What in TOG don't you like?

[melmichigan]

I shouldn't have said they are guiding themselves through. Scratch that. Really you should listen to Susan as she's a much better communicator than I am.

 

I think my issue was that I missed the enjoyment factor and fell too much to the pressure to analyze. Using TOG's weekly schedule I made the mistake of

1) rushing through some very heavy works

2) not picking some lighter choices

3) not giving my guy permission to just read the book for exposure

 

As Marcia herself would tell you, don't let the curricula be your master. I did.

 

I will put them on my list. :)

 

Thank you for sharing what hasn't worked for you. Luckily I have yet to and frankly have abandoned the hope in finding the "right" curriculum for us and am now in the process of adapting a few curriculum together, my best of each I guess you could say (WTM, SL, and TOG).

 

I think it does us all good to pause once in a while and look at the big picture, to evaluate, and to remember who is the teacher.;)

 

It is a fine balancing act between depth, rigor, and pleasure in learning. You give great advice, in the end I want my children to read as they grow, if only for the love of reading. (Hope that makes sense.)

 

As to the OP, TOG for me is an outline. It's up to me to write the composition. :D

Edited October 2, 2010 by melmichigan

[siloam]

So , maybe I am a little thick here, but i dont understand the comment that a poster said SWB made. " You only need a library and a spine, not a curriculum". How do you just give a kid a book but not have direction on what you want him to pull out of it?

 

Trisha

 

SL users do it all the time. :D (Not saying it is good or bad, just that it happens.)

 

Though on the other hand some of the TOG Lit worksheets would be hard for me to do as an adult. I love reading through the answer key, but I can't imagine giving it as an assignment to be done in a week. Maybe the ones I saw were for multiple weeks or have been modified in the Redesign.

 

To date I have made TOG work for my by taking up to 4 weeks to cover one TOG Week. My average is probably 2 weeks on a TOG week. But now that my oldest is approaching High School I find I don't want to continue to stretch like that. Thus I am going to have to cut, IF I want it to be enjoyable for my kids. My kids just aren't the read 1000 pages in a classic and love it type. Classic books just don't click with them that much. They could in a book that they adored, but with the classics, to date, they enjoy but not love them. If I am going to with the long term battle of enjoying their learning I am going to have to cut from TOG.

 

Once you start modifying and cutting the question comes, "Are you really getting your money's worth?" For me yes, because I really do want the analytical piece that TOG provides, even through I will probably never use TOG to it's fullest or even as it is intended. ;) Many people get tired over time and just can't continue, either because they are doing too much, or are modifying and are tired of feeling...they aren't doing it right, what they are doing isn't good enough, because other people's kids seem to do it all without blinking, and that they are somehow gaining a sub par education because they don't do TOG the way it was designed on schedule, KWIM? There is nothing worse than guilt.

 

I think what Susan is trying to do is take that sort of guilt off, and empower the Mom to use a variety of tools. Read some easy books, do a book report here, just read a classic and do nothing there, but also Mom reads an occasional book then and you really do in-depth analysis. Take more of a measured approach that doesn't put a weight on Mom. I find that an on-going theme with SWB and her audio's.

 

Heather

[ABQmom]

I've just finished listening to these two audios and think they may be helpful to those of us engaged in this thread looking at some of the issues raised in it.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/what-is-literary-analysis-mp3.html

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/great-books-history-as-literature-mp3.html

 

One of the comments SWB made toward the end of the Great Books as History stuck with me. She says we don't need to buy a lit. curricula. We just need a library and a spine. She wants the kids to think of history and lit with affection and enjoyment. I can honestly tell you I felt major mom guilt when I heard that.

 

This is the exact opposite reaction my son had to his high school lit and history study. He is a fantastic reader and I think was moving toward being a deep thinker. He's been exposed to excellent lit and we've had WTM lists around here for a while, but not stuck to them. I felt I needed a curricula, thus our shift to TOG.

 

But, his idea of "oh no, not another book to read to write a paper on" is a far cry from SWB's vision of the kid's reading and enjoying and guiding themselves through these books.

 

She echoes the same thing in her Literary Analysis lecture, she says she couldn't think of a single reading curricula she would rec. That we "need only a list".

 

Listen to her audios. They're very worthy of the time and the $3.99. It will help if nothing else get you thinking of some specific things you want to see or not in your own homeschool.

HTH

ps hoping not to sound like I've got it all figured out, just thinking out loud and hoping to share some btdt with others who seem interested. I'm not slamming TOG or advocating WTM solely and hope not to be taken as doing so. It's just that these topics I've written about play out very practically in my son's education right this moment. He really dislikes history and lit and this change makes me sad.

