x-post: Pro-Saxon folks - your opinion, please?

[razorbackmama]

I would love to hear your take on Maria Miller's opinion on Saxon: http://homeschoolmath.blogspot.com/2...axon-math.html

 

Have you found what she talks about to be true? Do your kids understand the why behind the math, or do they just know how to do it?

 

I'm not really wondering about the difference between mastery vs. spiral as much as I am about how the topics are actually presented, if that makes sense.

 

I'm especially interested in hearing about the upper levels.

[cathmom]

Do you only want to hear from pro-Saxon people?

[razorbackmama]

Do you only want to hear from pro-Saxon people?

*snicker* At THIS point, I THINK so, since I'd like to hear if anyone has experienced the opposite of what Maria talks about. Someone else in the comments posted a link to her thoughts as well, and she says that for K-6 it's fine, but for 7-12, no (for similar reasons). I'd love to hear if anyone has NOT experienced those things.

[cathmom]

I read that comment and her link, and I totally disagreed with it. I have used most levels of Saxon with 3 different dc, who all have different learning styles, and it did not work with any of them.

[Guest Barb B]

Math is one of those things that you need to fit to the child and the teacher! For us, Saxon works. Here is why I think so: Saxon takes one concept/skill (or one part of a concept/skill) per lesson - then you have some practice problems on it, also the student needs to work the sample problems in the lesson. This new concept will be practiced in future lessons. At the time when this concept has been practiced enough, Saxon will introduce/build upon that concept by introduce the next thing/skill. . . of that concept. At least that is how is works out with my kids. By the time they really have that part of the topic down. . . Saxon has a lesson building upon that. This incremental approach (introducing, practicing alot in future lessons, then going on) really works for us. Maybe this boils down to if you or your kids are part to whole learners or whole - part learners (probably a better way to term that, so I hope you know what I mean). My kids seem to get things better in Math when the topic is broken down into parts - practice that part before adding to it.

 

Then there is the review of past lessons. I love this about Saxon. The child doesn't forget how to do past concepts/skills because of the constant review! This is a definite plus for me! I don't like texts that have a chapter on, for example, fractions - and then doesn't review the subject at all in future lessons! Also, saxon is not a book that you can skip problems in (doing just even or odd) it just won't work. The student needs to do ALL the problems in ALL the sets.

 

Ds, got a 640 in SAT math and a 30 in ACT math - he has been in Saxon since middle school. Also, I may add that my kids do Abeka math untill sometime in Middle school, then we switch to Saxon.

Barb

 

PS I just read the bloggers comment about facing a Fresman (college) calculus student who had saxon. Well, my ds is a senior high schooler doing calculus and getting A's. There is alot of precalc in calculus and if one doesn't get the pre calc down they will have trouble in calculus. My ds really knew and remembered precalc by the time he was done with Advanced math.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Barb B

[DH in Las Vegas]

Saxon Math comment. After reading these boards for a couple of years I've found that there are two Saxon camps: Love it/Hate it. There seems to be no real middle ground. We are in the Love it camp. We have used Saxon from level 3 to Algebra II and plan to continue on. We tried Jacob's Geometry (Mom's brilliant idea to try something "new" and slow down a little - ds is in 8th grade and I thought he was advancing too fast in math - go figure! Also, the boards made me nervous about liking Saxon! Was I wrong to do so!) Well, that lasted about 6 weeks. We both felt that there wasn't enough explanation and it wasn't worth continuing on. Back to Saxon Algebra II and tooling right along.

 

Here's how we do it. I spend about 20 minutes going over the lesson - reading from the book and working out examples on a white board a la teacher mode. I have him do a few of the practice problems to make sure he gets it and then he works on the mixed practice until the morning time for math is done. (Math is our first academic subject in the morning while he is fresh.) He does EVERY mixed practice problem - there are 30 for each lesson. These problems DO NOT lend themselves to being cut in half - like doing the odds or the evens. They are NOT repetitive. That's why it's called mixed practice. Three or four problems will be from the current lesson, but the rest will be a variety from previous material. Word problems are included in EVERY lesson! If he doesn't finish in the morning, he completes the rest in the afternoon. When he was younger, with a shorter attention span, he did 15 in the morning and 15 in the afternoon.

 

 

I suspect that many who hate Saxon try to use it as independent study - although it's written to the student, I personally believe that most students would benefit from at least a quick going over of the lesson with a parent - or cut the problem set down. Math, to me, requires a lot of practice and discipline. This is where Saxon shines. None of this introduce a topic once and never hear about it again. Review is constant - reinforcement is its strength. My ds knows math!

