What is the difference between Charlotte Mason and Waldorf?

[HollyBee]

I've been reading the recent Waldorf threads, and they've piqued my interest. I've also done some reading on CM, which also appeals to me. Other than the spiritual aspect, I'm a little confused as to the differences between the two. They seem very similar. Or maybe I just need more coffee. :001_huh:

 

Can anyone compare/contrast these for me?

 

Thanks!

[....]

Ya' know (I'm drinking coffee too)...both Charlotte Mason AND Waldorf are very appealing to us. Categorically-speaking, I think Charlotte Mason was a classical educator and the whole Waldorf philosophy is very different from classical ed. However, I have seen a lot of similarities between the two.

 

Personally, we always do a Core from Sonlight (we're in Core 2) and I think that is very Charlotte Mason. This fall, we're also starting Oak Meadow, which is Waldorfish in the early grades. So, I guess you could say that we're doing a combination of the two?

[fairytalemama]

Argh...after writing a really well thought out response, my computer ate it. Grrrrr....

 

Well, let me attempt to recreate it. I don't claim to be a CM or Waldorf expert and this will merely scratch the surface, but here's my attempt to compare/contrast---

 

The similarities are most apparent in the early years. Both emphasize play (both imaginative and outdoor), both are more art and music focused than other methods, and both emphasize having a daily rhythm or routine and formation of good habits by modelling the behavior of adults. Also they both encourage little or no media exposure (i.e. TV, computer), although Waldorf is more strict on this point.

 

The differences become pronounced as the years progress. CM and Waldorf diverge almost immediately once school age is reached. Here are some of the main differences.

1. CM emphasizes short lessons vs. Waldorf teaching via main lesson block. A CM school would have most subjects taught everyday in short lessons with the length based on student age. A main lesson block in a Waldorf school would be on one topic for a couple hours a day for 4-6 weeks.

2. CM begins teaching reading and writing in 1st grade vs. Waldorf teaches letters in 1st grade, followed by writing, and reading is taught in 2nd grade.

3. CM encourages reading vs. Waldorf encourages storytelling.

4. And the biggest reason that Waldorf is different from CM is that at a Waldorf school certain topics are taught at certain ages for pedagogical reasons stemming from anthroposophy, a spiritual philosophy developed by Rudolf Steiner.

 

In my opinion, most families who call themselves "Waldorf inspired" find the art/music/nature/play aspects very appealing, but don't really understand the pedagogical reasoning why things are taught when they are. If you are really interested in learning more about Waldorf, I would recommend joining the Homeschooling Waldorf Yahoo group or the blog www.theparentingpassageway.com is also helpful. Ooooh and I almost forgot, here's a great chart that explains when things are taught in Waldorf ---- http://www.beaconmama.com/WaldorfTable.pdf

 

As far as Oak Meadow goes, most Waldorf purists don't consider it Waldorf at all because it strays so far from the Waldorf pedagogy in order to meet state standards.

 

Hope this helps! :)

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

Oh thanks for the comparison fairytale mama! Very interesting! I lean towards the Waldorf reading approach, but mostly because it seems to jive with following my childrens natural interest. We are following that schedule you posted exactly with my oldest! Anyone else you know who has done this? Very interested to hear more. This article has always fascinated me.

 

Teaching Reading, Writing and Spelling

 

http://www.waldorfinthehome.org/2008/02/teaching_reading_writing_and_s.html

 

 

Honestly, I have no formed opinions just not sure what the heck I am doing and seem to err on the Waldory side I guess!

Edited May 20, 2010 by mommyjen

[HollyBee]

Thank you, Fairy Tale Mama--it does help! Since my kids are older (soon to be 6th and 4th grades), the differences between the two would be fairly significant.

 

Food for thought.

 

I appreciate it!

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

Oh thanks for the comparison fairytale mama! Very interesting! I lean towards the Waldorf reading approach, but mostly because it seems to jive with following my childrens natural interest. We are following that schedule you posted exactly with my oldest! Anyone else you know who has done this? Very interested to hear more. This article has always fascinated me.

 

Teaching Reading, Writing and Spelling

 

http://www.waldorfinthehome.org/2008/02/teaching_reading_writing_and_s.html

 

 

Honestly, I have no formed opinions just not sure what the heck I am doing and seem to err on the Waldory side I guess!

 

bump!

[LoveBaby]

This is fascinating!

 

I have been considering the similarities and differences over the last couple of weeks as well. I know enough about Waldorf to be dangerous, but not enough to put it into practice, yet. I do know that the more I contemplate things for this fall with my little guy, that Waldorf seems so much more logical and right for him.

