While we are on the subject of Christian differences

[wapiti]

I feel a loss not having grown up with it. It's why I'm making the change--for my children.

 

When I was homechurching the draw I felt to tradition and ritual was almost palpable. I wanted to walk into a cathedral and just sit in a pew, basking int he reverence seeping out of the walls. And I had to ask others-do humans in general feel drawn to tradition? To ritual? I mean, I take a shower the same way every day. There are so many things I do every day, the same way. Does that need for well worn paths just speak to the human experience? For myself I had to answer yes. Even Christ participated in Holy days with His apostles. If He did, it must have merit. And I wanted to experience that with other Christians.

 

This was something else I was wondering. It's not necessarily easy to separate the comfort purely as childhood memory vs. comfort from traditions as indications of beliefs (I'm not using "beliefs" correctly here but I'm feeling pretty ill today - thanks for the Catholic threads, LOL; I'm curling up on the couch with my computer all day). However, I think I find the traditions much more comforting now than I did in childhood - maybe something to do with the wisdom of age. Certainly I never noticed much comfort as a child; maybe occasionally as a teenager. So maybe you didn't miss out on as much as you think ;).

[actuary]

Let's remember that not all Protestants think that way. Lutherans and Methodists baptize infants.... but will baptize someone who is older if they weren't when they were younger, usually because they weren't born in to a Christian family. When they baptize when older, they do both the baptism and confirmation at the same time.

 

And Presbyterians (at least PC(USA)) baptize infants :)

[actuary]

Here's an article on the View of Sin in the Early Church for your consideration. I really appreciated, when I read this the first time, how it answered so many questions I had about my evangelical-at-the-time faith. (It's from the Eastern Orthodox viewpoint.)

 

Thanks - off to read now....:)

[Ellesmere]

Household baptism is mentioned. When anything in Scripture happens to a household in Scripture, it always included everyone from the infants to great grandma to the servants. That is also backed up by 2000yrs of practice (including the first few generations of the Church). Scripture + Tradition backed up by History.

Ok, I tried the household baptism/infant idea and since the word "babies" isn't there, I was told it does not at all prove infant baptism. In fact it somehow proves believer's baptism. :confused: But what you said makes sense to me.

 

So since the word "Eucharist" isn't in the Bible that doesn't exist either? Is the word "Communion" actually in the Bible?

Basically, yes. No purgatory. No Eucharist. No Pope. No Rosary.

 

Their communion (or more often referred to as the "Lord's Table") I think, sounds like a totally different thing. For this particular group of churches, grape juice and crackers are given periodically, maybe monthly. It is a memorial to Jesus, a time to remember the Cross and sacrifice. It is usually offered in an evening service, not in the morning, and only to people who have been immersed. There is no Real Presence. Those who have a personal relationship, have been immersed, and are under a local church authority are invited to come and dine.

 

I'm not saying this makes sense. This is just how it was taught. I've only been to Mass three or four times in my life, but I think that your time of "communion" is a completely different experience, as it seems to be a regular part of Mass?

 

I do think having scriptural reasons is a powerful thing, and the good news (for Baptists) is that the overwhelming majority of Catholic belief is deeply rooted in scripture. But it was when I saw the awesome, mind-bending beauty of the authority of the Church that I was truly converted. I cried then, because I felt that for so long I had been deceived--not by any particular anti-Catholic teaching, but just in general. I had been taught wrongly, and it made me so very sad...and angry, too. I had missed so much.

 

I said "no brainwashing" sort of tongue-in-cheek, because I think some of my family/friends think that's the only possible explanation of why I could become Catholic--because I "bought into the lie", or was "sold a bill of goods". It never crosses their minds that I could have actually found truth in the Catholic church!

