calling all GMC/Chevy owners of trucks/SUV's

[Denisemomof4]

I used to own a Suburban. I loved the vehicle SO MUCH that I assumed we'd run it into the ground (it's the only vehicle I ever had which almost reached 100k miles, and I was hoping it would make it to 200k!) and get another. Our plans were changed when our brand new vehicle started to have problems when it had 36k miles on it, under warranty, and the issues were never resolved. Before we traded it in with 99k miles on it, we had spent too much in repairs, and then the 4wd went out on it. We absolutely can NOT live without 4wd and we were sick of paying for repairs.

 

We traded it in and I had that car longer than any car I'd ever had in my life, 7 years. The dealership told me it looked brand new! I said my goodbyes and drove off in my Honda Pilot. MISTAKE. I've NEVER liked this car. It's just TOO SMALL for our family...... and I miss my Suburban!

 

So dh and I are in the midst of looking for new cars. This time if we go with a GMC or Suburban we're going to try used, because we ALWAYS buy new and aside from the Pilot, there are always issues. I just found a 2007 GMC Yukon with 20k miles on it!!! It's loaded (which I prefer as I actually use ALL the extras!) and has four bucket seats, which I really want. Dh and I went online and WOW - GMC and Chevy have SERIOUS quality issues!!!

 

We saw on the car fax that the Yukon was seen once for electrical, computer and engine issues but nothing was found. Of course nothing was found! I know that scenario WELL!!! If you own one of these vehicles, can you please share your experience?

 

Also, I'm concerned that a 2007 only has 20k miles on it. Although it's illegal, I'm wondering if they could have changed the mileage on the computerized odometer???

[Michelle in MO]

Also, I'm concerned that a 2007 only has 20k miles on it. Although it's illegal, I'm wondering if they could have changed the mileage on the computerized odometer???

 

I can't remember the name of the website, but if you get the VIN number, there's a way to do a search using the VIN number to see if the vehicle has had any prior accidents and, I think, if the mileage has been changed at all.

 

The Suburban is a nice vehicle for families, but overall our family has not had great success with GM or Chevrolet products. My parents owned a Suburban for years, however, and it was very well-built.

 

I'm afraid I'm not much help, but I am almost certain about the first tip---check the VIN number.

[Denisemomof4]

The Suburban is a nice vehicle for families, but overall our family has not had great success with GM or Chevrolet products. My parents owned a Suburban for years, however, and it was very well-built.

 

 

 

this is the information I'm looking for. Can you share what your experience was? And the year of said vehicles?

[Wheres Toto]

We have a Suburban but its a pretty old one - 2003. We haven't had any problems with it other than those that were related to a pretty bad car accident we had in it (hit a guardrail head on - $20,000 in damages) but those were eventually resolved. We still drive it and its going strong (knock on wood) with around 130,000 miles on it. We regularly take long trips and tow an 18 foot boat.

 

I don't know what we'll do when this goes. Our other vehicle is a 2003 Honda Civic - can't even fit us and all three kids much less anything else (it was mine before remarried in 2004). We need something big - this past weekend we went camping without our oldest and still had the entire back (with the third row out) AND the one remaining seat in the second row AND a car top carrier completely full of stuff. Plus we were towing the boat. I'm sorry to hear the more recent Suburbans are having these kind of problems because it really is going to be an issue when we need a new one.:001_huh:

[elegantlion]

We have a GMC & a Chevy, but we didn't buy ours until they were much closer to the 100k mark. I've been well pleased with both. We've dealt with some maintenance and last week my Jimmy got a crack in the radiator. but at 200k (Chevy truck) and 165k (GMC Jimmy) miles they're doing better than expected.

 

I wonder if the 20k mileage could be from being used as a 3rd vehicle? I know a lot of people parked their bigger SUVs when gas was so expensive.

[KatieJ]

We have a 2007 Yukon XL, which we bought slightly used. THe dealership also owns a local sports team and the vehicle was loaned out to them for the first year or so and there was some minor things to be repaired. We did get a full warranty when we bought it.

 

We did have to take it in for a light on the dash that kept coming on and it was a faulty switch, under warranty and no problem to fix.

We have owned it for 2.5 years now and really have had no problems with it. I just went thru my folder with all repair slips for that truck and no, it's been fine.

