A question about skin color: any Anthropologists here?

[Heather in Neverland]

So obviously the white vs. black thing has a long, terrible history in America. I have done some limited studies of the slave trade. I know that the slaves in America were considered not as human as a white because of their black skin.

 

What I found interesting was working in an inner city Detroit high school and watching the lighter skinned black students discriminate against the darker skinned black students.

 

Now I am on the other side of the world and it continues:

 

When the adoption agency called to give us the news about our baby, I asked her ethnicity and the agent said "She's Indian. But she's light skinned so it's ok." ???

 

The chinese here are hyper-vigilant about their light skin. They always carry umbrellas to block the sun. They very rarely let their children play outside because they don't want them getting "dark".

 

Every mall or grocery store you go to has "skin-whitening" products or businesses that promise to make your skin lighter.

 

The light-skinned Indians are "better" than the dark-skinned ones.

 

The list goes on and on.

 

So I guess my question is: why "white"? How did it happen, anthropologically speaking, that white skin became "better" than dark skin to the point that we discriminate against dark skin, and those who are dark go to drastic measures to be light?

 

And, conversely, why do so many white people sunbathe, go to tanning beds, get spray tans, etc?

 

This skin color thing has me :001_huh:

[Melissa in Australia]

I think in some cultures like India some castes are lighter in skin tone than others. I think the lower castes have a darker skin.

 

I am having a wild guess and saying that possibly the lighter skins were invaders/conquerors originally, that made themselves a higher caste than the darker skinned natives.

 

Tanning etc. is a fairly recent phenomena. even as little as 100 years ago white women were very careful to keep their skin covered with hats, bonnet, and sun umbrellas, to stop it getting tanned.

[Ravin]

I see two possible threads from which these ideas may come in Malaysia. One is as someone else posted, that lighter skinned people have in the region's history conquered darker skinned ones--the Indo-European invasion of India, and later Greek and Mongol waves result in a pattern of fairer to darker skin both from high to low caste and from North to South on the subcontinent.

 

In both Indian and Chinese culture (and historically in European and Euro-American culture as well as African American culture) fairer skin is linked to being higher class as well because it shows you don't have to be out in the sun doing the hard labor. This maybe got flipped in Euro-American culture thanks to the industrial revolution,where people working long hours in factories and living in crowded urban areas barely saw the sun and tan skin means you have leisure time for sunbathing.

 

In African-American culture, the distinctions in skin color may go partly back to ethnic differences in Africa, but was strongly associated with the kind of work they'd be put to; fairer skin meant a better chance at being a household servant--and frankly being a household servant meant greater likelihood of fairer children. It also increased chances of getting a little education. Darker skinned slaves were more likely to be stuck as field laborers.

 

This doesn't necessarily hold across all cultures though. In Southern Africa, for instance, the San tribes were often considered inferior by Bantu-speaking people who came later to the region, and the San are quite fair skinned, having lived in Southernmost Africa well away from the equator for tens of thousands of years. But iron age farmers tend to see stone age hunter-gatherers as inferior, especially as the had little trouble muscling them out of all the good real estate.

[lmkzbcb]

"I know that the slaves in America were considered not as human as a white because of their black skin."

 

Not just in America. It was prevelant everywhere, as you are experiencing residuals from it now. Have you read any biographies on William Wilberforce (England)? What about ancient Asian history of the extents to which women tried to appear pale, and those who weren't became servants? What about the Arab slave trade of 600 - 1900 ad? Even within historical Africa, Sub-Saharan peoples were not considered as good as their Northern neighbors (they are typically darker skinned).

 

This wikipedia article did a pretty good job of talking about this issue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people

 

BTW, I hate the term "black people" and "white people". If you think about it, it has racial undertones. (the wikipedia article touches on this at the beginning). It makes a distinction between people groups strictly based on their skin color as if that has someting to do with their ethnicity. And as if they are 2 totally different people groups.

