Math woes for us too, please advise...

[Guest aquiverfull]

I see there are several of us having a time with Math right now.

I'm not sure where to go from here. Here's a little background:

 

My dd is in 6th grade, we started out in BJU K, tried some miquon but I had trouble getting it. Then we moved to Horizons for 2-4 and switched to CLE in 5th grade. I also supplemented with Saxon 7/6 for a few months in 5th grade. I really didn't see where Saxon was helping her to better understand things so we dropped it and continued with CLE. We are still trying to work through CLE but I know my dd still doesn't have that understanding in Math that I want her to have. She can pass those test in CLE very easily, she always makes around 97-99%. She has told me herself she really doesn't understand what she is doing in Math, but she has become really good at filling in those workbooks so that it appears she knows what she is doing. :tongue_smilie:I gave her the MM placement tests and she placed in 4th grade. I don't know where to go from here. I'm not sure that MM is the answer because I really think it's the format of independent learning that has gotten her where she is currently at. She is the type that needs the one on one instruction, with me actually teaching her first. Although, she doesn't necessarily like that, because she's the "just hurry up and let me do it, so I can be done with school and move on to what I really what to do" kind of kid.

 

I'm not sure where to go... I don't want to continue with CLE. I don't think another independent program is the answer, so I'm not sure about MM. What would you recommend? Thanks!

[Tree House Academy]

We had the same issue. My older son did CLE through the middle of 5th grade and we had to stop. He did well on the tests, did well in the workbooks, but hated the repetitive nature of the "drill and kill." He even scored well on the standardized test.

 

He craved smaller lessons and we went to Singapore. He tested in level 4A! We are now working through it and he is doing well, but gosh, some of those word problems make ME crazy! LOL

 

Hope you find your "fit" soon!

[Guest aquiverfull]

Thank you for your input Rebecca. Can you tell me, was the switch to Singapore tough? I was considering it, but then I didn't know if it would be too different, since my dd has had mostly the "traditional way of Math" vs the "Asian way". I really believe in the Asian way of teaching math and that's why I'm taking a different path with my younger dds.

[Halcyon]

My recommendation would be to figure out what areas of the MM test gave her trouble, and then purchase those piecemeal downloads to fill the gaps. Alternatively. You could put her in singapore 4a *nd work with her a lot on her basic skills. I wouldn't worry about the actual grade level at this point, but it sounds to me like she needs a lot more one on one focus so you can figure out her weaknesses and focus on getting her up to speed. She needs to somehow change her perspective that math is something to 'get over with quickly'-math takes a fair amount of time and focus for most kids, and you might try explaining to her that even though it doesn't seem fun now, it really won't be fun later on when she's hampered by math shortcomings. If you feel sinapore isn't a good choice for her, then perhaps rs would be better?Good luck to you-it's hard when one can't find the right fit!

[Karen in CO]

I've tried just about every math program and have had serious math troubles. First, have you read Liping Ma's book, Knowing and Understanding Elementary Math? If not, please do. Next, have you considered Math-U-See? A mastery type program might help her to get the understanding she has been avoiding by working the workbooks.

[i.love.lucy]

My dd is definitely a "work together" kinda girl too. I tried CLE and thought I really liked it because she was doing well, but it turned out that just leaving the instruction completely up to the workbook didn't work for us. She was getting lost and had ZERO conceptual understanding. We switched to MM and work together on almost all her lessons. We did have to back track but I figured now is the time to get the basics down really solidly. I wouldn't want to backtrack in 10th grade or something. If you have a child that needs your help really understanding the instructions before diving into the problems, then you most likely won't find a program that will do it for you. She might need that auditory input or something, and there's just no way around it. We've been having fun with it but there are only a few times here and there where I can just assign her math lesson and say "go do it". I have to find other subjects to be more independent with.

[Guest aquiverfull]

Floridamama-- I think you are on to something. She was all over the place with the Math Mammoth placement tests. I started out giving her the 5th grade tests- she failed, score 57%. Then I gave her the 4th grade test, still failed at 67%. That's when we went to the 3rd grade tests which she passed and according to MM that meant she could go on to MM4. Because we have been using a spiral approach to math her abilities are all over the place, she can do long division, multiplication, some fraction stuff, some decimal stuff, etc. It makes it very difficult for me to know what her weaknesses are. You are also right about the math attitude she has, well all of school really. I'll definitely talk with her some more about that, I like how you put it. Thanks!

