Do older children find AAS babyish?

[Guest aquiverfull]

I'm accelerating Phonics Road with an 11 year old. She struggles with spelling. I'm pretty sure she is dyslexic though she has not been formally diagnosed. At this point I don't know that I want to switch to AAS, but I'm curious what older users of the program think.

 

My dd's complaint with PR, since we've had to go back to level one is that "it is babyish". She absolutely hates the rule tunes because she feels they are babyish and she refuses to sing them. I sing them for her, and I see her rolling her eyes.

 

If I'm understanding correctly, I'd have to begin AAS back at level 1 as well. Will she also find AAS babyish? I've spent a lot of money on PR 1 and 2, so I'm hesitant to spend more money on something else that is very similar.

 

Thanks!

[Quad Shot Academy]

I don't find anything babyish about AAS level 1, besides the words are easy. I wouldn't start with level 1 for an 11 year old unless her spelling is on a second grade level. There is a placement test on the website.

[siloam]

My 12yo doesn't find it babyish. Though I only use the tiles when demonstrating concepts, and she does her spelling words on paper. There are no jingles or such. BTW I actually don't like them for dyselxic students because music is stored in a different part of the brain, and the only way to recall it is to sign it. A dyslexic student would not want to be caught singing under their breath (they are already sensitive), so they would rather spell it wrong than use that as a tool. I am a diagnosed visual dyslexic, so I know this from personal experience. :D

 

A lot of dyslexic students have success with AAS. PR is also a strong program for dyslexic students, but there are certain group that have problems with the volume of information presented. They really need to learn and master one concept at a time. AAS does cover one topic at a time to mastery.

 

Heather

[PeterPan]

Does Beers have a money back guarantee on PR? Your resale value will be good. No matter what, drop the tunes, mercy. You can chant the rule or just say it.

 

AAS has a money back guarantee if you buy it from the author. I just ordered my materials, for the same age dc. I think it will be fine. I will say though that I suggest you start looking at underlying problems causing the dyslexia or spelling problems. I've been told many dyslexics will benefit from vision therapy. Just what I've heard. In any case, I taught my dd with SWR for 5 years (also tried PR and other things during that time), and it never really would stick right, no matter how we tried. She's ok and she reads, but it has never been RIGHT. Actually, she couldn't even sound out words, despite being a very good reader. The VT has made huge progress with that, and now she sees the individual letters in words, has started asking letter sounds, and even tries to sound out words for herself. They retested her today and her visual memory (which is of course a huge chunk of spelling) remains very poor, despite her improvements in focusing. They're now shifting gears and going to start working on visual processing, more therapy, joy.

 

So anyways, I wouldn't assume a magic curriculum is going to solve everything. I'd start looking into the underlying problems and getting some analysis and therapy. It's making a huge difference here and explaining a lot in the things we haven't fixed yet and are still plagued by.

[Guest aquiverfull]

Thank you all for the replies...

 

Quad Shot Academy- I didn't realize there was a placement test on the AAS site. I thought all students start with level 1. Thanks.

 

Heather- you are sooooo right. My dd will not sing those songs, she wouldn't be caught dead doing them...lol. And yes, she is highly sensitive. Thanks for the extra information about dyslexia and how the brain works. :)

 

Oh Elizabeth- you have given me a lot to think about. My dd is the same way. She will not sound out new words that she doesn't know. She spells at 4th grade level according to an SWR diagnostic test (she's in 6th). When she tries to spell, she also uses visual memory. I tell her to sound out the word, she won't do it. She just sits there and tells me she's trying to remember what it should look like. She often leaves out vowels when spelling words.

 

My dd is also the same as your dd in the reading department. She does ok with reading. She has more trouble when she has to read something out loud vs to herself. She has many signs of dyslexia. I've wrestled with the benefits of a formal diagnosis. I just don't know what a formal diagnosis would accomplish, you know what I mean? However, you have given me some great examples in ways that it could help. So I'm going to talk it over again with my husband.

