What in TOG don't you like?

[siloam]

Yeah, I just figured that out after I posted it here. Thanks! So how much planning time does it normally take a first timer? I am using Konos this year and it took me all summer to plan for the year and of course nothing has gone as planned.

Konos looks like a lot of planning. I am a pretty detailed planner and it took me a while to get the first week done (probably a whole week), but once I got all the parts it has gotten much quicker. Now I can pull together a whole quarter in a week, and I do more planning than I think most do. Here I know what I want to what is planned does get done, but it is different work than Konos, I think. Once I have my schedule laid out and everything printed off and ready to go I just have to hand out sheets, books and do some reading. With Konos you still have stuff to do. Gathering stuff for projects is not my strong suit. If I don't have something I thought I did everything would come to a screeching halt. Then I would have to re-group, find something else to use or go buy it, then I have lost a day, how to handle that? I would be a mess in Konos even through my kids are hands on learners. I do much better with making models, paper dolls, projects that come in kits with all the pieces...those sort of things. :D

 

Heather

[Gooblink]

I decided to give TOG another go this year - I bought years 1-3 and we did most of year 2 a couple of years ago, then switched gears last year, now came back again this year to see if I could make it work.

 

Well...we're almost 2 months into our school year and STILL slogging through week 4. I'm going to hang it up for good and (most likely) sell it.

 

I'm not pleased with the reading selections. My kids (who love history) are not enjoying the reading selections and, I agree with what another poster mentioned, the teacher's notes don't match up to the reading in a way that works for me. I'm disappointed with the literature worksheets, too. They're just busy work, IMO.

 

I love TOG as a resource, but it's an expensive resource and one that requires too much tweaking from me to be worthwhile. We're going to be moving to strictly WTM method in the next couple of weeks. I've decided I(we) like to pick out the books we want to read, not have them chosen for us.

 

On a totally snarky sidenote: the pps regarding the discussion groups reminded me that someone from TOG started "following" me on Twitter, then, once they got a bunch of followers back, proceeded to unfollow most everyone. I don't like that. (a nit, I know) :tongue_smilie:

[Gooblink]

Konos looks like a lot of planning. I am a pretty detailed planner and it took me a while to get the first week done (probably a whole week), but once I got all the parts it has gotten much quicker. Now I can pull together a whole quarter in a week, and I do more planning than I think most do. Here I know what I want to what is planned does get done, but it is different work than Konos, I think. Once I have my schedule laid out and everything printed off and ready to go I just have to hand out sheets, books and do some reading. With Konos you still have stuff to do. Gathering stuff for projects is not my strong suit. If I don't have something I thought I did everything would come to a screeching halt. Then I would have to re-group, find something else to use or go buy it, then I have lost a day, how to handle that? I would be a mess in Konos even through my kids are hands on learners. I do much better with making models, paper dolls, projects that come in kits with all the pieces...those sort of things. :D

 

Heather

 

 

Konos was the first curriculum I used when we stared hsing. I fell in love with the teaching philosophy! My kids learned so much! I didn't even spend all that much time planning, we went to the library each week, I picked out a couple of activities and we mostly had fun with it.

 

That was elementary - volumes 1-3 - I've not looked at their HOW stuff for highschoolers.

 

:)

[thowell]

Konos was the first curriculum I used when we stared hsing. I fell in love with the teaching philosophy! My kids learned so much! I didn't even spend all that much time planning, we went to the library each week, I picked out a couple of activities and we mostly had fun with it.

 

That was elementary - volumes 1-3 - I've not looked at their HOW stuff for highschoolers.

 

:)

 

This is what I should have done! I spent an entire summer planning out the year with projects, books, videos and extra sheets I found and printed. I loved the look of it when I was finished but, 5 weeks into the year and we are still in week 2! I just can not seem to pull my kids away from something when they are enjoying it soooo much. They have been learning about Lewis and Clark for several weeks now and Love it! I had only planned 1 week for this! I have to decide for the rest of the year to use my own schedule as an outline. I have become a slave to my own schedule!:willy_nilly: Ok, sorry don't mean to highjack this thread. I am done now!

[shanvan]

I'm disappointed with the literature worksheets, too. They're just busy work, IMO.

 

I have to say I agree with this for the most part for LG and UG. I even feel that way about dialectic lit ws at times. Rhetoric looks like an incredible literature program, but I don't see dialetic leading up to it gradually. It's more of a leap up.

 

I've decided I(we) like to pick out the books we want to read, not have them chosen for us.

 

Me too! This is why we use TOG literature lightly. In LG I use the lit selection for a fun read aloud and opt for narration instead of worksheets (unless I find one I think is particularly valuable). In UG and D I pick and choose what we will use from the lit selections. That may change as we leave year 1 and begin year 2, since the selections are more to my taste. We have nightly read alouds completely unrelated to TOG, and both of my kids use a reading program tweaked to cover what I choose (not used as written). But I majored in literature and am a lit junkie so very particular about what I want taught and how.

 

/QUOTE]

 

I will say that the TOG lit and read alouds we have used have added quite a bit to our history studies. They really seem to flesh out the time period and help make connections for my kids.

 

I also want to agree with the post about the teacher's notes. The layout drives me nuts. It doesn't seem to be consistent from week to week.

 

There are things that bother me and things I would change about every curriculum we use. Even with the above criticism, TOG is still working well for us.

