Phonics is killing me

[Haiku]

My son and I started phonics with The Reading Lesson, which was a disaster for him. We switched over the Phonics Pathways, which has worked fine except that we are never, ever going to get through it. We have been working in it for almost a year and we are only on page 102. I am really growing to hate it, and so is he. He reads ok, not great. The problem with Phonics Pathways is that the kids are supposed to remember a bunch of rules for things, like when to use ck and when to use k, or when a syllable is open and when it is closed, and my son just can't remember those things. I think that a lot of the reason they harp on the rules so much is because they also bill the book as a spelling book, but honestly, working on these pages until my son remembers the rules is taking us frickin' forever. We both groan when we pull out the PP book.

 

I am not looking to switch to another phonics program. I am just wondering whether it would be better for my son if we just focused on reading aloud and not on memorizing phonics rules. At the rate we are going, my son will be well into 3rd grade before we finish PP, and I think we will both implode before then.

 

So far, a typical lesson for us has been a short review of the previous lesson, the new lesson, and then working on the whiteboard to use what we have learned in writing the words. It only takes us about 10-15 minutes, but by then my son is usually either near tears or in a horrible mood. I'm thinking we should just start reading through the lessons and not worry about doing any writing.

 

Tara

[Mama2two]

I"m with you, I'm going thru the same thing with my 6 year old son and OPG. We were doing good until we hit the long vowell sounds.

 

I was actually thinking of switching to phonics pathways just for a change of pace! ;)

 

Look forward to hearing any thoughts from anyone!!

[Snowfall]

I would quit the spelling portion and use it strictly for reading. I don't think being on page 102 after a year is too slow. We've been doing it for almost a year and we're only on page 70-something. Now, some of that time was lost completely because we stopped for several weeks to let my DD mature a little (she was getting too frustrated). I would think it would probably take 2 years or a little longer for an average beginning reader to work through the whole book.

 

I don't think PP is billed as a spelling program. I've never heard that said and didn't read it in the description when I bought it. It just has 1 page in the back about how to use it as one, doesn't it? I was surprised to even see it there, after having used it for months already. lol Regardless, my DD couldn't use it as such. We haven't tried, but I know it wouldn't work for her. We're using something else for spelling.

 

So I agree with you that just dropping the writing would be the best approach. Heck, we don't even review, since there's a general review every so often anyway. We just read that day's lesson and then she reads something like a Bob Book or Nora Gaydos book to her baby sister every day.

[abrightmom]

:001_smile: Tara,

 

I'm the FARTHEST thing from an expert or an experienced Mom-Teacher. I also have my share of "Language Arts" anxiety . . . but I have PP and OPGTR (kinda prefer OPG for ease of use as it's scripted and that works for me; PP has value too and I am using it for a son with a few bumps that need smoothing out). My initial thought when reading your post was why in the world does the child need to actually memorize the rule before moving on? I think that if he internalizes the rule (I'm not sure if that is how to say it) and "gets" how to read those types of words (i.e. silent e making the vowel say its name or whatever "rule" or type of word you are working on) then you move on whether or not he can spit out the actual rule to you.

 

Hmmmmmm. I really think the goal is reading and NOT memorizing of any reading rules. Evidence of his "getting it" comes with actually reading. For me, the rules have value in helping ME to teach the child how to read.

 

That is my very poorly explained and completely inexperienced mish mash of thoughts!!! Poor kid and poor you. No one needs to see the reading primer and go UGH. That is not good for long term learning . . . :D

 

I'm going to pull out my PP this morning and take a peek at her expectations with those rules.

 

:glare: I'm a little stumped though and will check back to see what others have to say.

[Rosy]

I would quit the spelling portion and use it strictly for reading. I don't think being on page 102 after a year is too slow. We've been doing it for almost a year and we're only on page 70-something. Now, some of that time was lost completely because we stopped for several weeks to let my DD mature a little (she was getting too frustrated). I would think it would probably take 2 years or a little longer for an average beginning reader to work through the whole book.

 

I don't think PP is billed as a spelling program. I've never heard that said and didn't read it in the description when I bought it. It just has 1 page in the back about how to use it as one, doesn't it? I was surprised to even see it there, after having used it for months already. lol Regardless, my DD couldn't use it as such. We haven't tried, but I know it wouldn't work for her. We're using something else for spelling.

 

So I agree with you that just dropping the writing would be the best approach. Heck, we don't even review, since there's a general review every so often anyway. We just read that day's lesson and then she reads something like a Bob Book or Nora Gaydos book to her baby sister every day.

