Catholicism, Christianity, Denominations?

[MamaSheep]

Amy, the only reason that I excluded the LDS church is because I studied with Missionaries and spoke with a Bishop at length (whom I LOVE with all my heart and also was my counselor for over 2 years.The man is a true gift and I don't know if I would be alive on this earth w/o him). I feel my faith walk with the LDS church is complete, while many of the of the other faiths talked about here I have no education on and therefore am looking to further that. I have many LDS friends that are very near and dear to my heart and some of the most beautiful women I know today. Please know that I DO NOT in any way have an axe to grind with the LDS church. As with some of the other faiths mentioned in this thread, there are some things I don't agree with, as is the same with the LDS church-at this point in my walk. I do beleive your faith has value and there are many things I love about the LDS church-however, for me at this point it is important to that I seek truth from the perspective of those things I see as "musts", that the Bible is w/o error and that the Trinity is real. As a sister in Christ, please forgive me if I have caused you any hurt by asking that your faith be excluded from this thread.

:grouphug:

[OregonNative]

:grouphug:

Thank you:)

I did add a few other words to my original response and hope that they shed a bit more light if needed-

"Amy, the only reason that I excluded the LDS church is because I studied with Missionaries and spoke with a Bishop at length (whom I LOVE with all my heart and also was my counselor for over 2 years.The man is a true gift and I don't know if I would be alive on this earth w/o him). I feel my faith walk with the LDS church is complete, while many of the of the other faiths talked about here I have no education on and therefore am looking to further that. I have many LDS friends that are very near and dear to my heart and some of the most beautiful women I know today. Please know that I DO NOT in any way have an axe to grind with the LDS church. As with some of the other faiths mentioned in this thread, there are some things I personally have a hard time reconciling with, as is the same with the LDS church-at this point in my walk. I do believe your faith has value and there are many things I love about the LDS church-many things I long for in my search. However, for me at this point it is important too, that I seek truth from the perspective of those things I have seen as requirements if you will, from my upbringing: that the Bible is w/o error and that the Trinity is real. As a sister in Christ, please forgive me if I have caused you any hurt by asking that your faith be excluded from this thread. I do not at all mind if you share your thoughts, opinions etc. in this thread. My only intention was to receive more information based on the things I wanted to include in this part of my walk and things I lack education on. Again, my apologies."

[MamaSheep]

Thank you:)

I did add a few other words to my original response and hope that they shed a bit more light if needed-

 

"Amy, the only reason that I excluded the LDS church is because I studied with Missionaries and spoke with a Bishop at length (whom I LOVE with all my heart and also was my counselor for over 2 years.The man is a true gift and I don't know if I would be alive on this earth w/o him). I feel my faith walk with the LDS church is complete, while many of the of the other faiths talked about here I have no education on and therefore am looking to further that. I have many LDS friends that are very near and dear to my heart and some of the most beautiful women I know today. Please know that I DO NOT in any way have an axe to grind with the LDS church. As with some of the other faiths mentioned in this thread, there are some things I personally have a hard time reconciling with, as is the same with the LDS church-at this point in my walk. I do believe your faith has value and there are many things I love about the LDS church-many things I long for in my search. However, for me at this point it is important too, that I seek truth from the perspective of those things I have seen as requirements if you will, from my upbringing: that the Bible is w/o error and that the Trinity is real. As a sister in Christ, please forgive me if I have caused you any hurt by asking that your faith be excluded from this thread. I do not at all mind if you share your thoughts, opinions etc. in this thread. My only intention was to receive more information based on the things I wanted to include in this part of my walk and things I lack education on. Again, my apologies."

 

I understand. I can't speak for other LDS forum members, or for those of other faiths who are also excluded, but for my own part, my own self, it's all good. We're all at different points in our journeys and I truly do understand that. FWIW, I wrote the longer post above before your response had posted, and it was a response to Simka's comment, not to what you had said, which I hadn't read yet. I wish you all the best in your searching.

[OregonNative]

I understand. I can't speak for other LDS forum members, or for those of other faiths who are also excluded, but for my own part, my own self, it's all good. We're all at different points in our journeys and I truly do understand that. FWIW, I wrote the longer post above before your response had posted, and it was a response to Simka's comment, not to what you had said, which I hadn't read yet. I wish you all the best in your searching.

 

Ack! Were there other Christian faiths I excluded???:001_huh: (As Christian faiths are my focus in this thread)

[i.love.lucy]

Thank you so much for sharing part of your journey! I really love what you say above. I am so thankful that my DH was willing to step in and call on friends during the time I was wanting to convert. He was literally terrified!

It's the only time he has told me in 11 years that I was absolutley not allowed to do something.

 

At the same time, I worry about what I find, when I do find where God is calling me. Let's hypothetically say it was RCC. I can say right now, that he would be strongly opposed and might even think I was being led astray once again. His biggest issues would be: praying to the saints, praying to Mary, the Assumption, Immaculate Conception, Confessing to man, removal of salvation by mortal sin, not Sola Scriptura and purgatory. I also struggle with reconciling these things, but think I would be more open to learning about them to see if I could actually buy into them or if the information presented to validate them was enough for me. HOWEVER, this got me into trouble before and so I worry. Will I once again find something I "think" God is calling me to and emotion or impressionability will win over? Will I then buy blindly into the beliefs and practices? If I talk to a RCC Priest-he will obviously support RCC. If I talk to a Lutheran Pastor-he will inform me about dents in the RCC's Armour. And so on and so on. Everywhere I turn I get biased opinion (not that it's a bad thing) which makes it all the more hard for me to make an educated choice.