 

Shannon

 

ETA: I took another look at the lit WS through out year 1 and, I have to say, while at first many look like busywork, often they are truly getting the student to explore an important concept. They aren't as busy-workish as I thought. I just haven't used that many of them.

Edited September 29, 2010 by shanvan

[Joy at Home]

TOG started working for us (after trying twice and going back to SL each time) when I really started making it my own.

 

One thing I've loved about SL over the years, after doing cores up to Core 7 and part of 100, was the books. I love the relaxed style of reading great books together and learning in that way. But by Core 6, I felt like, although dd was reading great books, the piece we were missing was the synthesizing of information. I felt like she was reading, but we were not doing anything with that information. Unless I stayed two steps ahead of her in her reading and doing independent research on my own, I was not able to engage her in her history studies.

 

Shift to TOG, where choices abound and I have the resources and tools at my fingertips to fully engage and lead her in discussion, but they are so much more than I use that I feel overwhelmed and like a failure for not using it to the hilt.

 

After several attempts, I've found a very happy compromise. I love TOG in that it teaches me via teachers notes and, if I choose, history readings, enough so that I feel like I know what I'm talking about and discuss it with dc. It takes history in bite size chunks, lays out clear objectives for the week, and gives me lots of choices to meet those objectives. But they are just that - choices. I do not use many of them. I usually don't do any vocab or timeline; the dates I feel are very important I put on an index card and put in their memory work. I sometimes do the maps. I use some fo the writing assignments, but I use IEW to flesh them out. And, here's the thing, I don't use much of the reading selections. Sorry, but I love SL books, and I add in most of them to the period we're learning about. Many times I substitute history readings as well.

 

When I finally gave myself permission to use TOG in a way that worked for us, without having to feel like it wasn't worth it if I didn't use it to the fullest, we started thriving. It has given me the structure I need to focus on chunks of chronological history, with clear objectives every week, teachers notes that help educate ME, but do so in a less "academic" and more "CM/SL" sort of way.

 

So, back to the original post, no, I guess there's nothing that really annoys me so much. I just choose not to use the things I find particularly helpful in our homeschool.

 

Blessings,

Lisa

[Melinda TX]

I don't like that there are no discussion questions for LG/UG. I love the Socratic method, and every program I use has an element of it. So it is frustrating that a program that is so strong on that front in the upper levels leaves it out completely at the grammar level.

 

 

I am almost embarrassed to admit that this was the deal-breaker for me. No discussion questions for UG? I don't spend that much money on a curriculum to then have to pull discussion questions out of my over-tired brain.

Seriously. We went back to SOTW 3 for ds11 (which we love) and older dd is doing Core 100 lite (pick and choose on the literature and additional reading).

[johnandtinagilbert]

So I have been looking at TOG and I want to make sure of something. When I am looking at the samples week, these weekly schedules do not come with TOG? How much time does it take you to plan it out? How do you know how to split up the reading? You know like read book "??" pages "??" on this day? How do you all decide that?

General planning; weekly schedule; 1.5 weeks schedule

 

 

I'm not pleased with the reading selections. I wonder how this changes as the suggestions now change to use "in print" books. My kids (who love history) are not enjoying the reading selections and, I agree with what another poster mentioned, the teacher's notes don't match up to the reading in a way that works for me. I'm disappointed with the literature worksheets, too. They're just busy work, IMO. I find this true in LG/UG, but less frequently in D and Rh. I do find, however, that the literature discussion is what really makes this great. It also took me a while to realize there is a literature lecture intended before they get to the worksheet. This discovery really made a difference as it makes the worksheet a cementer of information, less busyworkish.

 

I am almost embarrassed to admit that this was the deal-breaker for me. No discussion questions for UG? I don't spend that much money on a curriculum to then have to pull discussion questions out of my over-tired brain.

Seriously. We went back to SOTW 3 for ds11 (which we love) and older dd is doing Core 100 lite (pick and choose on the literature and additional reading).

Why not use the Dialectic reading for one subject at that point, slowing introducing the next level and also providing you with the questions you need (only using a question or two to get started). Also, since SOTW is suggested, I generally keep the activity guide on hand, too for my LG/UG kiddos. There's the questions for you :)....I like my cake and eating it, too :)

[johnandtinagilbert]

TOG started working for us (after trying twice and going back to SL each time) when I really started making it my own.

 

One thing I've loved about SL over the years, after doing cores up to Core 7 and part of 100, was the books. I love the relaxed style of reading great books together and learning in that way. But by Core 6, I felt like, although dd was reading great books, the piece we were missing was the synthesizing of information. I felt like she was reading, but we were not doing anything with that information. Unless I stayed two steps ahead of her in her reading and doing independent research on my own, I was not able to engage her in her history studies.

 

Shift to TOG, where choices abound and I have the resources and tools at my fingertips to fully engage and lead her in discussion, but they are so much more than I use that I feel overwhelmed and like a failure for not using it to the hilt.

 

After several attempts, I've found a very happy compromise. I love TOG in that it teaches me via teachers notes and, if I choose, history readings, enough so that I feel like I know what I'm talking about and discuss it with dc. It takes history in bite size chunks, lays out clear objectives for the week, and gives me lots of choices to meet those objectives. But they are just that - choices. I do not use many of them. I usually don't do any vocab or timeline; the dates I feel are very important I put on an index card and put in their memory work. I sometimes do the maps. I use some fo the writing assignments, but I use IEW to flesh them out. And, here's the thing, I don't use much of the reading selections. Sorry, but I love SL books, and I add in most of them to the period we're learning about. Many times I substitute history readings as well.