 

But, so does Charlotte Mason. Especially in the early years they are very similar. Charlotte doesn't delve into the spiritual unfolding in the same way that Waldorf does, but she was right on in thinking that no formal lessons should be taught before age 6, that observation and nature study and play and lots of time out of doors were essential for little people. And handicrafts! I see alot of Charlotte Mason sites talk about handicrafts, but as far as I've seen don't give a lot of practial "do this" and then the support to do so. Handicrafts become part of the curriculum in Waldorf and are very meaningful, tangible and practicle. Making needle-felted gnomes for math/seasonal tables for example! She also speaks a lot of habit, which in my mind are one in the same as rhythm's in Waldorf.

 

Can someone explain to me Lesson Blocks and how those are used in the older years?

[Crimson Wife]

I came across Understanding Waldorf Education: Teaching from the Inside Out by Jack Petrash at my local library last fall. I read it because a number of families in my local support group follow the Waldorf approach and I was curious about the approach. The book goes on at length about the Waldorf educational philosophy & it convinced me that approach isn't right for my family. It seemed clear that academics are de-emphasized in favor of other concerns. I'm all in favor of a "well-rounded" education, but Waldorf goes too far for my tastes. Academics aren't the only thing that matters but they are very important to me. And they just don't seem to be given high enough priority in Waldorf education IMHO.

 

Charlotte Mason was in favor of keeping lessons short and teaching kids about nature, art, handicrafts, etc. but she still placed a great deal of emphasis on academics.

 

Waldorf seems more similar to "unschooling" than to CM.

[fairytalemama]

Can someone explain to me Lesson Blocks and how those are used in the older years?

 

Check out this blog entry that was posted today on A Little Garden Flower. It's about laying out a 7th grade history block:

 

http://waldorfjourney.typepad.com/a_journey_through_waldorf/2010/05/the-aztecs-and-cortes-grade-7.html

 

I don't have any experience with older ones, but it seems kind of similar to a unit study approach with the topics based on what Steiner believed would be fitting for the age.

 

I respectfully disagree with Crimson Wife about Waldorf being like unschooling. I view unschooling as more child directed, i.e. the child tells you what they are interested in and then you study it. Waldorf is not like that at all. The path is completely laid out for what should be taught when at what Steiner considered to be a developmentally appropriate time.

 

And in full disclosure, I do not homeschool strictly Waldorf. I did a lot of research on it because one of my daughter's close friends attends our local Waldorf private school, and her parents were encouraging us to consider sending our children there. I ended up being more drawn to CM in the end not because I didn't like what Waldorf taught, but because anthroposophy didn't fit our family philosophically. The "why" behind everything in Waldorf is based on that. I've kept the things I liked from Waldorf (e.g. the nature table, the main lesson books, the block beeswax crayons) and pretty much have passed on using the overall approach. I guess you could say we kept the garnish, but we didn't eat the entree. I guess I don't really even consider us "Waldorf inspired" anymore, but more taking a gentle, creative path to schooling. I still am a member of a Waldorf Yahoo Group though because there are some awesome interesting people who use Steiner's methods and I've learned a lot from them.

[Crimson Wife]

I respectfully disagree with Crimson Wife about Waldorf being like unschooling. I view unschooling as more child directed, i.e. the child tells you what they are interested in and then you study it. Waldorf is not like that at all. The path is completely laid out for what should be taught when at what Steiner considered to be a developmentally appropriate time.

 

The child directed vs. parent directed wasn't what I was getting at. I meant about the de-emphasis of the 3 R's in favor of "life skills" type (what my DH would term "artsy-fartsy") stuff. The author of the book I read on Waldorf education had a lot to say about the importance of the latter but not that much to say about the former. It struck me as being pretty hippie-ish, not unlike many of the "unschoolers" I know.

[woolybear]

 

Waldorf seems more similar to "unschooling" than to CM.

 

I would say true Waldorf is decidedly not close to unschooling. It is very rigid as to what is to be taught when and how. That does not mesh with my views of what is unschooling. I am sure there is more to this Waldorf/ CM/ unschooling thoughts in my head as I have dabbled in all three, but my brain is not really working right now.:001_smile:

[Penelope]

Other than the spiritual aspect, I'm a little confused as to the differences between the two. They seem very similar. Or maybe I just need more coffee. :001_huh:

 

 

I don't think you can separate out the spiritual aspects. The spiritual aspects are the foundation of how the child is viewed, what is taught when, and how.

 

Superficially, they both have the kids out in nature mostly playing in the preschool years. Beyond that, I don't think they are very similar.

