How about logic?

[Desert Rat]

Can you tell it's time to shop for curriculum? :tongue_smilie:

 

Ds10 will start 5th grade in the fall and it will be time for logic.

 

Where do I start?

What curriculum do you enjoy?

 

I've been looking at Mind Benders but don't know with which level to start.

 

Thanks for your help!

[zaichiki]

I just got Fallacy Detective for my 11 yr old, but I want a logic plan for the coming years, so I'll be :lurk5: ...

 

I'm really interested in listening to what people are using and why they like it. :D

[Storm Bay]

Like Algebra, there's logic and there's logic :). We did things like Mind Benders etc with our dd's at that age, but less so with dd who does a lot of math. Mind benders isn't true logic in the full sense, but it did help. Ds has done much less of this. One of mine has also done some work in one of the Red Herrings books. We do a lot of if/then conversations, too, which help build logic.

 

My dd's have done Thinking Toolbox & Fallacy Detective, which are more like pre-logic in many ways. After those, we do Traditional Logic. Only one of mine has done any of this so far. Once she does TL 1 & 2 I hope to get her into Material Logic, but since she's in high school, that may or may not happen. Good math programs help a lot with logic, as well.

 

In order to be truly logical, the logic center of the brain has to develop, and that usually happens later than 10 and it not directly related to IQ. In the meantime, it's good to work on logical thinking and methods, but it really clicks later.

[Brindee]

If your 5th grader has done no logic yet, you may want to take him through the Prufrock Press Logic Series: Logic Countdown (grades 3-4), Logic Liftoff (grades 4-6) and Orbiting With Logic (Grades 5-7). The first two can be gone through fairly quickly. The last one can be done in his 5th grade year, or in his 6th grade year. THEN I'd do the Fallacy Detective and The Thinking Toolbox. Then move on from there.

 

Here's a link for Prufrock Press Primary Logic: http://www.prufrock.com/productdetails.cfm?PC=501

[JeanM]

I've been struggling with this with my ds11 who is finishing 5th grade.

 

We tried "Art of the Argument" last year and made it most of the way through that book. We both really liked parts of it, but it really is aimed at older children. I don't remember all the details since he did this last year, but there was stuff in there about abortion and maybe rape, and he wasn't really ready for those kinds of things. Or maybe I wasn't ready for them?

 

This year he has done lots of Mindbenders. He started out sort of liking them, and then decided he really hated them, and he didn't seem to be learning anything since he generally could do them fairly easily.

 

I also picked up "The Snake and the Fox", which we also started out liking it, but we stopped using it for a variety of reasons. Partly it was also getting into issues that he wasn't ready for, and it was getting confusing and tedious. I'm actually thinking now that I should look at it again. Right now things are a little crazy here, and we're finishing up formal schoolwork soon for the year and taking the summer off.

 

I'm at a total loss as to what to have him do next year. DS is very logical, loves strategy games, etc. I'm starting to think that I need to write my own logic program for him, because I'm just having severe trouble finding what I want.

 

Jean

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can you tell it's time to shop for curriculum? :tongue_smilie:

 

Ds10 will start 5th grade in the fall and it will be time for logic.

 

Where do I start?

What curriculum do you enjoy?

 

I've been looking at Mind Benders but don't know with which level to start.

 

Thanks for your help!

[Brindee]

I've been struggling with this with my ds11 who is finishing 5th grade.

 

We tried "Art of the Argument" last year and made it most of the way through that book. We both really liked parts of it, but it really is aimed at older children. I don't remember all the details since he did this last year, but there was stuff in there about abortion and maybe rape, and he wasn't really ready for those kinds of things. Or maybe I wasn't ready for them?

 

This year he has done lots of Mindbenders. He started out sort of liking them, and then decided he really hated them, and he didn't seem to be learning anything since he generally could do them fairly easily.

 

I also picked up "The Snake and the Fox", which we also started out liking it, but we stopped using it for a variety of reasons. Partly it was also getting into issues that he wasn't ready for, and it was getting confusing and tedious. I'm actually thinking now that I should look at it again. Right now things are a little crazy here, and we're finishing up formal schoolwork soon for the year and taking the summer off.