 

When I finally gave myself permission to use TOG in a way that worked for us, without having to feel like it wasn't worth it if I didn't use it to the fullest, we started thriving. It has given me the structure I need to focus on chunks of chronological history, with clear objectives every week, teachers notes that help educate ME, but do so in a less "academic" and more "CM/SL" sort of way.

 

So, back to the original post, no, I guess there's nothing that really annoys me so much. I just choose not to use the things I find particularly helpful in our homeschool.

 

Blessings,

Lisa

Great post!

[Tracy]

Also, since SOTW is suggested, I generally keep the activity guide on hand, too for my LG/UG kiddos. There's the questions for you :)....I like my cake and eating it, too :)

 

The SOTW AG has discussion questions? I thought it was just coloring maps and book lists. I guess I will have to check that out.

[johnandtinagilbert]

The SOTW AG has discussion questions? I thought it was just coloring maps and book lists. I guess I will have to check that out.

It has "narration lead ins" that can lead to discussions of what they know, which in turns, opens the door for you to ask more questions...not as intense as TOG, but certainly a nice way to get grammar students' wheels turning!

[shanvan]

I am almost embarrassed to admit that this was the deal-breaker for me. No discussion questions for UG? I don't spend that much money on a curriculum to then have to pull discussion questions out of my over-tired brain.

Seriously. We went back to SOTW 3 for ds11 (which we love) and older dd is doing Core 100 lite (pick and choose on the literature and additional reading).

 

From listening to the Teacher Training webinars and reading the Loom I found that TOG doesn't advocate the discussions for LG & UG because they are tailoring instruction to the development of the child. They don't feel that the LG & UG kids are intellectually ready for Socratic discussions. That is why there are none included for those levels.

 

I read (somewhere in a TOG document) that they are not in favor of the LG & UG kids sitting in on discussions. I can see that for Rhetoric level, but I completely ignore this advice since I am dealing with DD (LG/UG) and DS who is in Dialectic. I let my DD sit in on the discussion and glean what she can. If her eyes start to glaze over, I send off to do something else.:)

 

I *think* I remember reading somewhere that in the LG/UG years they prefer you focus on narration, giving children 'the big picture' and recall a few important facts.

 

Shannon

[siloam]

I don't like that there are no discussion questions for LG/UG. I love the Socratic method, and every program I use has an element of it. So it is frustrating that a program that is so strong on that front in the upper levels leaves it out completely at the grammar level.

 

You know what is odd, the classic version actually has discussion questions for LG and UG lit, but it was dropped in the redesign. :confused:

 

Heather

[specialmama]

I suppose it would depend on what the goals of discussion are, or what your family is looking for apart from that model. Typically in a classical education, discussion is reserved for making connections (in the Logic stage) and not reading comprehension. At the LG and UG stage, the idea of "hanging pegs" is more important. LG & UG students could be doing more memory work with dates and places, and you don't really need discussion questions for that. However, we sometimes did discuss at the UG level, especially as we began to move into the D level. The last year of UG I just glazed over the history discussion questions in D level, chose one or two that were relevant to what we covered, and we discussed. Not as thoroughly as a D student would, but we would discuss a little. Lit questions are not so easy to do that with as the works vary greatly by level, but then, there's the SAPs which (generally) check comprehension.

[Guest ME-Mommy]

Well, it will be a LONG time before I try the Loose Threads forum.

...

Too bad we can't be real there. You know, we moms fool ourselves if we think everyone's lives/homeschools are all rosy, and we're the only ones who struggle. We need each other to be REAL. We do not need to bury our heads in the sand and add to another's grief because we refuse to be real. Admitting the bad or what we conceive as bad for our families should be allowed and even encouraged. :glare:

 

:iagree: I posted a question about using TOG in a more CM style and how I could pare it down and make it work for my family.

 

The post was moderated...deleted...as in never showed up.

 

I was then contacted by the Mod and told this was an "on-topic" group and only encouraging posts were allowed.

 

How "on-topic" is the Secret Sister thing they do at Christmas time?? (making everyone wade through 100s of posts of "clues" as to the identity of the Secret Sister) :glare:

[shanvan]

:iagree: I posted a question about using TOG in a more CM style and how I could pare it down and make it work for my family.

 

The post was moderated...deleted...as in never showed up.

 

I was then contacted by the Mod and told this was an "on-topic" group and only encouraging posts were allowed.

 

How "on-topic" is the Secret Sister thing they do at Christmas time?? (making everyone wade through 100s of posts of "clues" as to the identity of the Secret Sister) :glare:

 

This is just too weird! :blink:

[shanvan]

You know what is odd, the classic version actually has discussion questions for LG and UG lit, but it was dropped in the redesign. :confused:

 

Heather

 

I didn't realize that. Hummm, wonder why they changed their ideas on this???

 

What are the discussion question like in Classic? Do they seem to promote narration more than Socratic discussion?

 

Shannon

[momee]

To the OP - what I didn't like about TOG was it's rigor. (gasp, shock - I know, we all search for it but we got a bit more than we asked for, lol)

 

I understand rigor to important but it - well - it just did us in. He succeeded at the dialectic level but at rhetoric the pace throughout each year we bombed and were totally burnt out by year 2.

 

There are similar choices in WTM but there she says 10 good, 12 better, 18 stellar or something like that. With TOG it's a new hard choice almost every week - four! Shakespeare plays in 5 weeks or something like that!

