Homeschool Clause in Divorce Decree - pls advise

[eternalknot]

One of the moms in my local homeschooling group was served last week, and theirs will be a mediated divorce. She doesn't qualify for free legal aid, but doesn't feel she can afford to see a lawyer independent of her mediator.

 

Her husband has supported her decision to HS for the past three years and sees benefit to his kids from it, but will likely use HS as a main bargaining chip during negotiations. Our local schools are great, and the kids don't have academic or social issues that would make the transition too difficult. She's accepting 50/50 custody, but will ask for exclusive rights to make all educational descisions. She'd like to keep the status quo, and continue to HS.

 

Anyone BTDT and have insight or experiences to share? Also wondering what, if any, clauses or wording might be helpful to include in her wishlist once they go to mediation -- specific to education, and more specific to the home school option (both now and looking forward to the high school years).

 

She has two kids in elementary (early, late) and a third in middle school.

[hsmom]

Now I went through this and my lawyer stated that even with joint custody the parent with physical custody usually has the last say in things. I had it stated in the papers that my sons education was to be up to me to determine how I wanted to carry it out, whether it be hs or ps. Also that the other parent had rights to see any work, tests etc whenever they asked. The other parent could have a say in it, but I did not have to go with what he said if I believed it was not in the best interest of my son.

 

Also since he has supported her decision this far, it will look really bad on him if all of a sudden he is using it as a negative.

 

Just make sure to have her make her ex husband feel as if he has a say without really having one. Understand?

[Joanne]

One of the moms in my local homeschooling group was served last week, and theirs will be a mediated divorce. She doesn't qualify for free legal aid, but doesn't feel she can afford to see a lawyer independent of her mediator.

 

Her husband has supported her decision to HS for the past three years and sees benefit to his kids from it, but will likely use HS as a main bargaining chip during negotiations. Our local schools are great, and the kids don't have academic or social issues that would make the transition too difficult. She's accepting 50/50 custody, but will ask for exclusive rights to make all educational descisions. She'd like to keep the status quo, and continue to HS.

 

Anyone BTDT and have insight or experiences to share? Also wondering what, if any, clauses or wording might be helpful to include in her wishlist once they go to mediation -- specific to education, and more specific to the home school option (both now and looking forward to the high school years).

 

She has two kids in elementary (early, late) and a third in middle school.

 

I've been through 2 divorce/custody related mediations.

 

I'll be honest; your friend has a "battle" in front of her. Should her stbxh decide to use homeschool/public school, it will be difficult for her to protect homeschooling. Courts and mediators tend to support the normative/mainstream choice when a decision is contentious.

 

When you say "mediated divorce", does that mean the courts will never get involved or is it an attempt to mediate instead of traditional family law?

[Joanne]

Now I went through this and my lawyer stated that even with joint custody the parent with physical custody usually has the last say in things. ?

 

That is not my personal experience or what I've observed in research on the topic.

 

A lot of it is state specific and even specific to the particular judge and attorney dynamic.

[hsmom]

Well this is what my lawyer and his told us during out mediation. Now he did not fight me, he just wanted to feel as if he was part of everything. I got the way better end of it all.

 

Now also I live in a state where they tend to side with the mother. Not sure why. Now if you are proven totally unfit then yet the father usually gets the kids, but for the most part the mother does here.

[Dmmetler]

This is a real problem. A friend of mine lost physical custody in large part because her ex painted it as her being a lazy woman who wanted to continue to stay home and have him support her-HSing was seen as a way to avoid getting a job. In actuality, her DD has an immune system deficiency, and group settings are really, really bad for her-but the fact that it was medically a good idea to HS this child wasn't seen as enough reason to justify HSing in the judge's mind.

[FaithManor]

A 50/50 custody split would probably not work well for homeschooling and this is something that the court, even through mediation, will likely bring up. Many, many 50/50 splits are one week on, one week off. So, during the time that the children are with their father, he'd have to be homeschooling in conjunction with his ex-wife. I haven't seen too many divorces in which the parties are amenable enough to agree on the particulars of homeschooling, when, where, and how it will be done, what curriculum will be used, etc. Additionally, if he is working a full-time job, the court is going to frown quite mightily on his placing the children, if not old enough to stay home alone for an eight hour or longer day, in daycare instead of school, or let them stay home alone during traditional school hours knowing that dad has to arrive home at supper time, cook, and then somehow get everyone through a day's worth of school work in a couple of hours before bed time. In our county, this absolutely would not fly with the guardian ad litem, the friend of the court, the mediators, or the judge.

