Would you skip WWE 1 and FLL1?

[squirtymomma]

I'm thinking about my 5 year old kindergartener's LA for next year (when she's 6 and in 1st). We've been working on OPGTR for about a year. We're on lesson 132, and she is comfortably reading Frog and Toad level books. In addition to Phonics, we are doing the 1st grade HWT workbook. Her handwriting is very good for her age. I also have her narrate fairy tales and do copywork. The copywork is usually a Bible verse or a couple lines of a poem. She does all of this comfortably. She can give pretty detailed narrations with little prompting. Although we're not doing any spelling yet, she writes notes to friends and family a lot on her own, and she seems to be a natural speller.

 

I was thinking of doing CW Primer for her LA for next year. But she really likes the PHP/Wise/Bauer, scripted, straight-forward style of OPGTR. Since I'll probably continue with FLL and WWE for her, I'm thinking it might make more sense to just start them with her next year. It seems like she'd be ready for WWE2. Does that sound right? Would I want to do FLL2 alongside it? It complicates things a bit, now that FLL 1&2 are separate books. If you were choosing for this kid, would you skip WWE 1 and FLL 1? Would FLL 3 be totally overwhelming for her when she hits 2nd? Or, could I do FLL1 with WWE2 next year, and just keep her working on different levels? I know grammar is hard to grasp for young kids, and I don't want to frustrate her.

 

I'll probably just start a workbook-style spelling program like SWO with her next year, if that matters.

[Mom-ninja.]

I would just do FLL 1 and WWE 1. My thought is that there is no need to rush to a higher level.

 

You can always do an accelerated pace, and slow it down when needed.

 

There is a placement test for WWE if you really wanted to consider where to place her.

[squirtymomma]

I would just do FLL 1 and WWE 1. My thought is that there is no need to rush to a higher level.

 

You can always do an accelerated pace, and slow it down when needed.

 

There is a placement test for WWE if you really wanted to consider where to place her.

 

Thanks. Where can I find the placement test? I've only looked at samples to try and get an idea of what is covered in each.

[Mallory]

I agree that there isn't any reason to rush. But I want to say that there also isn't any reason FLL and WWE have to match. There is a slight bit of correspondance, but it isn't worth worrying about. FLL 1 goes fine with WWE 2, just as FLL3 goes fine with it too.

 

You also can start FLL just fine at level 3, so if you did CW for a couple years it isn't a big deal to start FLL later. FLL 3 wouldn't have worked for any of my 2nd graders, it has lots of writing, but the boys did it (with no prior grammar) in 3rd and 4th.

 

Can she do summary narrations (like WWE)? Or long CM style ones? Have you tried any dictations? The first weeks dictation in WWE 2 is, "Do not let flattery throw you off your guard against an enemy." Most 6yos (and even many 7yos) aren't ready for that.

 

I really think the beauty of SWB writing program is that it is so easy to work into other subjects and that it is easy to incrementally edge up the work, or take big jumps as needed. But to do that you can't be using the workbooks for WWE. Have you read The Complete Writer? Or listened to the mp3 lectures (they are on sale this week ;))?

[susankenny]

I would not skip WWE 1. Although the first book may seem too easy, it lays a foundation for the latter books which build each year in complexity. In my opinion, the dictation in WWE 2 could become too difficult for a first grader (unless they spell excellent). It could become frustrating for your daughter, since the child is to correct their mistakes immediately.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Susan

[abbeyej]

I would not skip FLL1. But I would be prepared to move much more quickly than the scripted lessons if that's what she needs. Many children finish FLL1&2 within a year, and if that's what works for your child, then go for it. (Perhaps you can find a copy of the old version that includes both levels in one book?) If she can print reasonably well now, I don't think you'll have any problems if you get to FLL3 a year early. But if you skip FLL1, you'll miss some foundational concepts for year 2 (unless they've added in more review in the second book, now that they've divided them).

[linders]

Don't you love that answer?