 

I know, I know, you can adjust the pace...mmhmm. To TOG's credit they did have charts that help you, but even then the pace and the workload was alot.

I should say, all of this is my personal experience and opinion.

[melmichigan]

I am almost embarrassed to admit that this was the deal-breaker for me. No discussion questions for UG? I don't spend that much money on a curriculum to then have to pull discussion questions out of my over-tired brain.

Seriously. We went back to SOTW 3 for ds11 (which we love) and older dd is doing Core 100 lite (pick and choose on the literature and additional reading).

 

You do realize that there are discussion questions listed in the evaluation packages for LG and UG right? :)

[TXMary2]

I am almost embarrassed to admit that this was the deal-breaker for me. No discussion questions for UG? I don't spend that much money on a curriculum to then have to pull discussion questions out of my over-tired brain.

Seriously. We went back to SOTW 3 for ds11 (which we love) and older dd is doing Core 100 lite (pick and choose on the literature and additional reading).

 

 

I use the Evaluations for LG to have "discussions" with my LG student. It is more than sufficient.

[johnandtinagilbert]

You do realize that there are discussion questions listed in the evaluation packages for LG and UG right? :)

Well, there's a great idea :) We usually just do it in a few minutes as "review." I suppose I could drag it out a bit.

 

To the OP - what I didn't like about TOG was it's rigor. (gasp, shock - I know, we all search for it but we got a bit more than we asked for, lol)

 

I understand rigor to important but it - well - it just did us in. He succeeded at the dialectic level but at rhetoric the pace throughout each year we bombed and were totally burnt out by year 2.

 

There are similar choices in WTM but there she says 10 good, 12 better, 18 stellar or something like that. With TOG it's a new hard choice almost every week - four! Shakespeare plays in 5 weeks or something like that!

 

I know, I know, you can adjust the pace...mmhmm. To TOG's credit they did have charts that help you, but even then the pace and the workload was alot.

I should say, all of this is my personal experience and opinion.

Charts for cutting back...pray tell where I might find these.

[Quiver0f10]

 

Charts for cutting back...pray tell where I might find these.

 

 

I believe it in in the teaching rhetoric literature document on the loom. Look near the end of the document.

[momee]

Jean's right. They're on the loom. At least they are for years 1 and I think 2.

Wait, I can't remember if all years have them. Maybe it was just 2 because it was stinkin' nutso :0 oh sorry, I mean there was so much assigned, lol.

[Quiver0f10]

Jean's right. They're on the loom. At least they are for years 1 and I think 2.

Wait, I can't remember if all years have them. Maybe it was just 2 because it was stinkin' nutso :0 oh sorry, I mean there was so much assigned, lol.

 

We are doing year 3 and it has one.

[Leanna Tomlinson]

Jean's right. They're on the loom. At least they are for years 1 and I think 2.

Wait, I can't remember if all years have them. Maybe it was just 2 because it was stinkin' nutso :0 oh sorry, I mean there was so much assigned, lol.

 

Year 4 has one too.

 

There are actually three levels of cutting. I think cutting to the extreme level is plenty of literature for any high school student. We usually cut at the 2nd level, or make adjustments. For example,when there were so many Shakespeare plays, we cut one, read a summary of one, and watched one.

[lovinmomma]

I'm beginning to think that I don't have the loom. People keep referencing pages that aren't on my "online loom". Weird.

[melmichigan]

Year 4 has one too.

 

There are actually three levels of cutting. I think cutting to the extreme level is plenty of literature for any high school student. We usually cut at the 2nd level, or make adjustments. For example,when there were so many Shakespeare plays, we cut one, read a summary of one, and watched one.

 

I cannot find these on my loom either. Is there a particular heading? I did find the R Reading List, but not something that gives any levels to make adjustments. We are doing Y2.

[NotDaMama]

TOG started working for us (after trying twice and going back to SL each time) when I really started making it my own.

 

One thing I've loved about SL over the years, after doing cores up to Core 7 and part of 100, was the books. I love the relaxed style of reading great books together and learning in that way. But by Core 6, I felt like, although dd was reading great books, the piece we were missing was the synthesizing of information. I felt like she was reading, but we were not doing anything with that information. Unless I stayed two steps ahead of her in her reading and doing independent research on my own, I was not able to engage her in her history studies.

 

Shift to TOG, where choices abound and I have the resources and tools at my fingertips to fully engage and lead her in discussion, but they are so much more than I use that I feel overwhelmed and like a failure for not using it to the hilt.

 

After several attempts, I've found a very happy compromise. I love TOG in that it teaches me via teachers notes and, if I choose, history readings, enough so that I feel like I know what I'm talking about and discuss it with dc. It takes history in bite size chunks, lays out clear objectives for the week, and gives me lots of choices to meet those objectives. But they are just that - choices. I do not use many of them. I usually don't do any vocab or timeline; the dates I feel are very important I put on an index card and put in their memory work. I sometimes do the maps. I use some fo the writing assignments, but I use IEW to flesh them out. And, here's the thing, I don't use much of the reading selections. Sorry, but I love SL books, and I add in most of them to the period we're learning about. Many times I substitute history readings as well.

 

When I finally gave myself permission to use TOG in a way that worked for us, without having to feel like it wasn't worth it if I didn't use it to the fullest, we started thriving. It has given me the structure I need to focus on chunks of chronological history, with clear objectives every week, teachers notes that help educate ME, but do so in a less "academic" and more "CM/SL" sort of way.

