I've really messed my DD up in math. HELP!

[mumkins]

IDK what to do. My DD has struggled in math so much. We started with Horizon's 1 and it was way too hard, we moved on to MUS alpha and I got concerned it didn't cover enough. So then we tried saxon and she hated the fact sheets so much we never ended up doing them as they took her forever and loads of tears. Though we did finish grade 2. Then we tried BJU , which was too hard for her. So we tried Singapore which didn't work at all. Then we tried TT 4 as 3 wasn't available yet and it was expecting her to know grade 3 stuff after about 15 lessons and she couldn't do it. I downloaded Math Mammoth and immediately seen it wasn't for us. So then we tried MUS and saxon again. Neither feel like a good long term fit. I thought about ACE as it's colourful and self taught as she's a visual learner. But I keep hearing how poor ACE is and I feel like I'm going to mess her up even more in math, if that's possible.

 

So here we are, heading into 4th and she doesn't even have her basic facts up to 9+9 solid and her subtracting is pretty bad, Which is no wonder really. What do I do, put her in 2nd grade? How will she ever catch up? Her little brother is half way through 2nd grade in McRuffys and he's only a 1st grader. IDK if I should try McRuffy's with her or if it'll go high enough as 3rd is as high as it's out. She'd be so upset to know she's where he is. I tested them both on ACE and he tested further into 2nd grade than she is.

 

Ok, so to recap, she's going into 4th, doesn't have her basic addition and subtraction facts down. She gets concepts, like the concept of adding and dividing, but can't remember the facts. She can do all the other 'stuff' in programs, like graphs, measurements. But stuff just doesn't seem to stick. Plus she gets freaked out if she sees too much work to do. She struggled in other subjects, but has come around in all but math and spelling. She struggled in K with everything, I was in the class. She was definantly in the 5 most struggling kids.

 

I've really, really messed this girl up. How do I fix is and which math do I use for her?

[Tam101]

Since she understands concepts but doesn't have the facts memorized, I would just work with her on that for the next several weeks/months, however long it takes. You don't need a curriculum to do that. Print some drill sheets, she could make her own flash cards, play computer games like Timez Attack. Since you have MM, she has a links at the beginning of each chapter for free online math games. Take advantage of that. Once she has her facts down fairly well, MM recommends 80% to move on, then you could most likely put her into 4th grade math and she won't be any the wiser of your concerns.

 

Math Mammoth has worked well for us and I've stuck with it, so hopefully someone else with a vaster knowledge of whats out there can recommend something for you. But whatever you choose stick to it!! Don't keep changing just because she doesn't like math. She may never enjoy it. ;)

[NanceXToo]

TT3 is out now, right? Maybe you could get it for her and just do her in that, and let her move along with it at her own pace, and then start her on the TT4 program that you already have whenever she finishes 3? If she doesn't hate TT, then you could probably have her get through it a little faster/work over the summer too so that eventually by say grade 5, she'll be all caught up.

 

Just a thought.

 

Also I know TT is expensive but it does seem to hold most of its value really well, so you could easily sell TT3 when you are done with it, and you'll already have TT4 for when she's ready for it.

[Mandy in TN]

First- Meet her where she is.

 

What I hear you saying is that she understands the concepts, but has trouble with the computation. While you continue to work on computation with something like a Kumon workbook, separate this drill from her math lesson. During her math lesson, let her use a multiplication chart and addition fact list.

 

Second- Pick something and do it.

 

What I hear you saying is that although she is going into fourth grade and has only finished one year of math- 2nd grade Saxon. She may never love math, so don't try to find something that she loves. Instead pick something that you feel comfortable/ confident teaching.

 

Third- No don't use McRuffy's with her.

 

You expressed some concern that placing her in McRuffy's would pressure her to compare her skill set to her little brother. If your gut tells you that this will upset her, go with your gut. Don't put her in McRuffy math.

 

So, pick a program that you can work with, choose a level appropriate to where she can understand the concepts, and work on facts outside the program with Kumon workbooks (or something like them).