 

For DS10 who disliked writing, starting with WWE 1 was great - eased him into it. DS7 could have skipped it (but we didn't).

 

Since FLL1 and 2 are contained in the same book, I would seriously consider starting with 1 and just condensing as you go along. Really, 20 lessons repeating, "A noun is the name of a person, place, thing, or idea," gets tiresome for everyone.

[squirtymomma]

I agree that there isn't any reason to rush. But I want to say that there also isn't any reason FLL and WWE have to match. There is a slight bit of correspondance, but it isn't worth worrying about. FLL 1 goes fine with WWE 2, just as FLL3 goes fine with it too.

 

You also can start FLL just fine at level 3, so if you did CW for a couple years it isn't a big deal to start FLL later. FLL 3 wouldn't have worked for any of my 2nd graders, it has lots of writing, but the boys did it (with no prior grammar) in 3rd and 4th.

 

Can she do summary narrations (like WWE)? Or long CM style ones? Have you tried any dictations? The first weeks dictation in WWE 2 is, "Do not let flattery throw you off your guard against an enemy." Most 6yos (and even many 7yos) aren't ready for that.

 

I really think the beauty of SWB writing program is that it is so easy to work into other subjects and that it is easy to incrementally edge up the work, or take big jumps as needed. But to do that you can't be using the workbooks for WWE. Have you read The Complete Writer? Or listened to the mp3 lectures (they are on sale this week ;))?

 

You're giving me some good things to think about - thanks! We're not doing summary narrations, just "tell me back the story" type ones.

 

I agree that is a difficult dictation for 1st grade. That is helpful. Does WWE 1 have any dictation at the end of the year? I think she'll be ready for simpler dictation next year, but maybe we can get that in a spelling program?

 

I haven't read the Complete Writer... that would probably be helpful to give me a better idea.

[squirtymomma]

I would not skip WWE 1. Although the first book may seem too easy, it lays a foundation for the latter books which build each year in complexity. In my opinion, the dictation in WWE 2 could become too difficult for a first grader (unless they spell excellent). It could become frustrating for your daughter, since the child is to correct their mistakes immediately.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Susan

 

Thanks, that is helpful. It seems like they would ease into dictation a little more, instead of starting with such difficult words.

[squirtymomma]

I would not skip FLL1. But I would be prepared to move much more quickly than the scripted lessons if that's what she needs. Many children finish FLL1&2 within a year, and if that's what works for your child, then go for it. (Perhaps you can find a copy of the old version that includes both levels in one book?) If she can print reasonably well now, I don't think you'll have any problems if you get to FLL3 a year early. But if you skip FLL1, you'll miss some foundational concepts for year 2 (unless they've added in more review in the second book, now that they've divided them).

 

That's good to know. Since FLL2 starts with nouns again, I wondered how critical FLL1 is. Sounds like we should still start there.

[squirtymomma]

Don't you love that answer?

 

For DS10 who disliked writing, starting with WWE 1 was great - eased him into it. DS7 could have skipped it (but we didn't).

 

Since FLL1 and 2 are contained in the same book, I would seriously consider starting with 1 and just condensing as you go along. Really, 20 lessons repeating, "A noun is the name of a person, place, thing, or idea," gets tiresome for everyone.

 

That's the problem - FLL 1&2 are only sold as separate books now. It would be simpler if it was just a matter of following the combined book at our own pace.

 

Thanks for your sharing your experience w/WWE. That's helpful.

[squirtymomma]

Maybe it would make more sense to cover writing in content subjects using the WWE book (not the workbooks) as a guide, and start FLL1 at the beginning next year. That way we can adjust writing to fit where she is as we go. I'm just nervous about keeping up with finding passages for copywork/dictation especially. Seems like it's easy enough to practice narration in history/science/lit readings.

[Mom-ninja.]

