So now can y'all prescribe history?

[Aubrey]

I hate to hijack further (sorry, Aubrey). But what is wrong with Sarah Noble?

 

I don't know, but it's one I have on my shelf, let the kids read just last week, & now (when I find it), I'm going to have to catch up w/ that one.

 

I tried asking my son, who is nonverbal when it comes to narrative forms of communication, lol--"Was there something bad in the book?"

 

"Yeah."

 

"What was it?"

 

"I don't know."

 

:confused: :lol:

[nmoira]

 

I hate to hijack further (sorry, Aubrey). But what is wrong with Sarah Noble?

It's built around stereotypes across the board -- and an amalgamation of them at that, since these are generic "Indians" -- from their manner of speech to the portrayal Sarah's civilising influence.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Thank you--I'm just reading thr the responses now over a lively game of Strawberry Shortcake. :lol:

 

I've actually read a lot of your posts about Human Odyssey over the last couple of days & read the excerpts someone typed up for you a few mos ago. I want to get excited w/ everyone, but...I wasn't impressed. It looked awfully revisionist, referring to the ancient Mesopotamians as good little capitalists. But I was afraid to say anything...since history turned out to be such a volatile topic. I decided maybe I just need to see it...

 

And honestly, as long as we're typing small, if TOG is out of the range of reasonable curric because of its inclusion of TCoO & Sarah Noble, then that takes down LLATL, SL, & many others as well. I'm not convinced that these still can't be good curric w/ an exception of a book or two, which is unfortunate. Because otherwise, we need a funeral thread. If this is the case, then almost every non-textbook box curric has been taken down in the last couple of days, incl CM & AO. We need to STOP & grieve & decide as a community if we can even go on after such loss. This would almost put as back to the beginning when there was no curric.

 

I don't know about you, but either way, I'm picking up my pen.

 

Exactly-If you are looking at a follow up curriculum I would find the one that best suits your needs and edit as necessary. If you want to keep the chronological order I would start with a basis such as Biblioplan or TOG or even take a look at Veritas Press. If you find books in the reading list objectionable I would hunt down substitutes. For example-I dislike having my kids read abridgments such as used in TOG. Even though they are recommended for my Middle Schooler she has often chosen to read the actual book instead. My upper elementary does read the abridgment but will eventually read the full novel. (He just can't stand to be left out so I've let go on the abridgment issue.)

 

Quite frankly I tried writing my own curriculum for the first couple years and it was a pain! I have found that I can never totally love a program straight out of the box so I find one that is close and tweak as needed.

TOG does (sort of) have a built in substitutes list and I often turn to other curriculum catalogs, great books lists or Biblioplan to get ideas of substitutes or extra readings where needed.

[TracyP]

I don't know, but it's one I have on my shelf, let the kids read just last week, & now (when I find it), I'm going to have to catch up w/ that one.

 

I tried asking my son, who is nonverbal when it comes to narrative forms of communication, lol--"Was there something bad in the book?"

 

"Yeah."

 

"What was it?"

 

"I don't know."

 

:confused: :lol:

 

I read it quick yesterday afternoon to find out but I am stumped.

 

There were a couple places that someone talked negatively about the Indians (they are gonna cut your head off) but every time that happened her father told her to not listen. He said those people are naive and need to keep their mouth's shut. He says we love and welcome all people.

 

I read it in about 20 minutes so I may have missed something. I thought it showed the hostility some whites felt toward the Indians (true) and that those feeling were not right (true).

[Capt_Uhura]

Aubrey - I was typing in a hurry and not very coherent I'm afraid. :lol: I didn't think you were offended by HO just that I generally find some snippet that makes me pause in a book but if it's only a snippet, I'll use the rest of the book. You found a snippet you didn't like about HO so the question is, would the rest of the book work for you. That's all lol. I grew up w/ very little history and not a lot of books in the house. I'm a scientist and stayed in the math and sciences for the most part. So I'm fascinated by the discussion and which books folks find objectionable and why. I'm afraid that things might fly beneath my radar and I not even notice. For instance, where I grew up, everyone was Catholic. It wasn't until this board that folks started talking about anti-Catholic bias in literature and history books. My first thought was "HUh, where I grew up, being Catholic was a good thing!" I'm not Catholic by the way. My friend gave me a 20sec run down on it.

