MCT again. (sorry) How do you feel about the

[Jayne J]

fact that the only writing instruction in the upper levels (9-12) is aimed solely at academic papers? I really like the looks of the program (and have enjoyed reading all the past posts about it) but I wonder if the writing focus is a little too narrow at the upper levels. After all dc may not go to college (hyperventillation). What about persuasive writing, creative writing, editiorial writing, the magazine article etc? Am I reading too much into this, or do you feel the same?

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I think that using AAW will give students a strong enough grasp on how to write that persuasive and editorial writing will be easy. Can you write persuasively without knowing how to develop a proper thesis or support that thesis coherently?

 

I believe everyone should learn how to write an academic paper. That skill will help in business, marketing, retail, etc. Just think, if you work in sales and your boss wants you to draft a report about what you see on the floor then having the ability to write a paper based on a central thesis and supported by logical arguments will serve much better than being able to write a story about a sales clerk who falls in love with a time traveler.

 

 

Your children are very young. You hae lots of time to work on creative writing before they get to high school.v

[MamaReads]

I have to say that I'm not convinced that MCT will be my child's standalone writing program because of the limited scope. Right now I forsee continuing with writing with ease as the series grows (hopefully with my dcs). I don't think we'll do every WWE exercise along with MCT but I figure together they should cover all the bases. I am hoping to mix other sorts of writing in with the content areas of literature study, history, and science as well. All that said my oldest is still 1-2 years away from beginning MCT so...who really knows what we will end up doing!

[Country Mouse]

I think this is a really good question and I'm interested to hear what others have to say. :bigear:

[Rosie_0801]

fact that the only writing instruction in the upper levels (9-12) is aimed solely at academic papers? . What about persuasive writing, creative writing, editiorial writing, the magazine article etc? Am I reading too much into this, or do you feel the same?

 

Perhaps I'm way off base, but isn't an academic paper the "grown up" version of persuasive and editorial essays? I would think anyone who can write an academic essay would be able to write a magazine article. Creative writing I see more as an elective. You should have a go, but if it's not your thing, do something else.

 

Rosie

[Shawna in Texas]

Perhaps I'm way off base, but isn't an academic paper the "grown up" version of persuasive and editorial essays? I would think anyone who can write an academic essay would be able to write a magazine article. Creative writing I see more as an elective. You should have a go, but if it's not your thing, do something else.

 

Rosie

 

This is my impression. Granted we've only done Town and I haven't received Essay, yet. I imagine that different types of essays are covered in that. In Town, he has you coming at writing from all different sorts of perspectives. One week dd had to do a Melville style paragraph. I think once you have experience in academic writing, the rest should be easy. I don't count creative writing in that, BTW.

[Shelly in the Country]

Perhaps I'm way off base, but isn't an academic paper the "grown up" version of persuasive and editorial essays? I would think anyone who can write an academic essay would be able to write a magazine article. Creative writing I see more as an elective. You should have a go, but if it's not your thing, do something else.

 

 

 

:iagree: I just had this conversation with my eldest this afternoon. I told her that creative writing is a valuable pursuit, but it is not something which I wish to focus on in our homeschool because of its limited usefulness. If someone is gifted at creative writing, they could grow up to be a published author, but that is sort of the equivalent of aspiring to be a rock star :001_smile:. If a person has talent, that is fantastic and it should be nurtured, but it cannot be forced, nor should it be focused on too much because the odds of being able to make a living at it one day are not good. Academic writing on the other hand has much broader application and would certainly be necessary for the college-bound. I am moving into MCT writing after we finish up WWE because they focus on academic writing.

[Capt_Uhura]

I hope I'm not misquoting MCT but I recall from one of his you tube lectures that the reason he focuses on academic writing is b/c they are not teaching it in schools. MCT LA materials were written for the public school/private school market. The kids were getting journal writing, creative writing in other classes but no academic writing. I believe he ended with if your DC likes creative writing, by all means pursue it, but that's not his focus. I would agree that if you can write an academic paper, you'd be able to write an editorial, persuasive essay, etc.

