Outlining from textbooks

[Pegasus]

May I ask why this is considered a skill that needs to be learned? I'm not being snarky, I just don't see why anyone would want/need to do this.

 

I somehow managed to get through public school and then B.S. and M.S. degrees without ever outlining material from my textbooks. So, I'm bewildered to read in some other threads that folks feel this is an important skill for their middle graders to be learning.

 

Pegasus

[PeterPan]

I got by without it too, but my dd isn't going to be so lucky. It's just another way to tackle the content. On the particular book we're going to do it with (BJU Life Science), the authors actually INTENDED for you to outline it and set it up that way. It has a lot of content, so it should help her see the flow.

 

We've only done history encyclopedia outlining to this point, and THAT didn't seem very beneficial, bleh. But the science I think will be. Besides, a trusted friend told me to do it, and I'm listening to her. :)

[DianeJM]

I haven't done this, but I'm planning to do a little of it with my ds next year in 7th. My only reason for having him outline from a textbook is so that he can organize the information. I feel like it's an additional way to get the info into the kid. Also, it will be a great help in retrieving info when studying for tests or doing research from the book. So, imo, it's not necessarily an end in itself, but more a means to an end. That's how I see it anyway.

Blessings,

[redsquirrel]

I had to do it in school. Again and again and again...

 

It did come in helpful as I became responsible for writing my own papers. I didn't realize it at the time. No way. It wasn't until I was in college and learned that no one else did it, they couldn't organise their writing for a paper or quickly 'reduce' a chapter in a book. They couldn't see where they needed more support for their own argument.

 

What I really didn't like and now see as NOT helpful was that they threw us into the deep end of the pool in 5th grade. We started out with multi-point outlines and were expected to come up with our own right away. We also had to listen to science and social studies lectures while copying the multi-point outline of the lecture at the same time. That was very stressful.

 

It was the same with diagramming. I learned to diagram in 10 grade but it was BAM! advanced diagramming from the get go.

[Hunter]

My friend and I, in our self-studies, are tackling the topic of organizing large volumes of data, in all our subjects. Not only are we tackling outlines, but also graphing, and classification. Even our map studies are overlapping, a bit.

 

Divide and conquer.

[Mallory]

Did you take notes from your texts?

 

That is really what outlining is about, finding the main ideas and writing them (in your own words) and putting them in a format that is easy to see what is going on in the chapter.

[PeterPan]

I had to do it in school. Again and again and again...

 

It did come in helpful as I became responsible for writing my own papers. I didn't realize it at the time. No way. It wasn't until I was in college and learned that no one else did it, they couldn't organise their writing for a paper or quickly 'reduce' a chapter in a book. They couldn't see where they needed more support for their own argument.

 

What I really didn't like and now see as NOT helpful was that they threw us into the deep end of the pool in 5th grade. We started out with multi-point outlines and were expected to come up with our own right away. We also had to listen to science and social studies lectures while copying the multi-point outline of the lecture at the same time. That was very stressful.

 

It was the same with diagramming. I learned to diagram in 10 grade but it was BAM! advanced diagramming from the get go.

 

Bingo, that's why WTM recommends it, and that's why some publishers like BJU build it into the curriculum. But my friend was saying when she was taught it, the teacher built them up to it. At first the teacher had the students find the main points and the teacher gave the sub points. If you notice, WTM in 5th gr suggests having students find the main points in material to outline. And over the course of the year the teacher added less and had the students provide more, so that by the end they were doing it entirely by themselves.

 

When I asked about this issue on the high school board, they recommended the book "How to Study in College" which goes through tons of different techniques (visualization, outlining, etc.). I think it's good to have lots of tools.

[FaithManor]

I use it for teaching note-taking skills as a basis for getting ready for lectures and research papers. I had several classes in college in which our notebooks were graded...philosophy, music history, and psychology so I want to make sure they are prepared to take highly organized notes.

 

For writing papers, I teach it a little differently. Once they can mentally reduce each chapter, essay, etc. to it's basic concepts, I then teach them to write the main points or those ideas they need to have handy when writing their paper, on note cards with the bibliographic information on the back (blank side). They then organize their note cards by topic. We discuss the order of ideas and how to make the paper flow from one topic to another and then they organize their note cards into piles from first topic to last with each stack clipped together so they don't get separated. I have them write the body of the paper first, giving them a list of transition words and examples of transition sentences in order to help them get from point a. to point b. Then I help them write the introductory paragraph and summary last. I think those two paragraphs are the most difficult part of the writing.