:willy_nilly:

<<Gently>> Can I ask where your husband is in all of this? Can you simply follow his lead? My husband is a pillar of strength in this area and has tremendous discernment. I tend to be more emotional and he's more black and white. He can see clearly what I can't see often. But I had to consciously relinquish my control and let him lead me. Of course he would be open to me questioning and searching, but when it comes to seeing me have no idea which way to turn he would step in to help. Can yours do this? Can you talk it through with him?

On the topic of interpreting Scripture the sola scriptura camp is insistent that the Bible should interpret the Bible (not other writings) and that although the Bible is a compilation of separate books written over hundreds of years, in several different genres, by different authors that the Bible is ONE book and tells ONE story...that of God's redemptive work through Christ. Here's an article that explains it in decent layman's terms and contrasting RC, EO, and Arminian thoughts on the subject. The author is Calvinist and obviously will be biased in that direction but it's interesting and informative.

 

http://www.modernreformation.org/default.php?page=articledisplay&var1=ArtRead&var2=1150&var3=main

:iagree:Great article!

[mommaduck]

Ack! Were there other Christian faiths I excluded???:001_huh: (As Christian faiths are my focus in this thread)

Probably the JW's, maybe some Unitarians or Universalists, etc.

[MamaSheep]

Ack! Were there other Christian faiths I excluded???:001_huh:

 

LOL....you mean you were just targeting LDS? Why didn't you just say so...lol. Oh dear me....:lol:

 

Now that is a question I am not sure I want to touch with a 10 foot pole, because in order to answer it we would have to get all definey about what legitimately qualifies as "Christian", and I am not sure I want to go there. Let me put it like this, and hope I don't make anyone mad: There are other faiths who consider themselves Christian, but acknowledge translational and/or transmissional "issues" with the Bible, and/or who view the trinity as consisting of three separate beings in perfect unity of purpose rather than as a single being divided into three expressions (or however you want to word it). Yes. And I don't know if you intended to ask non-Christian forum members not to contribute opinions or observations, or to refrain from asking questions about what they saw in the thead, but some may have read your request in that way.

 

ETA: Ok...re-reading, I find myself wondering...were you intending to limit the "subject matter" of the thread, or the "participants" in the thread?

 

Also ETA: Ok, I also just have to say, for the record, since you evidently were referring specifically to LDS beliefs in your original request--and please don't feel you need to respond, especially on this thread, I just want this to be clear to other people who are less familiar with LDS teachings--that we LDS do NOT believe that it's ok for man to add to scripture. We do, however, believe that it's perfectly acceptable for GOD to do so, should He so choose. OK....shutting up now.

Edited December 30, 2010 by MamaSheep

[OregonNative]

<<Gently>> Can I ask where your husband is in all of this? Can you simply follow his lead? My husband is a pillar of strength in this area and has tremendous discernment. I tend to be more emotional and he's more black and white. He can see clearly what I can't see often. But I had to consciously relinquish my control and let him lead me. Of course he would be open to me questioning and searching, but when it comes to seeing me have no idea which way to turn he would step in to help. Can yours do this? Can you talk it through with him?

 

 

My husband is just like yours and I am just like you!:tongue_smilie: My DH is very open to me questioning and learning and he is extremely helpful. He def. sees I have no idea where to turn:lol: We do talk in length about this and in fact he stopped by this afternoon and we talked for quite a while.

[Sugarfoot]

It's the only time he has told me in 11 years that I was absolutley not allowed to do something.

 

Let's hypothetically say it was RCC. I can say right now, that he would be strongly opposed and might even think I was being led astray once again. His biggest issues would be: praying to the saints, praying to Mary, the Assumption, Immaculate Conception, Confessing to man, removal of salvation by mortal sin, not Sola Scriptura and purgatory. I also struggle with reconciling these things, but think I would be more open to learning about them to see if I could actually buy into them or if the information presented to validate them was enough for me. HOWEVER, this got me into trouble before and so I worry. Will I once again find something I "think" God is calling me to and emotion or impressionability will win over? Will I then buy blindly into the beliefs and practices? If I talk to a RCC Priest-he will obviously support RCC. If I talk to a Lutheran Pastor-he will inform me about dents in the RCC's Armour. And so on and so on. Everywhere I turn I get biased opinion (not that it's a bad thing) which makes it all the more hard for me to make an educated choice.

:willy_nilly:

 

 

Maybe you could just start with the Nicene Creed, which is prayed during every Mass. It's the foundation of "what we believe" in the RC church. Really go through it, praying over each part, reading, discussing...

 

Some of what you said above about your DH's concerns aren't really based on the truth of Catholic teaching.

 

Once you really understand the communion of saints, for example, you'll understand that we don't pray to the saints, we ask them to pray for us.

 

There's a verse in 1 John (I think that's where it is) that talks about "a sin that leads to death." That never made sense to me as a protestant. I remember a whole group of friends in Bible study being confused by it.

 

We confess our sins to God, through his agent on earth. The priest is merely His servant. We believe that Jesus gave this responsibility to His disciples.