 

Capt_Uhura

[Jayne J]

Perhaps my understanding of what constitutes academic paper is too limited. I'm thinking of my college years--5-8 pages typed with MLA format bibliography, etc. (written as quickly as you could on Sunday night.:D)

 

I agree that creative writing is not for everyone, nor should it be pushed needlessly on people just to say that they have done it. No arguement there. However to skip it simply because it may not help may a living is not really the way I choose what to teach. And for some reason, four years of academic paper writing seems like overkill. I have also been looking over the CW program, and see a greater variety of writing styles/areas covered. Writing is communication at core, and the academic paper is only one, highly formalized way to communicate.

 

I have a lot of time to figure it out of course, and will likely end up with some combination. I just thought that MCT, (from what I've seen and heard) with it's emphasis on poetics and grammar-through-story, with its appreciation of the nuances and fine points of words would have a broader scope during the older years. I mean, teach kids to love words and appreciate a fine turn of phrase and then have them write academic papers for four years? Yeesh. :tongue_smilie::001_smile:

Edited May 12, 2010 by urpedonmommy

[Caitilin]

But see, for me, and others like me, writing "creative" stuff would not allow me to do anything but wallow in misery. ;) I LOVE to read poetry, and appreciate beautiful expression--and I am convinced that that IS what academic writing is about: showing that you appreciate beautiful expression, and understand why it matters, and expressing yourself beautifully as you analyze the text you're writing about. I believe that if someone is gifted in creative writing, that is if someone is a WRITER, that someone is going to write, given half a chance.

I have a lot of time to figure it out of course, and will likely end up with some combination. I just thought that MCT, (from what I've seen and heard) with it's emphasis on poetics and grammar-through-story, with its appreciation of the nuances and fine points of words would have a broader scope during the older years. I mean, teach kids to love words and appreciate a fine turn of phrase and then have them write academic papers for four years?

And it's not the case that an academic paper is boring, either; properly understood, it's the avenue that allows the student to demonstrate his creative understanding of the work of literature he's evaluating. And that's one of the most satisfying things anyone can do. :)

 

Also, I agree with Rosie that the academic paper is the grown-up version of other kinds of writing, and with Shelly (at al.) that the academic paper is the most useful kind of writing to know how to do and do well. This focus on strong academic writing was what finally sold me on MCT as a program, combined with the fact that it's not designed to be formulaic, but rather to teach the students to find their own voices, to choose the right words to make their arguments, and to learn to choose their own good topics to discuss. That's what I want both for my own children, and for those students I teach in our co-ops.

[Shawna in Texas]

Perhaps my understanding of what constitutes academic paper is too limited. I'm thinking of my college years--5-8 pages typed with MLA format bibliography, etc. (written as quickly as you could on Sunday night.:D)

 

I agree that creative writing is not for everyone, nor should it be pushed needlessly on people just to say that they have done it. No arguement there. However to skip it simply because it may not help may a living is not really the way I choose what to teach. And for some reason, four years of academic paper writing seems like overkill. I have also been looking over the CW program, and see a greater variety of writing styles/areas covered. Writing is communication at core, and the academic paper is only one, highly formalized way to communicate.

 

I have a lot of time to figure it out of course, and will likely end up with some combination. I just thought that MCT, (from what I've seen and heard) with it's emphasis on poetics and grammar-through-story, with its appreciation of the nuances and fine points of words would have a broader scope during the older years. I mean, teach kids to love words and appreciate a fine turn of phrase and then have them write academic papers for four years? Yeesh. :tongue_smilie::001_smile:

 

I kinda get what you're saying about having to teach and learn 4 years of academic writing, but I don't think that's what the books are meant for. I think there's an assumption going in to the 4th level that you are currently a fairly competent writer. I think it's completely unnecessary to have a creative writing included in any writing curricula once you get to a certain point, but that doesn't mean I think it's unimportant if you want to do it. Academic writing teaches you to be a better writer--it's going to breathe life into everything you write, creatively or not. I don't think he's skipping creative writing (there's plenty in the elementary levels), he's just assuming that if you want to write creatively, you don't necessarily need a curriculum for it. Just imagination and a capacity for grammar and mechanics. You'll get plenty of prompts from other subjects.

 

Once you get to the 4th level, you have various assignments from other subjects that AAW helps you analyze and perfect. He's giving parents a guide to appropriately assess their children's writing. I don't think it's a book with weekly assignments, like CW.