If we as Christians truly believe that God created man, then we all came from 1 man and 1 woman. That means there is only 1 race, it is the human race. (and for the atheist, anthropology and genetics agree with this too). If I have to give a distinction in the skin color for description purposes only, I try to use terms like light skinned woman, or dark skinned woman. The only trouble I ran into with someone, was with a Japanese person, who wanted to know the ancestry of the light skinned person. I asked why it was important, and she told me that in general in Japan, Austrailians are considered lazy, but Americans are thought to be hard working. I was stunned, and didnt know what to say. I guess every counrty has some kind of discrimination against another people group. (soapbox time, sorry not trying to derail your thread, just taking the opportunity to vent ;) )

 

So in answer to your question, I have a guess, but not an anthropologist by any means. I have wondered how much technology has played in this. When I think about how one people group overcomes another people group often military technology is the dividing line. For example, usually armies that used horses and elephants overcame armies that used strictly foot soldiers. Or guns over spears.

In addition, people groups that are able to organize themselves into a larger people group with some form of government typically over-power other smaller people groups who function on a tribal level. Once a nation or people group have overcome another group, often times the defeated groups are belittled, sometimes de-humanized, etc. I wonder if it started with something like that and then permeated through history with each successive domination.

 

About tanning, recent developement in America, as in the last 75 years or so. Probably with the advent of smaller, skimpier bathing suits and more leisure time.

 

 

edited: I took so long posting, I reiterated a little what others had already said. Oops.

Edited May 8, 2011 by lmkzbcb

[Michele B]

:bigear:

Fascinating! Very good topic!

[Osmosis Mom]

I think in some cultures like India some castes are lighter in skin tone than others. I think the lower castes have a darker skin.

 

I am having a wild guess and saying that possibly the lighter skins were invaders/conquerors originally, that made themselves a higher caste than the darker skinned natives.

 

Tanning etc. is a fairly recent phenomena. even as little as 100 years ago white women were very careful to keep their skin covered with hats, bonnet, and sun umbrellas, to stop it getting tanned.

 

Interesting. I was thinking it might also have something to do with having to work outdoors in order to survive (getting dark skin) vs. being pampered and having or holding an umbrella/parasol.

[Heather in Neverland]

In both Indian and Chinese culture (and historically in European and Euro-American culture as well as African American culture) fairer skin is linked to being higher class as well because it shows you don't have to be out in the sun doing the hard labor.

 

Ok, this makes a lot of sense and is fascinating to me....

[southcarolinamom]

This is rather off-topic, but I wanted to throw out an interesting observation my daughter had 2 days ago, while riding our local city bus from work to home.

 

A little background: We live in the Southeast. Our particular city has approximately 30% black, 5% Hispanic and the rest white populations.

 

She was one of the first people to get on the bus, and sits on the side of the aisle that is closest to the doors. DD observed that, by the time she made it from our downtown area, to her bus stop 7 miles away, every single passenger that got on the bus after she did sat on the OTHER side of the aisle. And it was full. They were all black. She was the only white person on the bus, and the only person on her aisle. Weird! Self-segregation?! Not sure what to call it. For today, it's just an observation.

[RoughCollie]

I attended integrated civilian schools since 7th grade. The geographical location did not matter -- Montgomery, Atlanta, Louisville, or Boston -- the races self-segregated.

 

When I was in junior and senior high school, the white people sat on one side of the room, the blacks on the other. I attended a civilian junior high in Montgomery the year the public schools were integrated. Often, there were 1-3 rows between the groups that were unoccupied, except for me. I was shocked about this, and that was the only solution at hand. I had attended integrated schools on Air Force bases during K-6 and self-segregation did not occur.

 

When I attended a university, all races self-segregated, except for me. I just sat at cafeteria tables with people of other races, and I met lots of great people that way. I remember the Korean students were particularly surprised when I did that, and very welcoming. If I hadn't met them, I would have never tried asparagus, which is one of my favorite vegetables, nor would I have thought of serving vegetables at breakfast (asparagus and sliced tomatoes).

 

When I taught at a local college, most of my students were black. I had the reputation of being the toughest, most feared, teacher in the school and being the most popular according to student evaluations. I was defended in the hallways heartily by my students when their same-race friends would ask them why they were greeting or talking to that white lady. Meanwhile, there were several white students who tried every trick in the book to get me in trouble (it didn't work) because they were mad that I didn't treat the black students differently from them. The white students, by the way, were from New Jersey, not the South.

