Saxon vs. Singapore Math

[Twinmom]

Does anyone have experience with both programs and prefer one over the other? If so, why? I'm currently using Saxon for a 1st and a 2nd grader, and am pretty happy with it. However, I decided to also research other curriculums since I'm a new home schooler and just jumped right in last year w/o evaluating math curriculums.

 

I've been pretty angst-filled about math recently (as some recent posts mentioned! ;)), but really, I've got a grip now! I'm just wanting some anecdotes from you guys on which program you prefer and why. If it helps, I have one child who is average in math (w/ a bit of anxiety thrown in!) and another who is gifted. Very different kids...oh, the joys of adoption! Sometimes I swear home schooling was designed just for families like mine! :D

 

Thanks for your thoughts!

[Linda...inOwasso]

Saxon is a good, solid traditional math program. For a child who is not particularly strong in math, Saxon would be a good choice. Generally, the Saxon text is a year behind other math curriculums. So a typical 1st grader would use the 2nd grade text.

 

Singapore would definitely be a better choice for your gifted child. Both of my dd's tested as highly gifted and attended a private school for gifted children prior to this year (our 1st year of homeschooling.) My oldest dd used Singapore at her school so we continued with it at home. My youngest dd was only 3 at the time but she is 4 now and has almost completed Singapore Earlybird A & B and will begin Singapore K in about a month.

 

Both of my dd's are more mathmatically-inclined than I am. They thrive and do well with Singapore. To me, Singapore is much more mental than traditional math texts. Saxon is more comfortable for me, but we use Singapore because it's the best program for my dc. I hope that helps you in some way!!

 

BTW, thank you for adopting!! I was adopted at birth and am forever grateful. :) Bless you!!

[mcconnellboys]

I prefer Singapore for the way it teaches kids to think mathematically, but it does not contain enough review for some kids, unless perhaps you purchase one or more of the extra practice workbooks that are available.

 

Saxon is a tried and true, solid program. It is so full of repition, however, that some kids who are gifted mathematically just chafe under the yoke of it.

 

I have used combinations of both. I wanted the extra things that Saxon provided in grades 1-3, such as calendar, time, money, etc., etc. I switched to Singapore with MUS for my drill work this year. I just didn't need all the extra work in Saxon any longer.

 

It sounds to me like you might have one who would do well with each program.....

 

Regena

[Myrtle]

nt

[Kissy]

My son is gifted and Saxon drove him nuts. He was bored to tears. He loves Singapore Math though. He has done 3A, 3B, 4A, and will soon start 4B all since October. He does all the work I assign and gets the best grades ever in it. Something about it clicked with him. This is our first year homeschooling. We started in August with Saxon and he was dragging feet and complaining it was hard to get him to do anything.

[LizzyBee]

We've mostly used Singapore. It teaches solid mathematical thinking, there's no fluff, and it's easy to use; just pick it up and do the next thing. We also add math fact drill.

 

When I first began homeschooling, I went to a used bookstore and they had a bunch of Saxon grade 2 curriculum. I picked up a teacher's manual, flipped through it, and thought to myself that I'd throw up if I had to teach from that book every day. Math in the early grades is simple and it seems to me that Saxon makes it complicated.

 

But my middle child needed a break from Singapore for awhile, and so I bought a cheap used Saxon 5/4. We found some of the explanations unclear, incomplete, and sometimes mathematically incorrect. Some days I had to completely re-teach the lesson and tell my dd to ignore what the book said. She and I both were happy to get rid of that book and go back to Singapore.

[Aubrey]

We switched from Saxon to Singapore last year around Christmas. Math had been ds6's favorite subject, & all of a sudden, it became like pulling teeth.

 

Ds probably falls under the advanced category for math. He taught himself to add sometime around 2, & he was working (some) problems in his head by 5 w/out being able to explain how or why.

 

I think the manipulatives for Saxon are fun, but I guess by Christmas the novelty had worn off? And we didn't use them everyday. Some ladies here on the boards suggested Singapore, & he's been relatively enthusiastic about math ever since. (Not every day, though.;))

 

I think the mental math & the very different approach of Singapore would be stressful to some dc, but it happens to be the way *I* do math in my own head, so I love it. Sometimes I wonder if I was taught that way as a child or not?