 

So, back to the original post, no, I guess there's nothing that really annoys me so much. I just choose not to use the things I find particularly helpful in our homeschool.

 

Blessings,

Lisa

 

 

What does "SL" stand for? Thanks.

[Tracy]

You do realize that there are discussion questions listed in the evaluation packages for LG and UG right? :)

 

I use the Evaluations for LG to have "discussions" with my LG student. It is more than sufficient.

 

I had no idea. I have researched TOG for a year and was always told that there are no discussion questions for LG/UG.

 

Concerning the reasoning for not providing questions, I certainly understand not having Rhetoric-type discussions with G students. But the Socratic method is a way of teaching a concept that can be applied to any age. My science is Socratic, and it works beautifully with my 5yo. You simply ask a question such as, "If sound travels through the air, then when happens to sound in space where there is no air?" The Socratic method leads a child to come to his or her own conclusions rather than just telling them the answer and asking them to memorize it. I wouldn't change content of LG/UG. I would just want the questions to help them understand that content.

[johnandtinagilbert]

Jean's right. They're on the loom. At least they are for years 1 and I think 2.

Wait, I can't remember if all years have them. Maybe it was just 2 because it was stinkin' nutso :0 oh sorry, I mean there was so much assigned, lol.

:smilielol5:

 

I believe it in in the teaching rhetoric literature document on the loom. Look near the end of the document.

Thank you.

 

So, without looking for my lazy self, is the super cut back heavier than the D literature?

[Leanna Tomlinson]

I cannot find these on my loom either. Is there a particular heading? I did find the R Reading List, but not something that gives any levels to make adjustments. We are doing Y2.

 

Go to "Loom", then "Literature Helps", then "Teaching Rhetoric Literature". This is a long document. The cutting charts are some of the last pages.

 

HTH,

[Renaissance Mom]

So, without looking for my lazy self, is the super cut back heavier than the D literature?

 

Yes. You would still be using R level lit analysis skills just on fewer works. D lit has a different standard for the books themselves (some are abridged, tend to be less complex than R selections, etc.) and the lit analysis skills are being presented and used at a lower level than the R assignments. To help ease from one to another, the Lampstand Learning Center developed a couple of Bridge Level Lit classes this year using the D books (except unabridged) but with R lit analysis tools and skills.

[melmichigan]

I had no idea. I have researched TOG for a year and was always told that there are no discussion questions for LG/UG.

 

I bought it without knowing they existed. ;) I purchased the evaluations over the weekend when I happened across the samples while ordering the pop quiz CD for my DH. The LG are primarily oral discussion questions that you can then grade on a rubric to judge understanding if you so choose. The UG seem to fall in between and have more true and false, explain the false. I'm not sure if I will just use the LG, I'm not a fan of true and false, to much like PS. I like the D worksheets where they have to manipulate what they have learned. I wouldn't say they are necessarily socratic discussion questions, but general discussion questions.

 

I would suggest looking at the samples before you buy. :)

 

The literature worksheets seem to cover the discussion, I find myself just asking the questions off of them at this stage. All of my DC are working into the discussion from TOG, it is different than SL with all the lit. analysis. I am still getting the hang of how I am blending the two.

Edited September 30, 2010 by melmichigan

[Tracy]

I bought it without knowing they existed. ;) I purchased the evaluations over the weekend when I happened across the samples while ordering the pop quiz CD for my DH. The LG are primarily oral discussion questions that you can then grade on a rubric to judge understanding if you so choose. The UG seem to fall in between and have more true and false, explain the false. I'm not sure if I will just use the LG, I'm not a fan of true and false, to much like PS. I like the D worksheets where they have to manipulate what they have learned. I wouldn't say they are necessarily socratic discussion questions, but general discussion questions.

 

I would suggest looking at the samples before you buy. :)

 

I don't think that I could actually buy the Evaluations package if all I want is discussion questions for LG, if only out of principle. I think that Socratic discussions questions should be provided for all levels. I shouldn't have to pay more to get the questions for the lowest level when those questions are part of the core package for the upper levels.

[ABQmom]

To the OP - what I didn't like about TOG was it's rigor. (gasp, shock - I know, we all search for it but we got a bit more than we asked for, lol)

 

There are similar choices in WTM but there she says 10 good, 12 better, 18 stellar or something like that. With TOG it's a new hard choice almost every week - four!

 

Momee,

 

I always appreciate your comments and candor where TOG is concerned. Could you tell me what you mean by the above bolded text?

[lovinmomma]

Go to "Loom", then "Literature Helps", then "Teaching Rhetoric Literature". This is a long document. The cutting charts are some of the last pages.

 

HTH,

 

Hmmm... I don't think I have this OR I don't know where to find it. Does anyone have DE and know the steps to get to it?

[shanvan]

I don't think that I could actually buy the Evaluations package if all I want is discussion questions for LG, if only out of principle. I think that Socratic discussions questions should be provided for all levels. I shouldn't have to pay more to get the questions for the lowest level when those questions are part of the core package for the upper levels.

 

I agree that some questions would be nice for the lower levels and without having to pay extra! Actually it irks me a little that TOG sells so much separately. I really think maps should be part of the program, and evaluations too--but that is a whole separate issue.

 

While some principles of Socratic discussion can at times be applied to LG and especially to UG students, true Socratic discussion as a method works best with children who have reached the logic stage. The grammar years are best spent acquiring the information that will be later used for higher level thinking and making connections in true Socratic discussion form.

