Top 10 Sea Battles Help Suggestions Needed

[pqr]

We were discussing pivotal naval battles and the youngsters were trying to list the top 10 sea battles.

 

Our list in no particular order

 

Actium,

Jutland,

Salamis,

Lepanto,

Spanish Armada,

Midway,

Quiberon Bay,

Aegospotami,

 

we need help on two more plus any that should not make the cut.

 

We are also working on the top 10 land battles but that list is extensive.

 

(I know that I could just google "top 10" but that violates the rules (of the game), much more fun if one does not peek. I am sure that there would be many different lists that would not all agree).

Edited June 12, 2011 by pqr

[Audrey]

Not a battle, per se, but my dad would have argued that the naval blockade of Cuba during the Cuban missle crisis was a pivotal moment in the Cold War. He often said, "you would never believe how close it came to WWIII."

[Margo out of lurking]

The Battle of Hampton Roads.

 

While it wasn't a "large" battle in terms of size, it was pivotal in the U.S. Civil War, and it had worldwide naval implications as the first battle between two ironclad ships.

[pqr]

Leyte Gulf?

 

We discussed that one but came to the conclusion that had the US lost, had Kurita broken the US lines and got to the landing craft and support vessels, had it been a rout for the Americans the only real result would have been that the war may have been prolonged a few months, this would not have changed the result.

 

Agree….disagree? This is why these educational games are such a hit at home.

 

We are looking for game changers.

[pqr]

We have now added the Battle of Tsushima Straits

 

Hampton Roads is potentially number 10.

 

 

....but them again there is VA Capes

Edited June 12, 2011 by pqr

[Mrs Mungo]

Trafalgar?

[ScoutTN]

Trafalgar?

yes

[pqr]

Trafalgar was one of the first that came to mind.

 

We pulled it from the list because the RN's Channel Fleet had not yet gone into action. Had Nelson lost the RN still had formidable forces that could have faced the French. Further, Napoleon and his Armies were, I believe, in Austria at the time so even two French/Spanish victories would not have been enough to allow for an invasion of the British Isles.

 

Great victory? Yes. Game changing? We decided no but I would love to hear counterpoints.

 

Of course one has to love Nelson's quote on the eve of Trafalgar.

 

 

"England expects that every man will do his duty".

 

 

 

[pqr]

Just found this one and it had me in stitches.

 

A 'politically correct' [PC] version of an imaginary conversation between Vice-Admiral Horatio Nelson and Captain of the Fleet, Thomas Hardy on the eve of Trafalgar 21 Oct 1805.

 

Scene: The Atlantic Ocean, off Trafalgar, south of Cadiz. Admiral Nelson is about to engage the French and Spanish ships:

 

Nelson: 'Order the signal, Hardy.'

Hardy: 'Aye, aye sir.'

Nelson: 'Hold on, that's not what I dictated to Flags. What's the meaning of this?'

Hardy: 'Sorry sir?'

Nelson [reading aloud]: 'England expects every person to do his or her duty, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religious persuasion or disability.' What gobbledegook is this?'

Hardy: 'Admiralty policy, I'm afraid, sir. We're an equal opportunities employer now. We had the devil's own job getting 'England...' past the censors, lest it be considered racist.'

Nelson: 'Gadzooks, Hardy. Hand me my pipe and tobacco.'

Hardy: 'Sorry sir. All naval vessels have now been designated smoke-free working environments.'

Nelson: 'In that case, break open the rum ration. Let us splice the mainbrace to steel the men before battle.'

Hardy: 'The rum ration has been abolished, Admiral. It's part of the Government's policy on binge drinking.'

Nelson: 'Good heavens, Hardy. I suppose we'd better get on with it .............. lay on all sail.'

Hardy: 'I think you'll find that there's a 4 knot speed limit in this stretch of water.'

Nelson: '**** it man! We are on the eve of the greatest sea battle in history. We must advance with all dispatch. Report from the crow's nest please.'

Hardy: 'That won't be possible, sir.'

Nelson: 'Excuse me?'

Hardy: 'Health and Safety have closed the crow's nest, sir. No harness; and they said that rope ladders don't meet regulations. They won't let anyone up there until a proper scaffolding can be erected.'

Nelson: 'Then get me the ship's carpenter without delay, Hardy.'

Hardy: 'He's busy knocking up a wheelchair access to the foredeck, Admiral.'