 

Anyway, there's not much practice, & every time I go to the hs bookstore, I look at the extra practice books, but so far, I haven't bought one, because ds picks up the concepts either right away or within the practice given in the book (so far). It's the repetition of Saxon that got him, I think.

 

Fwiw, we started w/ Saxon 1, skipped halfway through to the middle, & did about half of Saxon 2 when we switched to Singapore. I can't remember if we started that w/ 1B or 2A, but he's about to wrap up 3A now.

 

Dd4 has begun asking for her own math, so I pulled out the old Saxon materials for her & couldn't take it. The *bulk* of it was exasperating! Compared to the slim Singapore vols, I decided to *see* if they'd work for her, too.

 

She started 1A yesterday & is complaining that it's too slow & boring, lol! I tried to plan a gentle approach since she's young, but after finishing 2 days' worth of math in 10 min, I'm rethinking that plan.

 

HTH!

[Michele B]

We have used Saxon 1 and are currently using Saxon 2. It is perfect for us. I bought all the Singapore last year because, well, I read all the glowing reports. Anytime a program is called "intuitive" I perk up. The two just do not compare. Saxon builds and reviews and has wonderful explanations that click and make the material non-threatening. Singapore just throws the material at you and you sink or swim. Last year in first grade, there was a clown character on each page and each was associated with a new addition fact family. On every page! Saxon starts with the doubles facts which are easy to memorize then presents the fact families in what seems to me a logical sequence. It's a learning personality thing. That's why the homeschool conventions are great - you get to flip through the materials. Well, conventions and having lot of great home school friends to swap with:D

 

Michele B:D

[Michele B]

Also - the manipulative component in Saxon is great. My dd7 felt like we were just playing together last year when we were doing the assignments with stuffed animals and acting out addition and subtraction "stories." She loves the manipulatives - the geo boards are her favorite. There is something different everyday. Somedays we use the clocks, somedays the geoboards, somedays the pattern blocks. I teach the concept while we are "playing" with the various manipulatives, so she has the concept before she is faced with a worksheet. It works for her; I can see how it might drive others nuts!

 

Michele B:D

[Closeacademy]

I used Saxon K with my dd when she was 3/4 years old. It was ok but I hate, hate, hate scripted lessons and really so does she. We just didn't get anything out of it and it felt like we were just going in circles and not headed in any sort of direction.

 

So after talking to some people on the Sonlight boards we tried Singapore Earlybird around this time of the year for her preschool year. She loved it and learned so much that it was as if math was her first language. We breezed through the earlybird books and picked up with primary math 1 for preK.

 

She is my very mathy dd. My other dd is not mathy but I am still using Singapore for her with Rod & Staff as a supplement. We will use it all the way through with the supplements recommended by Charon.

 

Basically, we switched early on and there has been no going back.:001_smile:

[Twinmom]

You all have given me a really good idea...hadn't occured to me before now (:blush:sometimes it takes me a minute!). I've been wanting to advance DS6 in math, but having him go beyond DD8 has really been discouraging to her. If they are working different programs, DD won't compare as easily! That could be really great. He could go whizzing on along at his fast clip and for her, it will be like comparing apples to oranges (only to a point, I'm sure!). He's one of those kids who looks at it once, "gets" it and then can explain it back to you in 5 different ways. She's more like the turtle in the rabbit/turtle race...slow and steady, but wins in the end!

 

Thanks for all the great info! Your comparisons of the programs are really great.

[Ester]

Singapore is our spine, Saxon for its "mile wide" part mostly, and skip a lot of the drills.

[AndyJoy]

I am not homeschooling my own kids yet, but I can tell you that I was mathematically gifted, used Saxon 87, Alg. 1, and Alg. 2, and LOVED it! Not all gifted kids dislike it. I loved its crisp black and white presentation without all the clutter in most math books. I loved how the instructions were directed at me, so I could teach myself and advance ahead without having to listen to a lecture to get it. I didn't get bogged down w/the number of problems because I only had to do the odds if I could prove that I got it. I took Pre-calc. and Calc. at a public school after Alg. 2, and had the highest grade in both classes, so I would say it gave me a good foundation. I've been working through Alg. 2 again lately just for fun.