 

When I did my student teaching I was a big fan of the Socratic method. One day when my teaching was being evaluated, I used the Socratic method to try to logically lead the students to the points I wanted them to grasp. While I received an excellent evaluation, my advisor went on to tell me to stop trying to lead the kids to make connections and instead teach them the material they needed to learn. It was a somewhat hard pill for me to swallow, but over the years I found that was some of the best advice I ever received about teaching (for the lower grades). Sometimes we are so anxious to get to higher level thinking that we forget to focus on giving kids the information they need before expecting those logical connections to click. This is one of the things I like about the classical model. It truly seeks to match the teaching to the development of the child mind.

 

I think you can use some principles of the Socratic method in the younger years, especially as a way of leading up to Dialectic discussions. I just wanted to point out that Marcia has stated that she thinks the younger years are best spent acquiring information and that Socratic discussion is best suited for the D & R levels. Since that is the official philosophy behind TOG that is why those types of discussions aren't provided in the younger years.

 

Of course, we all adapt the program to fit our own philosophies, situations, and children. That's the beauty of homeschooling.:001_smile:

 

Shannon

[Leanna Tomlinson]

Hmmm... I don't think I have this OR I don't know where to find it. Does anyone have DE and know the steps to get to it?

 

1) Click on your Tapestry DE homepage

 

2) Click on Unit 1,(IF you were on The Loom the last time you were on DE, the Loom index will display on this page - proceed to step 4)

 

3) If you don't see the Loom index on the Unit page, click on the words on the bottom right that say "The Loom" (it's in big script letters) I have to scroll down a little to see "The Loom".

 

4)On "The Loom" there are several categories, the first one being "General Resources"

 

5) Scroll Down until you see "Literature Helps". It's the fourth category.

 

6) Under "Literature Helps", Click on the document entitled "Teaching Rhetoric Literature"

 

7) Scroll down the document entitled "Teaching Rhetoric Literature" until you see a chart at the end. This is the "cutting chart".

 

If you have Tapestry DE, you have this document. Many times I have missed something because I haven't scrolled down to the bottom of the page.

Let me know if you find it. :)

[melmichigan]

1) Click on your Tapestry DE homepage

 

2) Click on Unit 1,(IF you were on The Loom the last time you were on DE, the Loom index will display on this page - proceed to step 4)

 

3) If you don't see the Loom index on the Unit page, click on the words on the bottom right that say "The Loom" (it's in big script letters) I have to scroll down a little to see "The Loom".

 

4)On "The Loom" there are several categories, the first one being "General Resources"

 

5) Scroll Down until you see "Literature Helps". It's the fourth category.

 

6) Under "Literature Helps", Click on the document entitled "Teaching Rhetoric Literature"

 

7) Scroll down the document entitled "Teaching Rhetoric Literature" until you see a chart at the end. This is the "cutting chart".

 

If you have Tapestry DE, you have this document. Many times I have missed something because I haven't scrolled down to the bottom of the page.

Let me know if you find it. :)

 

I couldn't get this to work, I finally figured out that I need to allow ActiveX on my computer and then click on the Loom in fancy script on the right hand side of the page. That takes me to all the loom pages, from which I can follow the above directions. On my original page for Unit 1 I have a different format and the loom is at the bottom of the page, it has something to do with ActiveX, which I don't always enable. Hope that helps someone. :)

 

Anyway, I found it. Thank you!

Edited September 30, 2010 by melmichigan

[momee]

To Sydni -

thanks for the comment.

You asked me to explain this -

"There are similar choices in WTM but there she says 10 good, 12 better, 18 stellar or something like that. With TOG it's a new hard choice almost every week - four!

(I didn't finish the four part...four Shakespeare plays in 5 weeks I think.)

Sorry, I'm doing school and typing and drinking tea and rambling :)

 

TOG and WTM books are very similar. Compare them for yourself. They seem to be taken from the same general list of classical literature.

The difference between the two is really the pace and their method of literary analysis.

 

Note:

The works TOG uses aren't very clear just by looking on the bookshelf for rhetoric. They use Norton's Anthologies so you don't see exactly what's coming unless you have the actual year plan. If you look at the schedule for the year you will see what I mean in terms of pace.

 

I don't want to be more specific to protect TOG's copyright.

With WTM she recommends choosing a number of great works and working through them at a pace that suits the child, discussing them according to the method she lays out in the Well Educated Mind. This is not the same pace TOG has set with it's weekly assignments. Not only is there this high level of thinking required for literature, it's the same for history, philosophy and government.

 

I've three different teachers at our local high school who are friends of mine and look at TOG. All three have said that is waay more than the honors students would do in a year. One went so far as to say they did work like that in college, junior and senior years.

 

Does this help?

[ABQmom]

To Sydni -

thanks for the comment.

You asked me to explain this -

"There are similar choices in WTM but there she says 10 good, 12 better, 18 stellar or something like that. With TOG it's a new hard choice almost every week - four!

(I didn't finish the four part...four Shakespeare plays in 5 weeks I think.)

Sorry, I'm doing school and typing and drinking tea and rambling :)

 

TOG and WTM books are very similar. Compare them for yourself. They seem to be taken from the same general list of classical literature.

The difference between the two is really the pace and their method of literary analysis.

 

Note:

The works TOG uses aren't very clear just by looking on the bookshelf for rhetoric. They use Norton's Anthologies so you don't see exactly what's coming unless you have the actual year plan. If you look at the schedule for the year you will see what I mean in terms of pace.