[shukriyya]

The superficial aspects of Waldorf are what draw a lot of people to this approach, things such as making artistic expression central to the early years and using only natural materials to do so, natural playthings, nature table, celebration of various festivals, low to no media, surrounding the child with beauty, soft colors.

 

There is a very detailed view of the developing soul of the child and the educational philosophy arises out of this paradigm. I don't know enough about CM to compare the two fully. I do know that there are points where the two philosophies intersect in the early years such as the importance of time outdoors, de-emphasis on academics, attention to aesthetic detail, emphasis on daily rhythm to name a few.

[FlutterbyMommy]

I ended up being more drawn to CM in the end not because I didn't like what Waldorf taught, but because anthroposophy didn't fit our family philosophically. The "why" behind everything in Waldorf is based on that. I've kept the things I liked from Waldorf (e.g. the nature table, the main lesson books, the block beeswax crayons) and pretty much have passed on using the overall approach. I guess you could say we kept the garnish, but we didn't eat the entree.

 

This was a problem for us. I love much of the elements employed in the method, but their basis in anthroposophy become too big a hurdle to clear for us. he Waldorf Education is at the heart of the application of this belief.

[FlutterbyMommy]

I am curious if there are parallels to be drawn between CM/Waldorf/ and Montessori?

 

I see paralells between some of Cm and Montessori and some between Montessori and Waldorf. But I am thinking they are more the accoessories rather than the actual academic approaches. Any thoughts?

[Green Vixen]

I am curious if there are parallels to be drawn between CM/Waldorf/ and Montessori?

 

I see paralells between some of Cm and Montessori and some between Montessori and Waldorf. But I am thinking they are more the accoessories rather than the actual academic approaches. Any thoughts?

 

:bigear:

 

Marisa

[Amber in AUS]

I have no indepth knowledge of Montessori, CM or Steiner but i did draw a couple of parallels when reading Education Is from SCM a couple of weeks ago. I noted -

 

CM & Monti

- Demonstrate and monitor competence of a task or habit. Don't withdraw until the child has the skill or habit down. I believe Monti has a 'help me to do it myself' type thought.

 

CM & Steiner

- CM is looking to provide a well rounded education in all aspects from cooking and sewing to academics. I believe Steiner has a 'head, hands, heart' philosophy.

 

Like i said no expert just the thoughts that occurred to me at the time.

[Melissa B]

Mason/Montessori/Steiner would have been European contemporaries, in a sense, so there are likely to be similarities of thought. Probably more so with Steiner and Montessori who were Austrian and Italian and felt first hand the devastation of two world wars. They saw the physical/emotional/communal destruction all around them and both were focused on children not benefitting from the current system of education. So both developed plans that provided a 'safe haven' for children, empowered them and helped them develop abilities beyond just mental knowledge. Both also dabbled in theosophy, but Montessori moved from that into developing a program that encouraged peace among all mankind, community service, etc. while Steiner moved into anthroposophy.

 

At its root, Waldorf is going to be very different from other programs. While all other programs focus on developing knowledge through the mind - in one way or another. Waldorf focuses on developing the soul - and developing knowledge through the soul.

 

Much emphasis is put on the imagination because it there that the soul and mind most easily meet. Ages 0-7 are for developing the physical body and the imagination. Very little time is spent on developing the mind (as Steiner believed the child's mind to not yet be properly developed for 'book work.') Much time is spent in nature because Steiner felt that there was a disconnect between people and nature and people were in the process of trying to subdue nature rather than exist in it.

 

Ages 7-14 are taught from a whole to parts method. You first reach the soul through the whole and then the soul meets the mind through the parts. Art and storytelling are again the easiest way to reach the soul.

 

Ages 14+ is when the child is ready to take a parts to whole look at the world. This is the time when the mind really becomes the more dominant part of the educational process. Steiner believed that after 14 years of developing the soul, the student would be able to first take in information through the mind (as most people do) and yet still be able to reach the soul with that information by combining that information into a whole that the soul would understand.

 

Sorry, I know that this info is really "out there," generalized and not doing justice to poor Steiner, but there it is. The curriculum is very focused on archetypes/ideals/personality types/soul development. It is actually very structured in what should be taught, when it should be taught and how it should be taught. It is not unschooling in any way as it is absolutely dependent on the teacher, but it is not academic either. That just isn't the focus.

 

Live Education curriculum is very expensive, but the best I have found at sticking to waldorf philosophy but still focusing on the academic expectations of the current generation.

 

I have found a combination of classical and waldorf philosophies to make a well rounded education. However, it is very time consuming and very teacher intensive. And it has a spiritual basis that will be a poor fit for many religious homeschoolers.