 

But, we start first with outlining skills. I think mastery of this makes essay and research writing more accessible to kids for whom it would not come naturally. I was a natural born writer, very instinctive, and didn't need this much coaching to produce a paper. Churned them out like nothing! Only one of my four has this inate ability so I've had to be dilligent in teaching the skills. However, to keep it from being hum drum, I nearly always let them outline on topics of interest. I don't necessarily always assign it in history or literature.

 

Faith

[Roxy Roller]

For writing papers, I teach it a little differently. Once they can mentally reduce each chapter, essay, etc. to it's basic concepts, I then teach them to write the main points or those ideas they need to have handy when writing their paper, on note cards with the bibliographic information on the back (blank side). They then organize their note cards by topic. We discuss the order of ideas and how to make the paper flow from one topic to another and then they organize their note cards into piles from first topic to last with each stack clipped together so they don't get separated. I have them write the body of the paper first, giving them a list of transition words and examples of transition sentences in order to help them get from point a. to point b. Then I help them write the introductory paragraph and summary last. I think those two paragraphs are the most difficult part of the writing.

Faith

 

I really like this! Do you use a particular book or curriculum for this process?

[PenKase]

In an effort to make sense of all the logic stage information swimming in my head right now (I could almost swear I was dreaming about how to schedule history!), I too was questioning the merits of outlining. All your responses make soooooo much sense to me and have been communicated here so much better that I ever could!! I'll print this out to keep for future reference.

 

FWIW-I too was able to churn out well crafted papers, but I was not taught outlining and I still find it difficult to write decent notes without writing everything down. I practically have the entire WTM rewritten on a notebook because I was afraid to leave anything out!! :blush:

[Corraleno]

I've never outlined books (lots of highlighting & writing in the margins in the books themselves, plus taking notes on index cards and in notebooks), but I've always outlined my notes before writing papers. IOW, I don't outline input, but I always outline output, if that makes sense.

 

My DS is a visual/spatial thinker, so I'm teaching him to use graphic organizers/mind maps instead, and I use an index card system very similar to what FaithManor described. DS writes important facts and concepts on index cards, then we sort them into piles of "related" facts and concepts. Then we connect the piles to other piles with pieces of colored yarn (so it looks basically like a graphic organizer/mind map) so he can (literally) see the connections between the sections. Then he looks for cards in Pile 1 that connect to cards in Pile 2, and cards that connect Pile 2 with 3, etc., and those are the transitions between the two paragraphs (or sections). It fulfills the same functions as an outline, but the visual/hands-on aspect of it works better for DS.

 

Another thing I've occasionally had him do for literature is to stick a post-it on each 2-page spread with a sentence or phrase summarizing the important action/event/idea on those pages. Then when he's done with the chapter, he can put the post-its in order on a piece of paper, and when he's done with the book he has a pretty detailed summary of the story.

 

Jackie

[Capt_Uhura]

Has anyone used the Cornell note taking system? I wonder how well it works in practice?

 

I personally outline for output. It helps me to order my thoughts, see where I have holes in my knowledge. I don't recall outlining the way SWB teaches in WWS. I can see how it illustrates good writing, picking out important details that relates to the topic of the paragraph. And then transitioning to using outlining for your own writing.

 

ALthough, when we watched the NOVA show on Austrolophithicus, (I know that's spelled incorrectly), my notes were pretty much in outline form. Hhhmm.

[1Togo]

Capt Uhura,

 

We use Cornell note taking for lecture notes because it's faster and more flexible than outlining. In many ways, it's outlining without the Roman numerals, etc. Also, Cornell provides a ready-made flashcard. The student folds the paper so only the term, person or event shows and recalls the information. We tried outlining from lectures, but our ds's couldn't keep it all straight if the speaker talked quickly, and they needed a way to easily add information if the speaker backtracked. I also teach outlining, but that is part of the writing skill set.

 

For Cornell, fold your paper with a smaller column on the left than on the right. Put your Roman numeral information on the left side, and the A, B, C, 1, 2, 3 info on the right.

Edited January 5, 2011 by 1Togo

[Corraleno]

I've never used it myself, and DS isn't ready for it (can't write fast enough when watching lectures), but I think it's a great system and plan to have DS try it for lectures when he's a bit older, along with using a LiveScribe pen. I've also thought about trying to set up a word processing template in the Cornell format, so he could type his notes, but that's probably a couple of years off.