 

Are you planning on going back to level 1 with AAS? I don't know if PR has a money back guarantee or not, but I'll most likely keep it for now anyways since I have younger children that might eventually use it.

 

Thanks for all the support and encouragement! :)

[dani3boys]

I started using level one of AAS with my then 11yo twin boys back in January. I explained to them that the levels do not correspond with grade levels. We are currently on level four, so they are happy that they have made progress. We are still using the tiles, and they don't seem to mind.

I think it's important to start with level one even if it seems too easy. It lays the groundwork for the following levels.

[Guest aquiverfull]

Thanks for sharing your experience Danielle. :)

[johnandtinagilbert]

Just wanted to second the saying the tunes instead of singing them.

 

Would she sand write or finger paint words? Somehow, I think the touch sensation vs. writing sensation may help with her mental visualization. Would she find this too babyish?

 

Keep in mind, this will toughen up really fast and furious (since you're accelerating) in levels 2 & 3. My 5th grader is currently in 3 and there is nothing babyish about it.

 

:grouphug:

[8filltheheart]

I'm accelerating Phonics Road with an 11 year old. She struggles with spelling. I'm pretty sure she is dyslexic though she has not been formally diagnosed. At this point I don't know that I want to switch to AAS, but I'm curious what older users of the program think.

 

My dd's complaint with PR, since we've had to go back to level one is that "it is babyish". She absolutely hates the rule tunes because she feels they are babyish and she refuses to sing them. I sing them for her, and I see her rolling her eyes.

 

If I'm understanding correctly, I'd have to begin AAS back at level 1 as well. Will she also find AAS babyish? I've spent a lot of money on PR 1 and 2, so I'm hesitant to spend more money on something else that is very similar.

 

Thanks!

 

Yes, my ds did find AAS babyish and the word levels too easy. He already knew the phonics rules and the rules don't help the types of words he was misspelling.

 

Apples and Pears (which is a morpheme/phoneme) approach made him much more aware of word construction and did improve his spelling.

[Homeschooling6]

I didn't read all the replies, but can you not sing the rule tunes? Is she working out of a notebook instead of the binder? Mrs. Beers said, they don't need to use the binder, just a notebook.

 

For the record, my ds thought AAS was babyish :( he couldn't stand it. This is why I stopped using it with him. Maybe I should have just continued on....sigh.....

[MerryAtHope]

I started my kids when they were ages 9 and 11. The design of the materials is not babyish. As some people have mentioned, the words start very simply. With older beginners, though, you don't need to make them spell the words until they hit lists that they don't know. Tell an older specifically, "I know you know these words, so we're not spending our time on them. We're going to fill in the gaps about some of the rules that you may not know--so we are going to figure out where those gaps might be."

 

Teach the concept, have them demonstrate it back, and if they get it and know all of the words, move on to the next step.

 

With your background in PR, I wouldn't think you would need to start in Level 1. Here's a link to the FAQ about starting in 1 or 2. I tried to start in 2, then realized my kids had some gaps from 1, so went back and filled those in. But we only took about 3 weeks to do that whole level as they didn't need to practice the words. Fast track until you hit words they don't know or a concept they really struggle with. I'd also encourage you to look at the scope & sequence for each level & see if 2 is the right placement. 2 has lots of syllable rules, so if you don't have a lot of practice with those in PR, I'd start there. But if you do and if your 11 yo knows the phonograms & rules from that level, you may even be able to start higher. So, after looking at the placement test, look at the scope & sequence links. You can find those on the page for each level.

 

One final thing that I would tell your daughter until she begins to understand it--spelling is BOTH visual and auditory. If she is relying purely on visual strategies, she is making it harder for herself. She needs to also use auditory strategies. Let her know that you don't want spelling to be so difficult for her, so you are going to be teaching her those auditory strategies as well (like segmenting etc...). Maybe you can make a breakthrough by helping her to understand what she's missing.