 

That's what we do too. We don't memorize reading rules, I just use them to explain how the letters work. Also, sometimes we'll take turns reading (I read a line, then she reads a line). We finally ditched PP on p. 177, she's reading fluently enough that even though I see the value in doing the more advanced phonics, it isn't worth it for the struggle.

[Haiku]

I guess I misused the word "memorize," because what I actually meant was "be able to use." For example,we spent (I'm not even going to tell you how long, because it's ridiculous) on being able to write words with

-er, -ed, and -ing suffixes on them. I don't think my son ever really got to the point where I could tell him the word and have him be able to write it with the appropriate suffix without me coaching him through it every time. I finally just gave up.

 

The reason I say that PP bills itself as a spelling program is because, right on the front cover, it says, "Clear steps to easy reading and perfect spelling." My understanding has been that the kids need to "memorize" (know how to apply) the rules when writing the words, not just when reading them. At the beginning of the book, and in the first however many lessons, there are instructions to make sure that the child can both read and write the words that have been studied. I don't remember when the book stopped giving us reminders to be able to read and write the words before moving on, but I have continued to work on the writing part with him. Honestly, I think it's just getting beyond him.

 

But he will also do things like sound out the word "quizzes," slowly, by syllable, and then go back and read it as "quickes." He's never been a kid who sees patterns in things. We can do a whole page of words where the first word is a long-a word and the second word is a long-e word, and at the end of the page he still won't have recognized that pattern.

 

I don't believe in whole language, but I also don't think that the incremental phonics approach is going to do it for him, because it just seems too overwhelming with each new rule.

 

*sigh*

 

Tara

[Crimson Wife]

He's 7 and a rising 2nd grader? I would focus on the reading and shelve the writing/spelling for later. Once he's a fluent reader, you can then go back and work on spelling rules. :)

 

I have to say that your title describes how I'm feeling about phonics at the moment as well. My DS is in the sounding out BOB books v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y stage and it's very hard to keep a smile on my face :tongue_smilie:

[mama27]

When my current 10 yo dd was about 8 I hit a brick wall with her reading. She was still using some phonics program ( can't recall which one) but her reading was not improving. I finally decided to drop all phonics and have her read real books. We started with SL core 3 books. At first she was asking me what ever other word was. I did not tell her to sound it out or anything else, I just told her the word. Within 6 months she went from stmbling through very simple phonics books to reading chapter books such as "Pocahontas and the Strangers."

For her the rules were a major stumbling block.

[K&Rs Mom]

He's 7 and a rising 2nd grader? I would focus on the reading and shelve the writing/spelling for later. Once he's a fluent reader, you can then go back and work on spelling rules.

 

:iagree: I've used Phonics Pathways with both of mine without any writing, and we mostly have enjoyed it. When they get pretty fluent, I start a different spelling program, but don't bother with it before that. My goal with PP is for them to be able to recognize the sounds when they see them, and put them together to be able to make the harder words make sense. I think PP is supposed to be a 2 year program, so being on p102 after a year doesn't sound so bad. Maybe take a break to read some "real" books, and then get back into it with a fresh start?

[abrightmom]

Tara,

 

Why don't you separate reading and spelling instruction?? Forget spelling for now. Although SWB and JW recommended PP at one time I don't think they advocate teaching reading and spelling simultaneously. I think their recommendations for PP were for teaching phonics. Somewhere, in one of the resources (I think it is OPGTR) they recommend separating out those skills and taking them one at a time. Perhaps your son needs to focus on one skill at a time?? Just reading . . . . then, when he's settling in you can tackle spelling. If he doesn't do well with patterns then I think All About Spelling would be awesome for him. It will only serve to strengthen his reading skills as well. It is gentle to begin with, self paced, easy on Mom and hands on for the child.

 

Another thought is to teach reading and spelling as separate "classes" but with different materials. Use your PP (or whatever primer) for reading instruction only. Then do spelling separately with AAS. All About Spelling is a fantastic "tool" as it is multi-sensory. It isn't dry IMHO. Many children enjoy moving the tiles and building words. It feels like "play". The phonogram cd is also fun as it teaches all of the letter sounds. I have read many reports of children's reading skills improving once they use AAS.

 

I LOVE the idea of getting lots of mileage out of one resource but if it results in too much stress or zaps the joy right out of the process then perhaps a change is needed.

 

Or a break and a little time . . .

 

:001_smile:

[lovemykids]

I would drop PP at this point and use ETC along with plenty of read alouds. ETC is a very painless way of learning phonics AND spelling. (and there is no need to complete every page)

[Haiku]

Unfortunately, ETC has not really helped my son at all. I'm pondering giving it up.