[usetoschool]

The last comment about their Suburban being old makes me :lol: because it shocked me when I realized how old ours really is - 1993. It has 258,000 miles on it and I have no plans for trading it in any time soon, mostly because I have replaced just about everything on it now and it should be good for another 100,000 miles. My mechanic loves it because it is easy to work on and the parts are all just big hunks of metal and they didn't change the design of the engine parts for years so used/rebuilt stuff is easy to come by. Even with this oldy moldy model the one problem I have had is electrical...seems to be a GM flaw. Mine is a 2500 4WD.

 

Part of the reason I won't be trading it in has to do with the size - there just isn't anything else out there that is as roomy or hard working and practical. And even after all these years it is still pretty nice looking and the interior is still pretty cushy and deluxe - just don't try to adjust the passenger side mirror remotely or get the glove box light to come on when you really need it. And I sometimes have to give the left headlight a whack to get it to come on :lol:.

[Guest ToGMom]

We have a 1993 Chevy Suburban with 206,000 on it... :) LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the vehicle.

 

We bought it USED about 5 years ago with over 100,000 on it. We've done some basic maintenance type stuff but nothing major. The key to these type vehicles is regular maintenance like oil changes, radiator flushes, tranny service, etc.

 

We'll keep driving it until it dies...and then I'm not sure what we'll do...probably another Suburban-type vehicle.

[Denisemomof4]

 

I wonder if the 20k mileage could be from being used as a 3rd vehicle? I know a lot of people parked their bigger SUVs when gas was so expensive.

 

I'm not sure. It was a leased vehicle, returned when the lease was over, went to auction, came to NH. That's all I know!

 

As dh and I see it, we have TWO options if we want space. The Ford Excursion, which neither of us want to get, and we certainly don't believe their quality is any different, and the GMC/CHevy. our 1999 Suburban had too many issues and I fear the quality has gotten worse.

 

We need a vehicle that will seat 6 people, three of them over 6 feet tall, AND be able to haul hundreds of pounds of grain, AND be able to tow, AND be able to seat four people and two potbellies. I don't want to rely on a trailer for potbellies because if there was an emergency in the winter, I couldn't put them in a trailer.

 

We don't feel comfortable putting a van on our dirt road. And we DEFINITELY need AWD or 4wd. Front wheel drive could work but this CA girl prefers 4WD. So, do you agree our choices are limited?

 

BTW, we don't take potbellies for rides in cars for the enjoyment of it. It's only to bring them to the vet. :tongue_smilie:

[Wheres Toto]

We need a vehicle that will seat 6 people, three of them over 6 feet tall, AND be able to haul hundreds of pounds of grain, AND be able to tow, AND be able to seat four people and two potbellies. I don't want to rely on a trailer for potbellies because if there was an emergency in the winter, I couldn't put them in a trailer.

 

We don't feel comfortable putting a van on our dirt road. And we DEFINITELY need AWD or 4wd. Front wheel drive could work but this CA girl prefers 4WD. So, do you agree our choices are limited?

 

BTW, we don't take potbellies for rides in cars for the enjoyment of it. It's only to bring them to the vet. :tongue_smilie:

 

Your options are definitely limited. When we had our accident, we weren't sure if it was going to be totaled ($20,000 in damage but book value was still $35,000 at that point so nope) and we did some casual looking around. We needed something that would hold 2 adults, 1 adult-sized teenager (she's already 5'7") and any friends she'd bring along, 2 car seats, a large dog (Samoyed), gear for all of the above (we camp almost every weekend in Spring/Summer/Fall and DH fishes) plus haul the boat and have 4wd. We didn't really see much of anything that would work and be comfortable - everything we looked at had less cargo room (so no room for the dog), insufficient towing or seats that wouldn't fit at least one passenger next to two car seats. If you do find anything, make sure to post to let the rest of us know. :D

[H.S. Burrow]

I used to own a Suburban. I loved the vehicle SO MUCH that I assumed we'd run it into the ground (it's the only vehicle I ever had which almost reached 100k miles, and I was hoping it would make it to 200k!) and get another. Our plans were changed when our brand new vehicle started to have problems when it had 36k miles on it, under warranty, and the issues were never resolved. Before we traded it in with 99k miles on it, we had spent too much in repairs, and then the 4wd went out on it. We absolutely can NOT live without 4wd and we were sick of paying for repairs.