 

But to answer your question, yes, I was taught Catholicism. We had an excellent DRE who conducted adult classes on various subjects. He was like a Baptist preacher (unlike our priest) and really did PREACH the Catholic faith in a way that was familiar and welcome to me. He used the Bible. And when I asked my many, many questions (all new to me, but probably old and tiring to him) about all the same old objections to the faith, he answered me with unswerving faithfulness--and in love.

 

As to why other denominations were wrong...well, if I was asking the question he would address it, for example the Baptism question (infant vs older). He might point out Catholic teaching and show how it was both Biblical and historical...while my former beliefs were not necessarily in line with that. But there was never any malicious bashing--if that's what you meant.

Thank you. I don't feel like I've heard malicious bashing, either. But I was taught with such an emphasis on what was wrong with not only Catholics, but also Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Methodists, and Lutherans, that I've been a little suspicious, I guess. The attitude of superiority and "Thank God we don't worship Mary" jabs have turned me off. And I just don't want to go to a Catholic church and get smacked with how wrong the other denominations are.

 

I've struggled with the arguments of having a verse to go with everything because I feel like it gets twisted to justify why everyone else is so unbiblical and why we must put babies in a nursery, have services at specific times, only have communion once a month, can't possibly use wine, and would never sing Ave Maria. So much of the Hail Mary is Scripture, right? But somehow, there's a verse to tell me why it's idol worship.

 

:iagree: Once saved, always saved just isn't reality. We are always growing and we always have sin to contend with. Therefore we must always be seeking God and working to repair the damage our sins cause in relationships, both with our fellow man and with our God.

 

Whenever someone decries tradition because it isn't in the bible, I want to ask them why they bother with their bible. There are MANY traditions that predate the bible and certainly if one is going to use a bible and one wants to use the most authentic or oldest version of the bible - then at best - shouldn't they be using a catholic bible? When discussing what tradition is and why it is valued, people should remember that the bible is a prime example of tradition.

 

Ug. Need coffee. I'm not sure any of that made a lick of sense.

 

Enjoy your coffee and come back. That helped me.

 

All of my friends who have the singular view of salvation though still believe in the position of "Jesus, have mercy on me a sinner." The way they've explained it to me is that even though you've been saved, you still are continually seeking to honor God and that we are all sinners. So once you've been saved, your salvation is not at stake, but you should still be confessing your sins, realizing that you are a sinner, repenting, etc. So, they don't stop working on themselves once they get saved. To them, being saved is only the first step.

 

I'm still not sure which view of salvation I have though.

Pretty much the same here. I've been taught salvation is a specific point in time.

[mommaduck]

Ok, I tried the household baptism/infant idea and since the word "babies" isn't there, I was told it does not at all prove infant baptism. In fact it somehow proves believer's baptism. :confused: But what you said makes sense to me.

 

 

 

 

 

If a person's "household" was do be destroyed (by an enemy, by God, etc) it included everyone, including infants and servants. If a person's "household" went somewhere, that included the infants and servants. If a person's "household" was counted for a census, it included the infants and servants. When all the males in a household were circumcised, it meant ALL. So when a household is baptised, it means everyone in that household, not only those that are old enough to understand and make a conscious decision (alas, where would those that are disable or unable to make a conscious decision be left?). And then add that baptism isn't seen as just an act of obedience by the person, but initially as a responsibility of the parent (much like with the Jews and circumcision...however, when an adult would convert to Judaism, they would also be circumcised of their own, but that did not change from having infants circumcised to having only males old enough to choose circumcision).

 

Oh, and the word "trinity" isn't in the Bible amoung other words that Christians use all the time. You can't just look at the English Bible in a vacuum. You have to look at it in context...of the language, of the people, of the culture, of the time (History!), of the concepts, of the practice (Tradition!), etc. Simply because the English word "babies" is not there, does not mean it's excluded from the practice and the concept ;)

Edited May 28, 2011 by mommaduck

[QueenCat]

If a person's "household" was do be destroyed (by an enemy, by God, etc) it included everyone, including infants and servants. If a person's "household" went somewhere, that included the infants and servants. If a person's "household" was counted for a census, it included the infants and servants. When all the males in a household were circumcised, it meant ALL. So when a household is baptised, it means everyone in that household, not only those that are old enough to understand and make a conscious decision (alas, where would those that are disable or unable to make a conscious decision be left?). And then add that baptism isn't seen as just an act of obedience by the person, but initially as a responsibility of the parent (much like with the Jews and circumcision...however, when an adult would convert to Judaism, they would also be circumcised of their own, but that did not change from having infants circumcised to having only males old enough to choose circumcision).