 

Tara

[lovemykids]

Unfortunately, ETC has not really helped my son at all. I'm pondering giving it up.

 

Tara

 

 

I'm sorry. In that case, I would just read with him. :) He's a boy; he has plenty of time to develop those skills later.

[Robin's Song]

:grouphug: My daughter and I had the same experience with PP. She likes OPGTR much better (so do I). It seemed that with PP you never really knew when a lesson was over. Something about it was a bit much for dd. OPGTR mentions the rules briefly and then you move on...Perhaps you could use PP the same way. Briefly explain the rule in your own words but don't expect him to master it. Just read. I personally have a hard time remembering certain rules--that's a lot of mental steps when you're just learning to read. So I guess I'm saying to focus more on the reading the words than on the rules. Also, my dd LOVED the way OPGTR had me read the words first and then she read them when first learning a new rule. It took some of the fear out of it for her. After a few lessons she didn't want me to read them first. I never did that with PP--I was a afraid that she would memorize them and I thought she needed to struggle over each word to really "get it". Sorry this is rambly, I'm a hurry!

[Lightly Salted]

Another thought is to teach reading and spelling as separate "classes" but with different materials. Use your PP (or whatever primer) for reading instruction only. Then do spelling separately with AAS. All About Spelling is a fantastic "tool" as it is multi-sensory. It isn't dry IMHO. Many children enjoy moving the tiles and building words. It feels like "play". The phonogram cd is also fun as it teaches all of the letter sounds. I have read many reports of children's reading skills improving once they use AAS.

 

 

Agreeing. ETC didn't help my DD at ALL, but just a few lessons into AAS, I'm beginning to see the gaps in her phonics knowledge finally being filled!

[Aoife]

PP was the first book I bought and I found it WAY too confusing for me so I canned it quick :tongue_smilie: I bought OPGTR and while I loved it my DS found it too boring so I sold it and got 100EZ lessons which he loves. I am however thinking of getting another copy of OPGTR so that when we finish up 100EZ we can go back into OPGTR to finish out until reading fluently. That said I also supplement my phonics with SSRW, McGuffey readers, bob books, HOP readers, SL K readers and other various beginning reading books. DS LOVES the songs, games and activities from SSRW and he really enjoys having a variety of books versus reading the same ones over and over especially if we hit a wall and need to stick on a spot for a while.

 

We move at a very slow pace because I feel more comfortable with him really grasping the concept before moving on from various angles. I won't start spelling until later on and will be using spelling power for that. My final step for phonics and reading though will to be going though the HOP master reader program as I think it is fantastic for really solidifying the skills needed.

 

HTH at all. Also note I am a NOOB HSing mom so take that with a grain of salt too :lol: I am putting my DSD 9yo through master reader right now as her skills are lacking pretty badly as she was never taught phonics period in PS :(

[thepoteetteam]

Whatever you do with your child at that young age, make sure you both are having fun! This is the first impression he/she will have of the next long years of schooling!

[robsiew]

I do not do writing with PP. I don't have them memorize the rules either. I explain them, but I just remind them of the rule if they forget it when reading. I don't make a big deal out of it. We use AAS for spelling and they will hit all those rules again in spelling. It takes a long time to internalize those rules. Hearing them first in phonics (while learning to read), then hearing them again when learning to spell will help to get the rules in their heads. Even then, I will continue to remind my kids the rules.... it's a long process so you don't want to crash and burn in the beginning.

 

I would back off of memorizing the rules. Just read through the lists and call it a day. Remind your child when reading if a rule is forgotten. We spend no more than about 10 min. per day on phonics. In addition to that each of the younger boys (who are the 2 currently working on phonics) read a book to me. That constitutes our reading instruction right now. Keep it simple... phonics isn't really fun, but necessary. My key is to make it short and simple.

[tofuscramble]

I'm going to admit something that I probably shouldn't admit but I despise phonics programs. My eldest learned to read in ps, my middle started with 100 EZ lessons and we got about 1/2 way before we ditched it and did it alone and my 4yo learned/is learning to read without one. I just don't think there is a better substitute than sitting down with a child and just reading. Showing them the blends and pointing out the rules. My middle son is a very good reader and my 4 year old is reading through early readers.

 

I'm not saying my way is the best way but my point is that traditional programs don't always work so well for everyone. So it might be worth exploring a different route for a little bit.

