool at the meetings, I still couldn't join the group because I own acrylic yarn.

 

Oh, good point, this is a good addition.

 

We overlapped because my iPad cut me off in the middle of posting. Lol. :D

 

I actually had to get off my phone and log on to my computer because my autocorrect kept messing me up, lol.

 

For those of you against exclusive groups, I guess I'm hearing here a more general anger that there is exclusion, just because people are against exclusion in any way, shape or form in the homeschooling community. Is that right?

 

Or is it more your kids not have friends to associate with? Or you as moms feel you don't have a circle of homeschooling friends to chat with because all the other families belong to this group and there is no one else left?

 

Can I explain instead how I think things should work? And how in my experience they do work? Keeping in mind there will *always* be bumps in the road that one must navigate?

 

If people want a Christian group, I think it works well to have an inclusive Christian group without a statement of faith but with a code of conduct. For example, no proselytizing or science and history will be neutral (this can be done, I've done it).

[WeeBeaks]

But these groups are usually the large group in town. The leadership who set up the group are not people I would likely feel supported by. But the other 75% of the group who join because this is the largest group that has the most to offer and who do not usually care about the exclusive SOF? Those are often people who I would like to meet and who I might very well have things in common with and feel supported by. But I likely won't meet too many of them with them involved in a big group with lots of activities and me over here outside of it. Our activities and circles likely won't overlap. There are usually lots of people in those big groups who are in them for the advantage of being in a big group and not because they necessarily want to never meet anyone else who couldn't join that group.

 

Either way, it doesn't matter. My family personally manages just fine either way. But I do feel bad for other families, especially ones new to an area or just starting to homeschool who really could use those opportunities.

 

I see. But any group has to start somewhere, small that is. Those families could start their own group, or you could ... speaking of anyone who doesn't belong to the "big group."

 

I did start my own group locally because I hate to drive. :D So I started a geographical group (area of town). We had maybe 3 families the first week, very small. We are up to probably 5 or 6 families now, many of them new to homeschooling or new to the area ... in other words without a group to start with. That is okay. We have a blast every week even though we are small.

 

If you (general case here) are feeling excluded, it would make sense others in the community are also. So there would seem to be an opening for a determined mom to form a new group with new rules. There have to be some disgruntled people in that big group from what I'm hearing who hate that SOF or lied to join and want something more authentic for their family??

[Mrs Mungo]

Yes! Well except actually what happened is I showed up and discovered I wasn't really suitable for the group because:

 

I was crocheting. Whatever. Close enough IMO.:tongue_smilie:

I am not over 45 years old.

I am not Protestant.

I am not divorced.

 

I was very uncomfortable and very much not who they expected to show up on a Tuesday morning in the baptist meeting rooms.:D

 

Did you continue to attend and adjust their thinking? :) Did they TELL you that you were not welcome back?

[Mrs Mungo]

If you (general case here) are feeling excluded, it would make sense others in the community are also. So there would seem to be an opening for a determined mom to form a new group with new rules. There have to be some disgruntled people in that big group from what I'm hearing who hate that SOF or lied to join and want something more authentic for their family??

 

I know you meant general you, but I can only answer for myself. I volunteer *heavily* within the military community. One year I had over 1200 volunteer hours.

 

I am expected to attend a lot of events because of my dh's job.

 

I move every 2-3 years.

 

I have started groups in the past, and I'm in the process of starting one now. I actually already have about 10 families. But, can you see how exhausting it can be to start a new group every time I move? It's better to have something in place where I can just plug in.

[mommaduck]

A group has a right to be exclusive and to define their membership as they please.

 

The purpose of exclusive groups is not only to ensure that whatever activities are being organized are organized in a way that appreciates the self-proclaimed identitiy of the group and its members, but also to ensure that socializing that happens within those groups (friendships, future loves, future business contacts, etc.) happens in a carefully chosen circle of people you are comfortable with, because connections loosely formed there may expand and eventually turn into something bigger one day. A HUGE part of the reason why people send to exclusive private schools is quite often not only academics, but also future networking, making sure that friendships and first affections are being formed in a circle of as like-minded, like-rich or like-influential people as possible. The co-op dynamic is in many cases similar to the dynamic of exclusive private schools and these are some of the underlying reasons why people want exclusivity in the first place. It is not only that the kid will learn Spanish with other kids - the fact that the kid learns Spanish with other kids may lead to being invited into their lives in other circumstances too, and that may lead to the development of much closer future ties than one would wish or much more serious influences later, as a result of allowing them into the familiar sphere when the kids were fairly small. I was explained this in quite a detail more than once and with time I just learned to accept LOL. Their right, to each their own.

 

You may not like it, but that is the reality of closed societies - as nice as they may present themselves to you on the outside, they want to keep the barrier between "us" and "them" very, very strong. Many people just have zero interests in being inclusive in their lives and want a "bubble" within which to live and raise their kids. It is a mentality, I think, equally difficult to grasp if you are inclusive as is probably an inclusive mindset for those people.