 

Okay. Does the book explain the why? Yes. Remember, each topic is introduced at one level and then reinforced in later lessons - even in later books. The explanations are given from a variety of perspectives over time as the student's knowledge base builds. For example, Saxon explains why you can add or substract something from both sides of an equation and still get the same answer. By doing that you have created an "equivalent" equation that is easier to work with and that will give the same answer. There are an infinite number of equivalent equations that can be created, etc... So now the student knows why he can manipulate an equation to make it easier to solve - he is changing the form not the value. Some lessons are merely factual, but when there is a why I think Saxon does a great job of explaining it. As a 40-something going through algebra for the 3rd time, I'm frequently saying, "Wow! If they had only explained it to me this way when I went to school...."

 

You have to go with what works for you, but my advice is to not lose confidence because of what other's are doing if what you are doing appears to be working for you. Like the other poster said, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

 

I hope this helps!

[cathmom]

-

 

I suspect that many who hate Saxon try to use it as independent study - although it's written to the student, I personally believe that most students would benefit from at least a quick going over of the lesson with a parent - or cut the problem set down. Math, to me, requires a lot of practice and discipline.

 

 

Why do you suspect that?

[DH in Las Vegas]

Just my opinion. I've always benefited from multiple explanations for the same thing. The book explains it one way - the teacher or parent may add some insight or another example that just nails it for the student. Also, I like the interaction with my ds when we do math. I feel like I can tell right away if he understands the new concept. Also, by going over his mixed practice every day for literally years I can tell right away if his mistakes are a result of lack of understanding, carelessness, or a brainf***.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

I suspect that many who hate Saxon try to use it as independent study - although it's written to the student, I personally believe that most students would benefit from at least a quick going over of the lesson with a parent - or cut the problem set down. Math, to me, requires a lot of practice and discipline.

Not here. We used Saxon exactly as instructed. In our case it was not being able to see the forest through the trees (like trying to put together a puzzle with tiny pieces and not having a picture for reference) and too much "do this" without enough "why."

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

Maria's post very much mirrored our experience with Saxon. Sorry, I'm not pro-Saxon. I very much wanted to like it because what we were using wasn't working for one of my sons. I had very high hopes that were, unfortunately, dashed pretty quickly. We stuck it out for 3 quarters, at first hoping it would get better and then until we found something to replace it.

[Rain]

I suspect that many who hate Saxon try to use it as independent study

 

But why do you think that many who hate it use it as independent study?

 

Is it because that's how it's promoted for Robinson Curriculum? Just curious. I've never used it as a homeschooler but did while I was in school.

[DH in Las Vegas]

What I meant by "independent study" was having the student use it with no teaching of the lesson from the parent (i.e. having the student read the lesson himself and then work the problems.)

 

Wow. Maybe I should have used different wording. I'm just describing our personal family experience with Saxon and how we have applied it. It works for us.

[Storm Bay]

I suspect that many who hate Saxon try to use it as independent study - although it's written to the student, I personally believe that most students would benefit from at least a quick going over of the lesson with a parent - or cut the problem set down. Math, to me, requires a lot of practice and discipline. This is where Saxon shines. None of this introduce a topic once and never hear about it again. Review is constant - reinforcement is its strength. My ds knows math!

 

!

 

 

I'm sharing this simply to show that, at times, there are exceptions to this, because in our house, the reverse was true. My eldest did it as an independent study with no trouble, other than attitude (but it was arithmetic in general, not Saxon). She definitely understood the math she was doing. However, she didn't need all of the practice, but she is gifted in math and I found by trial and error that if she'd learned something once, she remembered how to do it, even 6 months or more later. She started with Saxon after leaving ps and did three levels of Saxon before I chose to use something else for Algebra. (she did try something else in between, but asked to go back to Saxon). So, with this dd, I am able to say that Saxon did work, even if it wasn't the way most people use Saxon.

 

When I did K and half of 1 with my second dd, it was very much me teaching her the Saxon way, but it wasn't a good fit for dd or me. This was due in great part to dd's learning style. She is also very strong in math, but is a highly visual learner who did much better with a different math program. So in this case, I'm not really posting in the category the OP asked for.

 

I think it's fair to say that Saxon works very well for a number of people, and that at least some of the time, those people would not do well with MM or SM. There isn't any math program out there that works for all dc. However, after having used several elementary math programs, I would say that when it comes to really understanding what you're doing and for challenging word problems, Saxon isn't the top one (nor is it the worst one). There are people who loathe my favourite math books, and there are dc who just don't learn well from them, regardless of the wonderful things they've done for my dc and despite the fact that there are some brilliant things about them. No math program is perfect.