 

I think the Native American objectionable list was due to how Native American's are portrayed as savages or unintelligent etc in books. Darn, I can't find the link but I will check my other computer. I think perhaps "The INdian in the Cupboard" was on the list. There is another popular children's book about a white boy who befriend's an Indian boy and tries to teach him to read which was also on the list.

[Aubrey]

Aubrey - I was typing in a hurry and not very coherent I'm afraid. :lol: I didn't think you were offended by HO just that I generally find some snippet that makes me pause in a book but if it's only a snippet, I'll use the rest of the book. You found a snippet you didn't like about HO so the question is, would the rest of the book work for you. That's all lol. I grew up w/ very little history and not a lot of books in the house. I'm a scientist and stayed in the math and sciences for the most part. So I'm fascinated by the discussion and which books folks find objectionable and why. I'm afraid that things might fly beneath my radar and I not even notice. For instance, where I grew up, everyone was Catholic. It wasn't until this board that folks started talking about anti-Catholic bias in literature and history books. My first thought was "HUh, where I grew up, being Catholic was a good thing!" I'm not Catholic by the way. My friend gave me a 20sec run down on it.

 

I think the Native American objectionable list was due to how Native American's are portrayed as savages or unintelligent etc in books. Darn, I can't find the link but I will check my other computer. I think perhaps "The INdian in the Cupboard" was on the list. There is another popular children's book about a white boy who befriend's an Indian boy and tries to teach him to read which was also on the list.

 

I find your posts to be very intelligent, so when I couldn't follow, I was afraid the problem was on my end. :001_smile:

 

I wouldn't NOT BUY HO based on the section I was referring to. The problem, though, is that there are no samples to look at, so I don't know if the whole book is filled w/ things like that. I sort-of give it more wt since it was typed in by a boardie. Maybe it was a random passage, but I assume at least a little thought was put into the choice.

 

I guess...as much as it costs, I can't see why it's so popular. And since other books seem to be popular by their placement in big name curric book lists, I hesitate to take anything at face value, kwim?

 

We do judge books by the samples we find online, fair or unfair as that might be, because we can't just go buying everything.

[TracyP]

It's built around stereotypes across the board -- and an amalgamation of them at that, since these are generic "Indians" -- from their manner of speech to the portrayal Sarah's civilising influence.

 

Hmmm, I see what you are saying. 'An Indian doesn't use two words when one will do' or something to that effect is a line from the book. I guess I wonder if we are not just a little too oversensitive to this stuff sometimes. Or maybe my POV is just different than some. My dh has some Native American ancestry, we live on "the res". We are probably not quite a minority but at least half and half white and Native. We have neighbors/coworkers that are Indian. I read that stuff and know the truth - that was a stereotype. Maybe it is different in some communities where kids might read that and not know better. Maybe I should be more sensitive - I don't know. Just "thinking" out loud here.:001_smile:

[kiana]

 

There is another popular children's book about a white boy who befriend's an Indian boy and tries to teach him to read which was also on the list.

 

Sign of the Beaver?

[Capt_Uhura]

TraceyP - ah yes, you hit the nail on the head for me. I'm not as sensitive about some things as others so I wonder what i might be missing due to my insensitivity. I asked my 9yr old DS if history was factual or true....can't recall my exact wording....he said no b/c history is written by people and they put their own spin in it or something like that. And that there is no good guy and bad guy. Each group thinks they are good and righteous and doing the right thing. Sometimes I wonder if we don't give kids enough credit.

 

I try to look at things both ways. Some of my best NOVA shows are where they highlight how two or more groups of scientists look at the same data and come away w/ the opposite conclusion or how two archaeologists look at the same site and come away w/ different explanations.

 

Aubrey - I so feel your pain about books! And they are pricey. Basically, I took the plunge b/c several of my groupies (folks on this board who seem to have same philosophy as me, similar kids, etc raved about it so I bought it unseen. :lol:) You mention seeing a passage someone typed up. There was also another thread where someone posted scanned pages, four pages I believe. Did you read those?

[Capt_Uhura]

Kiana - THANK YOu! That would have bugged me all day! Yes, Sign of the Beaver which is used in LLATL Orange Book.