 

Ester Maria,

 

I know that Christianity is different than Judaism in many ways, but the best example I can see is this: what if you lived in a community where there was a "Jewish Homeschooling Group" and you went to join only to find out that they are only taking Hasidic Jews? There are no other Jewish or inclusive groups around. You wouldn't wish that the group would be more open? At all?

[*Lulu*]

Yes! Well except actually what happened is I showed up and discovered I wasn't really suitable for the group because:

 

I was crocheting. Whatever. Close enough IMO.:tongue_smilie:

I am not over 45 years old.

I am not Protestant.

I am not divorced.

 

I was very uncomfortable and very much not who they expected to show up on a Tuesday morning in the baptist meeting rooms.:D

 

But did they tell you that knitting was a directive from the Lord and that if you are only crocheting you are not in obedience to His will?

 

Did they explain that knitting baby blankets is only done right if you are also Protestant and divorced?

 

Did they tell you they would pray that your eyes would be opened to the sinfulness of your decision to crochet, stay married, and hold non-Protestant beliefs?

 

Did e-mails circulate, and "accidentally" get forwarded to you, about how you were going to burn in the lake of fire for all eternity until you rejected the false teachings of your age and professed that you were, in fact, 45?

[silliness7]

Thinking out loud here-- I'm only a homeschool mom for a few more weeks before DD goes off to college...but I have been a part of a few co-ops... good and bad in my 12+ years of homeschooling.

 

***

3 circles meet at the park. They are all homeschool families and all love the color yellow--in fact yellow is a VERY important color to them. They decide to get together regularly and pool resources to teach their children-- incorporating the yellow they love so much into all subjects. The group is open to other circle families joining-as long as they love yellow too. Yellow is that important to them.

 

One circle family is very interested in joining but they are not yellow only circles. This family is orange--it has some yellow but it also incorporates red too.

 

A second circle family also wants to join. They do not like yellow--they are purple. They want to join for purely educational reasons--and they don't see how yellow has anything to do with education.

 

The original yellow circles soon find their little group at the center of a major debate. If they do not allow the other colors of circles to join them they will be called 'snobby', 'rude' and 'intolerant'. If they allow the orange circles and the purple circles to join their group then they would be compromising their dedication to yellow and will have to stop the incorporation of yellow in their classes (so they will not offend the other colors). This seems like a 'fair' solution to the orange and purple families... but it is not what brought the original group together.

 

The love of yellow is what brought the group together and their strong desire to have yellow be a part of their whole lives--even in the education of their children...to them, yellow is not something that should be loved in secret.

***

 

I do not see anything wrong with the yellow circles having their own homeschool group even though I am a blue square.

 

 

:iagree: Very cute. :D

[asta]

But did they tell you that knitting was a directive from the Lord and that if you are only crocheting you are not in obedience to His will?

 

Did they explain that knitting baby blankets is only done right if you are also Protestant and divorced?

 

Did they tell you they would pray that your eyes would be opened to the sinfulness of your decision to crochet, stay married, and hold non-Protestant beliefs?

 

Did e-mails circulate, and "accidentally" get forwarded to you, about how you were going to burn in the lake of fire for all eternity until you rejected the false teachings of your age and professed that you were, in fact, 45?

 

Do you live in my community?

 

Or is this a movement? Like the Alice's Restaurant anti-massacre movement....

 

 

a

[Jugglin'5]

Ester Maria,

 

I know that Christianity is different than Judaism in many ways, but the best example I can see is this: what if you lived in a community where there was a "Jewish Homeschooling Group" and you went to join only to find out that they are only taking Hasidic Jews? There are no other Jewish or inclusive groups around. You wouldn't wish that the group would be more open? At all?

 

It is very hard for me to imagine liberal Jews and Hasidic Jews being able to have an educational co-op together. But what do I know? :)

 

I think some of the exclusivity/non-exclusivity questions arise due to the different reasons people have for homeschooling. I am not primarily interested in homeschooling per se, but rather in a specific type of religious and philosophical education for my children. Therefore, when I dedicated much of my time to co-op leadership, it was only natural that our group was somewhat exclusive. We weren't interested in sacrificng our time for vanilla flavored science and history. My kids could get that elsewhere without nearly so much effort on my part.

[WeeBeaks]

I have started groups in the past, and I'm in the process of starting one now. I actually already have about 10 families. But, can you see how exhausting it can be to start a new group every time I move? It's better to have something in place where I can just plug in.

 

Agreed. My group I started is up to probably 6 families (about 7 months old now). I would have rather taken the easier way too, but I didn't see what we needed after trying out a few for fit for my family.

 

But being angry at exclusive groups, or angry that there wasn't what we needed, would not have gotten us a group of friends to hang out with. Instead I had to focus on what I *could* do to get a good fit for us. Changing other people is typically not a very productive way to go, and I don't mean just homeschooling.