 

We traded it in and I had that car longer than any car I'd ever had in my life, 7 years. The dealership told me it looked brand new! I said my goodbyes and drove off in my Honda Pilot. MISTAKE. I've NEVER liked this car. It's just TOO SMALL for our family...... and I miss my Suburban!

 

So dh and I are in the midst of looking for new cars. This time if we go with a GMC or Suburban we're going to try used, because we ALWAYS buy new and aside from the Pilot, there are always issues. I just found a 2007 GMC Yukon with 20k miles on it!!! It's loaded (which I prefer as I actually use ALL the extras!) and has four bucket seats, which I really want. Dh and I went online and WOW - GMC and Chevy have SERIOUS quality issues!!!

 

We saw on the car fax that the Yukon was seen once for electrical, computer and engine issues but nothing was found. Of course nothing was found! I know that scenario WELL!!! If you own one of these vehicles, can you please share your experience?

 

Also, I'm concerned that a 2007 only has 20k miles on it. Although it's illegal, I'm wondering if they could have changed the mileage on the computerized odometer???

 

 

I own a 1998 Chevy Tahoe 4wd (fully loaded) that I bought in 2006 with 86,000 miles on it. I don't know how many are on it right now as my husband has it out of state. We just had some basic repairs completed (some gasket/seal thingies went out and 2 sensors) and those are the ONLY repairs we've had to make in 4 years. Oh and on our cross country trip we averaged about 20 miles per gallon.

 

We do regular maintenance like replace the filters and change the oil as needed.

 

My husband has a 2006 GMC Sierra pickup that we bought new in 2006 and we've had no problems at all.

 

My in-laws have a 2002 Yukon XL (fully loaded) they bought used in 2004 (I think it had about 25,000 miles on it) and they've had no problems with that.

 

I hope this helps.

[lmrich]

Ours is 2002 (I think). We got it used and I LOVE IT! We have 132K on it now and it has had regular maintance. We had trouble with the cargo door not locking - got it fixed and I can't close the shade on the sunroof. That is it! We are going to drive it til we can't. My sister bought one as well; hers was new and she hasn't had any problems with it. She has had a hard time finding one to replace it at a reasonable cost.

[Denisemomof4]

Your options are definitely limited. When we had our accident, we weren't sure if it was going to be totaled ($20,000 in damage but book value was still $35,000 at that point so nope) and we did some casual looking around. We needed something that would hold 2 adults, 1 adult-sized teenager (she's already 5'7") and any friends she'd bring along, 2 car seats, a large dog (Samoyed), gear for all of the above (we camp almost every weekend in Spring/Summer/Fall and DH fishes) plus haul the boat and have 4wd. We didn't really see much of anything that would work and be comfortable - everything we looked at had less cargo room (so no room for the dog), insufficient towing or seats that wouldn't fit at least one passenger next to two car seats. If you do find anything, make sure to post to let the rest of us know. :D

 

There isn't anything!!! We don't tow a boat, but we do tow 6 kayaks. :D We also haul our own hay home. We truly need a WORKER vehicle and we own a farm...... and there just aren't any other options. My greyhound would be THRILLED to be able to stand between the two buckets in the back and have his head right by me. :D

 

I had two llamas delivered in a minivan. I've always wanted to take a llama for a ride and have someone operate the camcorder so we could record their reactions. :lol::lol::lol:

[TN Mama]

I think Carfax is the company that provides buyers with the history of a car (how many owners, any wrecks, etc).

 

My husband owns a 2004 GMC Sierra with over 100,000 and we haven't had any troubles with it. We purchased used. My Mom has owned 3 GMC Yukon's - all have had well over 100,000 when she traded in. Her current one is closer to 200k if I recall correctly. She has only had one issue that I remember and it was covered under warranty.

 

I am currently drooling over the GMC Acadia. Haven't had the chance to test drive yet, but hoping to in the near future.

[secular_mom]

We bought ours (used) in SoCal, it was mostly assembled in Mexico with parts made in Canada- it's a '99 GMC Suburban. I love it, and we haven't had any problems with it. My husband baby's our vehicles and they last a long time (he changes the oil and does all the maintenance himself, and he does all the repairs himself so long as he is capable of doing them). We always get the carfax reports when we are looking for a 'new' vehicle.