 

Oh, and the word "trinity" isn't in the Bible amoung other words that Christians use all the time. You can't just look at the English Bible in a vacuum. You have to look at it in context...of the language, of the people, of the culture, of the time (History!), of the concepts, of the practice (Tradition!), etc. Simply because the English word "babies" is not there, does not mean it's excluded from the practice and the concept ;)

 

:iagree:100% Well Said!

[Parrothead]

I'm not saying this makes sense. This is just how it was taught. I've only been to Mass three or four times in my life, but I think that your time of "communion" is a completely different experience, as it seems to be a regular part of Mass?

 

 

 

Yes, the Eucharist is offered at every mass which means every single day.

[milovany]

 

Basically, yes. No purgatory. No Eucharist. No Pope. No Rosary.

 

 

No Sunday school or children's church, no church membership, no denominations, no child dedication, no sola scriptura, no Trinity (already mentioned), no "invisible church" (to the exclusion of a visible church), no evangelizing the uninterested, etc. And yet these things are heavily ingrained into much of protestant Christianity -- why? Tradition. Everyone has Tradition, a way of living out the faith. The question is, which Tradition will you follow? Many of us who have converted from protestant denominations have taken a look at the bigger picture, and chosen the ancient Tradition that we see rooted in the New Testament. Many others take a look, and don't make a change. But ancient church or no, everyone has extra-biblical tradition.

 

ETA -- I keep seeing it said that "Eucharist" isn't in the Bible, but in fact it is. The Greek word εὐχάριστος, or eucharisteō, is translated thanks. This is the word the Bible uses in these verses:

 

Luke 22:19-20 --

And he took bread, and gave thanks (εὐχάριστος), and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

 

 

This is a direct correlation between the word eucharisteō and the sacrament called the Eucharist. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what's being said. The word translated "liturgy" is also there.

Edited May 28, 2011 by milovaný

[Just Beachy]

This has been a very intersting thread (as well as many of the other threads regarding Catholic traditions and non-Catholic traditions).

 

I guess I am a bit of an oddity around here since I was raised in the Catholic church and have made the switch to a Protestant church. My mom was a devout Catholic, and her faith and religion were very important to her. Because of her, I was baptized as an infant and confirmed as a young teen. I never realized I had a choice concerning confirmation. I did it because it was what was expected of me. I knew all the answers to all the questions. I could explain the reasons for the sacraments, etc, but the comfort I read so many of you posting about was not there. However, if anyone asked me, "Are you a Christian?" I would respond, "Well, no. I'm a Catholic." After all, that was how my mom had always answered the question. In my mid-late 20s, I left the church.

 

Soon after I met a nice man who happened to be Baptist. We started dating and I started attending church with him. Suddenly, it all clicked. I can't explain it, but I finally was beginning to understand what people meant when they talked about a "personal relationship with Jesus." I began to crave one as well. I was reading my Bible every moment that I could. I was thrilled when I would come across something that I recognized. How did I go to Mass for almost 30 years and never realize those letters that were being read each week were actually from the Bible? Nobody ever told me.

 

In fact, there were many things that were never explained to me -- at least not in the way many of you are explaining them on this board. Many of the misconceptions ya'll have discussed are many of the same beliefs I had about Catholics in general. Why? Because that is what I was taught growing up in Catholic school. We were told that we couldn't pray directly to God and had to pray to a saint to intercede on our behalf. We would not be forgiven if we didn't confess our sins to a priest, etc. It really made fellowship with God seem impossible and unobtainable.