 

Karen- I'm pretty open to trying anything at this point. So I have considered MUS. I also gave her the placement test for it. I think she could go into Epsilon,maybe Zeta. It's hard to tell because of the spiral learning. I don't know. At this point, I just want to spend the next few years cementing and knowing that she can truly understand. I want her to be well prepared for Algebra in 9th if possible. No, I haven't read Liping Ma's book. I will look for it. :) Thanks for your help. :)

Edited October 5, 2010 by aquiverfull

[Guest aquiverfull]

My dd is definitely a "work together" kinda girl too. I tried CLE and thought I really liked it because she was doing well, but it turned out that just leaving the instruction completely up to the workbook didn't work for us. She was getting lost and had ZERO conceptual understanding. We switched to MM and work together on almost all her lessons. We did have to back track but I figured now is the time to get the basics down really solidly. I wouldn't want to backtrack in 10th grade or something. If you have a child that needs your help really understanding the instructions before diving into the problems, then you most likely won't find a program that will do it for you. She might need that auditory input or something, and there's just no way around it. We've been having fun with it but there are only a few times here and there where I can just assign her math lesson and say "go do it". I have to find other subjects to be more independent with.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience. So are you finding the instructions in MM to be enough for you to teach your dd? That is another thing that concerns me with MM, my own math skills are lacking so I need a lot of hand holding.

[Omma]

We are using BJU Math (w/ DVD's), but I have also taught the new 3rd edition math w/o DVD's. What I like about BJU Math is that you do an entire chapter on multiplication, followed by a chapter on geometry, etc. What you could easily do is skip the chapters on long division and go to the chapters where your dc had trouble. We also had used Horizons Math prior to switching to BJU Math, and I feel that it was a good switch for us. My ds really enjoyed zooming along in Horizons Math, but he needed lots more drillwork than he was getting, plus more time spent in understanding math terminology.

 

I don't know much about MUS, except that it also is a mastery-based curriculum, which seems to be what you might want!

 

Brenda

[i.love.lucy]

Thank you for sharing your experience. So are you finding the instructions in MM to be enough for you to teach your dd? That is another thing that concerns me with MM, my own math skills are lacking so I need a lot of hand holding.

So far so good. We're still in 4A and dd is a 5th grader.

 

The only thing we've had trouble with is "Jill and Susan weeded Grandma's garden and got to split $50 for the job. But Jill gets $10 more than Susan because she worked longer. How much did each girl make?" The examples and steps were very clear, so I knew what to do, but dd has had a hard time figuring it out. I wound up using something concrete, M&Ms that I had a pile of to divide between 2 people but one of them gets 10 more than the other. This way I could show her that I only had 50 I could start with. I have to set aside the 10 that one is going to get because I know she gets at least that much, then I could divide the rest equally between the two. Doing it that way seemed to help. MM showed bar diagrams which was harder for dd not having a background in those, so doing it with manipulatives helped her see what the bar diagram was trying to say.

 

We've worked through all of level 3 and now into 4 and I am still loving MM. I do have to encourage dd to use her mental math skills a lot. So if the problem is 2000-470 she wants to set it up and write it out with all the borrowing and carrying. But I have seen with her that this is where mistakes happen a lot. So I encourage her to stop, really look at the problem and see that she can quickly and easily count UP from 470 to 2000. It's taking practice, but we are getting there.

 

Maybe Jackie (corraleno) will chime in. She really helped me see that MM can be a great way for a non-mathy kid to still do Asian math. I'm very happy I made the switch.

[Guest aquiverfull]

Amy,

Thank you for posting about your experiences with MM. I appreciate all the detail you've supplied here. I'm glad to hear that MM is working so well for your dd. I know it must feel great to finally have Math settled. I'm still unsure of what to do, but wanted to thank you for your encouraging post.

[HappyGrace]

I can sympathize-I do LOVE CLE, we've done it from LU 105 up to now (406). Dd10 really needs the spiral, and the simple format gives her confidence-it fills a need for us. I agree with you though on it being formulaic. If we were doing JUST the CLE, she would be doing math kind of by rote. In fact, I can see her struggling with the word problems in CLE now that they're a little harder-it's like she can't apply what she's learned very well. That's why we added in MM. I had to back her up to 2b (from which I just cherry picked a few things, and then we've been cherry picking through (but doing much of) MM 3 since spring. Almost ready to move onto 4.