 

When I attended law school in Boston, the students self-segregated everywhere except in the class rooms. The percentage of black students was small. I walked into my first contracts class, looked at the 100 students there, and spotted a black lady. I sat next to her because, believe it or not, she was the first black person I'd seen since I had moved to Boston six months earlier, which was a Stranger in a Strange Land experience for me. We became very good friends. Her black friends gave her a very hard time during those three years, because she was friends with me, and I am white. Not only did she tell me this, but I overheard them make nasty comments about the situation several times. She was on the receiving end of pervasive, subtle racism every day. I witnessed it many times.

 

Meanwhile, since I had a Southern accent, many white students assumed that I was racist. They would confide their racist views, and I would set them straight. They also thought I was stupid because of my accent, until they got to know me. It was a strange situation to be in.

 

Back to the topic at hand, when I lived in Atlanta in the 1980s and worked in a professional setting, educated blacks prized the darkest among them. The lighter skinned blacks had too much white blood in them. I guess that has changed now, at least in some places. I don't keep up with changes in how the different people view shade variations in their own races. All I know is that for 15 years, getting a tan was my #1 New Year's resolution, and I never achieved that goal. I would like to be the color of coffee with cream in it -- is that too much to ask? Apparently so.

 

I am glad I am white, and have thought that since I was a kid, because it is a distinct advantage to be so. No one assumes that my achievements are due to charity (affirmative action) instead of merit. No one has ever followed me around in a store to make sure I don't shoplift. No one has ever done any of the daily, pervasive, racist behaviors to me that I have witnessed my friends go through. Racism is not politically correct, but it is alive and well on all sides of the aisle, IMO.

Edited May 8, 2011 by RoughCollie

[Stacy in NJ]

In Central and South America people of Indian or mixed ethnicity are considered "lower class" than folks of Spanish/European (whiter typically) ethnicity.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think that light skin has often indicated that one has more money or a better position that keeps them inside for work rather than working in fields. If you were darker, it indicated that you were doing outside work yourself. That often meant that you were either of the peasant working class or a subsistence farmer who couldn't afford to have workers working for you.

 

For women, it might have indicated that the women were out working in the field rather than "just" supervising things at home. Again, this might have been an indication of lower wealth or class.

 

 

Oddly enough, after a certain point in time in the west, a tan was able to indicate the same life of money and leisure. If you had a tan in the winter, it showed that you had the time and wealth to go somewhere like Florida or Hawaii or Bermuda and lay around by the pool. (The tanning beds and tanning creams are short cuts to the same look.)

 

And being tanned isn't enough. A "farmer's tan" is something to deride because it again shows time spent on outdoor work (fields, construction, etc) while an all over tan shows time spent by the pool.

 

I was thinking about how "suntan lotion" used to be marketed when I was a teen. Ban de Soleil for the San Tropez tan (as if most of the teen girls I knew using it had any idea where San Tropez was). Now I think you'd have to look a bit to even find something marketed as suntan lotion rather than sun screen.

[Tabrett]

As much as people would like to pin it on the slave trade, I think it goes way further back in history.

 

Read Song of Solomon chapter 1. The main female character's skin was very dark and she was asking her lover not to fear her. She says her brothers we're angry at her and made her work outside in her vineyards which cause the sun to scorch her skin.

 

It seem that having fair skin was a status symbol of not having to work- being a higher class person.

 

Kinda the same thing as being fat was considred beautiful because it meant you had lots of food and didn't have to expend energy working. Think-"Cows of Bashan".

[lmkzbcb]

I attended integrated civilian schools since 7th grade. The geographical location did not matter -- Montgomery, Atlanta, Louisville, or Boston -- the races self-segregated.

 

When I was in junior and senior high school, the white people sat on one side of the room, the blacks on the other. I attended a civilian junior high in Montgomery the year the public schools were integrated. Often, there were 1-3 rows between the groups that were unoccupied, except for me. I was shocked about this, and that was the only solution at hand. I had attended integrated schools on Air Force bases during K-6 and self-segregation did not occur.