 

I don't want to be more specific to protect TOG's copyright.

With WTM she recommends choosing a number of great works and working through them at a pace that suits the child, discussing them according to the method she lays out in the Well Educated Mind. This is not the same pace TOG has set with it's weekly assignments. Not only is there this high level of thinking required for literature, it's the same for history, philosophy and government.

 

I've three different teachers at our local high school who are friends of mine and look at TOG. All three have said that is waay more than the honors students would do in a year. One went so far as to say they did work like that in college, junior and senior years.

 

Does this help?

 

Yes, this helps. I actually have TOG year 1 that I borrowed for the year from a friend. I'm SO glad I've only borrowed it. I am committed to using it for the year to see if it is something I'd like to continue with. What I'm finding is that I'm tweaking it--a lot-- to suit our needs.

 

Actually, your comments are very helpful the more I think about it--thank you! When you say, "There are similar choices in WTM but there she says 10 good, 12 better, 18 stellar..." then you mean WTM suggests reading 10 books a year and that's good, 12 books are better, 18 would be stellar? I just wasn't clear on what the numbers were, but I see now you must mean numbers of books. I haven't looked through enough of TOG to see how many books are covered in a year--I'm still in a fog about what is actually going on in those pages anyway. :confused: But are there seriously a lot? I've just been looking at the history and literature, but even then, I'm not doing it all. I do think TOG rhetoric is over my dd's head (9th grade). I planned on having her do the rhetoric stuff, but I find myself assigning dialectic material instead.

 

I need to look at the WTM again and see what you are referring to. I know I've read threads before where you've commented, but I can't remember what you are using now. Do you mind me asking? What are you using instead of TOG and how is that going?

[momee]

"I'm SO glad I've only borrowed it. I am committed to using it for the year to see if it is something I'd like to continue with."

This is a great plan. It is an amazing curricula but not all kids are geared toward using it. Glad this is a workable option for you. Have you tried the writing with TOG? It is amazing. Very thorough. It gives you excellent tools to assess their progress and teach them to self-correct. I sometimes wish I were still doing TOG because of the writing but hey, I'm not supposed to dwell on the past lol.

 

"When you say, "There are similar choices in WTM but there she says 10 good, 12 better, 18 stellar..." then you mean WTM suggests reading 10 books a year and that's good, 12 books are better, 18 would be stellar?"

Yes, sorry. I type like I talk and that's not always easy to understand :lol:. Those are numbers of books to read in a year. I'm not sure those are her exact words or that I have the numbers and descriptions exactly right and can't find it right now in the book. It might be in the older edition and not in the new one I'm reading now?

 

"But are there seriously a lot?"

According to the TOG Scope and Sequence chart the rhetoric choices for lit - year 1 totals 25 titles and year 2 totals 35. Some examples are Gilgamesh, Bhagavad Gita, Iliad, Odyssey, bible as poetry, Agamemnon, Libation Bearers, Eumenides, etc. :))))) from year 1 and that's just lit and not all the year 1 lit at that.

 

..."but I can't remember what you are using now. Do you mind me asking? What are you using instead of TOG and how is that going? " My oldest just enrolled in community college :001_huh: so best laid plans are up in the air.

He was using Sonlight and I'll say right here he enjoyed it much more. Who wouldn't? I mean Murder on the Orient Express and some edge of your seat missionary stories or Doctor Faustus then four Shakespeare plays? I have felt the tangible WORK of TOG is greater, compared to Sonlight because they use a different style of teaching than TOG. With TOG it was a weekly assesment, indepth mapwork, discussion questions, lit analysis, etc. In my limited experience with SL it seems it's more reading based.

 

My 4th and 7th graders are using Sonlight. They love it. Again I am struggling with the workload being "lighter".

 

I actually started this thread that may be of use to you since you're asking...

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172079&highlight=bake+bread

Edited September 30, 2010 by momee

[lovinmomma]

1) Click on your Tapestry DE homepage

 

2) Click on Unit 1,(IF you were on The Loom the last time you were on DE, the Loom index will display on this page - proceed to step 4)

 

3) If you don't see the Loom index on the Unit page, click on the words on the bottom right that say "The Loom" (it's in big script letters) I have to scroll down a little to see "The Loom".

 

4)On "The Loom" there are several categories, the first one being "General Resources"

 

5) Scroll Down until you see "Literature Helps". It's the fourth category.

 

6) Under "Literature Helps", Click on the document entitled "Teaching Rhetoric Literature"

 

7) Scroll down the document entitled "Teaching Rhetoric Literature" until you see a chart at the end. This is the "cutting chart".

 

If you have Tapestry DE, you have this document. Many times I have missed something because I haven't scrolled down to the bottom of the page.

Let me know if you find it. :)

 

YEA! I found it! Mine was called Customizing Y1 Rhetoric Literature , but I think it's the same thing. THANK YOU!

[ABQmom]

not all the year 1 lit at that.

My 4th and 7th graders are using Sonlight. They love it. Again I am struggling with the workload being "lighter".

I actually started this thread that may be of use to you since you're asking...

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172079&highlight=bake+bread

 

Ya know, I remember seeing this thread, but at the time, I didn't want to read anymore about Sonlight! I think I'll pop over there tonight and read through that exact thread. Thanks! And, thanks so much for your thoughts on TOG.