[Rosie_0801]

The only boring thing about writing academic essays in my opinion is when you are obliged to follow a really boring topic, with no rabbit trails allowed. There was nothing boring about my essay on fashionable diseases or the one about how the prostitutes of Nairobi were the main contributers to the economic founding of that city. Not that I'm suggesting that as an appropriate topic for high school :D

 

Rosie

[Shawna in Texas]

The only boring thing about writing academic essays in my opinion is when you are obliged to follow a really boring topic, with no rabbit trails allowed. There was nothing boring about my essay on fashionable diseases or the one about how the prostitutes of Nairobi were the main contributers to the economic founding of that city. Not that I'm suggesting that as an appropriate topic for high school :D

 

Rosie

 

:D

 

Maybe you should call RFWP.com and see if you can publish Rosie's Book of Academic Essay Prompts.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

:D

 

Maybe you should call RFWP.com and see if you can publish Rosie's Book of Academic Essay Prompts.

:lol::lol:

[radiobrain]

I wish I had more coffee to try and tackle this subject. Please bear with me, this will be less than eloquent and make even less sense....:D

 

OK, so I saw MCT's writing lecture at the Cincinnati Convention, and I was stunned by its simplicity and depth. His whole basic point is that kids have been taught the wrong way for several years, by focusing on creative writing and journaling, and when they get to college... they have to learn on the fly, and their grades, and your $$ suffer. They also haven't been properly corrected in the writing they have done. Of course, there are always exceptions, but this is his general opinion.

 

So, he starts teaching academic papers in the 4th level, so they kids have several years to grow in their ability to produce them. He schedules several per year, not one. Your kid gets to pick the topic, preferably something they are interested in... and it does not need to be long. The whole first year is for relatively short papers. An interesting aspect to his method, is that he doesn't want the kid to waste time doing a rough draft (you aren't allowed to turn in a rough draft in college, are you? Or to a publisher?) but do one paper thoughtfully and have it evaluated and graded well, then move on to the next paper. He wants the kids to work out the bugs while doing another paper on something else. I think this is an interesting idea, and I like it.

 

The other main point is that academic writing is cross-curricular. It is a skill that is used in English, History, Science.... just about everything. Therefore, it is quite a valuable skill and very important to understand and get right. Creative writing is something that should be considered an elective, like Pottery... a choice within a larger sphere of study. Many kids do not have creative minds, or at least creative minds with the desire to put it on paper. MCT particularly dislikes "the journal". In general, there is only so much time a teacher and child have to cram as much info and learn as many skills... why waste it on such a bit of frippery? I have to agree with that.

 

Anyway.... I don't know if I have shed any light on this, but if you are going to any of those 4 conventions that the Cincinnati people are putting on next year, go see MCTs talk about academic writing (and the others too! They are all awesome) and you will understand what I can't explain very well.

[radiobrain]

The only boring thing about writing academic essays in my opinion is when you are obliged to follow a really boring topic, with no rabbit trails allowed. There was nothing boring about my essay on fashionable diseases or the one about how the prostitutes of Nairobi were the main contributers to the economic founding of that city. Not that I'm suggesting that as an appropriate topic for high school :D

 

Rosie

 

MCT encourages picking a subject interesting to the kid. Like Giant squid or anything else under the sun, as long as it is relevant to the child. It is about learning the skill, not the subject.

 

Later on, once they know how to write a halfway decent essay, you can pick as many boring subjects as you want! ;)

[Granny_Weatherwax]

 

Later on, once they know how to write a halfway decent essay, you can pick as many boring subjects as you want! ;)

 

Like the personal hygiene of soldiers during the War of 1812??????

[MariannNOVA]

Like the personal hygiene of soldiers during the War of 1812??????

 

Exactly!:D

[Irishmommy]

I'm with Rosie on this one too. I spent too much of my 8 years of teaching 9th graders trying to get them to move beyond creative writing, especially my students in pre ap classes. I'm hoping that all my kids go to college and am preparing them as such. Never in my college career (as a theatre/English major) was I asked to write a "creative" paper with the exception of my Writing for the Theatre class. All of my other classes required "formal" essays even though I could be creative in my expression of those essays, they were not "creative" assignments. And frankly, when do MOST jobs require creative writing (except for your resume/job app of course, ha ha)? I just don't see it as necessary as a skill as academic writing. Blogging is the most creative writing that I do these days...