[Jackie in NE]

We own an '02 suburban. Cose to 200k HARD miles on it. Bucking snow and mud on the ranch, pulling trailers, hauling mineral through mountain pastures to the cattle. But hardest of all on it are the 4 ranch kids! Anyway, I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE this truck. The balance and 4-wheel drive cannot be beat. It can get places that the ranch truck can't. I grew up in a Ford family. My brother owns an expedition which I don't really care for. It just doesn't feel as solid as my suburban. I sure hope that Chevy can iron out any problems with the newer models before I have to trade this one in, which I'm hoping will not be for another 100k or so.....

Also want to make a plug for our ranch truck. Dodge cummins engine. Excellent. I would look at anything with that motor in it, although I don't know if they make any passenger type SUVs with those.

 

Cheers, Jackie

[MariannNOVA]

I am watching this thread with great interest - my hummer is going back soon - :crying: - and we have pretty much desired that a Suburban is what we are going to get. We are going to look for a gently used one as opposed to a new one - it is the only thing that will carry the kids, the grand-kids, the dog, the lacrosse equipment, and the golf clubs.:D

[Greta]

We have a 2000 Suburban, and it has left my dh (the primary driver of it) stranded four times. I realize this vehicle is pretty old by most standards, but not all of these four events were recent. We had problems early on.

 

Right now it's sitting in the driveway and hubby is riding his bike to work. There is some sort of problem with the electrical system that's causing the transmission to be stuck in second gear. We've had it looked at once and they couldn't figure out what was wrong with it. We're going to try a different place next week.

 

By contrast, I drive a Toyota that is four years older. This is a fourteen year old car, and it has NEVER broken down on me, and we've never had to do anything but basic maintenance such as brakes and tires.

 

We learned our lesson, and don't plan to by any GM products in the future. It's a shame really, because my dh has enjoyed the Suburban when it runs. He is an outdoor enthusiast, and uses the Burb for trips to Colorado for skiing, mountaineering, etc. It would be the perfect vehicle for that sort of thing if it were reliable.

[Tutor]

One of the reasons we bought a used Suburban (some day we'll own a car younger than at least one of our children :D ) is because they are generally cheaper to repair. We actually looked at costs of replacing items like the engine and such when deciding on a Suburban. Our truck has about 150,000 miles on it (we bought it with around 80,000 miles on it). We replaced the engine at about 125,000 miles, just replaced the brake system, and will be replacing the exhaust system in the next month or so (apparently the previous owner was not good about cleaning the salt deposits off after winter). I don't know what the engine cost because our mechanic and a friend of his replaced it free of charge to us plus paid for an extended warranty... based on research we did, I am guessing this was about $3000 (they put in a new engine - we would have done a rebuilt for about half the cost). The brake and exhaust systems will cost about $800 total to replace when they are done. Once these repairs are made, we should get another 100,000 miles out of the truck. So for a total cost (purchase price plus major repairs) of just under $9000, we have a truck that should last us about 10 years.

 

I should also mention that this is our "can carry everybody" vehicle. We have another car that only seats 5 that we use when not everyone has to travel somewhere and for dh to take to school and back, so this helps cut down on wear-an-tear on the truck and saves us on gas. That car has cost us about $1000 so far - to purchase and in some minor repairs.

 

I have no idea what a newer Suburban costs to repair (although I covet the highway mileage the newer ones get), but I would definitely take repair costs/ life expectancy of the truck into consideration when buying. I *heart* my Suburban.

[DarlaS]

I wonder if the 20k mileage could be from being used as a 3rd vehicle? I know a lot of people parked their bigger SUVs when gas was so expensive.

 

Maybe they lived in an urban place and it's all city mileage.

 

We are rural (10-15 miles or more from everything) and our SUV, a Chevy Traverse, is our main family car. I expect it to only have about that on it when it's 3 years old. It has just over 7000 miles on it now, and it will be one year old first week of July.

 

I just don't drive every day like some people do. My mileage goes in spurts. I think I put 2k on it the first month we owned it--and then tapered off for a bit etc.

[MamaT]

Denise,

 

We have a 2003 Tahoe with about 150K miles on it. It is still going strong. We did have to replace the transmission on it a couple of years ago, but we go camping and haul a fully loaded camping trailer 4-5 times a year. We are about to buy something smaller for me to use as a run-around car and give the Tahoe to our 17yo (until we need it for trips!).