[momee]

I've just finished listening to these two audios and think they may be helpful to those of us engaged in this thread looking at some of the issues raised in it.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/what-is-literary-analysis-mp3.html

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/great-books-history-as-literature-mp3.html

 

One of the comments SWB made toward the end of the Great Books as History stuck with me. She says we don't need to buy a lit. curricula. We just need a library and a spine. She wants the kids to think of history and lit with affection and enjoyment. I can honestly tell you I felt major mom guilt when I heard that.

 

This is the exact opposite reaction my son had to his high school lit and history study. He is a fantastic reader and I think was moving toward being a deep thinker. He's been exposed to excellent lit and we've had WTM lists around here for a while, but not stuck to them. I felt I needed a curricula, thus our shift to TOG.

 

But, his idea of "oh no, not another book to read to write a paper on" is a far cry from SWB's vision of the kid's reading and enjoying and guiding themselves through these books.

 

She echoes the same thing in her Literary Analysis lecture, she says she couldn't think of a single reading curricula she would rec. That we "need only a list".

 

Listen to her audios. They're very worthy of the time and the $3.99. It will help if nothing else get you thinking of some specific things you want to see or not in your own homeschool.

HTH

ps hoping not to sound like I've got it all figured out, just thinking out loud and hoping to share some btdt with others who seem interested. I'm not slamming TOG or advocating WTM solely and hope not to be taken as doing so. It's just that these topics I've written about play out very practically in my son's education right this moment. He really dislikes history and lit and this change makes me sad.

 

Susan says she wishes her freshman college students had been given an education like what she suggests. Her experience as both a professor with practical experience and a homeschool mom make me stop and think she just may know what she speaks about :)

She says many of students get to college and can't think on their own. This is a problem I'd not like to see my kid's struggle with.

Edited October 2, 2010 by momee

[~Jo]

Thanks...I'm really struggling with some of these issues in our home also. I bought those two mp3's. I think my biggest problem is not only are we doing a new curriculum - we are also changing our philosophy of schooling. Those types of changes don't just happen overnight and I don't need to be discouraged or think something is not working just because I need to "tweak" things or even radically change what we are doing.

 

Well I got one to download - it seems the whole "store" is having an issue right now...so hopefully I can listen to this one and when I'm done the other will be able to download, LOL. :D

[melmichigan]

But, his idea of "oh no, not another book to read to write a paper on" is a far cry from SWB's vision of the kid's reading and enjoying and guiding themselves through these books.

 

I guess I need to listen to these and go back and read WTM again. I just finished reading Rhetoric and was sure that she goes through what to cover with each great book starting with the book contents, book notes, and compositions, before she lists the books by grade and chronological order. That is certainly not just sitting down and guiding themselves. :) I am looking for a happy medium and just spent a good deal of time comparing all the TOG lists, SL lists, and WTM lists, and where they overlap, so maybe I'm just confused. :confused:

[momee]

Melissa, you are right.

You said " just finished reading Rhetoric and was sure that she goes through what to cover with each great book starting with the book contents, book notes, and compositions, before she lists the books by grade and chronological order. That is certainly not just sitting down and guiding themselves. :) "

You are right, she does, you're on the right track.

 

I am not communicating clearly so ignore me. I really am just getting my mind around so much of this and I'm not doing a good job of summarizing SWB's thoughts. I'm also not doing a good job of posting here. Thinking out loud needs to happen off the boards. I need to just think a while. It's all too much for my little brain to take in, lol.

 

I shouldn't have said they are guiding themselves through. Scratch that. Really you should listen to Susan as she's a much better communicator than I am.

 

I think my issue was that I missed the enjoyment factor and fell too much to the pressure to analyze. Using TOG's weekly schedule I made the mistake of

1) rushing through some very heavy works

2) not picking some lighter choices

3) not giving my guy permission to just read the book for exposure

 

As Marcia herself would tell you, don't let the curricula be your master. I did.

Edited October 2, 2010 by momee

[trisharog]

So , maybe I am a little thick here, but i dont understand the comment that a poster said SWB made. " You only need a library and a spine, not a curriculum". How do you just give a kid a book but not have direction on what you want him to pull out of it?

 

Trisha

[momee]

It's in the Great Books as History audio download. She was speaking about how we didn't need a curriculum. She made reference to LLfLOTR I think about how it takes a book and analyzes it too much. So she was saying how really all you needed a spine to guide through history and a library card. I don't know if she meant only in the younger grades now that I think back on it, but I thought she was referring to all 3 levels, grammar dialectic and rhetoric.

She said, "let's be honest here - how much do they actually remember anyway." Maybe she only meant younger grades. I can go back and listen again.

 

Confusing? That's what I mean. That's why this is such a paradigm shift in my thinking about history/literature and homeschooling my kids.

 

It just doesn't fit with what I thought homeschooling had to be. I thought I needed teacher's notes, thinking questions, etc. to be able to get my kid's through these years. I thought I had to buy a specific version to match TOG's weekly rec. and so that they can have the right book to answer the questions specifically. That got to be expensive and alot of work. I thought if he couldn't do the analysis as written in TOG at that level (which he most definitely could not) that we weren't doing well.

 

She's saying we don't need to buy all that. I'd like to think she's right, her method is much cheaper! Really, you have to listen yourself. She makes it seem so easy.

 

This is also getting off topic of the thread. Maybe a new one should be posted so that the real WTM smarties (and hopefully SWB herself) can chime in with much more wisdom and experience. I'm too new at it to help, lol.

Edited October 2, 2010 by momee