[nmoira]

His whole basic point is that kids have been taught the wrong way for several years, by focusing on creative writing and journaling, and when they get to college... they have to learn on the fly, and their grades, and your $$ suffer. They also haven't been properly corrected in the writing they have done.

And from Classics in the Classroom:

 

Students should not be blamed for writing bad research papers. Of course they will write incompetent, flawed papers. That is what they are supposed to do. The are learners. They need a good opportunity to get beginners papers out of their systems and to learn in a patient and caring atmosphere how to write and research correctly. This does not mean that we should not tell students the truth about what is wrong; we certainly must.

He goes on to talk about the responsibilities of the teacher in considerable detail. The onus is on us.

[Kuovonne]

An interesting aspect to [MCT's] method, is that he doesn't want the kid to waste time doing a rough draft (you aren't allowed to turn in a rough draft in college, are you? Or to a publisher?) but do one paper thoughtfully and have it evaluated and graded well, then move on to the next paper. He wants the kids to work out the bugs while doing another paper on something else. I think this is an interesting idea, and I like it.

 

OMG! Thank you! I have been totally struggling with the idea of teaching my daughter how to write a rough draft. How simple, just ditch the rough draft.

 

Just another reason for me to continue with MCT.

 

MCT particularly dislikes "the journal". In general, there is only so much time a teacher and child have to cram as much info and learn as many skills... why waste it on such a bit of frippery?

 

What about a journal that doesn't take any of the teacher's time? I have my daughter do a daily journal because she doesn't do any other writing (except spelling). I use the journal writing to evaluate what she needs work on and what she has mastered.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Kuovonne

[Wendy in ME]

This is the reason I have chosen MCT writing. We will use what we learn with MCT and apply it to our TOG writing and even use Writing Aids for additional help and ideas.

[Jayne J]

Thank you everyone for all of your replies. I have a lot of food for thought, and am feeling better about the MCT route than I had previously. It will likely be our LA program in the upcoming years, so long as it works for us--there is so much about it to like.

 

One small point I'd like to make to those who dislike creative writing: I agree that it has been overused, and frequently abused, as a way to fill a "credit" in writing without really requiring much of the student. I also sympathize with those who feel it would be torturous on an individual level. However, there is benefit in creative writing. Most would agree that "hands-on" experience is the most beneficial kind of learning. Rebuilding a carburetor with your own hands nearly always trumps looking at a diagram of how a carburetor is assembled, as does learning to knit from another person rather than looking at books. Writing dialogue yourself will really teach you how dialogue is written, and give you a deeper appreciation of dialogue you read. Read "Hills like White Elephants" and then try it yourself. You'll see how difficult it is to write what Hemingway made look deceptively simple. So, while creativity itself really can't be forced, creative writing accomplishes other ends, and is not entirely useless.

 

 

 

*In the interest of full disclosure, I must let you know that I majored in English literature, and that I am fully aware that Hemingway made everything, not just dialogue, look deceptively simple.:D

[Rosie_0801]

What about a journal that doesn't take any of the teacher's time? I have my daughter do a daily journal because she doesn't do any other writing (except spelling). I use the journal writing to evaluate what she needs work on and what she has mastered.

 

If it works for you, it works for you.

 

However, there is benefit in creative writing. . Writing dialogue yourself will really teach you how dialogue is written, and give you a deeper appreciation of dialogue you read. So, while creativity itself really can't be forced, creative writing accomplishes other ends, and is not entirely useless.

 

 

No one is going to say one should NEVER do creative writing with kids under any circumstances. People have said it ought to be an elective, something to try, but not to dwell on unless the kiddie is feeling inspired. I think creative writing is very frequently an exercise in trying to get blood out of stones; and that doesn't do anyone any good.

 

Rosie

Edited May 12, 2010 by Rosie_0801

[Shawna in Texas]

Thank you everyone for all of your replies. I have a lot of food for thought, and am feeling better about the MCT route than I had previously. It will likely be our LA program in the upcoming years, so long as it works for us--there is so much about it to like.