 

I would echo FloridaMama on filling in where she's lacking. And I'd echo the other poster who said to do the MM with her. I am standing right by dd's side for all of MM, discussing and making sure she gets the concept. It might be hard with a dc that wants to get it over with, but worth it!

 

I personally could not do just MM-she would be forgetting everything about the other stuff we did previously if we did such a mastery based program. Other dc are ok with mastery.

 

In a way, I wish we could do Singapore, and I use some of Singapore with younger ds7, but that has its issues too (shuffling between books, and I HATE the conceptual leaps it expects them to make, etc.) Basically I like to have spiral with both my dc, and there isn't enough time in the day to do both Singapore and CLE, but MM is easy to add in with CLE. I don't feel like it's a perfect solution but it is working pretty well.

 

I'm rambling, sorry, in a hurry. Will try to ck back later on this post.

Edited October 7, 2010 by HappyGrace

[Guest aquiverfull]

Happy,

You raise some great points. I have always leaned more towards a spiral approach. Mainly because, like you, I feel like my dd will forget what was previously learned with a "pure Mastery" approach. It seems like she needs the continual review. I really didn't want to use 2 Math programs and I'm quite sure that my dd with balk at that. However, it may be just the thing that's needed. I appreciate you sharing your experiences.

 

As far as Singapore, I think that's why I stayed away from it thus far. I have no idea what I need to teach it. It has so many pieces that I don't even know where to begin.

[HappyGrace]

Another program I looked at previously was BJU-I didn't want to teach from a TM, so I didn't do it. It is mastery, but has some supplemental books for more review than some mastery programs. It is NOT an Asian math program but it does a pretty good job teaching conceptually.

 

I don't know what to tell you-I'm kind of in the same boat and I wish I could find ONE math program that works for us. I like what we're doing but it isn't perfect.

 

My own personal opinion-I think Singapore is "harder" and my dd would balk at it. She doesn't like to be told different strategies to do a problem. At least I'm able to sneak in conceptual with MM and she seems to be understanding. With MM they make it "friendlier" somehow and she gets the strategies in her own way w/out pushing it like I felt we were doing with Singapore. Like she took the "counting up" strategy that MM uses to make change and started applying it herself to regular subtraction problems, even though when we had tried to do "counting up" strategies previously with subtraction, she was tuning out. I feel like more lightbulbs are coming on with MM than with anything else we've used, and she's not balking, so I'm sticking with it.

 

With ds7, who IS mathy, I'm doing a combo of a ton of different math programs to try to figure out a good fit for him. It is a pain, for sure, but I just want to do the best I can with math for them!

 

Another thing is that I am constantly training myself in this Asian math that I never learned. The Ma book is great, and I study all these math programs and try to work through them myself to learn the techniques so I can teach them better.

 

Sigh....I wish there were an easier way!!!!!!!!

[walkermamaof4]

I thought I'd add a bit about our experience in case it is helpful:

We started with MUS and used it for 2 years and just didn't like it. So we switched to R&S and used it for 1-4 (repeated 1 to get facts solid). It was drill and kill. No understanding here, just know our facts and memorized how. So we had finished R&S4 in the spring of 2010.

We switched to MM. I tested them and had them do MM3! (remember we should have been doing 5 in theory) and it was no cake walk, but I truly thought it would fill our gaps and teach dd to think in a new way. We did it this summer spending a ton of time on it with me at her side. Then we moved to MM4. We just are on 4A, doing 5 pages a day. And ---ahah! --- she is suddenly being able to do some on her own, and certainly has grown lightyears since spring. We will finish MM5B by June if we keep up the 5 pp a day pace. It is a lot, but worthwhile to me and she is managing with my help.

 

The notes at page tops are enough for me to walk her through an explanation and we are doing great.

 

My others are also doing MM and all are doing great.

 

We tried Saxon for a few weeks years ago and Miquon too. I didn't prefer either personally, but may have liked Miquon if I had started with it and had fewer kids to teach it to. We also did a bit of RS and love it but I couldn't do it with all 4 kids. We do use the abacus still sometimes.