 

HTH-

Mandy

[KJsMom]

Did you actually try Math Mammoth with her? We were in a similar situation this year. Too much program hopping trying to find what *works* caused lots of tears and frustration, not to mention huge gaps in her learning. I downloaded MM level 2 (mid-way through 3rd grade) and when I looked at it, I wasn't sure it would work for us. It just doesn't look right. :tongue_smilie: But when I tried it with my daughter things really turned around. Maria explains things in a way that my dd could understand. She understands the concepts and likes math now.

As for grade level, if she doesn't get the basics she will always be behind, kwim? When you print out MM you don't have to print the cover sheets so there is no reason for your daughter to know she is doing level 2 math. My understanding is that MM is a little advanced anyway. If she is like my daughter she should be able to pick things up pretty quickly and move through the program. I think we will be back up to *grade level* by the end of next year. I hope you figure it out soon, I understand the guilt and frustration. :grouphug:

[mom2att]

How do I fix is and which math do I use for her?

 

Sounds like a lot of confusion for a few math facts. You've mentioned both Saxon and Math-U-See, which while they may not be a good "long term fit," have probably provided the most consistency so far. Both are good, solid programs, Saxon being especially useful to the learner who needs small bites of information reviewed over and over (this is my son to a T). We've also supplemented with MUS when he needed a different explanation and/or more hands-on than Saxon provided. As far as getting the math facts down, you just keep going over and over them. Saxon's math facts pages are a lot--I would have my son do them orally, or only do 3 rows, or every other one, or . . . but he did them everyday (and never timed--that stressed him out). He's going into 4th grade also and we are still working on them.

 

So my advice is to pick something, stick with it, and keep plugging away.

[robsiew]

First of all :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

Then, take a deep breath! It's going to be okay, and your dd will be okay! Some things you may want to think about...

 

1. What are some methods of teaching/learning that have been successful for your dd? What are things she enjoys? What are her strengths? Do you prefer a mastery program (focus on few concepts at a time building on each concept) or a spiral curriculum (interlacing many different concepts, coming back to them in greater depth year after year)?

 

2. Now, when evaluating all the math curriculum you have used, which one seems to fit her the best? Which one do you feel most comfortable teaching? This is what I would go with and stick with it.

 

3. If you choose something like MUS the grade level is irrelevant, so you wouldn't have to worry about that. I'm not sure what you didn't like about MM, but she also has topical books that would help you to reinforce some of the specific areas of trouble. (If it was too many problems per page there are solutions to that.) I would assess where she's at with her facts/skills and choose the appropriate level of whatever curriculum you choose, no matter the grade. If it is a graded curriculum you can always tear apart the book or take off the cover so that she doesn't know the grade level.

 

4. I would concentrate on her facts, but more important than just memorizing the facts is to make sure she's really understanding what is going on. I wouldn't worry too much if she understands the concepts of addition and subtraction well, but just doesn't have the facts totally mastered. That will come with practice. You can also have her play online games to help reinforce those facts. If she does not understand concepts such as place value and basic addition and subtraction concepts I'd start there.

 

5. If she's ready for multiplication/division start slow. I really like MM for this... I think she explains the concepts extremely well and takes small steps to get there.

 

6. I would work methodically and slowly to make sure she understands concepts well. Word problems are a great "test" of this. If she can manipulate numbers in a well chosen word problem she is understanding the concepts. Go back to objects if necessary to make it more concrete. Continue to practice the math facts, but I wouldn't burn her out on these.

 

7. If after slow, methodical work she is still struggling you may want to have her tested for a math LD. With all the switching you've done, I personally would hold off on this a bit though until you can figure out a little more what is going on.

 

8. I think you as her teacher need to be calm and relaxed when teaching math. Maybe take a break from paper/pencil and just make it fun for awhile to give her a rest. Play games on the computer and other card games/board games.... make up problems for her in daily life and see how she does. Maybe a more relaxed environment will help her de-stress and be able to focus more.

 

9. Finally, I would suggest to you that math may never be your dd's strong suit and that's okay! Sometimes we just have to do what we can to get by! Most important is for you to figure out where your daughter actually is in her math knowledge and just bring her along from there. Don't let grade level get to you too much. In the long run, the important thing is that your dd moves from one place of knowledge to the next.... that she grows each year in her knowledge... not that she's reaching some arbitrary grade level.