 

In order to homeschool, the parent with the flexible working schedule, or not working more than a few hours per week, would need to have full custody. Without a lawyer to represent her, it is doubtful that she can navigate this negotiation process and preserve homeschooling and especially when in divorce cases, most court systems go with the mainstream or "norm".

 

Faith

[Joanne]

Well this is what my lawyer and his told us during out mediation. Now he did not fight me, he just wanted to feel as if he was part of everything. I got the way better end of it all.

 

Now also I live in a state where they tend to side with the mother. Not sure why. Now if you are proven totally unfit then yet the father usually gets the kids, but for the most part the mother does here.

 

Most states that I am aware of still grant equal medical, religious, educational "say" in terms of decisions to both parents, even if physical custody isn't shared 50/50. So, even though the mom might "get" the kids, the decisions on medical, educational, religious training, etc are not granted soley to the custodial parent.

[RanchGirl]

I know you mean well, but I really I think you would be better off taking up a collection for her to get real legal advice specific to her situation and your state. She really needs a lawyer on her side! Personally, I would borrow money if necessary, it would be that important to me.

[Trish]

I know you mean well, but I really I think you would be better off taking up a collection for her to get real legal advice specific to her situation and your state. She really needs a lawyer on her side! Personally, I would borrow money if necessary, it would be that important to me.

 

:iagree:

 

I think she can't afford NOT to have a lawyer.

[Joanne]

I know you mean well, but I really I think you would be better off taking up a collection for her to get real legal advice specific to her situation and your state. She really needs a lawyer on her side! Personally, I would borrow money if necessary, it would be that important to me.

 

I agree. Family law is a specialty and protecting a non-mainstream lifestyle choice within the culture of family law is difficult.

 

I fought for continued custody and ultimately gave up homeschooling in order to stop the madness.

[Dobela]

I know you mean well, but I really I think you would be better off taking up a collection for her to get real legal advice specific to her situation and your state. She really needs a lawyer on her side! Personally, I would borrow money if necessary, it would be that important to me.

I absolutely agree with this. If her husband has an attorney that is giving him legal advice, she needs one for herself.

 

She also needs to know how she is going to support herself. If she can't afford an attorney, no way is she going to be able to support herself and the kids while homeschooling. Everyone I know that has been homeschooling and then divorced has really struggled financially - and the ex dh was not ever made to pay child support and support of the nonworking former spouse. And the child support was not enough to cover living expenses.

[amey311]

Most states that I am aware of still grant equal medical, religious, educational "say" in terms of decisions to both parents, even if physical custody isn't shared 50/50. So, even though the mom might "get" the kids, the decisions on medical, educational, religious training, etc are not granted soley to the custodial parent.

 

True.

 

I know a parent who waived alimony as a trade for sole medical and educational decisions. She knew money would talk for her husband, so she offered that as a bargaining chip.

She wasn't homeschooling, but wanted more freedom than she knew she would get if she needed to get her ex-husband's input on every.single.decision.

 

Conversely, I know a friend who has shared everything and has to deal with taking her kids to the dentist (or wherever), finding out the child needs some kind of treatment (like fillings) and have her ex withhold approval for several days ("Are you sure she needs them? I'll have to think about it."). So far he has approved, but there's always a chance he won't, and if he won't approve, then he won't pay his half (that's the limit of his lack of approval - he won't care if the children get the treatment, he just won't pay for it).

[amey311]

Another thing to keep in mind is to go in hoping for the world (aka getting her husband to approve of all her terms) and still having a plan of what you're willing to really negotiate on or what you absolutely will NOT give up.

 

Homeschooling isn't always the MUST HAVE when compared to other things.

 

It will also be good to know the child support guidelines for her state (and if there are alimony guidelines - sometimes there are for a limited time). Then she'd have some idea of the financial terms.

[Mother Superior]

She sould contact Homeschool Legal Advantage. www.homeschoollegaladvantage.com They WILL help in instances of divorce, and membership is free (though donations are accepted).

[OnTheBrink]

In my divorce situation, I have sole custody in all areas of dd's life except her education, where we have joint custody. I agreed to that because EX is 100% supportive of dd being homeschooled and he wanted to have some say in her curriculum. I went with that, but in all honesty, he completely leaves the decisions up to me. I think he just didn't want to be excluded from the educational aspect, esp since he's a college prof. For me, this has worked out very well.