 

When I attended a university, all races self-segregated, except for me. I just sat at cafeteria tables with people of other races, and I met lots of great people that way. I remember the Korean students were particularly surprised when I did that, and very welcoming. If I hadn't met them, I would have never tried asparagus, which is one of my favorite vegetables, nor would I have thought of serving vegetables at breakfast (asparagus and sliced tomatoes).

 

When I taught at a local college, most of my students were black. I had the reputation of being the toughest, most feared, teacher in the school and being the most popular according to student evaluations. I was defended in the hallways heartily by my students when their same-race friends would ask them why they were greeting or talking to that white lady. Meanwhile, there were several white students who tried every trick in the book to get me in trouble (it didn't work) because they were mad that I didn't treat the black students differently from them. The white students, by the way, were from New Jersey, not the South.

 

When I attended law school in Boston, the students self-segregated everywhere except in the class rooms. The percentage of black students was small. I walked into my first contracts class, looked at the 100 students there, and spotted a black lady. I sat next to her because, believe it or not, she was the first black person I'd seen since I had moved to Boston six months earlier, which was a Stranger in a Strange Land experience for me. We became very good friends. Her black friends gave her a very hard time during those three years, because she was friends with me, and I am white. Not only did she tell me this, but I overheard them make nasty comments about the situation several times. She was on the receiving end of pervasive, subtle racism every day. I witnessed it many times.

 

Meanwhile, since I had a Southern accent, many white students assumed that I was racist. They would confide their racist views, and I would set them straight. They also thought I was stupid because of my accent, until they got to know me. It was a strange situation to be in.

 

Back to the topic at hand, when I lived in Atlanta in the 1980s and worked in a professional setting, educated blacks prized the darkest among them. The lighter skinned blacks had too much white blood in them. I guess that has changed now, at least in some places. I don't keep up with changes in how the different people view shade variations in their own races. All I know is that for 15 years, getting a tan was my #1 New Year's resolution, and I never achieved that goal. I would like to be the color of coffee with cream in it -- is that too much to ask? Apparently so.

 

I am glad I am white, and have thought that since I was a kid, because it is a distinct advantage to be so. No one assumes that my achievements are due to charity (affirmative action) instead of merit. No one has ever followed me around in a store to make sure I don't shoplift. No one has ever done any of the daily, pervasive, racist behaviors to me that I have witnessed my friends go through. Racism is not politically correct, but it is alive and well on all sides of the aisle, IMO.

 

I grew up in the South too. Only when I was in public high school many years after you had gone through it; no one self segregated. I had friends from all spectrums of skin color. There was no separation in classrooms, lunchrooms, sports, or anywhere.

Shortly after I graduated, some people from Chicago flew into the area and started picketing the high school as being racist. They gained National media attention for weeks. Not one person I knew who had lived there all their lives knew who these people were. Slowly but surely anyone who could leave the school and go to private school did. Many moved out of town and went to the county school. The city's population now is nearly cut in half from what it was prior. Over the course of many years, the entire school has become segregated. Those who had organized the picketing (taking credit for it) have now become the leaders in the city government and state house representatives, been quoted as saying they organized the school picketing because they "wanted a school strictly for blacks". In addition they sponsor a local radio program that blatantly advocates "white hatred", as in, the radio talk show host suggested "take matters into our own hands and make sure our white neighbors pay for the sins committed against us." I kid you not, these are exact words.

 

Every time I go back to that town, it just breaks my heart. It was a lovely place to grow up. Now it is full of hatred.

To make matters worse, they are starting to have very serious problems with gangs. I dont think that is related, it could just be along with the rest of the nation, that gangs have increased over all. But it makes it that much more difficult to return to it.

 

Why did I tell all of this? I can't remember my initial point now,but since I have taken the time to write it all out, I'll post and maybe I can remember my point later. Must be mommy brain.

[LAS in LA]

As much as people would like to pin it on the slave trade, I think it goes way further back in history.

 

Read Song of Solomon chapter 1. The main female character's skin was very dark and she was asking her lover not to fear her. She says her brothers we're angry at her and made her work outside in her vineyards which cause the sun to scorch her skin.