 

Question directly to you - you find each move there is not a group for you? Or just sometimes?

[WeeBeaks]

Did e-mails circulate, and "accidentally" get forwarded to you, about how you were going to burn in the lake of fire for all eternity until you rejected the false teachings of your age and professed that you were, in fact, 45?

 

Yowsa. My complaint then wouldn't be that they weren't inclusive but rather they were just nasty, mean people! It's hard to change someone's intrinsic personality. I wouldn't have any desire to associate with them. :D

[Murphy101]

Did you continue to attend and adjust their thinking? :) Did they TELL you that you were not welcome back?

 

No, I didn't bc I didn't think they were likely to change their minds and bc I was hoping it would be a social opportunity for me to make some new friends, which they didn't seem to be interested in meeting friends like me.

 

What they oh so nicely said was that they were surprised someone like me joined. (:001_huh:) and asked/commented what a shame it was my church didn't have a knitting group for younger mothers in what I viewed as a strong hinting/suggesting manner.

 

Ester Maria,

 

I know that Christianity is different than Judaism in many ways, but the best example I can see is this: what if you lived in a community where there was a "Jewish Homeschooling Group" and you went to join only to find out that they are only taking Hasidic Jews? There are no other Jewish or inclusive groups around. You wouldn't wish that the group would be more open? At all?

 

There is a world of difference between wishing they were more open and being so angry about it that some claim they aren't being kind Jews for it.

 

Do I wish more groups were open to me and met my needs? Sure I do.

Do I think they are unchristian, unkind, or whatever for it? No.

Do I get frustrated? Yes.

Do I get angry? No usually.

[silliness7]

Nothing in the history of the world suggests that exclusive-minded, insular religion adds to the quality of life of people, to community, or to human growth.

 

In fact, exclusive minded religion has, instead, a documentable history of violence, hate, power abuse, judgement, murder, and exclusion.

 

OP wasn't advocating an exclusive-minded insular religion. We're talking about education. Not worship, not evangelism, not YMCA, not neighborhoods, not grocery shopping, not dinner parties, not friendships. I realize that all of these things are "educational" but we're not talking "education-AL". We're talking SCHOOL!

 

For people to whom education is a VERY religious and spiritual endeavor it is PERFECTLY reasonable for parents to carefully monitor the worldview of those who will be seen by their children as an educational authority...books, classes, seminars, websites, etc.

 

That doesn't mean they have no interaction with people who think differently. That doesn't mean they don't expose their children to the different thoughts that are out there. But they do these things when they deem it is most appropriate for the moral and spiritual upbringing for each individual child.

[Mrs Mungo]

Agreed. My group I started is up to probably 6 families (about 7 months old now). I would have rather taken the easier way too, but I didn't see what we needed after trying out a few for fit for my family.

 

But being angry at exclusive groups, or angry that there wasn't what we needed, would not have gotten us a group of friends to hang out with. Instead I had to focus on what I *could* do to get a good fit for us. Changing other people is typically not a very productive way to go, and I don't mean just homeschooling.

 

Question directly to you - you find each move there is not a group for you? Or just sometimes?

 

I don't think anger is the right word to describe how I feel, at all. Frustration is probably the best word.

 

Just sometimes. But, sometimes (like now) it's okay, it's pretty easy. Other times? It is extremely, extremely hard to the point of people putting their kids in really horrible public or terrifically expensive private schools because they couldn't fix their problem.

 

The other problems are like those I described-there will be a great, wonderful inclusive group where we participate and then due to something that happens that has nothing to do with me, we get excluded. It's tiresome.

[MamaSheep]

Thinking out loud here-- I'm only a homeschool mom for a few more weeks before DD goes off to college...but I have been a part of a few co-ops... good and bad in my 12+ years of homeschooling.

 

***

3 circles meet at the park. They are all homeschool families and all love the color yellow--in fact yellow is a VERY important color to them. They decide to get together regularly and pool resources to teach their children-- incorporating the yellow they love so much into all subjects. The group is open to other circle families joining-as long as they love yellow too. Yellow is that important to them.

 

One circle family is very interested in joining but they are not yellow only circles. This family is orange--it has some yellow but it also incorporates red too.

 

A second circle family also wants to join. They do not like yellow--they are purple. They want to join for purely educational reasons--and they don't see how yellow has anything to do with education.

 

The original yellow circles soon find their little group at the center of a major debate. If they do not allow the other colors of circles to join them they will be called 'snobby', 'rude' and 'intolerant'. If they allow the orange circles and the purple circles to join their group then they would be compromising their dedication to yellow and will have to stop the incorporation of yellow in their classes (so they will not offend the other colors). This seems like a 'fair' solution to the orange and purple families... but it is not what brought the original group together.