 

As for purgatory, I remember studying Revelations as a Protestant and thinking, "Wow, when we get to Heaven, we get a new name and garment." I immediately thought, Where does that happen? If it's before we enter Heaven, but after death, that sounds like the RC version of purgatory, where we're "perfected" for Heaven.

 

It's a process, for sure. I prayed constantly that God would show His truth to BOTH my DH and myself, so that we were united in our beliefs and our children would feel that unity. He did, and His grace increases in abundance day by day.

 

Peace to you.

[asta]

<<Gently>> Can I ask where your husband is in all of this? Can you simply follow his lead? My husband is a pillar of strength in this area and has tremendous discernment. I tend to be more emotional and he's more black and white. He can see clearly what I can't see often. But I had to consciously relinquish my control and let him lead me. Of course he would be open to me questioning and searching, but when it comes to seeing me have no idea which way to turn he would step in to help. Can yours do this? Can you talk it through with him?

 

 

:confused:

 

Why would a person relinquish control of their faith to someone else?

 

I can't even fathom that. To me, faith is just... the most personal thing a person has. To give the right to choose that away... my brain can't even wrap around that concept.

 

Maybe I'm misinterpreting something here.

[Tea Time]

We do all come here imperfect (me too!). I couldn't agree more. And I do sympathize with the OP, and others who share her point of view. And it has been a very interesting thread to read through, even though I am one that has been specifically uninvited from participating in the discussion. I appreciate the insights that have been shared. And I really don't want to derail the discussion at all. I think I would, however, like beg a thought now and then toward those who've been fenced out, particularly when it comes to how some ideas are worded, as it can be difficult to sit on the outside of the closed gate and read about how wonderful it is that all (approved) perspectives have value, and all traditons (except yours) has something wonderful to contribute. That is all. Please continue with the interesting conversation. I shall continue to sit here with my mouth shut and fingers off the keyboard. :)

 

You know, you could start another thread.... :D

 

I think the OP did not mean to exclude people, but she wanted to exclude some topics or ideas. There is a big difference because confusing them causes hurt feelings when it need not.

 

Sometimes it is easier to focus on something if not too many tangents are brought into the discussion. You can delve a little deeper into the topic rather than just skimming the same shallow ideas - especially the ones that pretty much annihilate the OP (Tangents like what is a Christian or is there a God? :lol:). This thread, because of excluding other ideas (not so much other PEOPLE but other IDEAS), has been able to do that to an extent, and it has remained more civil because (for some reason that isn't typical on this board), others have been highly respectful of it, including you.

 

But there are definitely tangents to consider, and those threads could be equally worthwhile and effective. And they might be what others need or are looking for right now. So... go for it! ;)

[OregonNative]

in order to answer it we would have to get all definey about what legitimately qualifies as "Christian", Agreed! This was only based on what I personally consider Christian. No offense to anyone. Again, these are my personal beliefs and I in no way attempting to take away value from the faith of others. I'm terribly sorry if I came across this way.There are other faiths who consider themselves Christian, but acknowledge translational and/or transmissional "issues" with the Bible, and/or who view the trinity as consisting of three separate beings in perfect unity of purpose rather than as a single being divided into three expressions (or however you want to word it). Agreed. Again, my point was to only educate myself on faiths that had hold the same position as I do regarding the Bible and the Trinity. These are important to me on my journey.

And I don't know if you intended to ask non-Christian forum members not to contribute opinions or observations, or to refrain from asking questions about what they saw in the thread, but some may have read your request in that way. I suppose in a way I did. I truly feel that this thread would have turned into a heated religious debate and been deleted. That is NOT what I wanted. I hope most ppl understand my intentions-to ONLY educate myself further, not to cast stones at others that do not share my beliefs in the Bible and the Trinity. Those things I am closed on. As far as things like Purgatory, Confession, Communion (open or closed), Apocrypha, Mary etc. , I might not agree at this point, but my mind is wide open.

 

:001_smile:

Edited December 30, 2010 by OregonNative

[OregonNative]

:confused:

 

Why would a person relinquish control of their faith to someone else?

 

I can't even fathom that. To me, faith is just... the most personal thing a person has. To give the right to choose that away... my brain can't even wrap around that concept.

 

Maybe I'm misinterpreting something here.

 

I don't rely on my DH to choose my faith. It is a journey we take together. However, I do feel that at this time, my DH has better discernment than I do regarding this-not only in this matter, but others as well. It goes the opposite way too. I believe God gives ppl different areas of wisdom and at this point, my DH has more on this particular subject.I am the kind of person that could be sold a snowblower in Texas-probably during the summer!:tongue_smilie:I have faith that God will not mislead us both as we take this journey together.

Edited December 30, 2010 by OregonNative

[Parrothead]

:confused:

 

Why would a person relinquish control of their faith to someone else?

 

I can't even fathom that. To me, faith is just... the most personal thing a person has. To give the right to choose that away... my brain can't even wrap around that concept.

 

Maybe I'm misinterpreting something here.

Wow! I'm with you.

 

I wonder if it is a free will/predestination thing. I could not give up my free will to choose what and who to believe in. Especially not to another human being.

[OregonNative]

 

I think the OP did not mean to exclude people, but she wanted to exclude some topics or ideas. There is a big difference because confusing them causes hurt feelings when it need not.