 

Sorry this was so long! HTH!

[abrightmom]

I've kept the things I liked from Waldorf (e.g. the nature table, the main lesson books, the block beeswax crayons) and pretty much have passed on using the overall approach. I guess you could say we kept the garnish, but we didn't eat the entree. I guess I don't really even consider us "Waldorf inspired" anymore, but more taking a gentle, creative path to schooling. I still am a member of a Waldorf Yahoo Group though because there are some awesome interesting people who use Steiner's methods and I've learned a lot from them.

:001_smile: I realize this thread is discussing philosophies more than practicalities BUT I am so interested in hearing MORE (lots more) about nature tables, main lesson books and block beeswax crayons. Please share :D.

[fairytalemama]

:001_smile: I realize this thread is discussing philosophies more than practicalities BUT I am so interested in hearing MORE (lots more) about nature tables, main lesson books and block beeswax crayons. Please share :D.

 

As far as the nature table goes, the idea is to incorporate a rhythm along with the seasons in the home. It varies from home to home as to how in depth you go with it and what kind of table you use. Some folks make dolls to represent Mother Nature and fairies, etc. to represent the different seasons. We tried using a smaller dedicated separate table, but our cats (darn cats :lol:) kept jumping into the display so now we keep our display on top of the buffet in the kitchen. We've used the book Earthways and the book The Nature Corner to get ideas for ours. Right now our buffet is covered with a light green cloth and we have a vase full of pussywillows on it. Hanging from a pussywillow is a little white fairy we made from teased wool roving (the instructions are in The Nature Corner book). We made her last year for our summer table, but my daughter liked her so much she's out early. We also made a beehive for summer last year out of braided rags that's already out. I guess it's kind defeating the purpose of following the seasons, but if she wants it out that bad (and we are getting close to summer, right?) that's fine. She also likes to collect flowers from outside and sticks, rocks, etc. to display on the table. We try to change it as close to the first day of a season as possible. I have different cloths to cover the table for each season (summer is a bright rainbow tie dyed batik, fall is a autumn leaf print, winter is light blue with snowflakes on it). We try to make something new for it every once in a while. Last fall we made a dragon out of walnut husks she collected for Michaelmas. It's been fun.

 

In Waldorf schools, they make their own textbooks (or main lesson books) by illustrating blank books and writing about the topic they are covering in their main lesson block. My daughter is still young so she calls hers "my fairy tale book". Whenever we read a story, she draws a picture of what we read and then we paste it in a blank book we got at Barnes & Noble. She even painted a watercolor to paste on the cover. I like it because it will be a nice record of what she did at this age. I try to encourage her to only do her best work for the book. She produces A LOT of art work so we try to pick and choose for the book.

 

Beeswax crayons----I love 'em! The Waldorf reason for them is because they encourage using natural materials for art when available. I have to say I like the blocks better than the sticks though. They're pretty expensive, but they blend WAY better than Crayola. The blocks are perfect for shading an area quickly. In fact, my daughter calls them "the shaders". She uses them to fill in the sky a lot. I got the blocks for her when she was 2 and they are super durable. Not one break and she's still using them daily. Those block have lasted forever. I can't say the same for the Stockmar beeswax sticks which broke all over the place. They stock them a lot of different places, but here's a link to a store that has them reasonably priced---

http://www.threesisterstoys.com/c-7-arts-crafts.aspx

 

Other books you may want to check out for those who are interested in "Waldorf Lite" (i.e. the fun stuff without the philosophical reasons---in the spirit of full disclosure)---

 

Seven Times the Sun

A Child's Seasonal Treasury - out of print and expensive but you can occasionally find it on eBay cheap

Toymaking with Children

 

I went through a period where I was all obsessed with buying or making a set of Waldorf playstands (really I was kind of crackpot about it. They sell them here. We ended up buying a play kitchen from them instead), and then I realized half of this stuff you can just create with stuff you already have. It's much easier to make a house or a tent out of a couple of kitchen chairs than to drop $300 and have these playstands around taking up space.

 

Anyway---enjoy the fun stuff :001_smile:

[abrightmom]

Fairytale Mama! :grouphug: Thanks for sharing. This is VERY inspiring. I'm in LOVE with the idea of a seasonal nature table. My kiddos would FREAK OUT if we had something like that. I'm going to pursue that. Thanks for the links and the specifics.

[abrightmom]

We've used the book Earthways and the book The Nature Corner to get ideas for ours.