 

The love of yellow is what brought the group together and their strong desire to have yellow be a part of their whole lives--even in the education of their children...to them, yellow is not something that should be loved in secret.

***

 

I do not see anything wrong with the yellow circles having their own homeschool group even though I am a blue square.

 

I haven't read all the responses, but I'm with you.

 

As a green triangle I might not like that the yellow circles prefer not to have me around, and I might resent them enforcing their preference at the expense of my preference. But does that mean that they should be forced to do things my way at the expense of their own preference just because I want it that way? Of course I think my way (a mixed color palette) is the "best" way. But they think their way is the "best" way too. Isn't me stomping on them just as rude as them stomping on me? I don't have to think they're "right" in order to think they have a right to think that way.

 

ETA: I can also appreciate the yellows-only point of view. I love my autism group because I can go there and say anything I want and know that the other people there can "see" where I'm coming from.I don't have to edit and I don't have to explain. When I say "fingerpainting" they know I'm not talking about paint and paper. When I say my son had a fit, they don't think I mean anything so mild as a common temper tantrum. In mixed groups I have to watch what I say because people who don't live with autistic behavior can sometimes find some of it bizarre and disturbing, and they don't always understand the underlying issues or know how far we've come even if we still have a good way left to go. If I want to talk about autism I have to be prepared to give lengthy explanations to people who sometimes will still not "get" it. I can say things at my autism group and the other moms smile and nod and chuckle knowingly. If I say the SAME things in a group with some autism moms and some moms who don't know about autism, even if they're people who adore my kids, I get mixed reactions from understanding, to shock, to utter bafflement, to thinking I'm just kidding. It's just DIFFERENT in a mixed group, and sometimes I NEED that place to let down my guard, and not have to explain ad nauseum, and to know that the other people I'm talking to know whereof I speak because I'm in the same boat.

Edited July 15, 2011 by MamaSheep

[WeeBeaks]

I don't think anger is the right word to describe how I feel, at all. Frustration is probably the best word.

 

 

From what you wrote in this thread, I would have guessed frustration. From what I'm reading some say, it truly seems to be an intense anger, really intense.

 

I'm sorry to hear about groups that let you in and then excluded you though. That sounds awful, and must have really hurt you and your kids.

[MamaSheep]

Nothing in the history of the world suggests that exclusive-minded, insular religion adds to the quality of life of people, to community, or to human growth.

 

In fact, exclusive minded religion has, instead, a documentable history of violence, hate, power abuse, judgement, murder, and exclusion.

 

Interestingly, fanatical EXCLUSION OF religion from societies has a similar history.

[Mrs Mungo]

From what you wrote in this thread, I would have guessed frustration. From what I'm reading some say, it truly seems to be an intense anger, really intense.

 

I'm sorry to hear about groups that let you in and then excluded you though. That sounds awful, and must have really hurt you and your kids.

 

The thing is? They didn't *mean* to exclude me. They just didn't realize how diverse the group was and how many people they were going to exclude. The group went from around 200 families down to fewer than 50 (from my understanding, we aren't there any more). But, how do you reconnect and start over when everyone was booted at once? And a lot of the people aren't really "in the know" about how things went down? It's frustrating and ridiculous more than it is hurtful.

[Murphy101]

It's better to have something in place where I can just plug in.

 

I completely understand. Same boat, different reasons here.

 

But it is also part of the problem.

 

Because for MANY years I was the person others plugged into and they drained me dry.

 

Now? I am extremely exclusive in who I let plug into my time.

 

I know some people think I should "just do" whatever to suit their priorities.

I know some people feel excluded by me whenever I don't do that.

 

I really am sorry for they don't agree or understand.

 

But it's just too bad bc just plugging in is what the majority of people want to do. The number of actual planners and doers are often less than 20% of the members in most groups by my very rough and unscientific estimate and those people are going to become selective eventually to preserve their own sanity,

Edited July 15, 2011 by Martha

[Mama Geek]

The whole issue boils down to the fact that there are many interpretations of the bible. The church is not joined as 1 church at this time as was so clearly shown in Asta's post. There are people who call themselves Christian that think the bible says that being in a homosexual relationship is a sin and that should not be accepted in the church. On the other hand, there are churches that ordain openly homosexual pastors. To put these 2 groups of people together is just asking for sparks to fly and this is only 1 issue where there are large disagreements among Christians.

 

If you want to be part of a group that incorporates everyone there is nothing wrong with that. Either find one or start one.

 

If you want something more exclusive that doesn't make you an evil person or group. It doesn't even make you unchristian.

 

Many conservative Christians feel like they can't express their views without getting beat up badly about it. Maybe just maybe they want an environment that they don't have to worry about it.

 

I have said in the past that I think that it is reasonable to know the expectations of the group before you become invested in it. If the group isn't up front about it, it is the individuals responsibility to make sure their aren't going to be any problems. As far as the groups values changing because of a few people, I don't know what to tell you.