[Wee Pip]

Depending on what stage of reading he is on, I would -

 

1. if he is still needing learn words / sound out words, pick up this book from the library and read it. Borrow it (get it free), just so you can get the overall idea and some of the book lists in the back: Teach A Child to Read With Children's Books by Mark Thogmartin. **Notice I said "...With Children's Books" and NOT 100 Easy Lessons (that would further kill the joy, I'm afraid). This book really helped my non-reading dd to tie phonics with real reading by reading real children's books (and not all that phonetic nonsense, either).

 

2. if he can already read alright, then yeah...just focus on reading. Get books, have him read aloud, take turns reading together, enjoy the process:)

[Homeschooling6]

My take on this is use if for Phonics this year and come back to it next year for spelling and to reinforce phonics :001_smile:

[nmoira]

I'm using PP with DD the Younger for reading and spelling. We're still on one syllable words, but I've completely separated the two: Reading through copywork (combined by her choice) and spelling are each done at their own pace. She wants to be able to write her own graphic novels, so spelling and writing are important to her. If this wasn't the case, I wouldn't think twice about dropping spelling for awhile.

[5LittleMonkeys]

You've gotten great responses so far but I just wanted to add something I didn't see anyone mention. We don't do the spelling or writing in PP either but I like to mix things up a lot instead of just reading another page everyday. (Uugh!) I will take a column of words from the page (4 or 5) and write them on a dry erase board. I then will ask her to circle the word _____, then she circles it and repeats the word. Sometimes she likes to write all the words and ask me to circle the word ________ and I'll circle the wrong one occasionally and she will giggle and correct me.:D I will also ask her to make up a funny sentence with some of the combo phrases. She gets a kick out of doing that too. You might also try using colored highlighters and have your ds highlight the patterns in the lists. This is great help for a visual child. It takes more time to do it this way but I don't care as long as she enjoys it. I'd rather take 30 minutes of her having fun with phonics than 10 minutes of just getting done before she has a meltdown.

 

I agree with the other posts regarding just reading a lot. I have dd read a book to me everyday. We have a ton of those Dr. Suess Beginning Readers (book club I kept forgetting to cancel:tongue_smilie:). A lot of them are easier than she needs but she LOVES being able to read them fluently and the more she reads the same book over and over the more the patterns of those words are being cemented into her brain. Another benefit of her reading the easy books over and over is that she is so comfortable with the reading that she is practicing enunciation and reading with a lot of emotion.

 

Hope you find something that will jive for both of you!

Edited July 29, 2010 by 5LittleMonkeys

[Ellie]

 

Spalding. It's my answer for everything, lol. It will be your whole English course: reading, spelling, penmanship, capitalization and punctuation, and simple writing.

[Haiku]

Thanks everyone for all your responses!

 

I remember reading in TWTM that a child should be mostly through a phonics course before he or she begins first grade work, and my thoughts on that are that my son would probably be 10 before he started first grade if we did that! :D

 

Tara

[jewel7123]

I'm using PP with my K'er, but we're just reading through it, not doing any spelling or writing. We also don't use it every day.....I use a variety of things for reading to keep it fresh and so we don't get bored with any one thing every.....single.....day. Along with PP we use Abeka's Handbook for Reading (a freebie passed on to me), Bob Books, Primary Phonics readers, HOP K, as well as a variety of readers we check out from the library.

[Haiku]

Right after I posted this thread, I gave up on Phonics Pathways and just began reading aloud with my son for 10 minutes a day. My intention was to slowly increase the time so that he was eventually reading aloud 20 minutes a day, but I haven't actually done that. I have kept it at 10 minutes because my son's reading has improved so much that the selections he reads to me keep increasing in difficulty, so I don't want to overwhelm him. I would rather that he a read a more challenging passage for a shorter amount of time than an easy passage for longer.

 

Just to brag a bit, this is part of what my son read me today, from Famous Myths of the Golden Age, published in 1947.

 

Long, long ago, in the days when the world was new, the best friend of man on Earth was Prometheus. He was a Titan, one of the race of giants who were living when man was made. According to the Greeks of that day, it was he who, at the command of Jupiter, made man.

 

To Prometheus' brother Epimetheus, Jupiter entrusted the task of making the animals, which he did well and carefully. Prometheus too set painstakingly about his work, using the same materials as Epimetheus, but using them differently. He made man so that he walked upright like the gods, and looked at the stars rather than at the ground. And he gave man a brain to think with. And yet, when he had finished, he was dissatisfied with his handiwork, for of all the creatures that both brothers had made, man was the most helpless.