Maybe it would make more sense to cover writing in content subjects using the WWE book (not the workbooks) as a guide, and start FLL1 at the beginning next year. That way we can adjust writing to fit where she is as we go. I'm just nervous about keeping up with finding passages for copywork/dictation especially. Seems like it's easy enough to practice narration in history/science/lit readings.

 

That is exactly why I bought the workbooks. I knew it would be hard for me to find passages ahead of time because I had a baby. I see you do as well. For me, anything I can get that will cut down on planning and prep time on my part is absolutely essential.

 

I think WWE is more important to not skip ahead. As a pp said, you would have no problem picking up FLL 3 when the time came.

 

If you buy FLL 1 and find it too easy/slow for your dd, you have two more little ones that can use it. There's no saying that they will be farther ahead in writing as your oldest is.

[texasmama]

Do FLL 1 next year. You will love it and so will she. Such a nice, sweet program to gently introduce grammar with fun poems to memorize.:001_smile:

 

Do not jump ahead to WWE2 in first grade. It is a fairly demanding program, in my opinion. My very bright 2nd grader and my 4th grader with some struggles in that area are both doing it this year.

 

ETA: I sound so bossy. lol I think I am just tired and not feeling verbose. :D

Edited October 14, 2010 by texasmama

[monalisa]

I wouldn't skip FLL1 or WWE1. We're doing level 2 of both now (a 2nd grader with very good LA skills), and I can't see a benefit in skipping to level 2. There is a lot of repetition in FLL1, so you MIGHT want to compress it but I don't see what you gain. Esp. if you follow the WTM approach of so many years of grammar. FLL and WWE take so little time, but the rewards are great. I wouldn't rush it. And I highly recommend the WWE workbooks. WWE 2 is challenging for my second grader and it really builds off the skills developed in WWE1; the dictation assignments are LONG from the beginning. If you really want dictation in first grade, just do it on your own separately with short sentences from your read aloud books.

[squirtymomma]

I guess what I'm wondering is how WWE 1 is more than what we're doing this year: copywork and narration. This is probably where it would be helpful to read the WWE book.

[Brenda in FL]

Maybe it would make more sense to cover writing in content subjects using the WWE book (not the workbooks) as a guide, and start FLL1 at the beginning next year. That way we can adjust writing to fit where she is as we go. I'm just nervous about keeping up with finding passages for copywork/dictation especially. Seems like it's easy enough to practice narration in history/science/lit readings.

 

This is exactly what I was going to suggest. You are already doing WWE1 currently - just continue as you are with history, lit, and science. And go ahead with FLL 1 - 3 days a week. There's also narration and copywork (at least in the older edition).

 

My intentions were to follow the guidelines in the WWE guide with my second child, but never got organized enough! So with child #3 I started using WWE2 in second grade. I did the above for first grade.

[nikkid]

Started hs'ing my 2nd grader this year. We began with FLL1 and WWE1. At first I wondered why it would be important to do both (and not just FLL). We opted for just the text and not the workbooks, and I am glad I did. Although with my crazy life, starting hs'ing and working two PT jobs to put dh through phd program, I thought I would want the workbooks to have it all ready for me, but I found it doesn't take a lot of time and actually makes the school day less hectic to have one less workbook to feel required to follow. My dd gets tired of all the sentences to copy each day, with FLL, spelling, handwriting (we've started cursive since she's dying to learn it), that I like not having another set of sentences to copy that don't fit in with what we're already doing.

 

For now anyway, I just find a sentence with a common and proper noun, like we read Chronicles of Narnia and kids biographies and such for reading and history and I just pull one or two sentences out of there per week and type them into a handwriting worksheet website, print and we're ready to go. Although we're using D-Nealian handwriting, the easier worksheet generator to use is http://www.zaner-bloser.com/spellingconnections/practice-pages.html because you can type onto the lined worksheet, select what grade of paper you want on the left and you're ready to go. Totally customizable.

 

Plus with how fast we're zooming through FLL and WWE being in 2nd grade I'm glad I didn't spend the money on the workbook. I may feel differently when we get to level 3 though.