 

With my own (future) kids, I'm going to look into Singapore as well, as I've been interested in the samples I've seen of it. I just wanted to get in a good word for Saxon from a gifted kid's perspective as well.

[Donna]

but always end up back with Saxon. It is a good, solid program and I appreciate the spiral approach. That being said, my children are all advanced in math and math oriented so I have made major modifications for each child. I do not use the scripted lessons at all and we do not do every problem in each chapter. I also homeschool year round so skip the first 20-30 lessons with each new book with assumes the child has had a summer off for brain rot ( except with middle ds who always likes the ego boost of knowing how to do the first few chapters in a new book--the other two would become bored instantaneously though).

 

I tried Singapore with my oldest (did Singapore 6 for about 2 months) because I heard all the raving about it but found it to be lacking in explanations and I had a hard time following it. Ds did fine with it but preferred Saxon so we switched back.

 

I tried Singapore with my youngest who knows math intuitively (she is also very musical so I see the math/music connection with her). She did 1A for about a month then told me she wanted to do "big kid" math like her brothers...ie. no cartoons on her pages and a more grown up look to the worksheets. So, we brought out the old Saxon program and she has been happy ever since with a lot of hop-skipping through.

[Twinmom]

Wow, you guys are really great with all this information! I'm tickled to have so much...I can't thank you enough for all the great and thorough responses!

 

I knew there was a reason I've been hanging out here so much! :D I've learned a tremendous amount from this board and have really improved my hsing as a result! I'm too new to have much rep to throw around, but I wish I could rep you all!

[Philothea]

My son is math and science oriented. We have not used Singapore but I have looked through the materials and I have reviewed the information on their website.

 

For us, Saxon is just the natural choice. For one, I am not mathematically inclined, sure I can do it, but once we get into the higher grades I will be learning it all over again. There is a cultural barrier for me in some of the Singapore materials, one thing or idea is depicted and I cannot tell what they want the child to do, until I see the answer.

 

The other thing that I do not like about Singapore are the pictures, we find that we do better without them in almost any subject.

 

That said, I think both programs are great and they will more than adequately prepare any child for college mathematics.

 

I do think Saxon does move a little slower, but in my experience Saxon K can be started at 3-4 years old. My son loves the manipulatives. I like but do not need the script, sometimes it is helpful though if you are tired and cannot think!

 

We'll be starting Saxon 1 in a few weeks and my son is 4.

[Carmen_and_Company]

My son is gifted and Saxon drove him nuts. He was bored to tears. He loves Singapore Math though. He has done 3A, 3B, 4A, and will soon start 4B all since October. He does all the work I assign and gets the best grades ever in it. Something about it clicked with him. This is our first year homeschooling. We started in August with Saxon and he was dragging feet and complaining it was hard to get him to do anything.

 

 

I had the same experience with my eldest ds about 7 years ago! I will never forget what he said," Saxon will be the death of me!"

 

Yep, precious son told me I was him killing with a textbook--lol. I posted on the old WTM boards where Singapore was suggested as an alternative. We never looked back, and SPM prepared Taz higher level math courses.

 

Some children do well with mastery, others with spiraling or incremental programs. I know many parents use Saxon as their main program & use SPM supplement books.

 

If you like Saxon, but also wish to check out Singapore, order the one semester of Singapore 1B or 2A and see if your dc prefer it to Saxon. If not, then stick with what works for your dc.

 

Oh, there's a book that helps parents decide on teaching methodology and curricula based on learning parent & child styles. I can't think of the author, but I know she coined the terms, "Wiggly Willie, Competent Carl, Perfect Paula, and Social [suzy/Sally]."

[pixelroper]

I have used Saxon for the last 10 years, with 6 different children and am still an enormous fan. I used Singapore briefly with one child many years ago and hated it with a passion which is still vivid for me - more importantly, I saw it take an enthusiastic math student into one who was bored, unhappy, and disconnected. .......

 

She understood the concepts, and could do all of the problems, but she felt it was the same thing over and over again with only superficial changes to make things appear like different problems; she hated the endless calculations and lack of variety - and she was really bothered by the disconnect from real life.