 

I agree with the above and would add that racism was mentioned and frowned on even before Solomon. Check out Numbers 12. Moses' sister, Miriam, and brother, Aaron, complain because Moses had married an Ethopian woman. God apparently didn't like this, because "suddenly Miriam became leprous, as white as snow". You want white? Okay, you got it! Happy ending: Moses prays for her and she recovers.

[Julie Smith]

Pick me, Pick me, I have a answer.

 

I have read many books about Human Evolutionary Physiology. When I say "We" I mean the choice of a slight majority of people over the history of human kind.

 

The reason that white skin is prized more highly is the same reason blond hair is prized more highly. A male mating with a female with white skin has a very slightly better chance of producing a child.

 

Way back in early human history men would pick to mate with a woman who they had the most chance of fathering a child with. And over all people with white skin have a harder time hiding emotions - because they blush. So a whiter skinned woman would have a more difficult time being able to successfully lie about having slept around. So the male was more likely to know that any child the woman gave birth to was in fact his. So he would pick that whiter woman to mate with.

 

Also blond hair women where more highly prized, and blond hair didn't? doesn't? occur with the darker skin tones. Woman who have blond hair are more fertile. Simple because blond hair is a mark of youth. So if you naturally have blond hair that means you are likely below age 20? 25? so more likely to be fertile. Sure some woman naturally kept blond hair as they age, but not many it turns brown.

 

Also blue eyes where more prized in a woman since woman with blue eyes can't lie as well as the darker eye colors. When you lie you pupils enlarge slightly. Blue eyes also goes along with lighter skin colors.

 

So for much of human history the men who where more successful at parenting child happened to be those ones that picked white woman, blond hair, blue eyes. They also passed on there preferences to there children.

 

These slight preferences don't make a big difference when you are talking about a generation or two, but when are you having that slight preference measured over the whole of human history then it makes a difference.

 

At least that is what I read. For a time I read everything I could on the subject of human evolutionary physiology. I found it a fascinating topic.

 

I'll even be happy if you tell me what I read is all hog-wash. As long as you can tell me a book that explains it - and that book is available at my library. :)

[southcarolinamom]

I attended integrated civilian schools since 7th grade. The geographical location did not matter -- Montgomery, Atlanta, Louisville, or Boston -- the races self-segregated.

 

When I was in junior and senior high school, the white people sat on one side of the room, the blacks on the other. I attended a civilian junior high in Montgomery the year the public schools were integrated. Often, there were 1-3 rows between the groups that were unoccupied, except for me. I was shocked about this, and that was the only solution at hand. I had attended integrated schools on Air Force bases during K-6 and self-segregation did not occur.

 

When I attended a university, all races self-segregated, except for me. I just sat at cafeteria tables with people of other races, and I met lots of great people that way. I remember the Korean students were particularly surprised when I did that, and very welcoming. If I hadn't met them, I would have never tried asparagus, which is one of my favorite vegetables, nor would I have thought of serving vegetables at breakfast (asparagus and sliced tomatoes).

 

When I taught at a local college, most of my students were black. I had the reputation of being the toughest, most feared, teacher in the school and being the most popular according to student evaluations. I was defended in the hallways heartily by my students when their same-race friends would ask them why they were greeting or talking to that white lady. Meanwhile, there were several white students who tried every trick in the book to get me in trouble (it didn't work) because they were mad that I didn't treat the black students differently from them. The white students, by the way, were from New Jersey, not the South.

 

When I attended law school in Boston, the students self-segregated everywhere except in the class rooms. The percentage of black students was small. I walked into my first contracts class, looked at the 100 students there, and spotted a black lady. I sat next to her because, believe it or not, she was the first black person I'd seen since I had moved to Boston six months earlier, which was a Stranger in a Strange Land experience for me. We became very good friends. Her black friends gave her a very hard time during those three years, because she was friends with me, and I am white. Not only did she tell me this, but I overheard them make nasty comments about the situation several times. She was on the receiving end of pervasive, subtle racism every day. I witnessed it many times.