 

Jackie

[Stacy in NJ]

Outlining, note taking, highlighting, graphic organizers - they're all just ways to organize information and study. Whatever works for the student.

 

My ds is currently using Apologia Physical Science. He takes organized notes; he doesn't outline. He does outline from the Kingfisher for History, though.

 

Outlining is a way to illustrate the organization of the text/material. I find it really helpful when writing an original piece - not necessarily reading for content or studying.

 

 

 

May I ask why this is considered a skill that needs to be learned? I'm not being snarky, I just don't see why anyone would want/need to do this.

 

I somehow managed to get through public school and then B.S. and M.S. degrees without ever outlining material from my textbooks. So, I'm bewildered to read in some other threads that folks feel this is an important skill for their middle graders to be learning.

 

Pegasus

[1Togo]

Jackie,

 

I also thought about setting up a Cornell template for typing notes. I think you could do this in Word by inserting a table with expanding cells.

 

When one of our sons was in middle school, the school required Cornell notes for every subject -- not just the notes but the summaries at the end of each page. All subjects had organized notebooks with beautiful notes, etc. That is where we learned the system.

Edited January 5, 2011 by 1Togo

[Negin]

May I ask why this is considered a skill that needs to be learned? I'm not being snarky, I just don't see why anyone would want/need to do this.

I somehow managed to get through public school and then B.S. and M.S. degrees without ever outlining material from my textbooks. So, I'm bewildered to read in some other threads that folks feel this is an important skill for their middle graders to be learning.

Pegasus

I feel the same way as you do, or, should I say, felt the same way ... I now realize that my dc need all the help they can get, particularly my dd who tends to be off in her own planet at times ;). I recently got this series for both my dc and so far, so good. Really liking them. Teaches them outlining, as well as a whole bunch of other great stuff. I got mine from Rainbow Resource, however.

 

[Testimony]

May I ask why this is considered a skill that needs to be learned? I'm not being snarky, I just don't see why anyone would want/need to do this.

 

I somehow managed to get through public school and then B.S. and M.S. degrees without ever outlining material from my textbooks. So, I'm bewildered to read in some other threads that folks feel this is an important skill for their middle graders to be learning.

 

Pegasus

 

Outlining may not be for everyone. I know that I heard SWB say that outlining helps you to organize your thoughts and outlining from a text helps you to see how the author organizes his thoughts.

 

I think that a child learning how to put his thoughts down in a logical manner is an excellent tool to have. If a child can identify a main topic and find the supporting evidence in the paragraph, he can better understand what kind of a paragraph it is. A child can see if an author is trying to persuade him a certain way. Picking apart and outlining helps the child see it much clearer.

 

It is just a thought.

 

Blessings in your homeschooling journey!

 

Sincerely,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[mcconnellboys]

I just think it helps with notetaking and organizing one's thoughts. So I guess I'd consider it a study skill....

[katilac]

I've never outlined books (lots of highlighting & writing in the margins in the books themselves, plus taking notes on index cards and in notebooks), but I've always outlined my notes before writing papers. IOW, I don't outline input, but I always outline output, if that makes sense. Jackie

 

That makes perfect sense; that's what I've always done. I actually never heard of outlining input until I read WTM.

 

I think it depends on the natural level of organization the student has. Outlining can certainly be helpful for students who don't 'see' the underlying structure well enough when they just take notes, but can be nothing more than a pointless extra step for students who do.

[Mallory]

lots of highlighting & writing in the margins in the books themselves, plus taking notes on index cards and in notebooks

 

I do feel like this is where outlines are heading. A way to help you figure out what is important and a chance to rewrite it and learn it better.

 

BUT, for me, outlining is a clear set of steps and directions, whereas notetaking and highlighting aren't.

 

So I teach outlining because it is easier then some of the less structured ways of understanding texts.

[LauraQ]

Some people learn on their own, as if they have some innate ability, how to read information-dense sources (such as textbooks, as opposed to novels) carefully, so as to absorb all that information merely by reading. Most people, however, will benefit somewhat from the exercise of outlining, even if they don't *use* outlining later in their education.

 

I think one of the biggest benefits for my dd, for instance, has been to force her to slow down as she reads, to think more carefully in order to sort out the important key words from the filler words, to be more choosey in what she does and doesn't include in her outline (and therefore in what she focuses her limited study time on). Some people are naturally able to pick through the chaff and find the kernels on their own without special training, but some (maybe most?) could use a lot of help and practice in this skill, because it is just that--a skill that can be honed, improved, and learned.