[Carol in Cal.]

Interestingly, fanatical EXCLUSION OF religion from societies has a similar history.

 

Good point.

[Carol in Cal.]

HA! Great minds...

 

Indeed!

[*Lulu*]

I just wanted to clarify that I have never been treated to such a nasty e-mail personally by a homeschool group. However, I have known women locally that have been treated this badly, and I know some other women where we used to live who would view "rebuking" someone in that manner as a "christian duty".

 

I am not looking for a homeschool group to provide any instruction, and have been blessed to find myself as part of a very loose group that does occasionally take field trips. Mostly though we just connect and let our kids play while we can enjoy a couple of hours of being with another human who can understand what it feels like to be a homeschooler. That fills the need for our family completely, and I am happy with it. I feel frustrated because I see people being caused pain because they are not the right "shade of yellow", and, as someone who loves Crayola, it seems to be done with an attitude that would sadden their maker.

 

For me maybe it isn't so much about the existence of more exclusive groups, but the spirit in which it is being done.

 

(And while I am not feeling particularly angry today, I do believe that there is a time and a place for righteous anger.)

[Murmer]

Basically the problem is 2 fold...1st The use of a large title that encompasses a large number of different types of people but really is only for a small subset of the large title..IE title is Yellow Circles but they only mean 1 very specific shade of yellow that is determined to be be "best" by those in charge. The solution to this is to very specific in titling the group so as to get as close to the small segment as possible IE Crayola Crayon Yellow Perfectly Circular Circles group.

2nd transparency in what is the small subset that is quick and easy to understand IE a self measurement tool to determine if you are Perfectly circular and matching crayon to determine if the right yellow IMMEDIATELY available before putting yourself out in trying to find if you will fit the groups definition. But there should also be the ability to abide by the Perfectly Circular Crayola Crayon Yellow beliefs but not 100% be perfectly circular as long as your non perfectly circular light yellow enjoying self does not try to change or otherwise influence the group in any way.

I am grateful to be part of a Christian organization that while most there probably believe I am not Christian accept me...at the same time I keep my mouth closed about things that are different from what I know they believe and I made the effort to ensure that I knew what they believed before I attended so as not to say things that contradict their beliefs.

[Jenny in GA]

The difference to me is that the purpose of a knitting group, for example, is to bring people together who like to knit. It really doesn't matter if you knit socks or sweaters, the love of knitting is what the group is there to promote. Someone who doesn't want to knit has no reason to want to join that group.

 

But homeschooling groups, in these cases, don't seem satisfied with having a group based on homeschooling. Having homeschooling in common isn't enough. So they tack on Christian, which is honestly not descriptive enough either, since they get to define who is or isn't Christian for their purposes. It is just harder as a homeschooler because there are often not that many homeschoolers in a given area, and once you divide up like this, people who are excluded from the group are marginalized and don't have the same opportunities that a large group can offer. I can look at their group from the outside as a Christian homeschooler, but I still can't join it. I cannot imagine going to join a knitting group and being told that even though I knit, I don't knit exactly like they do so I need to find another knitting group that fits me better.

 

 

:iagree:

 

Thank you. You summed up exactly what I was thinking.

 

These are homeschooling groups, no? To me it seems strange to start a homeschooling group, then have a homeschooler eager to join, and say to them, "Well, you can't be a part of this group unless you have the same beliefs about the Trinity as we say you have to."

 

Huh?

 

Also, someone mentioned things like CM groups and unschooling groups. Do groups like these normally have a written description of what exactly what "unschooling" means, and require that you sign the statement to be able to meet them in the park? Would an unschooler be told they can't participate because they won't sign a form saying they believe kids can and should be able to watch unlimited amounts of TV?

[Jenny in GA]

It is very hard for me to imagine liberal Jews and Hasidic Jews being able to have an educational co-op together. But what do I know? :)

 

 

 

But are we talking about educational co-ops? I thought we were talking (at least in part) of groups where kids meet together at the park, or go on field trips to behind the scenes at Krispy Kreme.

[WeeBeaks]

Also, someone mentioned things like CM groups and unschooling groups. Do groups like these normally have a written description of what exactly what "unschooling" means, and require that you sign the statement to be able to meet them in the park? Would an unschooler be told they can't participate because they won't sign a form saying they believe kids can and should be able to watch unlimited amounts of TV?

 

Not written down. The "group think" on the topic is made 100% crystal clear to the new member very quickly though. :tongue_smilie: And enforced.

 

Edited to add: In Cali from what I have experienced the charter/no charter, schooling at home/unschooling, attached parenting versus more conventional, and such differences are as explosively controversial as religion-based differences are in other parts of the country.

Edited July 15, 2011 by WeeBeaks

[Avila]

Not written down. The "group think" on the topic is made 100% crystal clear to the new member very quickly though. :tongue_smilie: And enforced.

