mom2bee Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) I'm really questioning the validity of PreAlgebra as a full grade/seperate course. I could be wrong in my assumptions because , I never had a book that said "PreAlgebra" that I worked from beginning to end, and I may not rememeber correctly since its been several years since I did this type of work as a course of study. But I've spent some time on various sites and searches looking into PreAlgebra and it just looks like it focuses on a few (the same?) concepts all of which are typically covered in 5th-8th grade Math books... These are the topics I see mostly as "PreAlgebra" Review of Aritmetic, Types of numbers... Fractions, Percents, Decimals Ratio and Proportion Word problems dealing with Distance*Rate=Time Basic equations and Inequalities PEMDAS Graphing* Factoring* *Seems to be excluded from TOC more often than included...* Please, please, please, don't jump down my throat here. If this post upsets you, I'm sorry. You can just ignore it, I understand...But I'm really wondering about the validity of PreAlgebra as an independent course/grade... I'm planning myself an in-depth, long term study of Algebra for later this year, and I'm just wondering if there is any reason that anyone who's done 5th-8th grade math should spend (more than a little) time with "PreAlgebra..." Most Elementary/Beginning/First Year Algebra books I've seen have a couple of chapters/sections for review and they typically focus strictly on Fractions, Signed Numbers and maybe basic equations (ie x+13=4. Find x). So, I know you don't NEED In you're experience have you found that PreAlgebra was required as a seperate course for your students? in the upper grades? If you have a good grasp of these topics from elementary-middle school, is there much need to take PreAlgebra? (P.S. Is anyone else annoyed by the title "PreAlgebra Mathematics"? I mean, based on the common, traditional model of education technically all of Arithmetic is PreAlgebra. Same for "PreCalculus Algebra") Edited March 16, 2011 by mom2bee clarifying I'm talking about for myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiddenJewel Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I found with both my older daughters that they needed a full year pre-algebra course to be ready to handle the concepts in algebra. By a pre-algebra course I mean one that has an emphasis on fractions, decimals, etc. but also covers integers and builds a strong foundation for working with variables throughout the course. I have seen programs that are basic math, fractions, decimals, etc for the majority of the course (much like upper elementary) and then touch briefly on the algebra topics and I do not like that scope and sequence. My dd14 is about 1/2 way through her pre-algebra program and has been working with simple algebraic formulas for several chapters already. It is giving her the foundation in abstract thinking that she needed before tackling algebra. Some students may not need that much foundation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2bee Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 Adding to your list: what about exponents, roots, negative numbers, and absolute value? Or is that algebra? See, it can be confusing. I don't think it matters what anyone calls it. I never had a class or book that was titled Pre-Algebra either. Negative numbers and absolute value are usually in the section about "Different Types of Numbers" (<--It usually has a fancier sounding title than that though...) I don't remember doing Exponents or Roots until Algebra I... However, I have seen them in some 6th-8th grade math books and its probably in some 5th grade also.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koerarmoca Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I do see where you are coming from depending on how well dd does with saxon 8/7 will determine if I feel the need to do more Pre-Algebra type things or if I will spend the summer before 9th doing Pre-Alg. or if I will take the summer and the 1st semester of 9th doing more Pre-Alg. many moons ago in school 8th grade was when math started splitting up more you had options Consumer math (or football math as dh called it :lol:) Geo pre Alg Alg 1 split Alg 1 Where you where placed depended on your 7th grade teachers recommendations. I was in Alg split which meant we did the 1st 1/2 of Alg 1 in 8th and we took the 2nd 1/2 in high school. I liked it because I had a long time to process alg. and I was able to go on to higher maths like Trig, Alg 2 and Calc. Where some of my friends who did Alg 1 seemed to Struggle more with Trig and high maths. I kinda like that way of doing it, I want to really make sure she has the concepts before pushing on high maths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momling Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Pre-Algebra is just a title. You can call it Algebra I if you're TT or Math 8/7 if you're Saxon, or New Elementary Math 1 if you're Singapore or Basic College Math if you're Lial's. But ultimately, pre-algebra has two goals: a review of arithmetic (with a focus on the trickier bits) and a gentle introduction to algebra. If you're confident that your child is competent in their arithmetic (and knows the trickier bits of it -- like negative numbers and such), and you feel that they have a high tolerance for frustration and don't need a gentle introduction to a new subject, then I'd go straight for the algebra. Otherwise, I'd spend some time solidifying their mathematical thinking before approaching algebra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali in OR Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 My bias is toward a rigorous algebra 1 course in 8th grade (formed from my own experience as a student as well as a high school math teacher for 4 years). My dd will finish elementary math at the end of 6th grade. Not sure what we will use for 7th grade, but I will probably call it prealgebra. In our area the schools split algebra 1 into two years in 7th and 8th grade. I'm not crazy about that approach. I wonder if they end up with a watered down experience. But if you want to be able to develop ideas, maybe approach the concept of proving something or showing where formulas come from, I think it works a little better when kids are older. If algebra keeps getting pushed down to younger ages, I think you have to leave out some mathematical rigor and language that most younger kids aren't ready for (I know some are, but in my experience most aren't). "Prealgebra" can be a good year to start approaching harder ideas and gently increase dc's comfort with the language and process of upper math AND also makes sure the elementary foundation is solid. I will be looking at older texts (Dolciani) and the Singapore offerings past primary math for our prealgebra year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skueppers Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I'm planning an in-depth, long term study of Algebra for later this year, and I'm just wondering if there is any reason that anyone who's done 5th-8th grade math should spend (more than a little) time with "PreAlgebra..." Is this for you, or for a student? Because if it's for you, I'm assuming you've already had Algebra. In that case, I'd suggest using the Khan Academy. It's a great way to refresh your memory on everything leading up to Algebra, and on Algebra itself. I do think it's important to be very solid on everything leading up to Algebra before you start Algebra. Whether or not that requires a separate "Prealgebra" course probably depends on the student. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2bee Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 Is this for you, or for a student? Because if it's for you, I'm assuming you've already had Algebra. In that case, I'd suggest using the Khan Academy. It's a great way to refresh your memory on everything leading up to Algebra, and on Algebra itself. I do think it's important to be very solid on everything leading up to Algebra before you start Algebra. Whether or not that requires a separate "Prealgebra" course probably depends on the student. Sorry, this is for me, I meant to clarify that bit. But I've got KhanAcademy (Videos + Site) and well as PatrickJMT (Videos) as some of the pillars of my program. I'm trying to create a database of all the math topics and skills covered in the math materials I own, so that I can easily find any thing I want in math. I still trying to align all the topics properly and debating whether I should go over Geometry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Since I don't know if you're on the general board much, I wanted to make sure you say this post from me. You might enjoy this book. There is also a website that should come up with Google :001_smile:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I do think it's important to be very solid on everything leading up to Algebra before you start Algebra. Whether or not that requires a separate "Prealgebra" course probably depends on the student. :iagree: I liken Pre-Algebra & Algebra to spreading a language course (Spanish I or French I) in middle school (which, for my purposes, I will say is 7th-8th grade) over two years which would be covered in one year in high school (9th). Except that instead of calling them both Algebra (7th & 8th grade courses w/same name), they label the first year as "pre" and the second year without the "pre." When I was in school, the "fast track" (presumably ones who had their basics down pat) kids took pre-algebra in 7th & Algebra in 8th. The "normal" kids took extra time getting the basics down in 7th & 8th and took Algebra in 9th. I don't remember them having 8th grade math labeled "Pre-Algebra." But I could be wrong. I know 7th Pre-Algebra wasn't the same as 8th grade Math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmoe Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I really think pre-algebra is bogus! I've only had one child use a pre-algebra course. And that was my child who freaked out about doing algebra. He ended up moving on to algebra a few months after starting pre-algebra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarlaS Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I'm planning myself an in-depth, long term study of Algebra for later this year, and I'm just wondering if there is any reason that anyone who's done 5th-8th grade math should spend (more than a little) time with "PreAlgebra..." Don't spend more than a little time on it. Just go over every concept to make sure you remember arithmetic as well as you need to, and move on. I don't think I had Pre-Algebra in school either, and I've seen more than a few good 7th grade texts that would prepare you for Algebra 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skueppers Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I'm trying to create a database of all the math topics and skills covered in the math materials I own, so that I can easily find any thing I want in math. I still trying to align all the topics properly and debating whether I should go over Geometry... You are clearly one of those people who likes to plan. The very idea of doing this makes me :blink:. I will be interested to see whether I start feeling more of a need for exact planning as my kids get older. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherri in MI Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I had Prealgebra in 8th grade and that was the first time I liked Math! Whether is was the teacher (he was great!) or the curriculum (I don't remember) or what I don't know. Whether it was necessary I don't know. I moved to another state in March of 8th grade and at my new school sat in the back of an Algebra 1 class with about 2 or 3 other students doing independent Pre-algebra work. The next year they automatically put me in Algebra II. Did fine first semester but bogged down the middle of the year so my parents got me a tutor & that did wonders for me. So I don't recommend skipping Algebra I, but can't really say if Pre-Algebra was necessary. For me it was helpful. Sherri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmrich Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 My son skipped it and went straight to algebra in 7th. My middle daughter will need the pre-algebra course. She is just not ready for algebra. Somewhere I read a rule of thumb about readiness for algebra equating it with having hair under your arms. My daughter has a late birthday and just needs more time to "see" some algebra. I am hoping that the pre-algebra course will give her excellent practice while we wait for her to mature a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2bee Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 You are clearly one of those people who likes to plan. The very idea of doing this makes me :blink:. I will be interested to see whether I start feeling more of a need for exact planning as my kids get older. :). Yeah, I do love a good plan but I really love projects even more :). I've been meaning to brush up on and improve upon my programming/database skills and this seems like as good of an excuse as any. Of course, we all know what happens to even the best laid plans...however, ...I've always hated that "OH! I have some info on this in a book, but I can't find it" feeling. It literally can keep me up at night. I have close to a dozen math and algebra books in my personal library, and I want to do something to organize/sequence the TOC's so that I can find or practice anything I want. When I want. I can't wait. If I want to factor by grouping or if I wan't to practice FOILing, or taking logs, I'll be able too just pull up the exact pg. and refs. in my database and go straight to the pages!!! I'm so excited! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiddenJewel Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I really think it has a lot to with the mental maturity of the student. Some are not ready for an algebraic level of thinking in junior high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 My son is finishing Horizons 6 this year, and I'm definitely looking for a course that constitutes "pre-algebra" in the sense of solidifying the important concepts already learned, and introducing some algebraic thinking without being overwhelming. I really don't want him going straight to algebra as a 7th grader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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