 

Sometimes it is easier to focus on something if not too many tangents are brought into the discussion. You can delve a little deeper into the topic rather than just skimming the same shallow ideas - especially the ones that pretty much annihilate the OP (Tangents like what is a Christian or is there a God? :lol:). This thread, because of excluding other ideas (not so much other PEOPLE but other IDEAS), has been able to do that to an extent, and it has remained more civil because (for some reason that isn't typical on this board), others have been highly respectful of it.

 

Thank you-this is truly what my heart was trying to do and why I chose the wording at the beginning of my post. (I hope this makes sense):grouphug:

[MamaSheep]

You know, you could start another thread.... :D

 

I think the OP did not mean to exclude people, but she wanted to exclude some topics or ideas. There is a big difference because confusing them causes hurt feelings when it need not.

 

Sometimes it is easier to focus on something if not too many tangents are brought into the discussion. You can delve a little deeper into the topic rather than just skimming the same shallow ideas - especially the ones that pretty much annihilate the OP (Tangents like what is a Christian or is there a God? :lol:). This thread, because of excluding other ideas (not so much other PEOPLE but other IDEAS), has been able to do that to an extent, and it has remained more civil because (for some reason that isn't typical on this board), others have been highly respectful of it, including you.

 

But there are definitely tangents to consider, and those threads could be equally worthwhile and effective. And they might be what others need or are looking for right now. So... go for it! ;)

 

You're right, it's one thing to ask that everybody who wants to participate should focus on a particular subject (and I totally agree with you that this is frequently a good idea, for the reasons you mentioned). It's a different thing to ask that only people who fit a particular set of criteria participate in the conversation at all.

 

Having a little more input from the OP, I think you may be right that her intent was to limit the topics under discussion, but the way she originally said it was the other way.

 

At any rate, I feel pretty uncomfortable posting on this thread even as much as I have...but now people keep talking to me and it's hard to edge back toward the door....sigh....

[OregonNative]

Wow! I'm with you.

 

I wonder if it is a free will/predestination thing. I could not give up my free will to choose what and who to believe in. Especially not to another human being.

 

Could you explain free will/predestination in regards to this specific subject?

I would also like to ask about RCC believing in a person being able to do good and evil. The Lutheran church believes we can only do evil. Looking to be educated once again:001_smile:

 

If I was firm in a faith (which I fully expect after this journey), I don't know that I would give up my faith if my DH went so completely opposite direction. That would be a whole other journey. If I had a firm faith that was denominational before we married, that would have def. been a consideration. Although, maybe not the straw that broke the camels back.

For me, this is an important journey for me to take with my DH and I have faith we will come to the same place.

[MamaSheep]

Thank you-this is truly what my heart was trying to do and why I chose the wording at the beginning of my post. (I hope this makes sense):grouphug:

 

Dang it, you posted while I was typing again! Thank you for offering that clarification. I had gone back and edited my other post to ask this specifically, but clearly not before you started typing. Hee hee...

[OregonNative]

You know, you could start another thread.... :D

 

 

This would be cool!

[MamaSheep]

This would be cool!

 

:grouphug:

 

I think I'll go make some lunch for my kids instead. Although if anyone else wants to start a thread, I'll be happy to respond. Or not. As requested. Lol...

 

Thanks so much for talking this over with me.

[Tea Time]

Thank you-this is truly what my heart was trying to do and why I chose the wording at the beginning of my post. (I hope this makes sense):grouphug:

 

It does make sense! I mean, if you have your mind made up that there is a God and there is a Trinity, then why would you want 47 post telling you that you should consider whether or not there is a God and/or whether or not He is Triune? And how could you ever hope to get any input on what you actually want to know? There is nothing wrong with saying that that is not what you are asking about right now. It does not exclude people, it just narrows the topic. Perfectly legit, and there is no need for anyone to feel rejected personally if they understand that. How you try to word that to make it clear is the difficult part and it definitely can cause misunderstandings and hurt feelings. Common around here. We do the best we can.

 

Sometimes though, people do want to have their say on a topic and shut out any opposition so that their viewpoint is the only one available. That is not cool. And sometimes people want a fiery debate. It is hard to tell! :lol:

[OregonNative]

:grouphug:

 

I think I'll go make some lunch for my kids instead. Although if anyone else wants to start a thread, I'll be happy to respond. Or not. As requested. Lol...

 

Thanks so much for talking this over with me.

Well, if someone does decide to start one, I for one would read it! I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to learn about cultures, religions, movements etc.

[Matryoshka]

It does make sense! I mean, if you have your mind made up that there is a God and there is a Trinity, then why would you want 47 post telling you that you should consider whether or not there is a God and/or whether or not He is Triune? And how could you ever hope to get any input on what you actually want to know? There is nothing wrong with saying that that is not what you are asking about right now. It does not exclude people, it just narrows the topic. Perfectly legit, and there is no need for anyone to feel rejected personally if they understand that. How you try to word that to make it clear is the difficult part and it definitely can cause misunderstandings and hurt feelings.

 

:iagree: Even though I'm someone who is "excluded" by the parameters - if my personal journey is to a place the OP has no interest in going, why would it be relevant to her? I've been finding this conversation fascinating and am glad it's happening! The narrowing of focus is probably part of what's made it such an interesting and productive discussion. :) I learn so much here!