 

HTH!

[MIch elle]

Grade 6 & up is a great time to think about dvd instruction IF you can't or don't have the time to teach math lesson to your dc. Math is something that must be taught/discussed for some.

 

Teaching Textbooks

Saxon DIVE or Teaching Technology

BJU

or others

 

 

I really like Art Reed's DVDs for Saxon but his series starts with Saxon alg.1/2. :001_smile:

[mystika1]

My dd is definitely a "work together" kinda girl too. I tried CLE and thought I really liked it because she was doing well, but it turned out that just leaving the instruction completely up to the workbook didn't work for us. She was getting lost and had ZERO conceptual understanding. .

That sounds exactly like us but MM didn't work for dd. My dd would literally cry everyday in frustration with MM. SM math has worked wonders cause the pages are not loaded with problems and the cute graphics keeps her interested in the work. I would recommend that you print out samples of student work pages of each program you are interested in and present them to the child. You should be able to get an idea of which one would work best instead of wasting a bunch of money.:)

HTH,

 

Penny

[Marla]

She was all over the place with the Math Mammoth placement tests. I started out giving her the 5th grade tests- she failed, score 57%. Then I gave her the 4th grade test, still failed at 67%. That's when we went to the 3rd grade tests which she passed and according to MM that meant she could go on to MM4.

 

What Light Unit in CLE did your dd finish when you gave her the MM placement tests? My dd is also in 6th grade, using CLE (finished 505) and I'm seriously looking at MM. Thanks!

[brownie]

Singapore's placement tests ARE much harder than Saxon's. We are going the other direction...DS10 just took the Singapore end of 4A level placement test, scoring a 78% after much ado, and scored 95% on the placement into Saxon 7/6. We have done 2 days of Saxon so far and hoping for the best. Brownie

[Melissa in CA]

Kelli,

 

It sounds like you've done a bit of jumping around. I honestly would not jump into another completely different program, but I would instead supplement the one you have.

 

I personally would not jump ship with CLE, but perhaps add MM (or Singapore, though my ds and I both really dislike it) to it. Last year my ds used BJU 2x a week and CLE 3x a week. It was a good fit for him due to BJU's use of manipulatives for getting to the 'whys' behind the math, alongside CLE's wonderful spiral retention method. We are now using mainly CLE, though I will add in other Maths when I feel the need (see siggy). My ds does surprisingly well with CLE, and very well with the word problems....so he understands the concepts. I get so excited when I am grading his daily work and he gets a problem right that I think for SURE he won't know how to do. :D Now, perhaps for some it seems formulac, idk, but I see progress and understanding that didn't use to be there...so I am very happy with it. ;)

 

Of course, not every program works for every child! I totally get that. But if your dd is doing well on her math tests and standardized tests, I would not completely dump CLE...I would instead add to it. I would try a couple days of MM (using the blue series perhaps), or another program like it, a week.

 

Just my two cents. :D

Edited November 6, 2010 by Melissa in CA

[Mom0012]

Kelli,

 

It sounds like you've done a bit of jumping around. I honestly would not jump into another completely different program, but I would instead supplement the one you have.

 

I personally would not jump ship with CLE, but perhaps add MM (or Singapore, though my ds and I both really dislike it) to it. Last year my ds used BJU 2x a week and CLE 3x a week. It was a good fit for him due to BJU's use of manipulatives for getting to the 'whys' behind the math, alongside CLE's wonderful spiral retention method. We are now using mainly CLE, though I will add in other Maths when I feel the need (see siggy). My ds does surprisingly well with CLE, and very well with the word problems....so he understands the concepts. I get so excited when I am grading his daily work and he gets a problem right that I think for SURE he won't know how to do. :D Now, perhaps for some it seems formulac, idk, but I see progress and understanding that didn't use to be there...so I am very happy with it. ;)

 

Of course, not every program works for every child! I totally get that. But if your dd is doing well on her math tests and standardized tests, I would not completely dump CLE...I would instead add to it. I would try a couple days of MM (using the blue series perhaps), or another program like it, a week.