 

Really, though, the bottom line is, what's the norm in her state? We, on this board, regardless of our personal experiences, can't really advise on this with any certainty because none of us are divorce attorneys, and none of us are apprised of the entire situation. I think if your friend is worried that the EX will use home schooling as a bargaining chip, then she needs to arm herself with as much factual information and back up info on her own kids as she can to prove to whomever (judge, mediator) that her kids are being educated just fine, tyvm. It can't hurt to be proactive in defending what they're doing right now. She may not even need to use that info, but being armed with good, solid info is never a bad idea. And, again, in my own experience, judges really don't like to have the children's lives altered more than what's absolutely necessary. One of the first things my attorney told me was to NOT get a job, NOT change how dd is educated, and to change nothing about our lives at all. He said to keep everything as it was because that showed stability.

 

Good luck to her.

[eternalknot]

Also since he has supported her decision this far, it will look really bad on him if all of a sudden he is using it as a negative.

 

Just make sure to have her make her ex husband feel as if he has a say without really having one. Understand?

 

That's what she's hoping for.

 

... and what she's been doing the past few years LOL.

 

Thanks for chiming in with your experience.

[eternalknot]

I'll be honest; your friend has a "battle" in front of her. Should her stbxh decide to use homeschool/public school, it will be difficult for her to protect homeschooling. Courts and mediators tend to support the normative/mainstream choice when a decision is contentious.

 

When you say "mediated divorce", does that mean the courts will never get involved or is it an attempt to mediate instead of traditional family law?

 

HS isn't a hill she's going to die on, but she's also not going to give it up without a decent fight. What you mentioned is her primary concern WRT the kids' education - knowing that it isn't mainstream, and that it is likely to not be ruled upon in her favor (even if she can prove he's been supportive of it to this point).

 

They're hoping to not involve the courts at all, and to attempt to do all negotiations through a (shared) attorney trained in mediation. I advised her to hire her own lawyer so she didn't go in blind. I don't know that he would hire HIS own lawyer because he fancies himself an expert at everything, but this isn't a situation you want to take chances with; I suggested she assume that he has/will have his own attorney.

[Joanne]

HS isn't a hill she's going to die on, but she's also not going to give it up without a decent fight. What you mentioned is her primary concern WRT the kids' education - knowing that it isn't mainstream, and that it is likely to not be ruled upon in her favor (even if she can prove he's been supportive of it to this point).

 

They're hoping to not involve the courts at all, and to attempt to do all negotiations through a (shared) attorney trained in mediation. I advised her to hire her own lawyer so she didn't go in blind. I don't know that he would hire HIS own lawyer because he fancies himself an expert at everything, but this isn't a situation you want to take chances with; I suggested she assume that he has/will have his own attorney.

 

FWIW, our divorce was "mediated" through one attorney and the decree stated "Joanne will continue homeschooling.......". My xh met with the attorney, and after reviewing the proposed decree, signed. It was not expensive and (on the surface), simple.

 

It was after, and when he imposed a separate lawsuit that things became.......crazy.

[eternalknot]

Now also I live in a state where they tend to side with the mother. Not sure why. Now if you are proven totally unfit then yet the father usually gets the kids, but for the most part the mother does here.

 

 

We are in Texas. It's my understanding (from casual conversations with others) that our area is pretty adamant about 50/50. I'm new to the state, and honestly it surprised me; for some reason I thought it'd be more mom-friendly.

[Joanne]

We are in Texas. It's my understanding (from casual conversations with others) that our area is pretty adamant about 50/50. I'm new to the state, and honestly it surprised me; for some reason I thought it'd be more mom-friendly.

 

You know I am in Texas, too, right? IMO, there still tends to me non custodial/custodial living arrangements with 50/50 say in decisions.

[Wendi]

I don't know anyone who's gone through a divorce and continued to homeschool, although obviously it happens. How does the mom support herself AND homeschool? What happens when they're at their dad's house; if he works during the day, how can he homeschool them? It sounds very complicated.

 

And from what I've seen when friends have gone through divorce, custody battles, etc., I think EVERYONE needs a lawyer.

 

Wendi

[eternalknot]

This is a real problem. A friend of mine lost physical custody in large part because her ex painted it as her being a lazy woman who wanted to continue to stay home and have him support her-HSing was seen as a way to avoid getting a job.

 

The spite of some people is heart-breaking, particularly when the most affected party is an innocent child. How horrible for your friend :(

 

My friend is fortunate to have a decent job outside of the home. In home, actually, doing cold call marketing for a company. I'm not sure what she earns, but it's at least something and it seems to be flexible based on how often we see her LOL - she's at all of our events, so for the longest time we didn't think she had an outside job! I wonder if that might help her case.

 

A 50/50 custody split would probably not work well for homeschooling and this is something that the court, even through mediation, will likely bring up. Many, many 50/50 splits are one week on, one week off.