 

Merry :-)

[Veritaserum]

My 10yo doesn't find AAS babyish. She is in level 5 now, but didn't start AAS until she was toward the end of third grade.

[PeterPan]

Kelli, I would think more specifically about what you're wanting to diagnose. The medical profession segments up everything. So you have one person to look at their eyes and diagnose vision processing or focusing or convergence problems (developmental optometrist from covd). Another person looks at their ears. Another person looks at their sensory system (OT). Another person looks at their IQ, brains, and how they actually think (psychologist doing a full battery of testing). Each thing costs money and each thing is separate. I think it would be fascinating and helpful to get the full battery psych testing they do, simply because it's clear I don't understand how dd's brain works. However it is pricey and is best done with someone with a lot of experience with kids like yours. I haven't found someone like that and haven't had the money lying around (too many things looking for it!), so it hasn't happened. But having the evaluation with a developmental optometrist, THAT has been life-changing. Now some problems are like a stick that multiple practitioners grab a hold of from different ends. Right now with the visual processing, both the OT and VT (vision therapy) work on it, though they come at it from different angles.

 

I've read some dyslexics have auditory processing problems and others have visual processing problems. That accounts, to me, for the huge spread in symptoms you hear about. Some kids don't even hear the correlation of sound to written, not at all. That's why it doesn't work to take a generally good program like PR and hope it will remediate these kids. You still haven't identified WHY their brains are not connecting with it. And I'll say you can teach them till you're BLUE in the face, with all the best curriculum, and still not have it connect if the kids brains and eyes and ears are not connecting.

 

There's a limit to what they can do with their visual memory, even in a bright kid. I kept getting funny looks from people when I said my dd is dyslexic, because they assumed it meant she couldn't read. Well a really really bright kid who is a visual learner MIGHT keep up for a while, basically read whole words, gulp whole words of spelling, and cover over their problems. But eventually it catches up with them. Our VT lady said that limit for most people is around 10,000 words. I could be remembering incorrectly, but there's a limit, a point where the visual methods give out and they HAVE to go back and fix things or hit a wall. For us, VT is building the skills to get us over that wall. For some other kid it might be another processing area or issue.

 

The point is, it's not really general testing to identify dyslexia, so much as figuring out what her specific issues are. That's what I'm suggesting. I think you could go to multiple psychologists and get multiple diagnoses, especially on these more nuanced cases (2E, bright but with issues). But actually finding problems and working on them is helping us. They had specific tasks in our VT exercises that worked on the ability to look at words and see each and every letter in the word. There are specific things they do that work for this; it's not some vague shooting in the dark thing.

 

Keep researching. I keep trying to learn and connect the dots, and I STILL don't get it, lol. :)

[Guest aquiverfull]

Thank you everyone for the replies. They have been helpful.

 

Tina--I had already stopped singing the tunes a few days before I asked this and unfortunately she doesn't even want me to say them. Too bad, I feel it's important she learn them, so I will continue saying them. Yes, I think she'd probably find the activity you mentioned babyish. She's so serious about everything! I figured PR will pick up. In PR 2 we'll get to words she doesn't know how to spell so I think that's where I'll actually begin to see the fruits of our labor.

 

8filltheheart-- Thanks so much for sharing your experiences and I've never really looked at Apples and Pears, maybe it's time I give it a good looking over. :)

 

Linda (homeschooling6)-- Yes, I'm saving the student binder for my 5 year old when the time comes. I think it's that she already knows how to spell all the words in this level and she just hates the rule tunes even when I don't sing them. Thanks for sharing your experience with Josh and AAS. :)

 

Merry- Thank you so much for the wealth of information you shared. :)

I will look into the link you included. I didn't realize I wouldn't necessarily have to start in Level 1 with AAS. I guess what makes PR babyish to her is the rule tunes. I thought they would be helpful in helping her to remember, but she really dislikes them and wants nothing to do with them. So I don't know. I wonder if this is really going to help her. I need to do as you suggested and make her understand that she must not rely solely on visual strategies which I know she is definitely doing. I like the way you explained things so I'm going to tell her that. Right now, I'm going to at least finish out PR 1. Then I'm going to really look over PR 2 and make my decision to switch or not. Thank you again.