 

Math can be such an emotional subject for something that one would think is logical and rational:001_smile:.

[cathmom]

Wow. Maybe I should have used different wording. I'm just describing our personal family experience with Saxon and how we have applied it. It works for us.

 

That might have been a good idea. The way it reads now, it's sort of saying, "I suspect that everyone for whom Saxon didn't work is too stupid to read the directions or to think of helping their dc."

 

I am glad that it has worked so well for you!

[DH in Las Vegas]

No! That's not true at all! Good grief!

 

Well, ladies, I think I'll sign off for today. I did not intend to offend and hope you all have a wonderful Thanksgiving weekend.

[Storm Bay]

Wow. Maybe I should have used different wording. I'm just describing our personal family experience with Saxon and how we have applied it. It works for us.

:iagree: It's always hard to do this on a forum when no one can see facial expressions, read body language or hear tone of voice. Sooner or later most of us write something that comes off differently than we intended:001_smile:. Also, no matter how well something is worded, someone else may take offense. I'm an avid fan of different math programs and naturally tend to have strong opinions, so have come across too harshly myself in the past.

[cathmom]

No! That's not true at all! Good grief!

 

Well, ladies, I think I'll sign off for today. I did not intend to offend and hope you all have a wonderful Thanksgiving weekend.

 

I didn't think that's how you meant it - I'm just telling you that that's how it came across to me and possibly some others.

[gingersmom]

I like Saxon Math.

 

I usually avoid these posts because to me people who do not like it seem to dislike it with a religous fervor. They are determined with all their might to have everyone else agree with them.

 

I have used Saxon 2, 3, 4, 5/6, 7/8, 8/7 and Algebra 1.

 

I like them all. I am using Saxon math with 2 different children and it works for both of them. One child is average at math and one child is above average in math.

 

I plan on using it through high school.

[Storm Bay]

I like Saxon Math.

 

I usually avoid these posts because to me people who do not like it seem to dislike it with a religous fervor. They are determined with all their might to have everyone else agree with them.

 

I

I have thought this with more than one math program with people's likes & dislikes. There are times when I've wondered if math curricula isn't right up there with politics & creationism/evolution discussions and then I take time to :chillpill:.

[HeidiD]

*snicker* At THIS point, I THINK so, since I'd like to hear if anyone has experienced the opposite of what Maria talks about. Someone else in the comments posted a link to her thoughts as well, and she says that for K-6 it's fine, but for 7-12, no (for similar reasons). I'd love to hear if anyone has NOT experienced those things.

 

I can't disagree that Saxon promotes "procedural accuracy" (although I think that's a good thing), or that the sequencing can seem odd at times, or that the "pattern approach" can be overused. But all programs have their good and bad points. :) And ultimately, each program is just a tool, a means to an end.

 

I actually had the opposite experience, concluding that for K-6 there are quicker ways to cover the same basic material. Beyond that level, we use it heavily (although we also supplement with other math books, which I would be inclined to do even if we were using a program other than Saxon as our main one). I think the key to avoiding a "plug and chug" approach is for the teacher to highlight the lessons in a way that demands thinking beyond the examples in the lessons - to guide the student's mind to make connections beyond the lesson, to grasp the "big picture". But that would be the case with other programs as well, and really, it doesn't take much time or effort to do this.

 

For high school, we've been using it all the way through physics and calculus and FWIW, my two eldest kids are very strong in math (and also got high scores on SAT II). I plan to continue using Saxon with my younger kids as well.

[Tullia]

Are you interested in an opinion from someone who used and loved Saxon for K-3, thought it was ok for middle grades but abandoned it in the upper levels? I know Saxon works for plenty of folks at the secondary level; just not for us. My take on the blog article is that the author clearly has a p.o.v. to which she's entitled, but after looking at some of the ancillary material on the page I have to wonder if she's being completely objective. I'd take the article with the proverbial grain of salt; the author may well be making valid points, but they may or may not apply to you. I have heard quite a bit of anecdotal evidence over the years that Saxon students do very well in college.

 

The important thing, IMO, is to get a handle on your student's needs and have a realistic view of your ability to oversee/mentor/teach or even outsource math if necessary, and base your choice on what works for your situation.