 

 

You gave good food for thought, and I'll be sure to pass it on. Thank you. He's a pilot. I actually met her through him after a trip he and I worked together. We're not close enough of friends that I'd ask this, but I do wonder how 50/50 will work with his chaotic, ever-changing work schedule. I know lots of crewmembers who have been through divorces, but none who have had to take homeschooling into account when determining physical custody. He could conceivably arrange his schedule to meet a week on/week off custody deal, but not reliably. She's hoping he will be open to the idea of her doing the schooling in the morning, and - on his days - transferring the kids once schoolwork is done OR at a specified time, whichever could be agreed upon.

 

Another mom mentioned a local school that meets 2 days per week, and you homeschool the other 3. That might be a workable compromise, especially if she bills it as a private school ...

[eternalknot]

I know you mean well, but I really I think you would be better off taking up a collection for her to get real legal advice specific to her situation and your state. She really needs a lawyer on her side! Personally, I would borrow money if necessary, it would be that important to me.

 

I agree 100%. I think she's in Ostrich mode, maybe taken aback and still working through a panic. Their marriage wasn't perfect, but they were in counseling and - she thought - they were working through things. Being served took her off guard, particularly because he didn't even have the cajones (or decency) to at least give her a head's up.

 

My brothers are lawyers, but family law is pretty far removed from their respective specialties. I've asked both to see if they can find someone to work pro bono or at a reduced rate, or something/anything that might make her more receptive to the idea of seeing an attorney before going into mediation.

 

I actually think she could afford to hire one, she's just thinking about everything she'll have to start paying for on her own and is overwhelmed. I told her she'd never go without health insurance, and this was sort of like parenting insurance -- one of those things you can't afford NOT to have. It's going in one ear, out the other; I keep pushing but I know I'm starting to upset her with it.

 

I'm waiting to hear back from my brothers. I think it's important enough that I'm willing to risk pissing her off by not letting up on this; if my brothers can help, I'll arrange the meeting on her behalf and just not tell her why she's coming over.

[eternalknot]

I fought for continued custody and ultimately gave up homeschooling in order to stop the madness.

 

:grouphug: What a huge PITA. Sorry you had to give that up on those terms.

[eternalknot]

Everyone I know that has been homeschooling and then divorced has really struggled financially - and the ex dh was not ever made to pay child support and support of the nonworking former spouse. And the child support was not enough to cover living expenses.

 

This is her biggest worry, and I think the fuel behind her thinking she can't afford an attorney. In her mind she's already adding up the costs of him moving out and taking his fat paycheck with him. He's not an ogre, and he's always been decent about taking care of the kids from his first marriage, but like you say - even that won't be enough to fully cover living expenses. She's afraid to spend for a lawyer because she fears she'll need the money for necessities, much sooner. She's missing the forest for the trees, and I can only help that once the initial emotions pass -- she realizes that. I'm like a hemorrhoid, on her butt making sure she realizes how necessary a lawyer is. Not even to retain, but just to consult! That's only a few hundred bucks, I called for her!

[eternalknot]

Really, though, the bottom line is, what's the norm in her state?

 

It can't hurt to be proactive in defending what they're doing right now. She may not even need to use that info, but being armed with good, solid info is never a bad idea.

 

And, again, in my own experience, judges really don't like to have the children's lives altered more than what's absolutely necessary. One of the first things my attorney told me was to NOT get a job, NOT change how dd is educated, and to change nothing about our lives at all. He said to keep everything as it was because that showed stability.

 

Good luck to her.

 

Very helpful, and I appreciate your insight.

 

We're in Texas. HS isn't the norm, but it's not super unusual here either. 50/50 is the standard, no strong preference for mothers.

 

Good idea. She's very organized, keeps great records, and runs a pretty rigorous school. It'll help that she's not working around any learning disabilities or psychological issues that a judge might not understand well enough to take into full consideration. Her kids are excellent ambassadors for the success of their homeschooling, thus far.

 

This is most encouraging to hear. His job as a pilot has him in and out of the home on a crazy schedule. She works part-time at home and is definitely the glue (stability) in her kids' lives. HS is a huge part of that.

 

Thanks again for your post.

[eternalknot]

FWIW, our divorce was "mediated" through one attorney and the decree stated "Joanne will continue homeschooling.......". My xh met with the attorney, and after reviewing the proposed decree, signed. It was not expensive and (on the surface), simple.

 

It was after, and when he imposed a separate lawsuit that things became.......crazy.

 

Ugh. This isn't over with the signed, sealed, mediated paperwork??! May I ask - and if I'm prying, please say so - how much time passed between the signed decree and his second lawsuit? Was the second lawsuit based on something else, or was it education specific?