 

You'll get there! You are doing more for her than any school could do. You know your dd.... just take a deep breath.... you'll be just fine, and so will she! :grouphug::grouphug:

[Gooblink]

I'm sure you're in good company. :grouphug:

 

One of the blessings that could be a curse for us is that there are so many choices! I've felt the same way with my boys and various subjects...including math. It doesn't help that they both have different learning styles, either.

 

I think there comes a time when you have to simply make a choice and stick with it through to the end. It probably doesn't matter a whole lot which program you use, as long as you use it consistently.

 

I added some workbooks that I bought from a teacher supply store to my boys' math programs last year because they were lacking mastery in some areas (fractions/decimals for my 4th grader, geometry for my 6th) and that helped get them up to speed without us having to "stop" what we were already doing (Saxon). The same can be found for basic math facts.

 

Don't fret. She'll come along! :)

[Guest mrsjamiesouth]

I have done the exact same thing with my oldest!!

 

What I decided was that Saxon works the best with him, but I can cut out some of the problems. Don't do everything listed, just cut some things in half. It seems that your daughter did best with Saxon. Saxon does get better as you get to the older grades.

 

I would take the summer and get her to memorize all her addition, subtraction and multiplication facts at least. Maybe give her a prize to earn if she gets them memorized.

[Dmmetler]

How does she do at memorizing songs, poems and the like? There are a bunch of audio learning options for basic addition/subtraction/multiplication/division facts and if she has the concepts solid, this is a good time for them. Get some, put them on a CD or Mp3 player, and play them in the car, at home, and so on. If you have Discovery Education, there's multiple math facts versions available for download from them, so you could just focus on one fact, but have 3-4 songs for that one set.

[mumkins]

She seems to be a right brained visual learner, I think. I actually cried when I read through links people have posted here before about VSL kids cause that's her to a T.

 

I didn't stay with MM as I couldn't figure it out. Maybe that's my problem. Math is effortless to me...well, until calculus. I did really well until calculus, lol. It looked so confusing and explained things in ways I've never done and couldn't figure out.

 

She learns best by reading. That's one reason I was drawn to ACE. I think if she read how to do it herself, she'd excell better. I can read to her and it's in one ear, out the other. But when she reads, she's like an encycloppedia and sucks in all in and can put it back out too. Like animals. I'd never question what she says about animals cause she reads the animal encyclopdepia for fun and only check horse books out of the library.

[Robin's Song]

Rod and staff might be a good fit, especially for you since the teacher's manuals will hold your hand (sometimes you can be brilliant at something but unable to explain it in a way that others understand). Use the scripting. Use the visuals. Follow it exactly, even if it feels weird. It is mastery with frequent review. But if you switch again, commit to sticking with it for a year. Consistency with any program is better than inconsistency caused by searching for the perfect program. :grouphug:

 

I know you said she gets freaked out if she sees too much work, and r&s does have quite a bit. But honestly, she may need it if things aren't sticking for her. And it is certainly not as much as saxon. I would take a few months and follow Cadam's suggestions--flashcards, fact worksheets, lots of fun games. Then in August/September see where she places in r&s.

 

It's just math mom. You haven't messed her up for life! ((Big hugs to you since I can't find the smiley right now))

Edited June 29, 2010 by Robin's Song

[walkermamaof4]

Last summer I had my dd (then 9) use thedrill on the MUS website to get her facts down cold. it worked. She also did Timez Attack daily, but I think MUS helped more although she thought Timez was super fun. Then we did R&S4 all year which is great for learning mechanics, but not strong on concepts. So we just switched to MM and for the 1st time ever, she says she loves her math program. Woohoo.

HTH!

[Moniksca]

I use saxon with my VSL, we just finished up Saxon 3 and he's very happy to be moving to the 5/4 book that he pulls it out at night to look at it.