Nelson: 'Wheelchair access? I've never heard anything so absurd.'

Hardy: 'Health and safety again, sir. We have to provide a barrier-free environment for the differently abled.'

Nelson: 'Differently abled? I've only one arm and one eye and I refuse even to hear mention of the word. I didn't rise to the rank of Admiral by playing the disability card.'

 

Hardy: 'Actually, sir, you did. The Royal Navy is under represented in the areas of visual impairment and limb deficiency.'

Nelson: 'Whatever next? Give me full sail. The salt spray beckons.'

Hardy: 'A couple of problems there too, sir. Health and safety won't let the crew up the rigging without hard hats. And they don't want anyone breathing in too much salt - haven't you seen the adverts?'

Nelson: 'I've never heard such infamy. Break out the cannon and tell the men to stand by to engage the enemy.'

Hardy: 'The men are a bit worried about shooting at anyone, Admiral.'

Nelson: 'What? This is mutiny!'

Hardy: 'It's not that, sir. It's just that they're afraid of being charged with murder if they actually kill anyone. There's a couple of legal-aid lawyers on board, watching everyone like hawks.'

Nelson: 'Then how are we to sink the Frenchies and the Spanish?'

Hardy: 'Actually, sir, we're not.'

Nelson: 'We're not?'

Hardy: 'No, sir. The French and the Spanish are our European partners now. According to the Common Fisheries Policy, we shouldn't even be in this stretch of water. We could get hit with a claim for compensation.'

Nelson: 'But you must hate a Frenchman as you hate the devil.'

Hardy: 'I wouldn't let the ship's diversity co-ordinator hear you saying that sir. You'll be up on disciplinary report.'

Nelson: 'You must consider every man an enemy, who speaks ill of your King.'

Hardy: 'Not any more, sir. We must be inclusive in this multicultural age. Now put on your Kevlar vest; it's the rules. It could save your life'

Nelson: 'Don't tell me - health and safety. Whatever happened to rum, and the lash?'

Hardy: As I explained, sir, rum is off the menu! And there's a total ban on all corporal punishment.'

Nelson: 'Oh dear, In that case............................ kiss me, Hardy.'

[Wendy Inman]

I'll vote for Battle of the Chesapeake also called Battle of the Virginia Capes... mostly because we just went to the Yorktown battlefield yesterday and it's very fresh in my mind.. and fairly important to the Revolutionary War :)

[elizabeth]

We were pleased to attend on behalf of the Starr family, the 68th Anniversary Battle of Midway Commemoration on board the USS Midway Museaum in San Diego. During this event our Great Uncle, Rear Admiral Edward Sauer was honored with 34 other veterans both present and deceased.

His bio is as follows: During the Battle of the Midway, Captain Sauer commanded Destroyer Squadron 6 consisting of USS Balch, USS Benham, USS Conyngham, USS Ellet, and USS Maury. Following attacks on the USS Yorktown and USS Hammonn, the USS Behham rescued 725 of the 2300 survivors from the USS Yorktown and 200 of the USS Hammonn survivors, while the rest of the Squadron formed anti-submarine and anti-aircraft screen around the USS Yorktown to assist in the salvage operation. Later Captain Sauer was awarded the Navy Cross for “extraordinary heroism and distinguished service in the line of his profession as Commander, Task Group SIXTEEN (TG-16), during Naval Combat action on 24 August 1942, in the Solomon Islands. He retired from the Navy in1946 with the rank of Rear Admiral.

 

Midway. For obvious reasons. Yes, this is my family on the maternal side. They are splendid people and for generations served either as Episcopalian priests or the military. DAR ?? Absolutely.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Trafalger

Guadalcanal/Savo Island

Monitor & Virginia

Sinking of the Bismark

Pearl Harbor

[Mrs Mungo]

Trafalgar was one of the first that came to mind.

 

We pulled it from the list because the RN's Channel Fleet had not yet gone into action. Had Nelson lost the RN still had formidable forces that could have faced the French. Further, Napoleon and his Armies were, I believe, in Austria at the time so even two French/Spanish victories would not have been enough to allow for an invasion of the British Isles.

 

Great victory? Yes. Game changing? We decided no but I would love to hear counterpoints.

 

Of course one has to love Nelson's quote on the eve of Trafalgar.

 

 

"England expects that every man will do his duty".