[Teachin'Mine]

What about a Ford Expedition or Explorer? The hybrid Escape has awesome mpg, but I think it's smaller than what you'd like.

[Michelle in MO]

The vehicles we didn't have success with were Chevrolet Impalas. It seemed like as soon as the warranty period was over, we started having major problems with the cars.

 

I believe the website I was thinking of might be Carfax--or something like that.

 

Now, as to the Suburban, we have not personally owned a Suburban, but I know my parents owned one and literally drove it until it completely wore it. It lasted for years and years.

 

HTH!

[DarlaS]

What about a Ford Expedition or Explorer? The hybrid Escape has awesome mpg' date=' but I think it's smaller than what you'd like.[/quote']

 

 

The Explorer is a good suggestion but even that is kind of cramped in certain situations. If you're taking leggy teens and adolecents anywhere very often (with all their STUFF) it's going to be tight.

 

I really wanted an Escape. I went to look at one though and it was tiny compared to my mini-van so you're right on about it being small. My kids are on the small/slight side and no way would anyone bigger than my 9 yo have been comfortable in the back seat for very long.

 

I'm 5'6" and my test of any potential vehicle was to get in the 2nd and 3rd row seats (if it had them) myself (One of my kids is taller than me and the next one soon will be.). If I was cramped, it didn't even get taken for a test drive. The Traverse passed my test with flying colors. Seriously great legroom for adults even in the 3rd row--and I've ended up riding there myself so that was a good move. :D

[DarlaS]

The vehicles we didn't have success with were Chevrolet Impalas. It seemed like as soon as the warranty period was over, we started having major problems with the cars.

 

I believe the website I was thinking of might be Carfax--or something like that.

 

Now, as to the Suburban, we have not personally owned a Suburban, but I know my parents owned one and literally drove it until it completely wore it. It lasted for years and years.

 

HTH!

 

My FIL has one he's had for years. (MIL passed away a few years back). I'm surprised he hasn't downsized. He apparently likes it a lot.

[mammaruss]

We had a few Suburbans over the years. We LOVED the Suburbans from the late 80's-mid 90's. Imo, something happened with the quality of the Subs after that....we purchased a new one in later 1999 and had a lot of problems that the mechanics could not figure out what was wrong--and we were stranded numerous times. The final straw was when our back window imploded when we turned on the defrost. All of the metal around the entire back window was all twisted....it was horrifying. We finally traded it in--with only 12,000 miles since I refused to drive it anymore.....We switched over to the Excursion--diesel. We owned 4 of those over the short time they were making those---they were all leased--so we kept getting new ones every 2 years. When they quit making those--I downsized to a Freestyle--a mini SUV-all wheel drive---the lease is up on that and they dont make them anymore..but I don't miss it. We are again on the lookout for an Excursion that is good shape--we do miss it!! I did not enjoy driving it--parking lots were awful with that huge tank--but I do miss the room!

Good luck on your search!

[Denisemomof4]

The Explorer is a good suggestion but even that is kind of cramped in certain situations. If you're taking leggy teens and adolecents anywhere very often (with all their STUFF) it's going to be tight.

 

 

 

This is our issue. The one I hope to look at today or tomorrow has four bucket seats so the teens can recline to be more comfortable. Dh is 6'2, oldest ds same, younger ds 6/1 and doctors say he's going to be taller and bigger than dh and other ds.

 

Oldest dd is 5 feet at 10, so she can sit in the middle and stretch on long rides. But really, oldest ds won't be going out with us much anymore. He's joining the reserves and starting college.

 

We really need the space. Even when I'm out with my two girls and go grocery shopping for a family of six, I run out of room with my 3rd row seat down. I need a bigger car!

 

Oh, the Yukon I'm interested in is from NJ, so I guess I can understand why the mileage is lower. I'm telling you, I need 3 rows of seats AND a full cargo space. It's why I can't look at a Tahoe.\

 

Thanks everyone!

[laughing lioness]

Just wanted to jump in on the iloveburb's...ours is a 92 GMC, which we bought 12 years ago for $12K, still looks decent and currently has 351,000 on it. I didn't think we'd ever use it again as a "main" car but one of our vans died last fall so it's our 2nd car again. It's still going strong.