 

Just my two cents. :D

 

Yes, I think this is an excellent suggestion. If your daughter is doing that well with CLE, and her standardized tests, it would seem there must be some understanding there. My daughter uses CLE and does well with the program and her standardized tests and she has a very good understanding of math. She always gets all the word problems correct and she applies her knowledge to real life situations. She did start out with RS as her foundation, so maybe that has increased her understanding, but, really, I think CLE is great.

 

Just because your daughter only scored on the 4th grade level in Math Mammoth does not mean she is not doing well. All these math programs have different scopes and sequences and sometimes the problems are just presented very differently, so even if they know how to do it, they are a little thrown when they first see it in a different format. Also, unless I am mistaken, Math Mammoth only has 5 levels and I believe covers everything up to prealgebra in those levels, so their program is more condensed. Can you pinpoint a few areas on the 4th grade placement test that she was having problems with or did she just overall not do well?

 

My son struggles with math. He uses R&S and that is working well for him. However, I do supplement with other programs from time to time. Right now, I am having him take the Math Mammoth placement tests and then filling in the areas that he has trouble with with the supplemental series. For example, on the last test he took, he passed it, but almost all the problems he got wrong were geometry problems or time problems. R&S does not do much geometry and he never really got the whole idea of half past or quarter till when he was younger and it hasn't come up again. So, for less then $3 I bough the MM level 1 geometry supplement and he's really been enjoying it. When he's done with that, I'll do the clock one. Then he'll do the next placement test and we'll repeat.

 

I also really like some of Math Mammoth's supplemental material, where they apply problems to real life. I think there is a cooking one and a state one and a few others. I hope to do these with both my kids at some point because they look great.

 

Lisa

Edited November 6, 2010 by LisaTheresa

[Guest aquiverfull]

What Light Unit in CLE did your dd finish when you gave her the MM placement tests? My dd is also in 6th grade, using CLE (finished 505) and I'm seriously looking at MM. Thanks!

 

When I gave her the placement tests she was in LU 602. Hope that helps.

[Guest aquiverfull]

Thank you Melissa and Lisa for your suggestions. My dd has never taken standardized tests so I'm not sure how she would score on those. I know that she is not fully grasping the concepts with CLE. For instance, she never really understood measurement. Right now we are going back and doing MM Blue Measurement. After we are done with that, I will pinpoint her other areas of weakness. She didn't do very well on the MM placement tests overall really. It was hard to see where her weaknesses lie. I'm still not really sure. I know she struggles some with multiplication and division of fractions. So I might pick up some of MM Blue supplements for that as well. I still have not decided what we will do after we fill in some gaps. I still have my CLE LUs so I may go back to that or go into the Light Blue MM. Thanks for all your thoughts and suggestions.

[Corraleno]

Normally I would agree with the idea of just picking up a few MM blue books to remediate the topics she has the most trouble with, but since you said your DD needs more review, I'd actually just go ahead and put her in MM4a and work through it, for several reasons:

(1) the Light Blue books include cumulative reviews as well as chapter tests, so she won't forget the previous material;

(2) even if she "knows" long division & fractions & decimals, MM will teach it very differently from CLE, and that's the part (the conceptual explanations) you really want;

(3) Light Blue 4a is a big step up from 3b, and gets into some pretty sophisticated concepts (like solving simultaneous equations with 2 variables!);

(4) the conceptual foundation laid in MM4 really helps when you get to MM5 & 6.

 

As for the "independent" part, MM can be done independently by kids who prefer to work that way, or it can be parent-taught if kids need that instead. The explanations are very clear and thorough, and you can easily read through them yourself and then either read them aloud with your DD, checking that she understands each step, or you can re-explain it to her in your own words.

 

IMO, 4th grade is the point where you want to really make sure the concepts are solid, as the child gets into fractions, decimals, percents, ratios, etc., and I think MM does a fantastic job with this. She really focuses on making sure kids understand not only "what to do" with fractions/decimals/percents, but "what they are" and how they're related: a fraction is also a division problem and a decimal is a fractional part and a percent is a decimal, etc. She explains why "invert & multiply" works when dividing by a fraction, and why "moving the decimal" works when dividing by a decimal, etc. Understanding these things conceptually, instead of just memorizing algorithms, makes algebra so much easier, and is well worth the time invested even if it "looks" like you're taking a step backwards in terms of grade level.

 

Jackie