 

Veritaserum-- thank you for sharing your experience.

 

Oh E- Thank you for explaining how things work. I figured a diagnosis would be a long, hard road. Frankly, I don't even know where to start. How would I even go about these things? Should I talk to her general physician first??

I knew it was a struggle for her to learn to read, she was 8 before she was really reading fluently. She still has trouble reading smoothly when reading out loud, but she does much better when reading silently. She reads pretty quickly that way and her comprehension is good. She's always had difficulty spelling.

 

I never even thought about dyslexia until I was reading a website with the symptoms and realized how many she had. I was actually looking for my 4 year old. I think she may have some learning disabilities, she struggles more than any of my children when they were her age. Maybe she's just a late bloomer, I feel it may be too early to tell yet. But my mother intuition tells me something is not quite right.

 

I've read some dyslexics have auditory processing problems and others have visual processing problems. That accounts, to me, for the huge spread in symptoms you hear about. Some kids don't even hear the correlation of sound to written, not at all. That's why it doesn't work to take a generally good program like PR and hope it will remediate these kids. You still haven't identified WHY their brains are not connecting with it. And I'll say you can teach them till you're BLUE in the face, with all the best curriculum, and still not have it connect if the kids brains and eyes and ears are not connecting.

 

I understand what you saying. I was afraid of that. I can see her mind is not connecting with some of the things we are going over with PR. I don't know if it's because she's still relying solely on the visual strategies like Merry mentioned, or because she finds it all too babyish and is purposely blocking it out. She's so serious about everything. She doesn't tolerate silly, and I think that's why she has such an aversion to those rule tunes. I had quit singing them a few days before I wrote this. Yet, I think it's too late, as she's already doomed them silly and is totally uninterested.

 

Again, thank you for your very helpful reply. I will definitely keep researching, talk it over with my husband, and pray, pray, pray. :)

[EKS]

I used AAS levels 1-4 last year with my then 13 yo. I do think it helped him, but he was constantly complaining about it being babyish. And it is. I do *not* recommend it for older kids for this reason. However, if you're going to use it, I do recommend that you start with level 1.

 

I'm hoping that the author comes out with a version for older kids.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

I used AAS levels 1-4 last year with my then 13 yo. I do think it helped him, but he was constantly complaining about it being babyish. And it is. I do *not* recommend it for older kids for this reason. However, if you're going to use it, I do recommend that you start with level 1.

 

I'm hoping that the author comes out with a version for older kids.

Have you tried emailing her? I don't think it will happen but you never know, and if she hears from several who want a version specifically for older children perhaps that will make a difference. Right now she is working on All About Reading so if it was a possibility it probably wouldn't happen right away.

 

My 14 yo ds balked at first but when he realized that he had forgotten many of the rules in Level 1 he stopped complaining because he realized it was necessary.

[MerryAtHope]

Have you tried emailing her? I don't think it will happen but you never know, and if she hears from several who want a version specifically for older children perhaps that will make a difference. Right now she is working on All About Reading so if it was a possibility it probably wouldn't happen right away.

 

My 14 yo ds balked at first but when he realized that he had forgotten many of the rules in Level 1 he stopped complaining because he realized it was necessary.

 

She has said she has plans for one--just not sure when yet!

 

Merry :-)

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

She has said she has plans for one--just not sure when yet!

 

Merry :-)

Thanks Merry! Is there any possibility she might work on it at the same time as AAR? Unfortunately, unless she is releasing it now it won't be in time for my older students.

[MerryAtHope]

Thanks Merry! Is there any possibility she might work on it at the same time as AAR? Unfortunately, unless she is releasing it now it won't be in time for my older students.