 

 

 

 

 

I guess it depends upon your criteria for important. Trafalgar was important for a few reasons. First, Nelson took a serious departure from traditional naval tactics. As a result, he won the battle without a single British ship lost. Great Britain never again faced a serious challenge by France at sea. It was the naval equivalent of Waterloo.

[pqr]

I guess it depends upon your criteria for important. Trafalgar was important for a few reasons. First, Nelson took a serious departure from traditional naval tactics. As a result, he won the battle without a single British ship lost. Great Britain never again faced a serious challenge by France at sea. It was the naval equivalent of Waterloo.

 

 

No debate but would you say that this is enough to put it in the top 10? We went round and round on this one.

 

Nelson was pretty good at not losing ships while sending the French to the bottom. The Battles of the Nile and copenhagen are two more examples.

 

The problem has now become, not finding enough but limiting the number.

Edited June 13, 2011 by pqr

[Unicorn.]

That is hilarious! Can't wait to share this w/ dh and ds.

[Mrs Mungo]

No debate but would you say that this is enough to put it in the top 10? We went round and round on this one.

 

Nelson was pretty good at not losing ships while sending the French to the bottom. The Battles of the Nile and copenhagen are two more examples.

 

The problem has now become, not finding enough but limiting the number.

 

I think the fact that it was *the* battle that put France completely out of the navy business makes it worthy. :)

[pqr]

I think the fact that it was *the* battle that put France completely out of the navy business makes it worthy. :)

 

 

So....

 

Of the following 10 which gets pulled?

 

Actium,

Jutland,

Salamis,

Lepanto,

Spanish Armada,

Midway,

Quiberon Bay,

Aegospotami,

VA Capes

Tsushima Straits.

 

Runners up:

 

Trafalgar

Hampton Roads

Pearl

Guadacanal

Bismarck

Cuban Blockade

 

 

Battle must be a "game changer" ushering in a substantive change not simply on a tactical level but strategically. Case in point Tsushima not only saw the humiliation of Tsarist Russia but the rise of an Asian poawer and the further entrance of the US into the theater of global diplomacy.

 

The kids are loving this and read the responses with glee.

 

-pqr

Edited June 14, 2011 by pqr

[Jamee]

I'd look up Admiral Yi of Korea too. He is a national Korean naval hero for his defeat of the Japanese. I'm not sure which battle would be the pivotal one though.

 

And yes, Trafalgar should be on your list. Isn't that the sea battle of all sea battles?

[Jamee]

What about Battle of Flamborough Head during the Revolution? THis was John Paul Jones' victory over the Serapis.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

What if I say that WWI unrestricted submarine warfare should be considered a game changing battle of long duration?

 

Maybe you need a top 20.

[Mrs Mungo]

So....

 

Of the following 10 which gets pulled?

 

Actium,

Jutland,

Salamis,

Lepanto,

Spanish Armada,

Midway,

Quiberon Bay,

Aegospotami,

VA Capes

Tsushima Straits.

 

Runners up:

 

Trafalgar

Hampton Roads

Pearl

Guadacanal

Bismarck

Cuban Blockade

 

 

Battle must be a "game changer" ushering in a substantive change not simply on a tactical level but strategically. Case in point Tsushima not only saw the humiliation of Tsarist Russia but the rise of an Asian poawer and the further entrance of the US into the theater of global diplomacy.

 

The kids are loving this and read the responses with glee.

 

-pqr

 

I will have to get back to this later. It's really interesting, I want to discuss it, but I have a really, really busy day ahead. :tongue_smilie:

 

What if I say that WWI unrestricted submarine warfare should be considered a game changing battle of long duration?

 

Maybe you need a top 20.

 

:iagree:Top 20 would make things easier.

 

If we were to include WWI as one long battle, then wouldn't we do the battles for the Atlantic and Pacific as one each, instead of counting Midway on its own? WDYT?

[bugs]

Not sure this will help, but Carnage and Culture by Victor Davis Hanson http://www.amazon.com/Carnage-Culture-Landmark-Battles-Western/dp/0385720386/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308059742&sr=1-1#_ has both land and sea battles that might prove interesting. Looks like the two sea battles mentioned in his book are on your list.

[pqr]

Lists of 20 make this too easy. Part of the fun, with the kids, is having them pare the numbers down to 10 and then justify their choices. It means that in addition to basic history we are working on other skills such as debate.

 

They really get into the spirit over the relative merits of Romans vs Greeks or the swords used by X, Y or z.

 

Good stuff for kids.