[OregonNative]

I'm signing off now- to embark on what seems an overwhelming, extremely exciting personal journey. I have learned SO much and have some many wonderful starting points for my journey. You have all been incredible:grouphug: I have had so many ladies reach out to me via PM offering prayers and their precious time to help me learn. I am very excited to take this journey and you all have been a huge part of that. This board has had some very heated threads (over much less serious subjects), but this one, I feel, shows how much heart is on this board.

 

I'm am going to take some time to read and read and read all that you have given and recommended to me. If it's OK, I may need to ask more questions and hope I can PM some of you.

 

Thanks again ladies-you all really touched me.

[burleygirl]

OrgeonNative,

 

I want to thank your for your tender heart and honesty in your search for biblical truth. It is is very comforting to know that people still seek the truth about God. I will do my best to give a short biblical answer to your questions but I'd be glad to PM you for a deeper discussion as your questions definitely deserves more attention. My responses are in blue.

 

For those who studied/researched a faith before choosing, what solidified your choice?

 

My choice was solidified in that I needed to know that I was attending the one true church, which is the body (Ephesians 4:4-6; There is one body, and one Spirit.... one Lord, one faith, one baptism; and so forth) founded by Jesus Christ, Matt 16:18 (And I say to you that you are Peter, on this rock I will build My church,....) and Acts 20:28 (.........to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood).

 

This eliminated any church where Jesus was not the founder and God was not the object of worship. Also, I wanted to attend a New Testament church that followed Jesus and the doctrine He taught to the apostles which did not incorporate Old Testament worship practices as there were no Christians in the Old Testament.

 

Does anyone feel that a particular Christian denom. is closest to the truth and why?

 

I do not feel a denonimation (based on what denomination means and that Jesus did not want denomination - explained below) will ever come close to the truth based on the definition and the fact that Jesus prayed that we all be one (John 17:20, 21 - I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as you, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.) and Paul preached that we would be one. See above where Paul was preaching to the Ephesians about one body, God, Lord, etc. Jesus never wanted denominations to exist. Denominate means division. As He said, how can the world believe when the religious community can't agree on belief system because they each have their own.

 

When people ask me what type of Christian I am - I respond that I am a Christian only nothing more, nothing less which is another reason I am a member of the church that I attend. We only wear the name Christian and nothing else because we follow Christ's teachings not some man's.

 

 

What are the major differences between Catholicism and Protestant Christianity? (Edited to specify)

I made a statement that someone felt was irresponsible. Perhaps I should clarify. From what I have been told by my Catholic acquaintances, Catholics pray to Mary which is what I meant by object of worship. I am not trying to offend anyone. As such, our example in the bible is not pray to Mary or ask her to pray on our behalf.

 

Tell me anything thing you deem helpful. Tell me your own story. My heart and mind are wanting to hear!

 

Most people talk about various ways to salvation but a lot of times it's not biblical, i.e. the sinner's prayer or infant baptism which are not even mentioned in the Bible. I will not go into detail here but if you are interested in scriptural references for salvation please PM me.

 

My story is my mother was taught about the Lord and baptized when she was in prison. I was a young child of 5 at the time. When she was released she begin taking us all to church, I listened diligently and growing up and almost all the sermons I have heard were taught with multiple scriptures in context to back up the teachings. God is not the author of confusion but of peace (I Corinthians 14:33). All these denominations are confusing and certainly not peaceful.

 

Please PM me if you are more comfortable doing so.

 

If you would like to discuss further, I would greatly like to do that. I believe in giving Bible answers to people's Bible questions. My feelings about things can very well be quite different from a biblical truth. Sometimes it's hard to accept God's truth but the gift of eternal life is quite rewarding so it's well worth it.

 

I am praying for you to continue to seek God's truth and that you can find what you are seeking.

Edited December 30, 2010 by burleygirl
To clarify my statement

[Avila]

What are the major differences between Catholicism and Protestant Christianity? (Edited to specify)

I have no experience with either of these so I can't answer it. But based on what my Catholic acquaintances have told me the object of worship is not Jesus but Mary. I am not sure how true this is as I have not necessarily researched this religion.

 

 

And here we were having a really nice, meaningful discussion.

 

I don't know how you meant this. People in this thread have overwhelmingly been respectful and kind, and this comment really irks me.

 

Let me translate what I heard: Catholics worship Mary, not Jesus. Some Catholics I don't know very well told me this. I have no firsthand knowledge of it, haven't read up on it or verified, but I just thought I would throw it out there anyhow.

 

Why would you feel the need to pass along something that you yourself admit you haven't researched and that you know is going to be offensive?

 

FTR, we don't worship Mary. We worship Jesus.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Asenik

[Parrothead]

Could you explain free will/predestination in regards to this specific subject?

I would also like to ask about RCC believing in a person being able to do good and evil. The Lutheran church believes we can only do evil. Looking to be educated once again:001_smile:

 

If I was firm in a faith (which I fully expect after this journey), I don't know that I would give up my faith if my DH went so completely opposite direction. That would be a whole other journey. If I had a firm faith that was denominational before we married, that would have def. been a consideration. Although, maybe not the straw that broke the camels back.

For me, this is an important journey for me to take with my DH and I have faith we will come to the same place.

How is rocking a baby asleep evil? How is paying one's bills on time with hard earned money evil? How is going to church to pray to God evil? Maybe I don't get the Lutheran faith the way I thought I did if they think all human kind can do is evil. There is no way I would believe someone like Mother Theresa, for example, could be doing evil in the way she answered God's call.