 

One small point I'd like to make to those who dislike creative writing: I agree that it has been overused, and frequently abused, as a way to fill a "credit" in writing without really requiring much of the student. I also sympathize with those who feel it would be torturous on an individual level. However, there is benefit in creative writing. Most would agree that "hands-on" experience is the most beneficial kind of learning. Rebuilding a carburetor with your own hands nearly always trumps looking at a diagram of how a carburetor is assembled, as does learning to knit from another person rather than looking at books. Writing dialogue yourself will really teach you how dialogue is written, and give you a deeper appreciation of dialogue you read. Read "Hills like White Elephants" and then try it yourself. You'll see how difficult it is to write what Hemingway made look deceptively simple. So, while creativity itself really can't be forced, creative writing accomplishes other ends, and is not entirely useless.

 

 

 

*In the interest of full disclosure, I must let you know that I majored in English literature, and that I am fully aware that Hemingway made everything, not just dialogue, look deceptively simple.:D

 

It sounds like you need to get your hands on the Town level. I think you'd really like some of the more "I don't know where he's going with this, but he's seems to know what he's talking about assignments". He's pretty creative in his approach.

 

As for the 4th level and up, just get an advanced copy of Rosie's book to do along with it. She may give us WTMer's a discount.

[radiobrain]

 

What about a journal that doesn't take any of the teacher's time? I have my daughter do a daily journal because she doesn't do any other writing (except spelling). I use the journal writing to evaluate what she needs work on and what she has mastered.

 

I was talking more about teaching journaling, not keeping a journal. I think a journal should be a personal thing, not an assignment. The point I was attempting to make was just that there is some important stuff that kids really need to learn that are tossed out for things like this. All the time, in all sorts of different subjects. It just seems like a cop out for some classroom teachers, KWIM? It is easier to have kids do a journal that teach how to do a real essay! It is hard enough for me to get my 2 kids to write at all, much less a paper, I can't imagine how hard it must be with a whole room full of them. Luckily, we all have just our own kids so we can be far more flexible on what we cover, when, and how much. YAY! ;)

 

I couldn't make my kids write things like that, but I think that whatever you can do to get your kids to write is good.

 

I also think creative writing is important, don't get me wrong. I am starting a boys' writing club for jimminy's sake! :D

[radiobrain]

Like the personal hygiene of soldiers during the War of 1812??????

 

 

Wait! My boys might find that amazingly interesting! :tongue_smilie::lol:

[Kuovonne]

I was talking more about teaching journaling, not keeping a journal.

 

Teaching journaling??? Wow, the thought never occured to me. I just tell Sparkle to write in her journal. I once entertained the idea of giving her writing prompts, but I was too lazy and she always eventually comes up with something on her own.

 

It is hard enough for me to get my 2 kids to write at all, much less a paper, I can't imagine how hard it must be with a whole room full of them. Luckily, we all have just our own kids so we can be far more flexible on what we cover, when, and how much. YAY! ;)

 

:iagree:

[cottagechick]

SWB mentions in one of the Mp3's about writing that in her experience, creative writing is a gift you either have or you don't. If your kiddo enjoys writing stories, journals, etc, let 'em have at it. If they don't, don't make them. It was a relief to hear that, as I've struggled trying to get some of my kids to write. She tells the hilarious story of her brother who is now a software engineer flunked his college freshman English course because he didn't do the daily journaling required. Of course her mother Jesse was appalled, but understood that his brain just couldn't see the point and had no creative bent in that direction.

 

I suppose it's like playing an instrument or learning to paint....anyone can learn the discipline and skills, how to use the tools as such. But not everyone can (or want to) write original music scores or paint a lovely landscape if they don't have the 'spark' or desire.

 

Giving our kids the tools of writing and teaching the discipline of getting words on paper are needful. We all need those skills. But demanding original, creative content is a skill only for those who have that desire and natural ability. The rest of us just need to construct a logical paragraph :D

[radiobrain]

Teaching journaling??? Wow, the thought never occured to me. I just tell Sparkle to write in her journal. I once entertained the idea of giving her writing prompts, but I was too lazy and she always eventually comes up with something on her own.

 

 

 

My kids would NEVER come up with anything on their own. You are lucky. :D Again, I think boys are just harder to get writing (in general) than girls.