Other books you may want to check out for those who are interested in "Waldorf Lite" (i.e. the fun stuff without the philosophical reasons---in the spirit of full disclosure)---

 

Seven Times the Sun

A Child's Seasonal Treasury - out of print and expensive but you can occasionally find it on eBay cheap

Toymaking with Children

 

All of those resources are available at our library and I was able to reserve all of them just now!!!! :D Thanks again for the suggestions.

[OnTheBrink]

 

But, so does Charlotte Mason. Especially in the early years they are very similar. Charlotte doesn't delve into the spiritual unfolding in the same way that Waldorf does, but she was right on in thinking that no formal lessons should be taught before age 6, that observation and nature study and play and lots of time out of doors were essential for little people. And handicrafts! I see alot of Charlotte Mason sites talk about handicrafts, but as far as I've seen don't give a lot of practial "do this" and then the support to do so. Handicrafts become part of the curriculum in Waldorf and are very meaningful, tangible and practicle. Making needle-felted gnomes for math/seasonal tables for example! She also speaks a lot of habit, which in my mind are one in the same as rhythm's in Waldorf.

 

 

 

From my understanding of CM, handicrafts are not a specified part of the curriculum, like math or Latin, therefore there is no real detailed instruction on them. Basically, CM encourages children to create things that are useful, practical and beautiful. Such as needlework or watercolor painting, as opposed to doing "crafty" things such as making caterpillars out of egg cartons or any number of "crafts" made from construction paper. Her point, I believe, was to teach the child skills that are useful in life and can serve a purpose, as well as offer a creative outlet for the child. So, whatever handicraft the child does, it can be decided upon based on his/her interests and abilities, instead of something like, "In first grade we make this, in second grade we make that..."

[stripe]

CM criticized Montesorri for things such as isolating somewhat random (in her opinion) skills and arranging set environments for the children. CM was more interested in authentic environments. You can read a paraphrase of a CM letter about Montessori here.

[Closeacademy]

I have found over time that Waldorf targets seem to be right on target.

 

Neither of my children have been ready to read until sometime in the 8th year after the 7 year change. It was also around this time that they were ready for seatwork. In the younger years, fairy tales, nature stories, crafts and artistic expression were what they needed.

 

Around 2nd grade, they both really seemed to benefit from fables and hero stories (Saints, superheros, whatever).

 

Third grade (age 9) is a great year for long division, Old testament and such because they are seeking reassurance that some one is in charge and that life is not just chaos. That there is order.

 

Fourth grades (age 10) seem to want adventure and that is why the study of the norse peoples fit in so well with that age.

 

As my children grow, I wish that I would have followed this method closer when they were younger because we could have avoided some of the problems that we have with behavior and learning. It all seems like mumbo-jumbo but truthfully at certain ages the children need certain types of reassurance.

 

By the way, Waldorf is a "better late than early" method of education. The later grades are very rigorous and the textbooks the children make are very detailed.

 

Just my 2 cents.:001_smile:

[HollyBee]

OP here. I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread. All of it has been very helpful.

 

Carry on!

[MelanieM]

Waldorf seems more similar to "unschooling" than to CM.

 

As others have said, Waldorf is very structured, and very much teacher/parent led. Unschooling is the complete opposite of Waldorf, as it is about creating a child-led education. So while it might look similar in early years -- Waldorf encourages play, and most children who choose their own activities will choose play -- the similarities are only skin deep. And I say this as an unschooler with a child that can't get enough of academics (or media), and therefore kept us from being able to truly implement a Waldorf approach to education in our home. :)

[DianeW88]

I've been homeschooling for 16 years, and over time, I've taken what I liked from Waldorf, Charlotte Mason and Classical Ed and come up with my own ecclectic combination of those three philosophies. It probably doesn't sound pretty, but it works for us. And, seriously, that's what is most important with any curriculum. Make it work for you. And, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. How's that for a homeschooling philosophy??? :lol:

 

Diane W.

married 22 years

homeschooling 3 kiddos for 16 years

[Amber in AUS]

:iagree: Great comment

[DaffodilDreams]

 

And handicrafts! I see alot of Charlotte Mason sites talk about handicrafts, but as far as I've seen don't give a lot of practial "do this" and then the support to do so. Handicrafts become part of the curriculum in Waldorf and are very meaningful, tangible and practicle. Making needle-felted gnomes for math/seasonal tables for example! She also speaks a lot of habit, which in my mind are one in the same as rhythm's in Waldorf.

 

QUOTE]

 

Yes, the handicrafts, watercolor, and form drawing are why combining AO and Earthschooling appealed to me, and it has worked out well. AO is a great CM site and curriculum, but one of the biggest areas of concern for a lot of people is what to do about handicrafts. I just solved that for myself by choosing a waldorf type curriculum to go along with everything else we're doing.