 

Catholics believe in free will. We can turn to and embrace God or we can turn away from and reject Him. That is free will in a nutshell.

 

If you (and possibly your dh) are interested in moving toward the Catholic church I'd like to recommend checking out Scott Hahn's story He was a Protestant minister that converted to the Catholic church. He and his wife are great apologists now. You can hear his story for free from this website. Either download it or order the free CD.

[OregonNative]

How is rocking a baby asleep evil? How is paying one's bills on time with hard earned money evil? How is going to church to pray to God evil? Maybe I don't get the Lutheran faith the way I thought I did if they think all human kind can do is evil. There is no way I would believe someone like Mother Theresa, for example, could be doing evil in the way she answered God's call. Totally!

 

Catholics believe in free will. We can turn to and embrace God or we can turn away from and reject Him. That is free will in a nutshell.

 

 

If you (and possibly your dh) are interested in moving toward the Catholic church I'd like to recommend checking out Scott Hahn's story He was a Protestant minister that converted to the Catholic church. He and his wife are great apologists now. You can hear his story for free from this website. Either download it or order the free CD. I read this yesterday:001_smile:

 

Maybe this will claryify more (or not):tongue_smilie:(this is information I found online. If it's wrong by all means LMK)

Free Will:

Catholic:Free to do good or evil. "God has endowed us with reason and free-will, and a sense of responsibility."

 

GO:"Man is truly free only when he is in communion with God; otherwise he is only a slave to his body or to the world." (Encyc. Britannica) At the Fall, "man's will became blurred, but did not disappear." (GOAA)

 

Lutheran: Free only to do evil

 

Presbytarian: Free only to do evil Presbyterians believe it is through the action of God working in us that we become aware of our sinfulness and our need for God's mercy and forgiveness." (PCUSA)

 

Methodist/ Wesleyan: "We have no power to do good works, pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing us." (UMC)

 

Baptist:"The freedom to respond to the Lordship of Christ in all circumstances is fundamental to the Christian gospel and to human dignity." (ABC)

[OregonNative]

And here we were having a really nice, meaningful discussion.

 

I don't know how you meant this. People in this thread have overwhelmingly been respectful and kind, and this comment really irks me.

 

Let me translate what I heard: Catholics worshiped Mary, not Jesus. Some Catholics I don't know very well told me this. I have no firsthand knowledge of it, haven't read up on it or verified, but I just thought I would throw it out there anyhow.

 

Why would you feel the need to pass along something that you yourself admit you haven't researched and that you know is going to be offensive?

 

FTR, we don't worship Mary. We worship Jesus.

 

I took this a different way. What I heard burleygirl say was that she had been told by some Catholics that the church worship Mary, not Jesus. BUT she could not confirm or deny whether it was true of not. I don't think she was trying to offend anyone (or spread gossip)-just putting it out there as what she had heard from some Catholics. She wasn't passing it along as truth.

 

I was one of the ppl that thought Catholics worshiped Mary in some way before starting this thread. I also had heard it from Catholics and from non-RCC as well. I think the misconception may stem from the fact that Mary is placed in a much higher place (if you will) than in other churches-for example that she is sinless.

 

There have been other things in this thread that may be incorrect to others, but they have kindly responded to in order to correct/guide the individual. I pray this will continue as I would hate for this thread to be deleted. It has quite a bit of value in it, at least for me. I hope it does for others as well.

Edited December 30, 2010 by OregonNative

[Parrothead]

I took this a different way. What I heard burleygirl say was that she had been told by some Catholics that the church worship Mary, not Jesus. BUT she could not confirm or deny whether it was true of not. I don't think she was trying to offend anyone (or spread gossip)-just putting it out there as what she had heard from some Catholics. She wasn't passing it along as truth.

 

I was one of the ppl that thought Catholics worshiped Mary in some way before starting this thread. I also had heard it from Catholics and from non-RCC as well. I think the misconception may stem from the fact that Mary is placed in a much higher place (if you will) than in other churches-for example that she is sinless.

 

There have been other things in this thread that may be incorrect to others, but they have kindly responded to in order to correct/guide the individual. I pray this will continue as I would hate for this thread to be deleted. It has quite a bit of value in it, at least for me. I hope it does for others as well.

I think were a lot of the misconception of how Catholics esteem the Blessed Virgin Mary and the communion of Saints comes from the Catholic lexicon. We do say that we are going to pray to the BVM for intercession. We also simply say we are going to pray to Mary. Even Catholics that are not properly catechized would think what they are doing is actually praying as in worship, which is reserved for God.

 

Here on the boards it comes up periodically. I'll think we have all the Protestant newbies up to speed, and well... here comes another one asking the same question or making the same mistake. It can get exasperating to some of us long timers to explain it yet again. Not that I mind explaining again. But I do have to pray for patience. ;)

[Parrothead]

Maybe this will claryify more (or not):tongue_smilie:(this is information I found online. If it's wrong by all means LMK)

Free Will:

Catholic:Free to do good or evil. "God has endowed us with reason and free-will, and a sense of responsibility."