 

Side note--I bought a slightly used copy of FLL 1&2 (the old set) for $12 on amazon this year. I would imagine the formatting is a lot nicer in the new book, but from what I could tell of the sample pages on peacehillpress.com it seems like the content is the same. So maybe that's an option for you.

[squirtymomma]

This is exactly what I was going to suggest. You are already doing WWE1 currently - just continue as you are with history, lit, and science. And go ahead with FLL 1 - 3 days a week. There's also narration and copywork (at least in the older edition).

 

My intentions were to follow the guidelines in the WWE guide with my second child, but never got organized enough! So with child #3 I started using WWE2 in second grade. I did the above for first grade.

 

Well, she's currently at the beginning of her kinder year. I'm wondering what to do with her next year, when she's in first. That's why I'm wondering what I would add by doing WWE1 next year, since that's basically what we're doing now. But, I'm open to hearing how WWE1 would contribute something we're not getting now.

[squirtymomma]

Started hs'ing my 2nd grader this year. We began with FLL1 and WWE1. At first I wondered why it would be important to do both (and not just FLL). We opted for just the text and not the workbooks, and I am glad I did. Although with my crazy life, starting hs'ing and working two PT jobs to put dh through phd program, I thought I would want the workbooks to have it all ready for me, but I found it doesn't take a lot of time and actually makes the school day less hectic to have one less workbook to feel required to follow. My dd gets tired of all the sentences to copy each day, with FLL, spelling, handwriting (we've started cursive since she's dying to learn it), that I like not having another set of sentences to copy that don't fit in with what we're already doing.

 

For now anyway, I just find a sentence with a common and proper noun, like we read Chronicles of Narnia and kids biographies and such for reading and history and I just pull one or two sentences out of there per week and type them into a handwriting worksheet website, print and we're ready to go. Although we're using D-Nealian handwriting, the easier worksheet generator to use is http://www.zaner-bloser.com/spellingconnections/practice-pages.html because you can type onto the lined worksheet, select what grade of paper you want on the left and you're ready to go. Totally customizable.

 

Plus with how fast we're zooming through FLL and WWE being in 2nd grade I'm glad I didn't spend the money on the workbook. I may feel differently when we get to level 3 though.

 

Side note--I bought a slightly used copy of FLL 1&2 (the old set) for $12 on amazon this year. I would imagine the formatting is a lot nicer in the new book, but from what I could tell of the sample pages on peacehillpress.com it seems like the content is the same. So maybe that's an option for you.

 

Thanks, this is helpful. It really might not be too hard to give her the narration/copywork/dictation experience she needs in the context of our content subjects. That's basically what we're doing this year. I've heard the workbooks can be painfully incremental, and that's my fear about using the WWE1 workbook. Maybe if I actually read the WWE book, I could get a feel for where my dd is, and continue to take her to the next step as she is ready, and not worry about placing her in the workbook. And just start FLL1 next year, and take it at a comfortable pace.

[Brenda in FL]

Well, she's currently at the beginning of her kinder year. I'm wondering what to do with her next year, when she's in first. That's why I'm wondering what I would add by doing WWE1 next year, since that's basically what we're doing now. But, I'm open to hearing how WWE1 would contribute something we're not getting now.

 

I don't think WWE1 would contribute anything additionally as it's just narrations and copywork, and you are already doing that. But I don't think there's anything wrong with just doing the same thing next year.

 

Going ahead with WWE2 probably isn't necessary in first grade either. WWE2 focuses on summaries as opposed to narrations, continues copywork, and adds dictation. For me and my kids, personally, I wouldn't jump to this in first grade because its a lot of work in their eyes. When they are six, I still want them to be learning to love school and not hinder it when they can wait another year for it.

 

Now, the selections used in WWE1 might contribute to your year if you decide to do further reading from the books as read-alouds.