We LOVE our suburban!!

[musicmommy]

We have a 2001 Suburban which we've been loving! We've only had it a few months now, but we bought it with 111,000 miles on it. A few weeks ago we drove it from Northwest Oregon down to Disneyland and back and it was great.

 

When we started looking for something larger, I told my dh that I wanted an SUV outside with a mini-van inside. We're in the process of adopting a 4th child so I wanted easy access for everything. We got 2nd row captain's chairs and are so happy with those.

 

It was reassuring around here that there are a ton of 1999 - 2001 Suburbans on the road. When we were in the process of trying to find one, I would ask other owners about theirs if i saw them in a parking lot, etc. Lots of good reports. I know that when we were looking and researching, I was reminded that many times, only the people who have problems are reporting them so it doesn't give a truly accurate picture?

 

Yeah, the gas mileage isn't great. We don't drive a whole lot, but we needed something large for the family, the dogs and camping gear.

[Teachin'Mine]

The Explorer is a good suggestion but even that is kind of cramped in certain situations. If you're taking leggy teens and adolecents anywhere very often (with all their STUFF) it's going to be tight.

 

I really wanted an Escape. I went to look at one though and it was tiny compared to my mini-van so you're right on about it being small. My kids are on the small/slight side and no way would anyone bigger than my 9 yo have been comfortable in the back seat for very long.

 

I'm 5'6" and my test of any potential vehicle was to get in the 2nd and 3rd row seats (if it had them) myself (One of my kids is taller than me and the next one soon will be.). If I was cramped, it didn't even get taken for a test drive. The Traverse passed my test with flying colors. Seriously great legroom for adults even in the 3rd row--and I've ended up riding there myself so that was a good move. :D

 

Not sure how the Expedition compares to the Suburban room wise, but if you go with the diesel, the mpg is pretty good. They're nice and roomy inside too and I would think the four captains chairs is an option.

 

On edit: Captains chairs are an option on certain models - Eddie Bauer and King Ranch for example, but the diesel engine isn't. I think it's rated at 14/20 mpg which isn't bad.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Teachin'Mine

[Denisemomof4]

There's this weird, long standing hot topic among Americans:

 

FORD or CHEVY

 

My dh won't buy a Ford but honestly, I think both have the same quality issues anyway. It appears that many/most don't have issues, but we were the unfortunate ones who did.

 

Dh DID find out that in the 2007 models that there was one day, in particular, which produced many Chevy's and GMC's that had a huge amount of issues. We need to check on that.

 

There are several GMC's gently used, but the one with the lowest mileage is a 2007. It's only been checked out once in the three years the previous owners had leased it.

[Becca211]

We have a GMC 2007, and my mom has a 2006. The only problem either of us has had is that the control panel goes out. Apparently it is a problem they are aware of, and if it happens under 60,000 miles they will replace it for free. After 70,000 they provide the part and you pay for the work. I love mine!

[Denisemomof4]

We have a GMC 2007, and my mom has a 2006. The only problem either of us has had is that the control panel goes out. Apparently it is a problem they are aware of, and if it happens under 60,000 miles they will replace it for free. After 70,000 they provide the part and you pay for the work. I love mine!

 

Do you know if that's an expensive fix?

 

Honestly, I told dh that I'd rather pay extra in repairs and have SPACE again than save some money and have to keep this cramped Pilot.

 

Pilots are a perfectly fine car, and maybe even for families with as many kids as mine. It's NOT a good choice for a family of giants. :001_smile:

 

I also got stuck in the snow this year twice in my Pilot, and once during white out conditions on top of the Kangamangus Highway! It was SO scary and I called dh crying my eyes out!!! We were stuck for awhile and the only vehicle to pass by us, other than a state highway truck, was a truck carrying a team of sled dogs!!! :D I was only up there because it was supposed to be a clear day. NOT!!!!

 

Never, EVER got stuck with my Suburban!!! BUT, the Suburban fishtailed somewhat on snowy highways, the Pilot never did. Personally, I don't like the front wheel drive of the Pilot either, and most people in snowy areas prefer front of 4wd. To each his own.

 

I'm so thankful for everyone's responses and plan to go check out the vehicles tomorrow! I may not be driving my Pilot much longer!!!