 

GO:"Man is truly free only when he is in communion with God; otherwise he is only a slave to his body or to the world." (Encyc. Britannica) At the Fall, "man's will became blurred, but did not disappear." (GOAA)

 

Lutheran: Free only to do evil

 

Presbytarian: Free only to do evil Presbyterians believe it is through the action of God working in us that we become aware of our sinfulness and our need for God's mercy and forgiveness." (PCUSA)

 

Methodist/ Wesleyan: "We have no power to do good works, pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing us." (UMC)

 

Baptist:"The freedom to respond to the Lordship of Christ in all circumstances is fundamental to the Christian gospel and to human dignity." (ABC)

That was interesting. Thanks for posting it. What is GO? Is it a typo for EO - Eastern Orthodox?

I'm am going to take some time to read and read and read all that you have given and recommended to me. If it's OK, I may need to ask more questions and hope I can PM some of you.

I sent you two more PMs. By all means if you have questions that I can help with PM me or start a thread or send up a flare.

[i.love.lucy]

:confused:

 

Why would a person relinquish control of their faith to someone else?

 

I can't even fathom that. To me, faith is just... the most personal thing a person has. To give the right to choose that away... my brain can't even wrap around that concept.

 

Maybe I'm misinterpreting something here.

Good grief. I wasn't telling her she should relinquish control of her faith. I quite possibly worded myself wrong, but it seems OregonNative got my gyst when you and Chucki did not. At. all. I was asking if she was discussing all of this with her husband, if they were on the same page, if he had discernment in all of this that she could benefit by following his lead. I don't think this discussion has to go in that whole "submit to your husband" direction, that's a whole nother thread. I simply wanted to point out that it seemed her life partner on this journey had some discernment at one point and might still.

 

OregonNative, I really think if you take some time to really pray through this and stay in your bible reading daily (I'd start with the gospels and then Acts and Romans) and read, read, read your bible, I believe you will know the truth when you see it. No matter the denomination. You will know when you see something in a statement of faith for a church that it doesn't ring true. You will be able to go back and find in scripture. You can be pointed to a million books with everyone elses opinion but it might just keep confusing you about the real truth which can only be found through pray and reading scripture.

[OregonNative]

That was interesting. Thanks for posting it. What is GO? Is it a typo for EO - Eastern Orthodox?

 

I sent you two more PMs. By all means if you have questions that I can help with PM me or start a thread or send up a flare.

 

Sorry-GO stands for Greek Orthodox. They are the Orthodox church that this information specifically came from.

 

Off to check my PM's. :grouphug:

[OregonNative]

I think were a lot of the misconception of how Catholics esteem the Blessed Virgin Mary and the communion of Saints comes from the Catholic lexicon. We do say that we are going to pray to the BVM for intercession. We also simply say we are going to pray to Mary. Even Catholics that are not properly catechized would think what they are doing is actually praying as in worship, which is reserved for God.

This is a good point. I think this may be what Burlygirl encountered when she was told by Catholics that they indeed worship Mary.

 

:grouphug:

[wapiti]

If was one of the ppl that thought Catholics worshiped Mary in some way before starting this thread. I also had heard it from Catholics and from non-RCC as well. I think the misconception may stem from the fact that Mary is placed in a much higher place (if you will) than in other churches-for example that she is sinless.

 

I wonder whether such misconceptions may also be rooted in language differences, specifically, the definition of "pray". Typically, I would not interpret pray to mean worship, but rather the old-fashioned meaning of "pray" as in ask/request/hope, the same way very old-fashioned legalese would use the word pray (e.g., surely when the word pray is used in court documents or nineteenth-century British novels the speaker is not worshipping anyone). I'd go so far as to say that the use of "pray to" by a Catholic with regard to a particular saint may be a sort of Catholic colloquialism? :tongue_smilie:

 

ETA:

 

I think were a lot of the misconception of how Catholics esteem the Blessed Virgin Mary and the communion of Saints comes from the Catholic lexicon. We do say that we are going to pray to the BVM for intercession. We also simply say we are going to pray to Mary. Even Catholics that are not properly catechized would think what they are doing is actually praying as in worship, which is reserved for God.

 

This is what I was trying to say.

[Parrothead]

Good grief. I wasn't telling her she should relinquish control of her faith. I quite possibly worded myself wrong, but it seems OregonNative got my gyst when you and Chucki did not. At. all. I was asking if she was discussing all of this with her husband, if they were on the same page, if he had discernment in all of this that she could benefit by following his lead. I don't think this discussion has to go in that whole "submit to your husband" direction, that's a whole nother thread. I simply wanted to point out that it seemed her life partner on this journey had some discernment at one point and might still.

 

 

Okay, sorry. I took what you said to mean something totally different. I didn't see it as a "submit" thing so much as... well, you relinquishing all control about your faith. I'll go back and read you post again with the above in mind and see if I get a different meaning from it.

[Parrothead]

I wonder whether such misconceptions may also be rooted in language differences, specifically, the definition of "pray". Typically, I would not interpret pray to mean worship, but rather the old-fashioned meaning of "pray" as in ask/request/hope, the same way very old-fashioned legalese would use the word pray (e.g., surely when the word pray is used in court documents or nineteenth-century British novels the speaker is not worshipping anyone). I'd go so far as to say that the use of "pray to" by a Catholic with regard to a particular saint may be a sort of Catholic colloquialism? :tongue_smilie:

 

ETA:

 

 

 

This is what I was trying to say.