[Brenda in FL]

Thanks, this is helpful. It really might not be too hard to give her the narration/copywork/dictation experience she needs in the context of our content subjects. That's basically what we're doing this year. I've heard the workbooks can be painfully incremental, and that's my fear about using the WWE1 workbook. Maybe if I actually read the WWE book, I could get a feel for where my dd is, and continue to take her to the next step as she is ready, and not worry about placing her in the workbook. And just start FLL1 next year, and take it at a comfortable pace.

 

This is a good plan. The WWE book is very helpful.

[NCJessieRN]

Does anyone know where to find the placement tests?

[Mallory]

Like I was trying to say before (but maybe I wasn't clear ;)) is that if you feel comfortable with the WWE methods (narration, copywork, and dictation)- then there is probably a step between the end of WWE 1 and WWE 2 that you could probably work on. Which it sounds like you have figured out on your own.

 

WWE 2 is going to want summary narrations- Condensing the passage into it's three main points. And leading up to dictations- starting by using simple sentances so you are ready for that complicated one I posted for WWE 2. Even starting with very simple like just her name and a verb, or making simple sentances from her spelling lists.

 

I have felt like the whole idea of WWE is a very strong good plan, but I have felt like the workbooks drag on at points my kids didn't need to drag on (most of level one) but skipped ahead some times way to fast (introducing dictation). They also really have not matched my kids narration skills (which they could have flown through) to their dictation skills (which I always had to simplify). And the actual handwriting paper in the workbooks never fit the size we needed either, even when we kind of followed the wkbk, we used our own paper.

 

We did enjoy most of the passages and were inspired to read many of the books, but I much enjoy using the ideas of WWE in the rest of our day without the workbooks.

[dcjlkplus3]

Thanks, that is helpful. It seems like they would ease into dictation a little more, instead of starting with such difficult words.

 

The first dictation sentence is the sencetence that they copied they day before for their copywork. So the student has already seen and written it. It would be hard fro most 6 yo, but is only a bit of a spelling challenge for a 7 yo. Also keep in mind that you can tell her how to spell every word in a dictation sentence if you need to . I usually just have them tell me what word they are trying to spell (just so I know they are holding the sentence in their mind).

[dcjlkplus3]

Does anyone know where to find the placement tests?

 

I believe they are in the Complete Writer book. It seems that you were to use the evaluations at the end of each year to see if they are ready to go on to the next level.

[squirtymomma]

Like I was trying to say before (but maybe I wasn't clear ;)) is that if you feel comfortable with the WWE methods (narration, copywork, and dictation)- then there is probably a step between the end of WWE 1 and WWE 2 that you could probably work on. Which it sounds like you have figured out on your own.

 

WWE 2 is going to want summary narrations- Condensing the passage into it's three main points. And leading up to dictations- starting by using simple sentances so you are ready for that complicated one I posted for WWE 2. Even starting with very simple like just her name and a verb, or making simple sentances from her spelling lists.

 

I have felt like the whole idea of WWE is a very strong good plan, but I have felt like the workbooks drag on at points my kids didn't need to drag on (most of level one) but skipped ahead some times way to fast (introducing dictation). They also really have not matched my kids narration skills (which they could have flown through) to their dictation skills (which I always had to simplify). And the actual handwriting paper in the workbooks never fit the size we needed either, even when we kind of followed the wkbk, we used our own paper.

 

We did enjoy most of the passages and were inspired to read many of the books, but I much enjoy using the ideas of WWE in the rest of our day without the workbooks.

 

Sorry if I was too dense to catch your meaning last time ;) , but your experience is very helpful. I think this is my best bet. Thanks!

[nikkid]

Like what you said here. I do feel that WWE and FLL can be painfully slow, but I like knowing the plan is there in case my next kid is slower to catch on. I know I'm not missing anything because I can see what we're skipping over. It's nice you can determine your own pace based on your child's skill.