 

You know I am in Texas, too, right? IMO, there still tends to me non custodial/custodial living arrangements with 50/50 say in decisions.

 

IYE, would a judge consider giving sole decision-making rights in one area, exclusive of the others? Sort of like what an earlier poster mentioned, where all things are joint-decision made EXCEPT for educational matters ..?

[eternalknot]

I don't know anyone who's gone through a divorce and continued to homeschool, although obviously it happens. How does the mom support herself AND homeschool? What happens when they're at their dad's house; if he works during the day, how can he homeschool them? It sounds very complicated.

 

And from what I've seen when friends have gone through divorce, custody battles, etc., I think EVERYONE needs a lawyer.

 

Wendi

 

I'm not divorced, but I've been separated for several years. I'm fortunate to have a decent paying, super flexible job ... but what makes HS possible is my family support. I teach on my days home, and my family faciliates the schoolwork on the days I'm at work. My job requires overnight travel.

 

My kids' dad lives 5 hours away, but visits on his days off every other week. I give the kids those days off, except for math and Latin. He'll do math with them, and I just grade the Latin when I get home. We school year-round to make up for those under- or non-schooled days, and still end up over 180 days. We're not required to count days, but I do out of curiosity.

 

It's not ideal, but it works for now. I don't know that it always will, particularly as my kids get older. Right now we're only doing elementary level work, and I'm pretty relaxed as a homeschooler.

 

My friend's husband has a job and work schedule similar to mine. They have no family in the area so even without homeschooling, there will be days when he is traveling for work and the kids will need to be with - presumably, their mother - but someone.

 

Her homeschool is much more rigorous than mine, plus she has a middle-schooler. She's not sure she can do what I'm doing, but hopes that she can convince her husband to let her continue with homeschooling (regardless of whose day it is to have the kids). She'll have the kids on some of his days anyhow, based on his work schedule. She's willing to share 'her' days with him if he's off work, once schooling is done. We were just trying to figure out how to sort of "market" it to him in a way that made him agreeable to keep homeschooling and to protect her legally.

 

I'm worried that he's going to lord this over her head and she'll end up giving up more rights elsewhere (and I suspect he has no real intention of forcing her to give up HS, he just knows it's his trump card and he's going to use it to coerce her to give up rights in other areas - retirement, etc. things in the future that she's not even thinking about right now.) Precisely why she needs an attorney, but ... ::sigh:: ...

[Joanne]

Ugh. This isn't over with the signed, sealed, mediated paperwork??! May I ask - and if I'm prying, please say so - how much time passed between the signed decree and his second lawsuit? Was the second lawsuit based on something else, or was it education specific?

 

 

 

IYE, would a judge consider giving sole decision-making rights in one area, exclusive of the others? Sort of like what an earlier poster mentioned, where all things are joint-decision made EXCEPT for educational matters ..?

 

Question #1: Know that in the case of my xh, we are dealing with a personality disorder and the thinking and behavior that goes with it. The divorce was signed in August of one year and I was served the custody papers (for one of three kids) in June nearly 2 years later. It was custody specific and only became education specific as the custody issues were consistently ruled in my favor.

 

 

IME in Texas, a judge would allow co-parents to decide and agree on decision making that was non standard, but would only rule as such if there were dramatic, egregious reasons to limit the other parent's say. In other words, a judge will rarely override an agreement but will keep the standard possession order (that is what it is called, and it is boiler plate) unless compelling reasons dictate otherwise.

 

If she is near Houston, I do have a referral. I wish I didn't. :glare:

[In2why]

In my prior life I was a legal aid worker in a family law office. So basically that means I have an educated opinion but I am not a lawyer, I don't live in your state, and even if I did, every judge has different criteria and can and often rules based on whatever mood they are in on any given day.

 

With that said......

 

No matter what happens in mediation of even the divorce decree it can change when it comes to the children. Both parents have the right to go back before a judge and ask for any modification they want at any time. They might not always get what they want, but they don't sign away their right to ask ever, unless of course they sign over parental rights for step parent adoption.

 

Home schooling is a tough issue in divorce. Everything is based on best interest of the child, and even though we believe that HSing is in the child's best interest, it isn't always possible to convince a judge. In fact it can be used against the primary parent in custody issues.

 

I also echo the advice that she gets a lawyer. She also needs to make sure she can legally justify her decision to homeschool. All of her paperwork should document the children's progress. It will also help that she isn't asking for extra financial support so that she can homeschool. Alimony is granted less often and for shorter periods of time, and the expectation will be that she become self supporting.