 

I think that's pretty good. :D

 

Tara

[johnandtinagilbert]

Right after I posted this thread, I gave up on Phonics Pathways and just began reading aloud with my son for 10 minutes a day. My intention was to slowly increase the time so that he was eventually reading aloud 20 minutes a day, but I haven't actually done that. I have kept it at 10 minutes because my son's reading has improved so much that the selections he reads to me keep increasing in difficulty, so I don't want to overwhelm him. I would rather that he a read a more challenging passage for a shorter amount of time than an easy passage for longer.

 

Just to brag a bit, this is part of what my son read me today, from Famous Myths of the Golden Age, published in 1947.

 

Long, long ago, in the days when the world was new, the best friend of man on Earth was Prometheus. He was a Titan, one of the race of giants who were living when man was made. According to the Greeks of that day, it was he who, at the command of Jupiter, made man.

 

To Prometheus' brother Epimetheus, Jupiter entrusted the task of making the animals, which he did well and carefully. Prometheus too set painstakingly about his work, using the same materials as Epimetheus, but using them differently. He made man so that he walked upright like the gods, and looked at the stars rather than at the ground. And he gave man a brain to think with. And yet, when he had finished, he was dissatisfied with his handiwork, for of all the creatures that both brothers had made, man was the most helpless.

 

I think that's pretty good. :D

 

Tara

Sweet!

[twoxcell]

You do not need to have all the rules memorized to move on if you are using it as strictly a phonics program. He just needs to be able to read the phonagrams. I went through the entire book with my ds in one year. By the end of it he was reading at about a 2nd-3rd grade level. We are now working on spelling through AAS.

[Ariston]

I just wanted to thank you for this thread and everyone who answered. My son is on p 88 of PP. I don't do the spelling or writing portions at all, and had recently been wondering whether or not that was OK. We started off doing them but it just seemed like way too much for him, and not fruitful. I was thinking I would start AAS next year after he's done with PP. But of course I keep having nagging doubts about whether or not he should be doing spelling now. I was so glad to see so many others suggest doing spelling after phonics. My mind is at ease now :)

 

Oh, and one thing that helps us is a timer. He is so much more motivated and focused when he is trying to beat the timer. (He has to do one page each day in 15 minutes.)

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

nevermind :)

Edited January 19, 2011 by RecumbentHeart

[siloam]

But he will also do things like sound out the word "quizzes," slowly, by syllable, and then go back and read it as "quickes." He's never been a kid who sees patterns in things. We can do a whole page of words where the first word is a long-a word and the second word is a long-e word, and at the end of the page he still won't have recognized that pattern.

 

Tara

 

HUGE RED FLAG.

 

He can't hear the sounds, he can't spell them. It isn't an intelligence problem. He probably has an auditory processing problem.

 

My recommendation would be to just focus on the reading for now, but do come back to the rules AFTER you have given him the tools to succeed.

 

LiPS would be my recommendations. It works on developing the ability to hear the difference between sounds based on how they sound, feel and look.

 

For example my 3rd dd couldn't hear the difference between short i and short e, nor could she hear both the sounds in blends. If you have her a word like bend she would spell it bid, then read bid and melt into a pile of tears because she knew she spelled it wrong, but didn't know how to fix it.

 

LiPS got her on the right road. She still struggles, spelling will never be her strong point, but she is progressing now and is able to hear the sounds as well as apply the rules. You would probably only need the manual, but it would be ideal to also have a set of the cards. The cards are way too expensive so I took the reproducible and made my own. I just don't know if the reproducible sheet was part of the kit or part of the manual because my manual is a 1st edition.

 

But if you don't go back and fix the base problem of being able to hear the sounds, no spelling program will work, no matter how good it is.

 

Heather

[siloam]

Woo Hoo! :D

 

Heather

[Homeschooling6]

Ooops! Didn't realize this thread was a few months old and I already commented:blush:

Edited January 19, 2011 by Homeschooling6

[StartingOver]

I have not read all 4 pages. But I am working on teaching my 4th child to read. We used OPGTR this time. The way I do it is to get through the CVC words, then read, read, read books with those short words until my child is fluent. Then we move on to the CVCC and read, read, read. For my children, each step must be practiced. If we run into words that haven't been studied yet, I just give them the word. Then when they are fluent, we go on to the next step. It breaks things up, and makes it much more interesting. We never so phonics in a book, we use a white board, and the lessons are kept to under 5 minutes. Most of the time my child will then read for about 5 minutes in the beginning, working up as the words get harder.

 

I have used a ton of phonics programs over the years, I don't think it matters which one. Just that you keep it fun and exciting. Choose books of interests, as far as that can be done with beginning readers. ;-)

 

Just what has worked for us.