 

In all my research I've been doing for curriculum, I wondered the same thing--why do you need FLL and WWE both. This is what TWTM says, pg 51 (my comments are in parentheses):

1. reading, filling the student's mind with images and stories (and OPGTR fits here for learning to read)

2. spelling is the grammar of individual words

3. english grammar itself, studying the way those words fit together into sentences (which would be FLL)

4. writing, the way in which sentences are put together into stories and essays (this would be WWE)

 

So in the beginning stages it seems that WWE and FLL overlap a lot because you can't learn much about composing paragraphs until you learn about how to construct those sentences that make up the paragraph.

I have the WWE text (strong fundamentals) and in the intro it says year 1-2 practices narration, copy work and dictation, then year 3-4 put the steps together.

Even though most of the text focuses on teaching years 1-4, there's helpful guidelines for years 5-12 in developing a fully educated writer. I highly recommend this book, and it has the whole plan laid out in one book, which you can buy used as well. You don't have to have the workbooks.

So FLL focuses on how good sentences are formed by listening to stories, narrating, describing pictures in the book, and memory work with poetry. WWE focuses on actually writing those sentences through copy work and narration. Some overlap, but some differences. Hope that helps.

[squirtymomma]

The first dictation sentence is the sencetence that they copied they day before for their copywork. So the student has already seen and written it. It would be hard fro most 6 yo, but is only a bit of a spelling challenge for a 7 yo. Also keep in mind that you can tell her how to spell every word in a dictation sentence if you need to . I usually just have them tell me what word they are trying to spell (just so I know they are holding the sentence in their mind).

 

I thought this was the case, that there was some hand-holding involved in the dictation exercises. Thanks for that info.

[squirtymomma]

Like what you said here. I do feel that WWE and FLL can be painfully slow, but I like knowing the plan is there in case my next kid is slower to catch on. I know I'm not missing anything because I can see what we're skipping over. It's nice you can determine your own pace based on your child's skill.

 

In all my research I've been doing for curriculum, I wondered the same thing--why do you need FLL and WWE both. This is what TWTM says, pg 51 (my comments are in parentheses):

1. reading, filling the student's mind with images and stories (and OPGTR fits here for learning to read)

2. spelling is the grammar of individual words

3. english grammar itself, studying the way those words fit together into sentences (which would be FLL)

4. writing, the way in which sentences are put together into stories and essays (this would be WWE)

 

So in the beginning stages it seems that WWE and FLL overlap a lot because you can't learn much about composing paragraphs until you learn about how to construct those sentences that make up the paragraph.

I have the WWE text (strong fundamentals) and in the intro it says year 1-2 practices narration, copy work and dictation, then year 3-4 put the steps together.

Even though most of the text focuses on teaching years 1-4, there's helpful guidelines for years 5-12 in developing a fully educated writer. I highly recommend this book, and it has the whole plan laid out in one book, which you can buy used as well. You don't have to have the workbooks.

So FLL focuses on how good sentences are formed by listening to stories, narrating, describing pictures in the book, and memory work with poetry. WWE focuses on actually writing those sentences through copy work and narration. Some overlap, but some differences. Hope that helps.

 

Thanks!

[nikkid]

I believe they are in the Complete Writer book. It seems that you were to use the evaluations at the end of each year to see if they are ready to go on to the next level.

 

Yes, I'm looking at the book and it has 4 mastery evaluation tests, one at the end of each year. They are basically new poems and stories to copy or narrate that are more difficult. If they can do these, then you're ready to move on to the next year.

 

From page 66:

"Before moving to Year Two, the student should be able to copy a ten-word sentence without error, accurately answer questions about a passage approximately four to five paragraphs in length, and answer the question 'What is one thing you remember about the passage?' with a complete sentence."

[Gretchen in NJ]

I would just do FLL 1 and WWE 1. My thought is that there is no need to rush to a higher level.

 

You can always do an accelerated pace, and slow it down when needed.

 

There is a placement test for WWE if you really wanted to consider where to place her.

:iagree:There is no need to rush. If you find you child has mastered the material then you could always skip a lesson here and there.