 

Also, I can't remember who suggested this to me several years ago when I asked for advice, but you might also want to consider the degree to which any curriculum you choose deals with topics such as number theory, probability, and statistics. My son is in CC and leaning toward some kind of computer science major when he transfers to the university. He is using some of the AoPS texts to help reinforce those areas because he didn't see enough of them in the high school curricula we used.

[HeidiD]

The important thing, IMO, is to get a handle on your student's needs and have a realistic view of your ability to oversee/mentor/teach or even outsource math if necessary, and base your choice on what works for your situation.

 

 

 

:iagree:

[Teachin'Mine]

We've been using only Saxon from 6/5 to Advanced Math. We like it because it works for us. Does my dd understand everything including the how and why? Probably not. I didn't either. To me that is something that comes later and slowly connections are made and aha moments happen as you make realizations on how the different areas of math are related and why something works. I've even had those moments when teaching my dd elementary math. I think it's easier to explore more of the whys once the student has a good foundation in how to work the problems - then they don't have to concentrate so much on what to do. I think a lot of this will come more at the college level.

 

Obviously no one math program is the right one for every student, but we've been thrilled with Saxon as it works for my dd.

[silliness7]

That might have been a good idea. The way it reads now, it's sort of saying, "I suspect that everyone for whom Saxon didn't work is too stupid to read the directions or to think of helping their dc."

 

I am glad that it has worked so well for you!

 

Yikes!! I didn't take it that way at all!! My oldest is doing Saxon Algebra 1/2 as independent study. He even checks his own work. I grade the tests. He's an A student. My other 2 sons try to do their Saxon independently. I do check their math daily and about once or twice a week they will need me to go back over the lesson with them. I like for them to give it a go on their own first.

 

Saxon is working well for us. But I understand the OP's concern. I had similar concerns myself when I learned that my oldest wanted to go into math/science in college. I didn't want to ruin his math education. But the advice I received and apparently what I'm still reading here is that if it works for your dc then it WORKS! And if your dc is so inclined to study math/science in college and beyond they can succeed. That makes me smile. :001_smile: Bunch of Saxon-lovers here!

[Robin in DFW]

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Edited November 29, 2010 by Robin in DFW

[cathmom]

If you look you can find negative comments about any product out there. However, my negative view of Saxon is not based on others' comments. It is based on having actually used nearly the entire program with three different children, and having been extremely disappointed with the results. My oldest dc did Saxon 87 through the end of Advanced Mathematics. My second dc did Math 1 up to halfway through 54, when I decided that none of my dc would ever use Saxon again. My third child used Math 1 and half of Math 2, at which time the Saxon method caused her to have a complete math meltdown and develop a math phobia which continues to this day. My fourth child is halfway through RightStart B. I see tremendous differences between how he is learning from RS and how Saxon presented things. I wish I could have a math do-over with my oldest 3. None of them like math, and none of them are very good with math.

[Robin in DFW]

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Edited November 29, 2010 by Robin in DFW

[cathmom]

But see...you have personal experience with it...Maria Miller does not...she just doesn't like the method.

 

In my personal experience, Saxon is the only thing that my son has done that has been productive for him. Even though I like Lials---a lot---he does not. But Lials is written for an adult-ish audience, not a 12/13 year old.

 

So...like anything else, everyone will have their own stories, successes, failures, likes and dislikes.

 

Everyone, have a great Thanksgiving!

 

Exactly! I've seen many people post that it did work for their dc and that they learned with it and are good at math, and that's great. To me, the risk of it not working is too great, considering that I used it with 3 very different dc with bad results. Since there's no way to tell in advance with a particular child, I prefer to use other programs.

[jld]

We've been using only Saxon from 6/5 to Advanced Math. We like it because it works for us. Does my dd understand everything including the how and why? Probably not. I didn't either. To me that is something that comes later and slowly connections are made and aha moments happen as you make realizations on how the different areas of math are related and why something works. I've even had those moments when teaching my dd elementary math. I think it's easier to explore more of the whys once the student has a good foundation in how to work the problems - then they don't have to concentrate so much on what to do. I think a lot of this will come more at the college level.

 

Obviously no one math program is the right one for every student' date=' but we've been thrilled with Saxon as it works for my dd.[/quote']

 

This has been our experience, too. Dd15 has persuaded me to switch her younger brothers to Saxon from Spectrum, as she says the review in Saxon is really helpful for retaining the concepts.

 

It does seem like a lot of people disapprove of Saxon. There is an air of, "If you like Saxon, you're obviously a low-level thinker", out there.