 

 

Here is something I wrote on the boards quite some time ago and an excerpt from an email - the questions were different, but some of my responses might speak to your concerns:

 

:iagree: w/this & the copy of her older post below it. Very similar situation here..

 

Flew through a couple of levels w/Saxon, everything was going great-- moved to Singapore for more of a challenge--crashed and burned, Why did she despise Singapore? The pictures (actually said the pictures were bigger in her head than just numbers & it was messy) and the concentration on one topic before going to the next (bored/boring/ughh). Was it because we started w/Saxon and switched, not sure. I won't argue that Saxon is *easier* for some quicker students, it was easy for dd to fly through it and I switched not because she didn't like it but because it looked as though I was going to spend double the money/year. I'm not that familiar w/the upper levels to make an accurate call on Saxon's higher math. My only personal beef w/it is, it was developed for a classroom, with diverse capabilities and interests. That will always, IMHO, take away from the one on one tutoring that usually accompanies hs, and the main reason we flew through it.

 

For whatever reason math seems to require the most individualized approach and it is puzzling because 2+2=4, right?

[Lucy in Australia]

I just wanted to put in my 2 cents and say that I just went through a mini "Maths crisis" here. My older son is doing grade 7, and is definitely gifted in Maths. I could easily see him following an engineering path, or something similar, so I didn't want to short-change him. (Also, Maths is my weakness, so I get easily freaked out :001_huh:) We have been doing A Beka till grade 4 then switching to Saxon. All was going well, until I suddenly decided Singapore Maths was "THE" programme to use (this is what comes of reading too many opinions) In short, Singapore was a miserable failure, both for the "mathy" one and also for the "non-mathy" one. Saxon works for us. It may be boring, sometimes. It may be reptitive, sometimes. In the end, though, they know their Maths very well.

[Twinmom]

It's funny how kids can be so different. Reading some of these posts reminds me of how DS (gifted) looks at something math-related once and remembers it, while DD (who is also very smart but not gifted) needs the spiral and the repetition for it to sink in. However, give him an art lesson and watch him freak! DD will go for it and pick up anything art related in two seconds flat.

 

Home schooling choices are so nice!

[Soph the vet]

We have used only Saxon and it has worked for us so far. My dh is an engineer and had a lot of input on our math curriculum choice. I have also had math through calculus at the high school and college level. It is a little "angst-provoking" to read some of the opinions about Saxon but we will stay the course for now. We want to prepare our dc for whatever career God has for them and feel that Saxon will provide a good math foundation for college. We are required to test yearly here (MN) and both dc test well above grade level in math.

[Nan in Mass]

Do you know how to search the boards? It was a really good thread.

 

My children are 13, 17, and 20. I've tried Saxon with two children, and Singapore with two children. Two are math/engineer type people, one is a non-math people person. Saxon was not good for us. It chopped the concepts up into very small pieces and niether of my two older children were unable to put the pieces together again into the concepts. The youngest would probably have been ok with Saxon because I think he would be able to extrapolate the math out of practically nothing, but he would have been bored to tears. The scary part is that both the older ones memorized the algorithms just fine with Saxon and got most of the problems right, so it looked like it was working. Unfortunately, they were just memorizing, not understanding. The oldest one went off to public high school and struggled and now, to get into college, is having to take college algebra at the community college. I feel awful about him, but I'd just started homeschooling and the hive mind didn't exist to help me. When it became obvious that my middle one couldn't apply any of his math to real life, I switched to Singapore. Although he struggles mightily with Singapore, it "fixed" him. He thinks mathematically now and is finishing off NEM3. He'll take pre-calc at the community college his senior year of high school. He is definatley a Singapore success story, considering that he is not a math person and had to back up to PM3 in 6th grade after completing the 5th grade Saxon in 5th grade. The youngest did math informally with me until he was 7, and then began Singapore with PM2. Now, at 13, he is finishing up NEM1. Singapore has its problems, but does teach mathematical thinking. It is easier to take a child who can think mathematically and fill in any holes than it is to try to do advanced math with a child who can whiz through the algorithms but doesn't understand what is going on.