 

Please don't take this as bashing. I'm not. I'm simply telling my experience and offering an explaination as to why some of those misconceptions regarding the Catholic faith are out there. I know many wonderful Christians who happen to attend a Catholic church, and are thriving there. Good for them. It just didn't make sense to me. I guess it is kind of like a kinesthetic learner using a visual curriculum -- if that makes sense. The curriculum is not bad or wrong. It just doesn't suit that learner. (Now, obviously, I am not talking about things that directly contradict God's Word. I'm just talking about all those other things that we tend to get worked up over.)

 

Anyway, thanks for all the links, etc. I have been enjoying them.

 

:) Beachy

[milovany]

Beachy, I really appreciated your post. We are one of the families that converted from an evangelical church to a liturgical one (we are Eastern Orthodox) in the last little while, and I have several children of all ages ranges. They were between 1 and 16 when we became Orthodox. I appreciate your post because I want to heed a caution I'm getting out of your post -- I want to make sure we help our children's faith be real and personal to them, not something we do just because we're Orthodox. The older kids all remember our conversion, understood it, and are enthusiastic about it. Our two youngest, though, who are now 5 and 3, will not remember it, and yet I want it to be real and vibrant for them, too. Again, thank you for your post.

[KristinaBreece]

This has been a very intersting thread (as well as many of the other threads regarding Catholic traditions and non-Catholic traditions).

 

I guess I am a bit of an oddity around here since I was raised in the Catholic church and have made the switch to a Protestant church. My mom was a devout Catholic, and her faith and religion were very important to her. Because of her, I was baptized as an infant and confirmed as a young teen. I never realized I had a choice concerning confirmation. I did it because it was what was expected of me. I knew all the answers to all the questions. I could explain the reasons for the sacraments, etc, but the comfort I read so many of you posting about was not there. However, if anyone asked me, "Are you a Christian?" I would respond, "Well, no. I'm a Catholic." After all, that was how my mom had always answered the question. In my mid-late 20s, I left the church.

 

Soon after I met a nice man who happened to be Baptist. We started dating and I started attending church with him. Suddenly, it all clicked. I can't explain it, but I finally was beginning to understand what people meant when they talked about a "personal relationship with Jesus." I began to crave one as well. I was reading my Bible every moment that I could. I was thrilled when I would come across something that I recognized. How did I go to Mass for almost 30 years and never realize those letters that were being read each week were actually from the Bible? Nobody ever told me.

 

In fact, there were many things that were never explained to me -- at least not in the way many of you are explaining them on this board. Many of the misconceptions ya'll have discussed are many of the same beliefs I had about Catholics in general. Why? Because that is what I was taught growing up in Catholic school. We were told that we couldn't pray directly to God and had to pray to a saint to intercede on our behalf. We would not be forgiven if we didn't confess our sins to a priest, etc. It really made fellowship with God seem impossible and unobtainable.

 

Please don't take this as bashing. I'm not. I'm simply telling my experience and offering an explaination as to why some of those misconceptions regarding the Catholic faith are out there. I know many wonderful Christians who happen to attend a Catholic church, and are thriving there. Good for them. It just didn't make sense to me. I guess it is kind of like a kinesthetic learner using a visual curriculum -- if that makes sense. The curriculum is not bad or wrong. It just doesn't suit that learner. (Now, obviously, I am not talking about things that directly contradict God's Word. I'm just talking about all those other things that we tend to get worked up over.)

 

Anyway, thanks for all the links, etc. I have been enjoying them.

 

:) Beachy

 

Thank you for writing that-- it's how I've felt in many (most) churches that I've attended over the years. I know I'm looking for... more, I guess. I'm just not finding the same fulfillment that others I know do in an evangelical setting. I don't think there's a "wrong" answer-- just different places where different people fit into the body of believers, I guess.