 

Not every group is a good fit for every family. But you had an opportunity to go, try it out and decide that for yourself. You could walk away or conform, but it was still your choice.

 

I will never understand the exclusion based on belief. Behavior? Sure. If I come in as a Catholic, act disruptive, proselytize and generally act like a PITA, then by all means kick me to the curb. A code of conduct should definitely apply. But to act out of fear that this might happen is a joke. You can (and will) have conduct issues that have nothing to do with belief. You can have an obnoxious family join who can sign the SOF - and they will be given a shot and then dealt with when and if they violate. But the exclusionary SOF judges on belief rather than behavior and that bugs me.

 

Again, these groups can do whatever they like, however they like. They have that right. I just wish they did not dominate the group market.

[WeeBeaks]

Not every group is a good fit for every family. But you had an opportunity to go, try it out and decide that for yourself. You could walk away or conform, but it was still your choice.

 

 

It's not the single person who decides to leave.

 

Here is an example from a friend of mine. She has unschooling tendencies and went to the local unschooling group, where it was explained to her that children are not to be forced to share. Ever. The belief was that you never interfere with the individual rights of the child. If a child does not feel led to share, no sharing is going to happen. Not even in her private home between siblings. She was ejected from that group because she made her two children share with each other.

 

It is made entirely clear to the person in these nonreligious situations that the family is being excluded.

[Mrs Mungo]

It's not the single person who decides to leave.

 

Here is an example from a friend of mine. She has unschooling tendencies and went to the local unschooling group, where it was explained to her that children are not to be forced to share. Ever. The belief was that you never interfere with the individual rights of the child. If a child does not feel led to share, no sharing is going to happen. Not even in her private home between siblings. She was ejected from that group because she made her two children share with each other.

 

It is made entirely clear to the person in these nonreligious situations that the family is being excluded.

 

And the ummm...irony of this did not occur to them?

[Avila]

It's not the single person who decides to leave.

 

Here is an example from a friend of mine. She has unschooling tendencies and went to the local unschooling group, where it was explained to her that children are not to be forced to share. Ever. The belief was that you never interfere with the individual rights of the child. If a child does not feel led to share, no sharing is going to happen. Not even in her private home between siblings. She was ejected from that group because she made her two children share with each other.

 

It is made entirely clear to the person in these nonreligious situations that the family is being excluded.

 

But it still boils down to behavior there. The person went, violated the expected conduct (no matter how strange it may seem) and was ejected for that behavior. If she would have agreed to the no sharing rule around the group, I would bet she could have continued in it, no matter how bizarre it would have been, as long as she kept her mouth shut about what she did when they were not around. They had a code of conduct that she did not share. But they did let her come and find that out.

 

I don't think there is going to be a meeting of the minds on this, and it doesn't really matter to me because I really have no dog in this fight. I won't do SOF groups, so whether they will take me or not is now not relevant to me any more. I still think it is wrong, but oh well. Life isn't fair.

[WeeBeaks]

But it still boils down to behavior there. The person went, violated the expected conduct (no matter how strange it may seem) and was ejected for that behavior. If she would have agreed to the no sharing rule around the group, I would bet she could have continued in it, no matter how bizarre it would have been, as long as she kept her mouth shut about what she did when they were not around. They had a code of conduct that she did not share. But they did let her come and find that out.

 

I'm just curious how this differs from signing a SOF even if you don't believe it? Wouldn't that be the same? Saying you share beliefs but you don't? And just keeping your mouth shut.

 

I guess in a very small town it might be more obvious I suppose that you don't go the same church, but lots of these large groups sound pretty anonymous.

 

Edited: I don't do the SOF groups either. My point is just that other groups may not call it a SOF but do the same thing. It might be mean, but it's their right I suppose. I can understand those of you saying it's frustrating, it's hard, and I wish it weren't so. I just can't agree with saying it is not their right to do so.

[Avila]

I'm just curious how this differs from signing a SOF even if you don't believe it? Wouldn't that be the same? Saying you share beliefs but you don't? And just keeping your mouth shut.

 

I guess in a very small town it might be more obvious I suppose that you don't go the same church, but lots of these large groups sound pretty anonymous.

 

Edited: I don't do the SOF groups either. My point is just that other groups may not call it a SOF but do the same thing. It might be mean, but it's their right I suppose. I can understand those of you saying it's frustrating, it's hard, and I wish it weren't so. I just can't agree with saying it is not their right to do so.

 

Who said anything about signing a SOF you don't believe?

 

You can go to a group without a SOF that is predominantly a different kind of Christian than you and just live and let live. It does not have to be an issue at a park day, field trip, art class ... You can keep your beliefs private, focus on the things you have in common and not violate your beliefs or theirs. I can decide not to participate in their Bible study and still go to the zoo with them.