I stopped using the drill sheets after I discovered he was a VSL. He uses his MUS blocks and play money when he's doing his worksheet. He just needs a visual representation to help him figure out the problem.

I say find a program that you are comfortable with and teach it, it's ok if you need to slow down and take some extra time on a new concept, just keep at it. Also use a lot of games, make it fun.

We switched over from MUS, it was too repetitive and the look of the worksheets with a huge number of the same type questions was too daunting for my ds.

Good luck!

[KathyBC]

TT3 is out now, right? Maybe you could get it for her and just do her in that, and let her move along with it at her own pace, and then start her on the TT4 program that you already have whenever she finishes 3? If she doesn't hate TT, then you could probably have her get through it a little faster/work over the summer too so that eventually by say grade 5, she'll be all caught up.

 

Just a thought.

 

Also I know TT is expensive but it does seem to hold most of its value really well, so you could easily sell TT3 when you are done with it, and you'll already have TT4 for when she's ready for it.

 

:iagree:

[ChrisB]

Ok, so to recap, she's going into 4th, doesn't have her basic addition and subtraction facts down. She gets concepts, like the concept of adding and dividing, but can't remember the facts.

 

How about using RightStart Math Card Games to help solidify her math facts?

[Corraleno]

She seems to be a right brained visual learner, I think. I actually cried when I read through links people have posted here before about VSL kids cause that's her to a T.

 

I didn't stay with MM as I couldn't figure it out. Maybe that's my problem. Math is effortless to me...well, until calculus. I did really well until calculus, lol. It looked so confusing and explained things in ways I've never done and couldn't figure out.

Most Americans weren't taught math this way; you might want to pick up a copy of Liping Ma's Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics (you can get used copies for around $5 or your library might have it), it explains very clearly the differences between typical US math programs and Asian math programs. Math Mammoth teaches math the "Asian way," which leads to a deeper conceptual understanding than the plug-&-chug, just-memorize-the-algorithm way.

 

I would encourage you to give MM another try. It's self-teaching, so your DD can read it herself and do the problems. My DS is an extreme visual/spatial learner (like your DD, he also reads encyclopedias for fun) and MM worked wonders for him. Maria Miller explains and illustrates abstract math concepts in ways that allows V/S kids to really "see" what's going on, not just memorize the algorithm and do a bunch of identical looking practice problems. Visual/spatial learners tend to really struggle in just-memorize-the-algorithm math programs, because their brains just don't work that way.

 

My DS also struggled terribly with memorizing math facts — another issue that's very common with V/S learners. It has nothing to do with their ability to understand math concepts; it's an entirely different skill and uses a different part of the brain. You should *not* hold her back conceptually until the math facts are perfect; work on those separately and try to make it fun. My DS used Facts First online software (through Homeschool Buyers Coop) as well as Timez Attack. Two years ago, at the end of 4th grade, my DS was still doing 3rd grade math and didn't have any of his math facts memorized. He's just finishing 6th grade, is doing prealgebra, and knows most of his facts. Math Mammoth plus online drill games made all the difference.

 

Don't even worry about what "grade level" your DD is at, just start her where she is conceptually. If that's MM3A, or even 2B, that's fine. By the time she finishes 6B she'll be ready for algebra, so even if she doesn't finish 6B until 8th grade, she'll be doing algebra in 9th grade, which is perfectly normal. And, FWIW, V/S learners tend to do much better with higher math than they do with basic arithmetic, so she may really take off once she gets to algebra.

 

Jackie

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

I would suggest you do something to teach her math facts- no curriculum required (addition, subtraction, multiplication and division) over the summer and into next school year-- as long as it takes. You have many suggestions for that already. Then I suggest starting the key to math series with her. That does not have a grade attached to it. Those start with the basics then advace to upper elementary. After going through those (til just before pre-algebra) add in some Life of Fred.

 

Now I would find some workbooks (or printable pages on line) and once or twice a week give her a math facts worksheet (or get a game that would help keep her in practice-- such as math whiz. Its basically like electronic flash cards but it has batteries and sounds so kids like it LOL)

 

HTH :grouphug:

Edited June 30, 2010 by wy_kid_wrangler04

[Lovedtodeath]

Obviously you see that you need to choose a program and stick with it. You didn't really say what kind of learner she is or why things didn't work but for the moment I wouldn't jump into another program.