[MommyRyan]

Could I suggest TRISMS History Makers? We are going to be using this next year for our dd and ds. It's a middle school curric, research based but well planned. A bit advanced, but we'll be stretching it over four years. It is a full curriculum (comes with language arts, arts appreciation, & science), but we are picking and choosing and sticking with just the history.

[Shelly in the Country]

Kiana - THANK YOu! That would have bugged me all day! Yes, Sign of the Beaver which is used in LLATL Orange Book.

 

Also used in SL Core 3

[Sophia]

I'm not convinced that these still can't be good curric w/ an exception of a book or two, which is unfortunate. Because otherwise, we need a funeral thread. [/size]

 

I don't know about you, but either way, I'm picking up my pen.

 

I'm glad to hear you're not convinced :).

 

ToG's model is Read. Think. Write.

 

The teacher's notes and discussion questions equip the teacher (you) to guide your child through this process.

 

I have not used the ToG unit(s) that cover TCoU, but having used other units and meeting and listening to Marcia Somerville at a Tapestry Tea

I can assure you promoting racism or other hateful ideas is not the goal nor end product of using their Read. Think. Write. model.

 

This thread has prompted me to pull out my Classic units (year 2) from years ago, and ...I'm falling in love again :001_wub:

 

Hope you find what you're looking for! :)

[Aubrey]

Aubrey - I so feel your pain about books! And they are pricey. Basically, I took the plunge b/c several of my groupies (folks on this board who seem to have same philosophy as me, similar kids, etc raved about it so I bought it unseen. :lol:) You mention seeing a passage someone typed up. There was also another thread where someone posted scanned pages, four pages I believe. Did you read those?

 

I was looking for the scanned pages when I found that thread. I assumed when I found it that by "scanned" you'd meant "typed in." I didn't see them--I wonder if they're still there?

[Capt_Uhura]

I know they are still there b/c I posted a link to them on the Highschool board about 4months ago. I'll see if I can find it.

 

Here it is. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158963

Edited June 10, 2010 by Capt_Uhura
added the link

[Aubrey]

I know they are still there b/c I posted a link to them on the Highschool board about 4months ago. I'll see if I can find it.

 

Here it is. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158963

 

Oh, thank you!! I can't tell you how much time I lost yesterday looking for it--here AND on the highschool boards, because you'd mentioned reposting it there. I figured if it was in 2 places, I wasn't going to admit not being able to find it. :lol:

[Capt_Uhura]

I'd like to say that what a wonderful board this is. No other place can I find such a diverse, intelligent, passionate group of people with which to have such discussions. I don't know where my homeschooling or my education would be, without this board. Thank you all!!!!

 

Capt_Uhura

[Heidi @ Mt Hope]

The Drama of American history series is not "just books." Trust me on this, and then verify it for yourself, this series will provoke questions about which side was right or wrong in a dispute (or as likely) show how both sides might be right and wrong, or how compromise may (or may not) have been a reasonable middle ground. There is enough information for young people to begin to have a balanced picture of events and to begin the life-long journey of making sense of our history.

 

Bill

 

I've been searching for The Drama of American History books, but they don't seem to be easily available. I see they have some available from independent sellers on Amazon. How many books are in the series? I counted around 15 titles. Whew. This one is going to set me back... :lol: Do you have a link where all the books are listed?

[Capt_Uhura]

heidi, there is a spin-off thread to this one. In that thread, SpyCar via Moira, listed all the titles to the series. My library through interlibrary loan in our system has most of them. Have you checked your library?

[lovemykids]

You can only get the student book and teacher book through used sources. If you sign up for K12 logic stage history course, you can sign up for a month and then cancel and keep the materials, I've been told. I got mine used through AMazon Marketplace.

 

Here's the teacher guide for K12 world history A (vol1 of the series) http://www.amazon.com/Intermediate-History-Teacher-Answer-Semesters/dp/B000TQENFS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276175931&sr=8-1

 

Here's the student pages http://www.amazon.com/K12-Intermediate-World-History-Semesters/dp/B001BKJ6XU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276175973&sr=8-3

 

If you search AMazon for K12 Intermediate WOrld History it pulls up both level A and level B - I forget where the breaks are but you can find that out at the K12 website.