 

And no one is saying that it isn't their right to have whatever group they want. We are just saying we don't like it. They can have their group and I can not like their group. It works that way.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Asenik

[Jenny in GA]

I'm just curious how this differs from signing a SOF even if you don't believe it? Wouldn't that be the same? Saying you share beliefs but you don't? And just keeping your mouth shut.

 

Edited: I don't do the SOF groups either. My point is just that other groups may not call it a SOF but do the same thing. It might be mean, but it's their right I suppose. I can understand those of you saying it's frustrating, it's hard, and I wish it weren't so. I just can't agree with saying it is not their right to do so.

 

 

To me the example of the unschooling group who said "no forced sharing at our activities" is more like a group that says something like, "No talk of evolution, or debating religion, or whatever, at our activities."

 

If I understand correctly, then is different from requiring a SOF.

 

Deciding "Okay, whatever, I just won't make my kids share when we go to the park with this particular group since it's important to them" is different (I think) than actually signing a piece of paper that says, "I believe it is wrong to force children to share and I never require my own children to share."

[WeeBeaks]

Who said anything about signing a SOF you don't believe?

 

You can go to a group without a SOF that is predominantly a different kind of Christian than you and just live and let live. It does not have to be an issue at a park day, field trip, art class ... You can keep your beliefs private, focus on the things you have in common and not violate your beliefs or theirs.

 

And no one is saying that it isn't their right to have whatever group they want. We are just saying we don't like it. They can have their group and I can not like their group. It works that way.

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you then? Are you meaning that the SOF groups you disagree with then are those that don't let you come at all? But couldn't you just nod, sign (or not sign) and keep your mouth shut in those too?

 

I'm seeing them as the same because in both in order to stay you would have to basically lie and say you agree to or are something you are not.

 

I'm not trying to be contentious, just trying to understand what you are saying there. You obviously think they are very different. Just curious why?

[WeeBeaks]

To me the example of the unschooling group who said "no forced sharing at our activities" is more like a group that says something like, "No talk of evolution, or debating religion, or whatever, at our activities."

 

If I understand correctly, then is different from requiring a SOF.

 

Deciding "Okay, whatever, I just won't make my kids share when we go to the park with this particular group since it's important to them" is different (I think) than actually signing a piece of paper that says, "I believe it is wrong to force children to share and I never require my own children to share."

 

She was expelled from the group for making her kids share in her own home, not at the park. Her belief and thus her practice was different. It wasn't that she forced kids to share at the park. Her kids reported mom made them share. :tongue_smilie: Sorry I apparently wasn't clear before.

[Jenny in GA]

She was expelled from the group for making her kids share in her own home, not at the park. Her belief and thus her practice was different. It wasn't that she forced kids to share at the park. Her kids reported mom made them share. :tongue_smilie: Sorry I apparently wasn't clear before.

 

Huh, well that IS really weird then!

[WeeBeaks]

PS - I can totally see my kids wanting us to join this group. Picturing in my head my kids hearing that *their* moms don't make *them* share with siblings, nor do any type of work they don't feel led to do.

[Avila]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you then? Are you meaning that the SOF groups you disagree with then are those that don't let you come at all? But couldn't you just nod, sign (or not sign) and keep your mouth shut in those too?

 

I'm seeing them as the same because in both in order to stay you would have to basically lie and say you agree to or are something you are not.

 

I'm not trying to be contentious, just trying to understand what you are saying there. You obviously think they are very different. Just curious why?

 

If I have to sign a SOF, then, yes, I would have to lie. I will not do that. Period. The SOF weeds out anyone honest enough to admit that they disagree with something. Even if that issue is minor, considering the big picture.

 

No SOF doesn't involve lying. I was part of a non-SOF Christian group, once upon a time. I knew I was one of the only Catholics. But we could do PE, field trips, art classes just fine. I wasn't lying to them about who I was. It doesn't have to be an issue unless somebody makes it one. They believed one thing, and I believed another. They had their own church(es) to reinforce that belief and actively support it and I had mine. So even though there were things in the group that I didn't like or want to participate in (like their Bible studies or YE science classes), I just didn't do those things. Being willing to not discuss religion at the zoo is no big loss.

 

With no SOF, people can join, participate in the things that they DO have in common, share the things that they feel comfortable sharing, and still be a minority within the group. It is completely different than shutting the door on people from the get go.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Asenik

[Jenny in GA]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you then? Are you meaning that the SOF groups you disagree with then are those that don't let you come at all? But couldn't you just nod, sign (or not sign) and keep your mouth shut in those too?

 

I'm seeing them as the same because in both in order to stay you would have to basically lie and say you agree to or are something you are not.

 

I'm not trying to be contentious, just trying to understand what you are saying there. You obviously think they are very different. Just curious why?

