More Dog issues...

[BeckyFL]

I posted before in April about my border collie/lab nipping someone out of the blue. We were walking him on the leash as 3 ladies walking briskly passed by. With no warning he jumped up and nipped her on the hand, drawing a iittle bit of blood. We sent him to training for 2 weeks to remedy this AND his fear-aggression towards other dogs. He came back with a prong collar to help us deal with the "flipping out" when he sees certain other dogs. Things were much better for a while, but he is now back to responding when he sees another dog. We have him on the leash and correct him so he does settle down, but he WANTS to react.

We've also had one more incidence of nipping. We were selling a dresser on craigslist and a woman and her friend came over to see it. I had the dog we're talking about in his crate. The woman's friend heard him and asked to see him saying that she loves dogs. I hesitate when she asked if I could let him come out so she could pet him, but I (regretfully) let him out. He nipped her on the arm (no blood).

With us, this dog is very sweet. The kids have friends in and out and he's always fine with them. I have a feeling these are warning nips from some sort of fear issue. He is also afraid of thunder, fireworks, etc. We got him as a puppy from craigslist. He lived in a small town area (mobile home) and was left outside with his mother and siblings while the owners were at work.

The trainer is recommending an e-collar along with a follow-up in home training session. This would total another $300. The first training was $800. We don't have tons of money and I'm not sure if I think this would work.

 

Any thoughts?

[BeckyFL]

Sorry for all the typos.... I was typing too fast!

[vettechmomof2]

First question is I see you state he was sent to the trainer... have you attended any training classes with him at this time?

[Ellie]

:grouphug:

 

I know how tough this is.

 

Have you seen any of the Dog Whisperer shows? He rehabilitates dogs like yours all the time.

[BeckyFL]

Yes, we did go to training. We've had a lot of life issues, so dh and I have gone back and forth (usually depends on who is hurting more physically) taking him for his walks. I know our styles are different, but he has some major knee problems and I've somehow come up with hip bursitis. We both worked with the trainer, but dh does things his own way sometimes. The trainer said this is OK and he'll get used to each one of us, but....

 

I've watched a lot of the Dog Whisperer, but I'm not sure that I think this is an "alpha" issue as much as a fear issue. I guess I need to watch more and find the episodes that deal with this.

[dansamy]

Prong collars and e-collars should be last resort tools. This dog is not at the point of needing last resort tactics. May i suggest Victoria Stillwell. Re-training this dog will require time & effort from both of you.

[hornblower]

Aggression begets aggression.

 

The last thing this dog needs is an e-collar.

 

Confrontational methods do not work in overcoming fear.

 

What you need to do is

 

a) stop putting your dog in scary situations. Sounds like this dog is uncertain & fearful of strangers. Strangers will not be allowed to approach this dog ever again, except as part of a systematic training plan which is focused on counter conditioning.

 

b) I'd muzzle. Muzzles are great because 1) they keep the dog safe; 2) they keep people safe; 3) they stop the clueless 'oh but I love dogs & all dogs love me' from rushing you before you can stop them. You can train a dog to not only accept a muzzle but actually like it as it becomes part of a cue that walks or outings etc are happening. In Europe, muzzled dogs are a much more common site btw, as dogs are welcome in lots more places (stores, restaurants etc) if they're muzzled. So even totally friendly 100% solid dogs are out & about in a muzzle.....

 

Board & train programs are almost always a waste of time & money IMO.

 

You need to work with someone who really understands animal behavior, & didn't just learn it on tv. Search for members here:

 

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=79&Itemid=357

 

CPDT is another good place to look for a referral for a trainer:

http://www.ccpdt.org/

 

CAAB - certified animal behaviorists:

http://www.animalbehavior.org/ABSAppliedBehavior/caab-directory

 

 

 

 

 

Also read through

http://companionanimalsolutions.com/blogs/confrontational-behavior-modification-techniques-and-the-risk-to-owners/#more-189

 

& the AVSBA position statement on dominance in dog training

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf

 

 

Some appropriate books which outline the process of retraining a fear aggressive dog:

 

How to Right a Dog Gone Wrong by Pamela Dennison

http://www.amazon.com/How-Right-Gone-Wrong-Rehabilitating/dp/1577790758/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283109989&sr=1-1

 

& the companion diary of her own journey in rehabbing a dog who bit people

Bringing Light to Shadow

http://www.amazon.com/Bringing-Light-Shadow-Trainers-Diary/dp/1929242174/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1283109913&sr=8-1-fkmr0

 

 

Click to Calm - healing the aggressive dog

http://www.amazon.com/Click-Calm-Healing-Aggressive-Clicker/dp/1890948209/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283110029&sr=1-1

[annlaura]

:grouphug: Sorry you have to deal with this. I am not an expert, but here are my first thoughts: find another trainer at least to get a 2nd opinion if not to actually work with; 2 weeks is not long enough to expect much change; and try a halti or gentle leader head collar. Unless the dog is too far away from you on a leash that is too long, you will have absolute control with little effort. Also, if you believe the nipping is fear based, you may need to do some very gradual conditioning. It can be time consuming but worth the effort.

[BeckyFL]

This trainer has won all kinds of awards, won national agility competitions, written books, works with police dogs, service dogs, etc and that's why I was pretty much doing what she has suggested. I'm thinking that the muzzle might be a good idea.

He pulls so hard when he see another dog though, even from across the street, that the prong collar HAS made it more manageable for us to walk him.