[Parrothead]

This has been a very intersting thread (as well as many of the other threads regarding Catholic traditions and non-Catholic traditions).

 

I guess I am a bit of an oddity around here since I was raised in the Catholic church and have made the switch to a Protestant church. My mom was a devout Catholic, and her faith and religion were very important to her. Because of her, I was baptized as an infant and confirmed as a young teen. I never realized I had a choice concerning confirmation. I did it because it was what was expected of me. I knew all the answers to all the questions. I could explain the reasons for the sacraments, etc, but the comfort I read so many of you posting about was not there. However, if anyone asked me, "Are you a Christian?" I would respond, "Well, no. I'm a Catholic." After all, that was how my mom had always answered the question. In my mid-late 20s, I left the church.

 

Soon after I met a nice man who happened to be Baptist. We started dating and I started attending church with him. Suddenly, it all clicked. I can't explain it, but I finally was beginning to understand what people meant when they talked about a "personal relationship with Jesus." I began to crave one as well. I was reading my Bible every moment that I could. I was thrilled when I would come across something that I recognized. How did I go to Mass for almost 30 years and never realize those letters that were being read each week were actually from the Bible? Nobody ever told me.

 

In fact, there were many things that were never explained to me -- at least not in the way many of you are explaining them on this board. Many of the misconceptions ya'll have discussed are many of the same beliefs I had about Catholics in general. Why? Because that is what I was taught growing up in Catholic school. We were told that we couldn't pray directly to God and had to pray to a saint to intercede on our behalf. We would not be forgiven if we didn't confess our sins to a priest, etc. It really made fellowship with God seem impossible and unobtainable.

 

Please don't take this as bashing. I'm not. I'm simply telling my experience and offering an explaination as to why some of those misconceptions regarding the Catholic faith are out there. I know many wonderful Christians who happen to attend a Catholic church, and are thriving there. Good for them. It just didn't make sense to me. I guess it is kind of like a kinesthetic learner using a visual curriculum -- if that makes sense. The curriculum is not bad or wrong. It just doesn't suit that learner. (Now, obviously, I am not talking about things that directly contradict God's Word. I'm just talking about all those other things that we tend to get worked up over.)

 

Anyway, thanks for all the links, etc. I have been enjoying them.

 

:) Beachy

I'm so sorry. :grouphug:

[WishboneDawn]

Thank you for writing that-- it's how I've felt in many (most) churches that I've attended over the years. I know I'm looking for... more, I guess. I'm just not finding the same fulfillment that others I know do in an evangelical setting. I don't think there's a "wrong" answer-- just different places where different people fit into the body of believers, I guess.

 

:iagree: I've mentioned my baptist friend in a couple of threads and how her attempts to get me into her church likely won't work because I'm not looking for what her church offers. But conversely she's happy there because it offers exactly what she needs. I might take her to my church and it would be an empty experience for her. The mistake we make is in assuming that the things we need in a church are what everyone needs and what's right for us is simply right, period.

[simka2]

Beachy, your story is very similar to my dh's. He though was raised Dutch Reformed, baptised as an infant, he could recite the creeds, had great teachers....but he never "knew" Jesus. :glare: He ended up going to a Baptist basketball camp and was "saved." Then he came home all excited and tried to explain it to his parents, he did not really feel like they understood. Then as a teen he became a part of a Assembly of God mega church. That began the Pentecostal phase...which really was a desire to "experience" or "know" God in a tangible way. Eventually, he went into ministry. Now...we are in the process of converting to EO.

 

I guess it seemed like we were getting the depth and theology in the Dutch Reformed, but not the intimate "soul changing" relationship we longed for. In the Pentecostal circles, we got the intimate relationship and lost the depth. The EO seems to be offering the mix we have so longed for.