 

Right now she's got 2 readers, AAR Pre-1, AAR Level 1, and AAS Level 7 in the works. I don't know how she does all of that, LOL! Basically it's too far out for her to have on a schedule yet, but it's definitely on her radar.

 

Merry :-)

[AllBoys]

I have been considering this for two of my boys, 9 and 12. We are all natural spellers and they just learned to read and spell early and easily. We have done spelling almost every year but with workbooks, not a program like this. So, none of us has retained the rules. I emailed her last week and she said since they were older we could consider level 2. I looked at level 1 and I could not have told you that c says s if it is followed by e, i, or y. I probably could pronounce it correctly but I don't know why b/c none of us know these rules.

 

I think I should try a program like this even though the boys are older. I see some people don't recommend it b/c of it being babyish. Is there something similar we could use? Do you all think it would be worth it to learn this at the boys' ages?

[siloam]

I have been considering this for two of my boys, 9 and 12. We are all natural spellers and they just learned to read and spell early and easily. We have done spelling almost every year but with workbooks, not a program like this. So, none of us has retained the rules. I emailed her last week and she said since they were older we could consider level 2. I looked at level 1 and I could not have told you that c says s if it is followed by e, i, or y. I probably could pronounce it correctly but I don't know why b/c none of us know these rules.

 

I think I should try a program like this even though the boys are older. I see some people don't recommend it b/c of it being babyish. Is there something similar we could use? Do you all think it would be worth it to learn this at the boys' ages?

I love AAS and highly recommend it, but with those ages and natural spellers, unless they are hands on learners, I would head towards Megawords.

 

Level 2 of AAS does briefly review the rules in level 1. I can't remember if there are key cards on the rules through so that you review it through the whole book, and can't get to my level 2 stuff right now to check. (Note to self: must clean up that unstable looking stack of stuff.) :eek:

 

Heather

[PeterPan]

Kelli, I would keep working on the diagnosis angle before you chose more curriculum. Also, not to freak you out, but with your comment about not liking things silly, I would also do a fuzz of reading about aspies and auditory processing disorder. These things overlap a lot, and you could think you're dealing with dyslexia when really it's auditory processing disorder or autism. And all of them could need VT. (crazy, eh?) Aspies can have a very different sense of humor, see things VERY black & white, etc. If you read about it and it doesn't apply, all the better. But it's just one more thing to consider. Sometimes we notice details and quirks about our kids but we don't see how all the dots connect.

 

And no, I wouldn't fiddle with your general. Figure out what you want to evaluate first (basically whatever seems most pressing), and start with the practitioner for that. I think some people go to their general first if they need a referral letter for insurance purposes. Insurance covers some therapies and evaluations and not others, so you can ask the specialist (OT, dev. opt, whomever) whether insurance covers their services and proceed from there.

[Guest aquiverfull]

Kelli, I would keep working on the diagnosis angle before you chose more curriculum. Also, not to freak you out, but with your comment about not liking things silly, I would also do a fuzz of reading about aspies and auditory processing disorder. These things overlap a lot, and you could think you're dealing with dyslexia when really it's auditory processing disorder or autism. And all of them could need VT. (crazy, eh?) Aspies can have a very different sense of humor, see things VERY black & white, etc. If you read about it and it doesn't apply, all the better. But it's just one more thing to consider. Sometimes we notice details and quirks about our kids but we don't see how all the dots connect.

 

And no, I wouldn't fiddle with your general. Figure out what you want to evaluate first (basically whatever seems most pressing), and start with the practitioner for that. I think some people go to their general first if they need a referral letter for insurance purposes. Insurance covers some therapies and evaluations and not others, so you can ask the specialist (OT, dev. opt, whomever) whether insurance covers their services and proceed from there.

 

Thank you so much Elizabeth. I will look into the other things you mentioned. And thanks for the advice about how to precede. :)

God Bless you!!