I feel like one of those people who just shouldn't have dogs and yet I've had them all my life. I just seem so have gotten one with major issues right at a time that it's most difficult for me to deal with. This year my mom has passed away, I've had to really help my dad a lot, my oldest son got married in another state and...... the dog has bitten someone twice! UGH!

[hornblower]

Just because someone has agility titles etc does not mean they can help you with your dog. Anyone who has been shoving prongs on a dog & is now recommending an e-collar means this person is out of her depth & just grasping for more force. It's the only tool in her toolkit. That hammer didn't work? Get a bigger hammer! (And just because someone is on tv does not mean they understand the science of dog behaviour either..... ;))

 

The links I've posted are to the science, research based organizations who study animal behavior. You need a comprehensive training plan which includes identifying the dog's triggers, & working on systematic counter conditioning and desensitization. There are no magic wands for this stuff.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would recommend a Halty or Gentle Leader. It turns the dogs head (kind of like a bridle for a dog) and has helped sooo much for pulling. I agree too that I would not let any one pet him. If his bite were any worse or someone chose to press charges you would be setting your dog up for a death sentence and yourself for a hefty fine (since you obviously know about this problem behavior).

[ktgrok]

you can't cure fear agression by scaring the dog more. Get rid of the prong collar, get rid of the idiotic trainer, and find someone that is an APDT trainer, or even better, a Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist. They will be much less than 800 dollars, and will actually know what they are talking about. Your regular veterinarian should be able to refer you to one.

[BeckyFL]

We had the gentle leader before the prong. It worked really well for a while and then kind of lost its effectiveness. Not sure if we needed a new one or what. It was adjusted as per the video.

 

We really can't afford more $$ for ANY kind of training right now. Just paid for college books, clothes, etc. I'm thinking maybe we should work with the muzzle for now.

 

Another question I'm hoping someone can answer. He has a dog across the street that he plays very well with. They've played together since they were little and she is a very submissive dog. When he goes over there, they play together in a fenced yard. They run around and get alot of exercise, but he does exhibit "fence behaviors". When he sees another dog passing he guards the fence by barking and carrying on (does this at our front window as well). The trainer had said to stop taking him over there because it was reinforcing this sort of behavior like a little game for him that he wins when they pass by. He hasn't been going over there but he's also not getting as much exercise. Now I'm wondering if that advice made sense.

[Ellie]

I've watched a lot of the Dog Whisperer, but I'm not sure that I think this is an "alpha" issue as much as a fear issue. I guess I need to watch more and find the episodes that deal with this.

Cesar rehabilitates dogs like yours all.the.time. I think watching all the episodes, whether they deal specifically with your dog's issues or not, would help. I learn something every time I watch. There will *always* be something that you will find useful.

[hornblower]

Another question I'm hoping someone can answer. He has a dog across the street that he plays very well with. They've played together since they were little and she is a very submissive dog. When he goes over there, they play together in a fenced yard. They run around and get alot of exercise, but he does exhibit "fence behaviors". When he sees another dog passing he guards the fence by barking and carrying on (does this at our front window as well). The trainer had said to stop taking him over there because it was reinforcing this sort of behavior like a little game for him that he wins when they pass by. He hasn't been going over there but he's also not getting as much exercise. Now I'm wondering if that advice made sense.

 

I think he should continue playing with any dog that he plays well with. BUT, I would supervise closely & I would not let him practice barking at the fence. If you see a dog approaching, call the playing dogs to you, reward with a treat & keep them near you until the dogs on the other side of the fence have passed. Reward calm behavior with treats. If your dog starts reacting to the dog at the fence, move further back, away from the fence - cheerfully & purposefully. "thank you - that's enough. With me!"

 

If you don't have a good recall on the dog, practice that lots & practice interrupting their play when there aren't any dogs going by so that being called by you doesn't start to predict dogs at the fence.

[BeckyFL]

Thanks! I really appreciate the help!

[Irishmommy]

Our dog is severely animal aggressive. We found out the hard way when we got another puppy. We spent around $1000 in training (in our home, with us), the dog is still animal aggressive and neurotic. Luckily for us, she has never been aggressive to any human. We decided to keep her after we had our older son, with the condition that if she EVER acted aggressive to him in the least, we would get rid of her immediately. I think she knows where she is on the chain, because she loves all the children very much. She is not a lovey-dovey type dog, and her animal aggression has certainly decreased our joy of having a dog (because we can't take her for walks, etc.), but she's very tolerant of the kids' pokes and prods, she's old and now set in her ways. If I had not already been attached to her when I found out she was animal aggressive, I probably would have considered giving her up (our trainer said she would take her if we really couldn't keep her). If she had actually nipped someone and drawn blood, I think that would have been more hesitant about keeping her. Sorry you are having to go through this. Pet issues are really tough.:grouphug:

[ktgrok]

Cesar rehabilitates dogs like yours all.the.time. I think watching all the episodes, whether they deal specifically with your dog's issues or not, would help. I learn something every time I watch. There will *always* be something that you will find useful.

 

I have to repsectfully disagree. Cesar doesn't rehabilitate fearful dogs. He scares the crap out of them until they shut down completely, thus appearing "fixed". He over and over calls fearful dogs "dominant" and uses flooding as his technique of choice. His methods often lead to dogs attempting to bite him, and he only manages to avoid major injury because he has excellent timing. The average pet owner could get very hurt attempting his techniques. It would be much better to focus on alleviating the fear rather than punishing the behavior. A dog that is still fearful, but has been trained not to show the fear can become a ticking time bomb.