[justamouse]

I guess it seemed like we were getting the depth and theology in the Dutch Reformed, but not the intimate "soul changing" relationship we longed for. In the Pentecostal circles, we got the intimate relationship and lost the depth. The EO seems to be offering the mix we have so longed for.

 

I'm telling ya. Sometimes it takes you to post to put words to my thoughts.

 

Beachy:grouphug:. I'm so sorry you were taught like that.

[zaichiki]

So much of the Hail Mary is Scripture, right?

Yep. We're just asking her to pray for us. (But we're quoting scripture when we do it.)

 

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. (Luke 1:28)

Blessed are you among women and blessed is the Fruit of your womb, Jesus. (Luke 1:42)

Holy Mary, Mother of God, (She's the mother of Jesus and He is fully God, therefore she is the Mother of God.)

Pray for us sinners now

And at the hour of our death.

Amen.

 

http://www.chnetwork.org/journals/mary/mary_6.htm

[Ellesmere]

If a person's "household" was do be destroyed (by an enemy, by God, etc) it included everyone, including infants and servants. If a person's "household" went somewhere, that included the infants and servants. If a person's "household" was counted for a census, it included the infants and servants. When all the males in a household were circumcised, it meant ALL. So when a household is baptised, it means everyone in that household, not only those that are old enough to understand and make a conscious decision (alas, where would those that are disable or unable to make a conscious decision be left?). And then add that baptism isn't seen as just an act of obedience by the person, but initially as a responsibility of the parent (much like with the Jews and circumcision...however, when an adult would convert to Judaism, they would also be circumcised of their own, but that did not change from having infants circumcised to having only males old enough to choose circumcision).

 

Oh, and the word "trinity" isn't in the Bible amoung other words that Christians use all the time. You can't just look at the English Bible in a vacuum. You have to look at it in context...of the language, of the people, of the culture, of the time (History!), of the concepts, of the practice (Tradition!), etc. Simply because the English word "babies" is not there, does not mean it's excluded from the practice and the concept ;)

 

Thanks for help on the household thing. FWIW, I'm not sure any of the church leaders would have made that "babies" argument but they definitely will not accept infant baptism.

 

The churches I went to did acknowledge things like "Trinity" not being in the Bible, but they let that slide.

 

Again, I didn't say these things made sense. But it's what was taught, and what drove a lot of my misconceptions about Catholicism. It's been surprisingly easier to unlearn them than it was to learn them, at least.

 

Yes, the Eucharist is offered at every mass which means every single day.

Thank you. I will do more reading about that.

 

 

ETA -- I keep seeing it said that "Eucharist" isn't in the Bible

 

 

My apologies, I wasn't trying to argue that "Eucharist" isn't in the Bible or that it's unbiblical. I've just been explaining some of the things I was taught from a particular group of churches and showing how their interpretation of "personal relationship" leads to thinking that Catholics aren't Christian. They believe you can only have a personal relationship after reaching the age of accountability and you have to have that before you can be baptized, pray, tithe, be a church member, serve, or partake in communion. So you can see why people who are taught this are going to take issue with the Eucharist. If it helps, I don't believe those things ... was just explaining why some people have these ideas and almost automatically feel the need to hand tracts to Catholics.

 

Yep. We're just asking her to pray for us. (But we're quoting scripture when we do it.)

 

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. (Luke 1:28)

Blessed are you among women and blessed is the Fruit of your womb, Jesus. (Luke 1:42)

Holy Mary, Mother of God, (She's the mother of Jesus and He is fully God, therefore she is the Mother of God.)

Pray for us sinners now

And at the hour of our death.

Amen.

 

http://www.chnetwork.org/journals/mary/mary_6.htm

Thank you. That makes sense to me.

[Rose in BC]

I've only skimmed through the posts so I don't know where the conversation has led but, although my answer sounds simplistic, "personal relationship" to me means I have a relationship with Jesus myself. My belief/salvation and relationship with God is not based on my parents or anyone else. That makes it personal.