 

I was thinking of how journaling has become such a big part of elementary curriculum in the Brick and Mortar schools, that it must be "taught". If my kids won't do it (and believe me they have plenty to say, just no desire to write anything down) there must be a whole lot more who don't want to do it either, therfore... must be taught. Blah blah blah

 

You know, I listened to an old SWB cd I got from last year's convention about writing, and bought 2 from the site that everyone was raving about... and although I can get on board with a lot of it, I just don't buy all of it. Same with Peduwa. Both have some really good points, good advice, but as I am a diehard MCT groupie... and agree with almost 100% of his schtick.... there are just things that I disagree with in both their ideas/plans etc. But as writing is my hardest subject to teach, the hardest to wrap my mind around, and the one my boys dread the most... I will investigate all sorts of angles and approaches.

 

My boys would gleefully write and illustrate a comic book or strip... I think I should consider that a writing exercise, and a creative one at that. ;) They WILL need to write a good essay though, and I look forward to using the AAW. Right now, if my 11 yo were to pick a subject it would be "Why Peirce Brosnan is the best James Bond".

[Capt_Uhura]

Radiobrain - What do you disagree with in SWB's and Peduwa's philosophies? The only time I got my boys to journal was when I would write in their journal. For ex: "My favorite thing to do is to go hiking. I love being in nature blah blah blah It was so exciting to find the red-spotted salamander when you and I were hiking. What's your favorite thing to do?" Then they would write a response. Other than that, the journal just sat there.

 

I would certainly count comic strips as a creative writing!! WHy not? It is! And I've love to read his thoughts on why Brosnan is the best Bond ever? But I thought it was Connery! :lol:

 

Capt_Uhura (another MCT-groupie)

[materursa]

You know, I listened to an old SWB cd I got from last year's convention about writing, and bought 2 from the site that everyone was raving about... and although I can get on board with a lot of it, I just don't buy all of it. Same with Peduwa. Both have some really good points, good advice, but as I am a diehard MCT groupie... and agree with almost 100% of his schtick.... there are just things that I disagree with in both their ideas/plans etc.

 

I'm having a really hard time trying to determine the course of my children's writing and overall LA education. I am trying to decide between the 3 methods you've mentioned, SWB, IEW, and MCT. Radiobrain (and anyone else who's willing,) could you comment on what parts of SWB and IEW you don't buy into? I would really appreciate it!

 

Amanda

[radiobrain]

Radiobrain - What do you disagree with in SWB's and Peduwa's philosophies?

 

I would certainly count comic strips as a creative writing!! WHy not? It is! And I've love to read his thoughts on why Brosnan is the best Bond ever? But I thought it was Connery! :lol:

 

Capt_Uhura (another MCT-groupie)

 

I think Connery is the best Bond for adults.... I am not an 11 year old boy, though. They both dislike Roger Moore ("He's too smiley") as Bond but love him in a weird movie called Ffolkes.

 

As far as the SWB, Peduwa... I am just not a big fan of the copywork and dictation. I just don't know why. I can see how it should be helpful, but I am just not sold on the "visual memory" or learning through repetition that way... My 10 yo can spell great during spelling, then it all goes out the window in any other context. He could write a word 100X and still spell it wrong if he isn't concentrating on it. I don't know... it is a bit of a gut feeling. I understand it, just don't quite drink the kool-aid. That is my nature though. I will always find the fatal flaw, or a piece that I dislike and then focus on, it is a real PITA. Trust me. MCT has always been gut reaction super good, find small flaw here or disagreement there... which does not change the scope of admiration and the program. Others, gut reaction neutral to middling bad... with a few glimmering lights of wisdom I agree with... does not pull it out of the can for me. It is the way I am. Do the positives outweigh the negatives, are they even close? I look at the WWE, wish I could use it... but I can't. I know myself and my HS style and capabilities well enough to know, it will not work for us.

 

I also agree with MCTs philosophy over SWB when it comes to formal outlining, and other skills that are becoming a bit obsolete and shouldn't be focused on too much. Taught, so they are understood, but then... poof... don't worry about it. Work on your actual essay. Think hard before you commit words to paper. Let's use this example. I go to MCTs lectures I am like "Yes! Oh yes! That's it!" I listen to (or go to) a SWB or Peduwa lecture and I am like, "Ok, that makes sense!... Hmm, not a big fan of that. Oh, that's a good idea! Ugh, no way!" It is a bit hard to define...do you get my general idea?