 

Well, maybe we are. We have to start somewhere, and maybe some of us have to do the how for a while before we can grasp the why. Some kids, exposed too early to why, might just ditch the whole math thing out of confusion and frustration. I did, after trying to learn trig from what I believe was the Dolciani text in high school. I was so traumatized by that experience I just dropped any idea of continuing with math, and that was a real shame.

 

My dd is trying very hard to convince me that math with Saxon is not scary, and that I could do it, that I could indeed understand trig with this approach. When ds2 is older, and I have some time for sustained mental effort, I would like to try. I really felt like a failure with that hs trig experience, and I would love to put those feelings to rest.

[4wildberrys]

Well, I personally LOVE Saxon math. The explanations make total sense to me and I understand math when I read a Saxon math book. But my kids----they detest it with a passion unseen in any other subject :lol: MUS works very well for them. But I can't honestly say that MUS helps them 'understand the why's' behind the math any better than Saxon could teach it. Of course I am not a mathematician OR a teacher, but I have never seen how one curriculum teaches 'why' better than any other. And we have gone through a LOT of math curriculums looking for the right one. The best one has been the one in which they don't melt down and can actually solve a problem----MUS in this case.

[dangermom]

I'm a Saxon fan, though we are only in 76 as yet. My daughter is doing very well with it and I wish I'd had it in school. It seems to fit her brain. I posted the other day about her dividing fractions lesson--for the first time, I understand why it works the way it does!

 

My 7yo is enjoying her Math 3 program and seems more mathematically inclined than my oldest, so we'll have to see how it goes.

 

I'm afraid to try a different program, actually...

[momof2cm]

Both my kids use a different math program. Dd was never 'into' math and she used Saxon. It has always worked well for her. Ds is a math lover and he uses Singapore. I started him with Saxon and it was not challenging enough.

 

This being said, both kids are now enrolled in the EPGY. Both are doing great. Dd does understand the math so Saxon has prepared her pretty good.

 

I do like Singapore better, but it all depends on the child.

[AndyJoy]

I used Saxon math at a small private school as a student in grades 7 (Math 8/7), 8 (Alg. I), and 10 (Alg. II). I did a different Geometry program in 9th grade, as my teacher wanted a separate program with formal proofs.

 

I personally loved it. I have always loved math, and I really liked Saxon. I appreciated the clear, uncluttered black-and-white style without all the distracting colors, pictures, and side-notes that the flashy public school texts had.

 

When I dual-enrolled in public school in 11th grade, I took Pre-Calc/Analytical Geometry and was well prepared, earning the top grade in my class. I don't remember encountering any holes in my background knowledge. I took AP Calculus AB in 12th grade and was also at the top of the class.

 

When I look back on my math education, what has stuck with me the best is what I learned in Algebra I & Algebra II. This may be because it was easier or more readily applicable than the higher math, but I think it is at least partially due to Saxon math. A few years ago I took College Algebra (Pre-Calc) as a refresher course 10 years after I had it in high school, and was shocked to suddenly understand the "why" behind all the things I had done years earlier without really understanding. This material was from my public school, non-Saxon course. I never had an "aha!" moment with what I learned in the earlier Saxon books, because I believe I DID understand the why behind it at the time. However, since I did not use Saxon Advanced Math or Calculus, I cannot be sure whether I would have understood the "why" of these more advanced courses in high school had I used Saxon, or if it was just a feature of my more mature adult brain that I made the connections later.

[Janine in Ca]

I really think it depends on the student. I have one who did Saxon through Alg 1 ...then, to "try something new" we decided to try Teaching Textbooks for Alg 2 and Geometry. He thought it was easy. He is now taking his math at the community college and getting a 98% in the class. He is my child who could basically learn math no matter how it's presented. He's just wired that way - to think mathematically. He learns the "why" because it intrigues him. He stays after class to discuss advanced math that isn't in the scope of his coursework with his professor....(how this happened, I'll never know....it's just who he is)

 

Our daughter, on the other hand, can DO the math, but really doesn't think mathematically at all. She will learn "how" to do the problem to get through the subject but the why's are of no interest to her. She is currently doing Saxon Algebra 1 and is doing fine but she isn't wired the same way and I don't really think any program can substitute for that natural "wired-ness" of certain students. She excels in understanding the nuances of literature....an area that baffles my math student mentioned above.

[Blessed with seven]

That might have been a good idea. The way it reads now, it's sort of saying, "I suspect that everyone for whom Saxon didn't work is too stupid to read the directions or to think of helping their dc."

 

I am glad that it has worked so well for you!

 

Just a quick word to the OP, I did not take it that way at all...didn't even cross my mind that you could have meant it that way...