 

If you do decide to use Singapore, be aware that they have a different grading scale. The Singapore site explains this. Read the textbook aloud to the child, working out the example problems on paper for them, and make sure that they are thinking about the problem the way the bubble children do. Have them do the textbook problems orally with you, and then do the workbook problems on their own, WRITING OUT THEIR WORK AS SHOWN IN THE BOOK. As you get up higher in the levels, you might want to get the solutions guide. Make sure you quiz your child on their math facts (doing this whenever you are in the car works well, as long as you have yours memorized thoroughily). And when you get to algebra, you might want to suppliment by doing a few of the Keys to Algebra books before NEM1. Or this is the point at which some other people switch to a US math program like Foerester or Jacob's.

 

HTH

-Nan

[Old Dominion Heather]

Singapore would definitely be a better choice for your gifted child.

 

I have to disagree with this... My son is gifted in math and he loves, loves, loves Saxon and the year we did in Singapore nearly sent him into "hate math land", i.e. crying every. single. day.

 

We accelerate his Saxon though. Saxon is a great program, but I think people feel way too tied to the grade levels. My son is whipping through 76 and he is eight. The format just makes sense for him. He loves it. He can transfer his knowledge to the other programs like Singapore, so I am sure he is really learning it. He just hated Singapore (except as a supplement) and loves Saxon.

 

Another problem I think people have with Saxon is that they don't adapt the program to meet their child's needs. Ds does not do every problem, every day. We pick out the most interesting with some review mixed in, but I don't have him do it all every single day. He certainly could do it, but why? (Edited to clarify: He does do at least 16 of the problems every day. This paragraph made it sound like maybe he did three a day or something.)

[langfam]

The scary part is that both the older ones memorized the algorithms just fine with Saxon and got most of the problems right, so it looked like it was working. Unfortunately, they were just memorizing, not understanding.

:iagree: We have used Saxon for 12 years...this is my exact experience with Saxon for my DD!!

 

I realize now that Saxon is not challenging, so it's easy to score well on their tests, giving the impression that the child is good at math.

 

Their method is to show the student how to solve the problem, then drill that algorithm. It doesn't give them opportunities to "think" hard to solve a problem. Singapore Math does that. It forces them to use what they have learned in new and difficult ways, promoting real problem solving and exercising the reasoning portion of the brain.

 

It is easy to use Saxon because it is easy to implement , but it's also easy to become complacent because you think your child gets math. When all the while they've just memorized processes and only can apply it to the limited scenarios presented to them. Anything outside the book is like a big question mark for them because they have not been challenged to find different ways to solve problem themselves.

 

I suspect some parent shy away from Singapore Math because it is challenging and difficult to implement, especially if there are several children in the family (my situation) because it is time consuming.

 

Growing up in Singapore, I'm a product of Singapore Math. It was my worst subject. I needed a tutor and did a lot of practice books outside the regular textbook. This is very common in Singapore. In fact, if you walk into a school-type bookstore there'll be numerous supplemental type books to add to the school curriculum and most parents will buy several extra and expect their children to complete them. I think for many kids this is the only way to succeed at Singapore Math. I completed *a lot* of practice workbooks!

 

So for some of my younger kids, I have used Saxon as a spine and supplement Singapore word problems. This is the best I can do for now.

 

Just my experience, not a criticism.

[Sarah CB]

I think the biggest difference is what each program requires (and expects!) of the student. This is most clearly illustrated in the word problems. I went through both programs a couple of years ago and pulled out similar word problems at various levels and Paula was kind enough to put the chart on her site:

 

http://www.redshift.com/~bonajo/singaporeword.htm

 

Sarah

[Old Dominion Heather]

: Anything outside the book is like a big question mark for them because they have not been challenged to find different ways to solve problem themselves.

 

We have not found this to be true. I do agree that Singapore 4A and B are light years ahead of Saxon 54 in the abstract problem solving required, but my son had no problems picking up the Singapore method. He didn't dislike the series out of frustration, he was just so bored with the pages of multiplication, pages of division, pages of fractions, pages of decimals. He just really likes the variety of Saxon's instruction.

[langfam]

Like I said it's my experience with my DD.....