Pray, tell. ;)

[milovany]

OregonNative, I really think if you take some time to really pray through this and stay in your bible reading daily (I'd start with the gospels and then Acts and Romans) and read, read, read your bible, I believe you will know the truth when you see it. No matter the denomination. You will know when you see something in a statement of faith for a church that it doesn't ring true. You will be able to go back and find in scripture. You can be pointed to a million books with everyone elses opinion but it might just keep confusing you about the real truth which can only be found through pray and reading scripture.

 

Respectfully, though, this would only be true with denominations/groups that subscribe to the doctrine of sola scriptura, wouldn't it? Some of the churches that Oregon Native has asked about (RC and EO specifically) don't include sola scriptura in their Tradition.

[OregonNative]

I wonder whether such misconceptions may also be rooted in language differences, specifically, the definition of "pray". Typically, I would not interpret pray to mean worship, but rather the old-fashioned meaning of "pray" as in ask/request/hope, the same way very old-fashioned legalese would use the word pray (e.g., surely when the word pray is used in court documents or nineteenth-century British novels the speaker is not worshipping anyone). I'd go so far as to say that the use of "pray to" by a Catholic with regard to a particular saint may be a sort of Catholic colloquialism? :tongue_smilie:

 

 

I believe this is true. As a Lutheran I was told you ONLY pray to God. Not to someone in Heaven/someone who is dead (although I agree with the argument that those in Heaven have new life and are not dead). I have always taken it as, we pray to God because he is who we worship. So if we pray to saints or Mary we are then worshiping them. Possible a common thought among those unfamiliar with the and the meaning of prayer in the church.

 

Since the RCC prayers to saints and Mary are considered intercessory-what would one sound like exactly. Do you ask for them/her to go to God in your favor? Sorry-I probably sound like an idiot!

[Parrothead]

I believe this is true. As a Lutheran I was told you ONLY pray to God. Not to someone in Heaven/someone who is dead (although I agree with the argument that those in Heaven have new life and are not dead). I have always taken it as, we pray to God because he is who we worship. So if we pray to saints or Mary we are then worshiping them. Possible a common thought among those unfamiliar with the and the meaning of prayer in the church.

 

Since the RCC prayers to saints and Mary are considered intercessory-what would one sound like exactly. Do you ask for them/her to go to God in your favor? Sorry-I probably sound like an idiot!

Here you go: The Memorare A prayer for help from the BVM.

 

ETA: The Memorare is one of my most favorites.

[OregonNative]

What is the difference between Transubstantiation and "real presence"?

[wapiti]

Since the RCC prayers to saints and Mary are considered intercessory-what would one sound like exactly. Do you ask for them/her to go to God in your favor? Sorry-I probably sound like an idiot!

 

You are right (and do not sound like an idiot all - it's not something I never thought about growing up, actually).

 

Hail Mary,

Full of Grace,

The Lord is with thee.

Blessed art thou among women,

and blessed is the fruit

of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary,

Mother of God,

pray for us sinners now,

and at the hour of death.

Amen.

 

Just asking Mary to pray for us, is all it really is ;)

 

St. Therese, the Little Flower, please pick me a rose from the heavenly garden and send it to me with a message of love; ask God to grant me the favor I thee implore and tell Him I will love Him each day more and more. Amen.

Edited December 30, 2010 by wapiti

[OregonNative]

Here you go: The Memorare A prayer for help from the BVM.

 

ETA: The Memorare is one of my most favorites.

 

REMEMBER, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly to thee, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother; to thee do I come; before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me. Amen.

 

This is probably a stupid question, but is she answering your prayer or your request to intercede for you?

[Parrothead]

What is the difference between Transubstantiation and "real presence"?

To put it simply, transubstantiation is the verb. The Real Presence is the outcome.

[OregonNative]

Just asking Mary to pray for us, is all it really is ;)

(I'm not sure how to ask this correctly and hope it doesn't come off as anything other than curiosity).

I know I read the answer to this somewhere or someone already answered it for me-but why does the RCC need(probably not the right word) Mary or the Saints if we have God to pray to?

[Parrothead]

REMEMBER, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly to thee, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother; to thee do I come; before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me. Amen.

 

This is probably a stupid question, but is she answering your prayer or your request to intercede for you?

Letting you know that she has heard you and is talking to her Son about your cause.

[OregonNative]

To put it simply, transubstantiation is the verb. The Real Presence is the outcome.

 

Well geez! I wish Wiki or the dictionary would have said it like that. Thank you:001_smile:

[Parrothead]

I know I read the answer to this somewhere or someone already answered it for me-but why does the RCC need(probably not the right word) Mary or the Saints if we have God to pray to?

Think of it like this: I need you to do pick up my mail while I'm on vacation. So I ask you to do that. I also know that you are a very busy wife and mom, so I ask your dh to remind you to pick up my mail for me while I'm on vacation.

[OregonNative]

Letting you know that she has heard you and is talking to her Son about your cause.

 

How do you know if she heard you? If your prayer is answered? (I'm sorry, these are probably really annoying questions) Are you having to pray for patience?:tongue_smilie:

[mommaduck]

(I'm not sure how to ask this correctly and hope it doesn't come off as anything other than curiosity).

I know I read the answer to this somewhere or someone already answered it for me-but why does the RCC need(probably not the right word) Mary or the Saints if we have God to pray to?

We still pray to God. But the answer to your question is the same answer to "why do we come here and ask people to pray for us?"