 

Susan says she wishes her freshman college students had been given an education like what she suggests. Her experience as both a professor with practical experience and a homeschool mom make me stop and think she just may know what she speaks about :)

She says many of students get to college and can't think on their own. This is a problem I'd not like to see my kid's struggle with.

 

Momee,

 

Thank you so much for posting this. I have been thinking some of the exact same things--only you put into words what I have been mulling over in my mind. I need to get the history as lit. audio--I didn't know that was there until yesterday, but it sounds like something that will further my thinking.

 

When I was in school, I loved reading until I hit high school. And just like SWB says, I gathered that books were a puzzle, and my teacher had the answer. My job was to figure out the puzzle. This kind of thinking killed my love for reading. I hated every book assigned to me---the very ones that I hear people saying that they loved. I felt sure I was never going to "get it", so why try? Why enjoy the book? It wasn't to be enjoyed; it was to be "figured out".

 

Wow! Keep these discussions coming.

[ABQmom]

Once you start modifying and cutting the question comes, "Are you really getting your money's worth?" For me yes, because I really do want the analytical piece that TOG provides, even through I will probably never use TOG to it's fullest or even as it is intended. ;) Many people get tired over time and just can't continue, either because they are doing too much, or are modifying and are tired of feeling...they aren't doing it right, what they are doing isn't good enough, because other people's kids seem to do it all without blinking, and that they are somehow gaining a sub par education because they don't do TOG the way it was designed on schedule, KWIM? There is nothing worse than guilt.

 

I think what Susan is trying to do is take that sort of guilt off, and empower the Mom to use a variety of tools. Read some easy books, do a book report here, just read a classic and do nothing there, but also Mom reads an occasional book then and you really do in-depth analysis. Take more of a measured approach that doesn't put a weight on Mom. I find that an on-going theme with SWB and her audio's.

 

Heather[/color]

 

Heather,

This too is very helpful for me. Thanks for posting.

 

I have been cutting TOG like crazy, and I think what it comes down to for me is: Do I really want to spend that much money on something when I am cutting out stuff like crazy?

 

I really think that I can do this history and lit thing on my own after listening to SWB's audios. I think my dc and I both would be much happier. And, as someone else said, it is cheaper, and easier--or so it seems to me.

[siloam]

Heather,

This too is very helpful for me. Thanks for posting.

 

I have been cutting TOG like crazy, and I think what it comes down to for me is: Do I really want to spend that much money on something when I am cutting out stuff like crazy?

 

I really think that I can do this history and lit thing on my own after listening to SWB's audios. I think my dc and I both would be much happier. And, as someone else said, it is cheaper, and easier--or so it seems to me.

 

Then let go, and be happy with your decision. You have made a good choice for your goals that will at times be in depth, but not all the time like TOG. That isn't a bad choice, it is a smart use of time and money for the benefit.

 

Heather

[SewLittleTime]

She says we don't need to buy a lit. curricula. We just need a library and a spine. She wants the kids to think of history and lit with affection and enjoyment. I can honestly tell you I felt major mom guilt when I heard that.

 

I think I read this on the WTM site the other night, but of course, I can't find where I read it. It really made me think. I'm guessing SL would be lumped into the lit curricula category.

 

I'm going to check out those downloads of SWB's. I already started rereading TWTM again.

[ABQmom]

I think I read this on the WTM site the other night, but of course, I can't find where I read it. It really made me think. I'm guessing SL would be lumped into the lit curricula category.

 

I'm going to check out those downloads of SWB's. I already started rereading TWTM again.

 

What I discovered about SL is that I love, love, love the books they choose. I did NOT like the assignments that went with it. It felt like busy work. And the comprehension questions seemed ridiculous to us. I'd ask the question and dd would look at me like "Why are you asking us such obvious questions?"

 

All that to say that next year, I'm thinking of using the books SL picks and doing our own thing with them--the SWB thing. :)

[SewLittleTime]

What I discovered about SL is that I love, love, love the books they choose. I did NOT like the assignments that went with it. It felt like busy work. And the comprehension questions seemed ridiculous to us. I'd ask the question and dd would look at me like "Why are you asking us such obvious questions?"

 

All that to say that next year, I'm thinking of using the books SL picks and doing our own thing with them--the SWB thing. :)

We love the books they choose as well. I cried at the one we just finished. I don't ask all the questions in the guide. We usually discuss later.

 

Are the assignments your talking about in the upper levels?

[ABQmom]

We love the books they choose as well. I cried at the one we just finished. I don't ask all the questions in the guide. We usually discuss later.

 

Are the assignments your talking about in the upper levels?

 

I'm talking about core 7.

[SewLittleTime]

I'm talking about core 7.

Gotcha ya! Figured it must be some the cores we haven't done yet.