 

hth,

Capt_Uhura

 

Thank you.

[Heidi @ Mt Hope]

heidi, there is a spin-off thread to this one. In that thread, SpyCar via Moira, listed all the titles to the series. My library through interlibrary loan in our system has most of them. Have you checked your library?

 

Ah, thanks, I'll check that out. I did check my library with no luck. Sigh.

[nmoira]

I've been searching for The Drama of American History books, but they don't seem to be easily available. I see they have some available from independent sellers on Amazon. How many books are in the series? I counted around 15 titles. Whew. This one is going to set me back... :lol: Do you have a link where all the books are listed?

There are 23 titles. All but one, The Rise of Industry, are currently available at reasonable prices. Someday I'll give these Amazon links.

 

Here's a list of the titles in the series:

 

 

• Clash of Cultures: Prehistory to 1638, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• The Paradox of Jamestown, 1585 to 1700, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• The French and Indian War, 1660 to 1763, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• The American Revolution, 1763 to 1783, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• Pilgrims and Puritans, 1620 to 1676, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• Creating the Constitution, 1787, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• Building a New Nation, 1789 to 1803, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• Andrew Jackson's America, 1821 to 1850, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• Hispanic America, Texas, and the Mexican War, 1835 to 1850, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• The Jeffersonian Republicans, 1800 to 1820, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• The Civil War, 1860 to 1866, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• Slavery and the Coming of the Civil War, 1831 to 1861, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• Reconstruction and the Rise of Jim Crow, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• The Rise of Industry: 1860 to 1900, Marshall Cavendish (New York, NY), 1999.

• A Century of Immigration: 1820 to 1924, Marshall Cavendish/Benchmark Books (Tarrytown, NY), 1999.

• Indians, Cowboys, and Farmers, 1865 to 1910, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 2000.

• The United States Enters the World Stage: From Alaska through World War I, 1867 to 1919, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 2000.

• Progressivism, the Great Depression, and the New Deal, 1901 to 1941, Benchmark/Cavendish (Tarrytown, NY), 2000.

• The Rise of the Cities, Cavendish/Benchmark (Tarrytown, NY), 2000.

• United States in World War II, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 2001.

• The Changing Face of American Society, 1945 to 2000, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 2001.

• The United States in the Cold War, Benchmark/Cavendish (Tarrytown, NY), 2002.

• The Middle Road: American Politics, 1945 to 2000, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 2002.

 

[Heidi @ Mt Hope]

There are 23 titles. All but one, The Rise of Industry, are currently available at reasonable prices. Someday I'll give these Amazon links.

 

Here's a list of the titles in the series:

 

 

• Clash of Cultures: Prehistory to 1638, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• The Paradox of Jamestown, 1585 to 1700, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• The French and Indian War, 1660 to 1763, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• The American Revolution, 1763 to 1783, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• Pilgrims and Puritans, 1620 to 1676, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• Creating the Constitution, 1787, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• Building a New Nation, 1789 to 1803, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• Andrew Jackson's America, 1821 to 1850, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• Hispanic America, Texas, and the Mexican War, 1835 to 1850, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• The Jeffersonian Republicans, 1800 to 1820, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• The Civil War, 1860 to 1866, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• Slavery and the Coming of the Civil War, 1831 to 1861, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• Reconstruction and the Rise of Jim Crow, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 1998.

• The Rise of Industry: 1860 to 1900, Marshall Cavendish (New York, NY), 1999.

• A Century of Immigration: 1820 to 1924, Marshall Cavendish/Benchmark Books (Tarrytown, NY), 1999.

• Indians, Cowboys, and Farmers, 1865 to 1910, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 2000.

• The United States Enters the World Stage: From Alaska through World War I, 1867 to 1919, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 2000.

• Progressivism, the Great Depression, and the New Deal, 1901 to 1941, Benchmark/Cavendish (Tarrytown, NY), 2000.

• The Rise of the Cities, Cavendish/Benchmark (Tarrytown, NY), 2000.

• United States in World War II, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 2001.

• The Changing Face of American Society, 1945 to 2000, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 2001.

• The United States in the Cold War, Benchmark/Cavendish (Tarrytown, NY), 2002.

• The Middle Road: American Politics, 1945 to 2000, Benchmark Books (New York, NY), 2002.