 

 

I'm not the person you're asking, and maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, but I see them differently like this:

 

1) Groups w/ SOF -- Signing that you believe something you clearly don't because otherwise a group of people won't let you attend the park or go to the zoo with them;

 

2) Groups w/o SOF -- Going to the park or zoo with people who may have different beliefs from you, but you still enjoy their company and are able to have conversations with them about a gazillion about things than debating how many books are in the Bible

[WeeBeaks]

If I have to sign a SOF, then, yes, I would have to lie. I will not do that. Period. The SOF weeds out anyone honest enough to admit that they disagree with something. Even if that issue is minor, considering the big picture.

 

No SOF doesn't involve lying. I was part of a non-SOF Christian group, once upon a time. I knew I was one of the only Catholics. But we could do PE, field trips, art classes just fine. I wasn't lying to them about who I was. It doesn't have to be an issue unless somebody makes it one. They believed one thing, and I believed another. They had their own church(es) to reinforce that belief and actively support it and I had mine. So even though there were things in the group that I didn't like or want to participate in (like their Bible studies or YE science classes), I just didn't do those things.

 

With no SOF, people can join, participate in the things that they DO have in common, share the things that they feel comfortable sharing, and still be a minority within the group. It is completely different than shutting the door on people from the get go.

 

Ah, I see where you are coming from now. That makes sense in what you experienced, and I see the difference you are showing.

 

What I was meaning with the local groups in some cases is that they specifically *ask* you if you practice AP (going into details), or unschooling or whatnot. You would have to actively lie to be part of their group rather than just be silent about it. Not all groups obviously but many. So to me it seemed the same as what you were describing.

 

I understand now that some of the Christian groups you experienced you could just be silent and enjoy the friends and stay away from certain topics.

[Miss Marple]

I completely understand. Same boat, different reasons here.

 

But it is also part of the problem.

 

Because for MANY years I was the person others plugged into and they drained me dry.

 

Now? I am extremely exclusive in who I let plug into my time.

 

I know some people think I should "just do" whatever to suit their priorities.

I know some people feel excluded by me whenever I don't do that.

 

I really am sorry for they don't agree or understand.

 

But it's just too bad bc just plugging in is what the majority of people want to do. The number of actual planners and doers are often less than 20% of the members in most groups by my very rough and unscientific estimate and those people are going to become selective eventually to preserve their own sanity,

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: Martha, you are playing my song!:D I got so tired of having to try to accommodate everyone! And did anyone ever offer to help - no, they just criticized.

 

But the thing that I'm seeing is that some homeschoolers feel entitled to the benefits of someone else's hard work. Sorry, but when I get complaints that someone doesn't like the dress code, or the behavior code, or the SOF, or having to help, yada yada yada....well, I think that person is probably not the target audience of the group! She should spend her own free time and make her own group - stay out of mine!:glare: I guarantee that once she has walked in the other moccasins she'll be a lot less critical. It's a thankless job.

 

Okay, I'm still grumpy, but a little less so...is it the heat :001_huh:

 

How I'd love to find a group that offered quality courses (essentially free as we did) and in which I didn't have to do anything other than empty the waste baskets.

[Avila]

Ah, I see where you are coming from now. That makes sense in what you experienced, and I see the difference you are showing.

 

What I was meaning with the local groups in some cases is that they specifically *ask* you if you practice AP (going into details), or unschooling or whatnot. You would have to actively lie to be part of their group rather than just be silent about it. Not all groups obviously but many. So to me it seemed the same as what you were describing.

 

I understand now that some of the Christian groups you experienced you could just be silent and enjoy the friends and stay away from certain topics.

 

Maybe I am splitting hairs, but I won't lie to join a group.

 

I was able to teach preschool at a Baptist church. They asked if I was a Christian, which I am. They gave me a rough outline to teach from, and I agreed to it. I didn't teach Catholic doctrine to my 2 year olds in the class, and we focused on the many things we could and did agree on. It was truly a non-issue. I don't feel like my faith or their faith was compromised by it, and they didn't either or they wouldn't have hired me and renewed my contract.

 

There are cases, from this side of it, where I would be willing to just not openly discuss things that would cause problems in order to gain the benefit of a larger homeschool group. Just like I can have lunch with my liberal Democrat aunt and not bring up politics, I can go to a park day and not talk about religion with my Baptist friends without compromising myself or my beliefs.

 

I don't even mind the SOFs where they say that this is what we believe, and you should know before you join the group but which do not make you sign something saying you agree to it. I can agree to be respectful of their beliefs just fine. And I should be, if I am joining their group.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Asenik

[twoforjoy]

Interestingly, fanatical EXCLUSION OF religion from societies has a similar history.

 

Who's talking about excluding religion from anything? We seem to have a belief in this country that not allowing one religious group to lord their beliefs over everybody else, but instead treating all group equally, is somehow "excluding" religion.

[mcconnellboys]

Don't forget the burnings at the stake, my greatest fear....

[mcconnellboys]

I agree. If an exclusive club is formed and is up front about that exclusivity, I have no problem with it. I do, however, have a problem with a group formed by a number of people and then some of then decide to exclude some of the others....