 

Just wait.

 

Get a good deck of flash cards and work on memorizing the facts. This is the method that works for us:

 

As I go through the cards (and I start with just a few number families in the beginning, like 2's and 5's) if the child doesn't get it right, or they have to figure it out (not memorized) then they say the fact and answer three times while looking at the card "5x5 is 25, 5x5 is 25, 5x5 is 25" and the card goes into a "review" stack. This engages their eyes, ears and mouth into learning the fact. After going through the stack of flash cards in this manner, we hit the review stack for a second round but even if they don't get them that time we are done.

 

The whole thing takes under 5 min. and with kids who are in the middle of learning those facts we do this twice a day. At some point we drop to once a day and after they are well memorized I drop to once every week or two, but even my 8th grader still has to occasionally do the flashcards. Any memory work that isn't practiced will be forgotten and math facts are especially prone to this.

 

If she is super anti-flash card (most kids get over it when they see it doesn't take long) then try games and such but there is no sense in trying math programs until the facts are memorized. You will get a much more accurate testing of her level once this is taken care of.

 

Once those are memorized I would suggest that you take a long look at what didn't work and why it didn't work. Did you really understand the programs you were using (ie. your reason for originally leaving MUS doesn't make sense if you understand how the program is set up). Were they a bad fit for her style or your style? Did you have everything you needed? Where you using the right level?

 

I would not put her in the same program as little brother but I would find a program that you are comfortable with as the teacher. Something that you really understand and believe in as far as method and all. Once you start it, stick with it through the elementary sequence even if that means you have to go back a level or two. She is only in 4th grade. Most programs you will be able to move through some of it quickly and working through the Summers will have her up to grade level in no time.

 

Once you have chosen a program that you understand and believe in, then when problems come (because they always do) come here and ask other users what they do about that. Sometimes a small tweak is all you need to keep using a program.

In addition to flashcards I would get an abacus and teach her how to use it. It works just like fingers! I added it to MM and more lightbulbs are going off. There is a link that teaches you how to use it. I will find it if you want.

 

I would encourage you to give MM another try. It's self-teaching, so your DD can read it herself and do the problems. My DS is an extreme visual/spatial learner (like your DD, he also reads encyclopedias for fun) and MM worked wonders for him. Maria Miller explains and illustrates abstract math concepts in ways that allows V/S kids to really "see" what's going on, not just memorize the algorithm and do a bunch of identical looking practice problems.

 

Don't even worry about what "grade level" your DD is at, just start her where she is conceptually. If that's MM3A, or even 2B, that's fine. By the time she finishes 6B she'll be ready for algebra, so even if she doesn't finish 6B until 8th grade, she'll be doing algebra in 9th grade, which is perfectly normal. And, FWIW, V/S learners tend to do much better with higher math than they do with basic arithmetic, so she may really take off once she gets to algebra.

 

Jackie

:iagree:

 

I also think that TT3 is a good idea.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[Poke Salad Annie]

Most Americans weren't taught math this way; you might want to pick up a copy of Liping Ma's Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics (you can get used copies for around $5 or your library might have it), it explains very clearly the differences between typical US math programs and Asian math programs. Math Mammoth teaches math the "Asian way," which leads to a deeper conceptual understanding than the plug-&-chug, just-memorize-the-algorithm way.

 

Jackie

 

 

I am reading (and rereading) Liping Ma's book, and it has made a tremendous impression upon me. I agree, the conceptual understanding is so very important; all things go forth from that. I would spend the time getting the concepts down. It shouldn't fail you later.

[mumkins]

Ok, so she really wants a 'mazing hampster' from Webkinz. I told her today that as soon as she learns all her addition and subtraction facts, she can have one. I know some MUS games and card games and I'll look up some more.

 

I think I've got it narrowed down to MM, ACE or TT. I'm also going to lookt at the key to series.

 

Thank you all so much for your advice, I'll definantly be coming back to read it again.