 

 

Thanks so much for this list, Moira. I've purchased a couple used copies to check them out. It looks like the Amazon price is $35 per title. At 23 titles, well, I don't think I'll be purchasing them new. :)

[Donna T.]

I checked one out from our public library today. I read Pilgrims and Puritans over lunch. This particular book is 86 pages long with a large print and a number of attractive full-color illustrations. I'm mentioning that in case anyone is wondering how long it would take to get through so many titles. I was wondering that myself.

 

:thumbup1: - I like it.

[Spy Car]

:thumbup1: - I like it.

 

This excites me!

 

It really does.

 

Bill

[nmoira]

I hesitated to recommend these earlier, because the sets are usually so expensive, but I really like The World in Ancient Times and The Medieval and Early Modern World from OUP. I picked of both of these sets for well under $100 each during the annual Oxford holiday sale a couple years ago.

[Capt_Uhura]

nmoira - Do you know if Oxford has such sales still? I loved the Ancient Times book I checked out. I'd love to have a set in my home library.

[nmoira]

 

nmoira - Do you know if Oxford has such sales still? I loved the Ancient Times book I checked out. I'd love to have a set in my home library.

Every December, thought there's no guarantee as to what will be on sale, or at what discount. Neither set was significantly discounted last December. I'm still kicking myself for not getting up the Oxford Latin Dictionary for $99 when I picked up the history sets.

[Capt_Uhura]

Ok. Please, please post in December if you get notified of a sale. I'll keep all fingers crossed the sets go on sale!

[nmoira]

 

Ok. Please, please post in December if you get notified of a sale. I'll keep all fingers crossed the sets go on sale!

Don't worry. I check every year. :)

[Corraleno]

I hesitated to recommend these earlier, because the sets are usually so expensive, but I really like The World in Ancient Times and The Medieval and Early Modern World from OUP. I picked of both of these sets for well under $100 each during the annual Oxford holiday sale a couple years ago.

:iagree:

We love these books, I bought both sets on sale from Amazon about a year & a half ago.

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

Ok. Please, please post in December if you get notified of a sale. I'll keep all fingers crossed the sets go on sale!

If you put the sets in your shopping cart and click "save for later," then whenever you check your shopping cart, it will show you any changes in price since you last logged in. When you see the price drop, you just move it up into your cart and check out.

 

Jackie

[Capt_Uhura]

You mean at Amazon or at Oxford U. Press?

[nmoira]

 

You mean at Amazon or at Oxford U. Press?

I don't know how far the sale extends vendor-wise. I assume beyond Amazon, but that's all I check.

[Corraleno]

If you put the sets in your shopping cart and click "save for later," then whenever you check your shopping cart, it will show you any changes in price since you last logged in. When you see the price drop, you just move it up into your cart and check out.

 

Jackie

 

You mean at Amazon or at Oxford U. Press?

Amazon.

 

Jackie

[Capt_Uhura]

I put it in my shopping cart and then saved for later! Keeping my fingers crossed!

[Jennay]

Thanks so much for this list, Moira. I've purchased a couple used copies to check them out. It looks like the Amazon price is $35 per title. At 23 titles, well, I don't think I'll be purchasing them new. :)

 

www.abebooks.com has many for $4 each with free shipping.

[Jen S in Va]

I checked one out from our public library today. I read Pilgrims and Puritans over lunch. This particular book is 86 pages long with a large print and a number of attractive full-color illustrations. I'm mentioning that in case anyone is wondering how long it would take to get through so many titles. I was wondering that myself.

 

:thumbup1: - I like it.

 

I checked out one from our library as well, even though I won't need the series for the coming year. Just wanted to see what they are like. I'm fortunate, in that it appears as though my library has most, if not all, of the Drama titles. I'm pretty sure I used some of Collier's books in the past with my older two kids and always have come back to them. I made a pass through all 4 years of TOG using the classic version with my older two--seems to me we used Hakim, Spielvogel with the eldest, as our spines then. I'd never heard of the Marshall book until reading about it here. Prior to that I was piecing together my own history curriculum. I am a TOG burnout/dropout and don't see myself returning to it with my youngest.

 

At our state convention I saw a bunch of vendors carrying All American History--any opinions on that?