 

Meanwhile, since I had a Southern accent, many white students assumed that I was racist. They would confide their racist views, and I would set them straight. They also thought I was stupid because of my accent, until they got to know me. It was a strange situation to be in.

 

Back to the topic at hand, when I lived in Atlanta in the 1980s and worked in a professional setting, educated blacks prized the darkest among them. The lighter skinned blacks had too much white blood in them. I guess that has changed now, at least in some places. I don't keep up with changes in how the different people view shade variations in their own races. All I know is that for 15 years, getting a tan was my #1 New Year's resolution, and I never achieved that goal. I would like to be the color of coffee with cream in it -- is that too much to ask? Apparently so.

 

I am glad I am white, and have thought that since I was a kid, because it is a distinct advantage to be so. No one assumes that my achievements are due to charity (affirmative action) instead of merit. No one has ever followed me around in a store to make sure I don't shoplift. No one has ever done any of the daily, pervasive, racist behaviors to me that I have witnessed my friends go through. Racism is not politically correct, but it is alive and well on all sides of the aisle, IMO.

 

This is very interesting! Thanks for sharing it with me.

[Heather in Neverland]

Pick me, Pick me, I have a answer.

 

I have read many books about Human Evolutionary Physiology. When I say "We" I mean the choice of a slight majority of people over the history of human kind.

 

The reason that white skin is prized more highly is the same reason blond hair is prized more highly. A male mating with a female with white skin has a very slightly better chance of producing a child.

 

Way back in early human history men would pick to mate with a woman who they had the most chance of fathering a child with. And over all people with white skin have a harder time hiding emotions - because they blush. So a whiter skinned woman would have a more difficult time being able to successfully lie about having slept around. So the male was more likely to know that any child the woman gave birth to was in fact his. So he would pick that whiter woman to mate with.

 

Also blond hair women where more highly prized, and blond hair didn't? doesn't? occur with the darker skin tones. Woman who have blond hair are more fertile. Simple because blond hair is a mark of youth. So if you naturally have blond hair that means you are likely below age 20? 25? so more likely to be fertile. Sure some woman naturally kept blond hair as they age, but not many it turns brown.

 

Also blue eyes where more prized in a woman since woman with blue eyes can't lie as well as the darker eye colors. When you lie you pupils enlarge slightly. Blue eyes also goes along with lighter skin colors.

 

So for much of human history the men who where more successful at parenting child happened to be those ones that picked white woman, blond hair, blue eyes. They also passed on there preferences to there children.

 

These slight preferences don't make a big difference when you are talking about a generation or two, but when are you having that slight preference measured over the whole of human history then it makes a difference.

 

At least that is what I read. For a time I read everything I could on the subject of human evolutionary physiology. I found it a fascinating topic.

 

I'll even be happy if you tell me what I read is all hog-wash. As long as you can tell me a book that explains it - and that book is available at my library. :)

 

That is absolutely fascinating!!! Any good book suggestions?

[YourFidgetyFriend]

Way back in early human history men would pick to mate with a woman who they had the most chance of fathering a child with. And over all people with white skin have a harder time hiding emotions - because they blush. So a whiter skinned woman would have a more difficult time being able to successfully lie about having slept around. So the male was more likely to know that any child the woman gave birth to was in fact his. So he would pick that whiter woman to mate with.

 

Also blond hair women where more highly prized, and blond hair didn't? doesn't? occur with the darker skin tones. Woman who have blond hair are more fertile. Simple because blond hair is a mark of youth. So if you naturally have blond hair that means you are likely below age 20? 25? so more likely to be fertile. Sure some woman naturally kept blond hair as they age, but not many it turns brown.

 

Also blue eyes where more prized in a woman since woman with blue eyes can't lie as well as the darker eye colors. When you lie you pupils enlarge slightly. Blue eyes also goes along with lighter skin colors.

 

 

I wonder how that correlates to populations where there are few to no people who are white/blonde/blue. When different (white) cultures have permeated those societies, are the original populations merely being influenced by that minority? If so, why doesn't it happen the other way around? I know adults who are just learning that many brunette white women are blondes in their youth.