 

If I were going to fall into anyone else's camp I would fall into Bravewriter, but I am not a fan of how she formats either, but I can deal with it more easily than the other ones.

 

Well, I didn't mean to go on so long!

[Capt_Uhura]

I too love Brosnan as Bond! Not sure how I rank him w/ Connery....perhaps Connery set the bar and Brosnan met it?

 

I think it can be a matter of learning styles/personality. I see so many ways that copywork and dictation have helped my boys in writing. But it certainly won't work for everyone! We use WWE. It's pick up and go, do a little of writing everyday, discuss that grammar principle, exposure to a book we wouldn't have otherwise read......but if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. That's the hard part I think....find the things that work well for each child. So far, my boys have been very similar in learning styles whereas I know folks w/ very disparate children.

 

Same with outlining. I took notes while we watched a show on Prehistory. I noticed I was writing an outline. I showed DS how even a month later, I could read that outline of the show and write a paragraph about what it was about. Others would just jot down some notes and be done. I like writing an outline before I write b/c it helps me to order my thoughts. It's part of that think before your write process that MCT espouses but it sounds like he doesn't see a point to outlining? Yet, I spoke w/ a Bravewriter teacher and if I remember correctly, her opinion was that if you've fleshed out the ideas properly through freewriting, you don't need an outline. I know students who write the entire paper, and only write the outline when finished to satisfy a grading rubric. I think it all depends on how your mind works. Or perhaps I was taught w/ outlining so it's what I think i should do?

 

My issue is.....how do I figure out if my kids need outlining or if they are in the camp that don't? I figure I'll teach it and see if it helps them....but if they can sit down and write a nice essay w/out ever writing an outline, it's not needed. It's a tool....if you don't need the tool, at least know what it is, but put it away. Interestingly, my son recently took the MAP test and there were two outlining questions on it!

 

I don't know much about Pudewa. I looked into IEW briefly and it didn't speak to my soul. MCT speaks to my soul. :lol:

 

Thank you so much for the discussion! I just love this board!

 

Capt_Uhura

[MariannNOVA]

Connery -- the others do nothing for me.It was very difficult finding a photo to post -- in most of them, he is shown with a cigarette in his mouth, or a drink in his hand, or a gun in his hand, or smooching a woman (which I guess is fine in this day and age) -- so I selected what appears to be water sports.:D

 

Dictation and copywork - has its place, but my three are finished with it. I used it in my fourth grade classroom last year and the kids had never done it before. It was a huge help for all of them - it made them have to listen and think!

 

IEW -- All three children were taught writing using IEW in private school. DD 11 even came to my classroom and gave a mini lesson on it to my fourth graders last year when she was in fourth grade -- my fourth graders had never even written a sentence and they were stunned when I told then on the first day of school they had to write in cursive ALL the time.:w00t: (Oh, and they did, btw, write cursive ALL the time from that day forward). IEW provided a great foundation for all three children -- especially dd11 who received IEW instruction for three years -- BUT I did not care for the 'plug in a word' method. I tried to learn IEW, but I wasn't in love with it -- it was great for my kids b/c someone else taught it to them, but I was unable to continue it myself.

 

MCT -- dd11 loves the writing assignments in Paragraph Town -- she has told me on more than one occasion that she loves doing MCT b/c she understands WHY she is writing something as opposed to 'select a dress-up word' or whatever she was instructed in IEW. I think she told me (this was some months ago) that MCT allowed her freedom to explore different words and try different ways of saying something in her writing and she liked that.

 

I do have to say that IEW themed writing was excellent, imo, as far as vocabulary and writing exercises - BUT again, the IEW format had to be used and while dd11 was able to do it, once we started MCT, she didn't want to.

 

I think that's all I have to say on this -- did I say 'Connery?'

 

There is so little on the curric board that I can discuss with a level of comfort - so I'm thankful that I could participate in the 007 discussion!:lol:

Edited May 13, 2010 by MariannNOVA

[Capt_Uhura]

:lol:

 

Your DD's insight is very interesting Mariann! Thanks for posting!

 

Capt_Uhura

[MariannNOVA]

:lol:

 

Your DD's insight is very interesting Mariann! Thanks for posting!

 

Capt_Uhura

 

 

You know that I do my best to keep things superficial and not even get close to scratching the surface!:lol:

[Granny_Weatherwax]

From someone who used to watch Bond regularly I have to say Connery is the ultimate bond, followed by Roger Moore. The actors over the last 15 years have all left something to be desired.

 

I would like to see an essay written on "Who would prevail: James Bond or Jason Bourne?"

[MariannNOVA]

From someone who used to watch Bond regularly I have to say Connery is the ultimate bond, followed by Roger Moore. The actors over the last 15 years have all left something to be desired.

 

I would like to see an essay written on "Who would prevail: James Bond or Jason Bourne?"

 

Well, dd11 is searching as we speak for a topic for a paragraph for an assignment in Para Town -- probably not, though, right?

 

I'm torn! I'm married to a man who is 11 years younger than me!;)

[Guest]

The thing that always strikes me as so odd about these types of conversations is the split of the world of writing into "academic" (or formal, or whatever you want to call it) and "creative." By creative writing people always seem to mean writing stories, poetry, or personal journals. And by academic, they mean school papers: persuasive, descriptive, or evaluative essays (mainly non-fiction) following a certain pre-determined format.

 

There's so much else to both, and they don't have to occupy completely exclusive categories! Most educational programs concentrate on a very small slice of all the different types of writing out there in the world, not to mention experimental writing or works that involve multimedia. While learning to write an acceptable school-type essay is of course an important skill, the "essay" or "paper" does not have to be learned within the narrow constraints it usually labors under.

 

Journaling -- especially if it's a parent-required exercise in fluency and regular writing -- does not have to be personal writing, either. Artists keep notebooks with sketches, descriptions, notes on what they see; engineers and scientists keep notebooks (everyone is familiar with da Vinci's); naturalists draw pictures and keep notes of dates, sightings, tracks, habits, etc.; and on and on.

 

Likewise, it should not have to be an either-or proposition when it comes to thinking before you write and doing one draft, or following the revision-heavy writing process. Each has its merits, each will appeal to different personalities and styles, and each has its place for different writing purposes.

 

Every person who designs a writing program comes at it with his or her own writing biases, favorite composing habits, and certainties that this must indeed by the best way to work. This is not a criticism. We simply need to be aware of this (as I think everybody posting here is) and not think that any one program is going to be The Answer for every child, or even for one child all of the time... much as we would like this to be the case!

[radiobrain]

You guys all have to understand that I am just a mom who is learning how to teach my kids as I go along. :tongue_smilie:

 

MCT "speaks to my soul" (thank you for putting that into words!) where other programs just seem to BE THERE.

 

I think the beginning of this thread, before I got us on a James Bond tangent, had to do with academic writing in MCT. Didn't it?

 

About the outlining, that is another issue. I will refrain from putting words into MCT's mouth. I was pretty "out to lunch" at the convention... nothing like marital problems to make you not be able to concentrate at a homeschool convention! Plus my kids were in the room with me AND MCT had laryngitis! Trifecta!!!!

[Kuovonne]

MCT has always been gut reaction super good, find small flaw here or disagreement there... which does not change the scope of admiration and the program. Others, gut reaction neutral to middling bad... with a few glimmering lights of wisdom I agree with

 

:iagree: MCT LA strikes a chord with me. I have WWE and looked at IEW, but I just know that they wouldn't work for me.

 

I also agree with MCTs philosophy over SWB when it comes to formal outlining, and other skills that are becoming a bit obsolete and shouldn't be focused on too much.

 

Oooh!!!

Are you saying that I can ditch the rough draft *and* the outline!?!?!

And here I am stuck in Island level. You're making it really hard for me to not get the next set of books. Can you tell me any more about MCT's philosopy of the progression of writing skills?

 

If I were going to fall into anyone else's camp I would fall into Bravewriter, but I am not a fan of how she formats either, but I can deal with it more easily than the other ones.

 

Can you just test everything out for me? I also like the BraveWriter lifestyle. My daughter just isn't up to doing freewrites yet, and it's hard to go much farther in Bravewriter without doing any freewrites.

[Capt_Uhura]

Freewriting really opened up my DS9's writing! Bravewriter was the best money I spent on writing.

 

I'm not sure what you guys mean by "rough draft." Is he saying that the first time you put it on paper is your final copy? I find that hard to believe. I think of the rough draft is getting your ideas on paper then you go back and edit.

 

capt_uhura