 

I'm at a total loss as to what to have him do next year. DS is very logical, loves strategy games, etc. I'm starting to think that I need to write my own logic program for him, because I'm just having severe trouble finding what I want.

 

Jean

There's a wide variety of critical thinking and logic materials for a variety of levels on this site: http://www.barbsbooks.com/logic.htm

[Desert Rat]

Hmm. Thanks for the responses. So, if I'm processing this correctly, I should start with simple pre-logic books like MindBenders or Logic Countdown. Then, as the logic center develops more (12 or so?) I should move on to Traditional Logic or Fallacy Detective. Did I get it right? It might come down to a price thing. :(

I re-read TWTM section again this weekend and SWB recommends Red Herrings and Mindbenders. It had been awhile since I checked in on her recommendations.

[Storm Bay]

Hmm. Thanks for the responses. So, if I'm processing this correctly, I should start with simple pre-logic books like MindBenders or Logic Countdown. Then, as the logic center develops more (12 or so?) I should move on to Traditional Logic or Fallacy Detective. Did I get it right? It might come down to a price thing. :(

I re-read TWTM section again this weekend and SWB recommends Red Herrings and Mindbenders. It had been awhile since I checked in on her recommendations.

 

 

Yes, that's right.

[Gratia271]

I think you have to contemplate where your student is at in determining readiness for logic. High ability kids may arrive at the logic stage well before age 12. Try to preview some of these curricula to avoid wasting money on things below your student's level.

[Storm Bay]

I think you have to contemplate where your student is at in determining readiness for logic. High ability kids may arrive at the logic stage well before age 12. Try to preview some of these curricula to avoid wasting money on things below your student's level.

 

 

Right. There's also logic and logic. Some areas aren't going to open up until they are older simply due to the way brains are wired a different stages. A younger child may be able to do Syllogisms, etc, but not necessarily full blown logic or full Geometry proofs, etc. Or they might do them but not really get them.

 

When it comes to school, my dc were at the logic stage far ealier than 12. My dd's must have done the rote stage before we started academics, because that type of learning didn't work for them when it was supposed to. That said, I still don't think that the logic centres of their brains were fully wired yet.

 

There are certain logical fields where you see child prodigies, such as in math, and certain other areas where you don't, such as philosophy. I don't think it's only a matter of life experience, either, although that's part of it. The human brain doesn't finish getting its myelin sheath until about age 30. (Only newborns have all grey brains ;)) Even then, there are changes that happen later that help lead to the postitive changes we see after around age 40, etc.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Karin

[Gratia271]

I completely agree with the points you have made. There are students who can do this type of work before 12, though.

[Storm Bay]

I completely agree with the points you have made. There are students who can do this type of work before 12, though.

 

Yes, there are!!! But I still think that they get a deeper understanding of it when they get older. Jann in TX is very interesting to read on the high school forum. She once did a post about proofy Geometry. She is pg, and did Geometry in high school, but didn't really understand what she was doing until she began teaching it. That was my point about logic and logic. I have no doubt that my eldest could have learned syllogisms, etc, before 12 and understood it, but not at the same level of understanding that she had doing it later. Depth is important to me. It must be the introvert half of me:D. I think that we need to teach tools for logical thinking all the time as parents, though, regardless of aptitude or readiness, and then gear things according to each child.

[Violet Crown]

My dh, who teaches Intro Logic at Big State U., highly recommends Barwise and Etchemendy's Tarski's World for self-taught logic at a high school age (not quite the same as the syllogism-based logic of most hs curricula). Our 14yo found it helpful.

[Desert Rat]

Thanks everyone. I think I'm on the right path. Maybe not the right direction on that path but we'll give logic a whirl this year and see how he does. Thanks for all your help! (I just checked back in here after several days and saw so many new posts. It made me smile.)

[Spy Car]

I threw Fallacy Detective into the trash, I disliked it that much.

 

It's one of those works where the authors push their (ultra-conservative) world-views on the the most hot button of topics in ways that have little to do with informal logic as a topic, and everything to do with attempting to inculcate the authors' political and theological values in our children.

 

Buyer beware.

 

Bill

[Hillary in KS]

I threw Fallacy Detective into the trash, I disliked it that much.

 

It's one of those works where the authors push their (ultra-conservative) world-views on the the most hot button of topics in ways that have little to do with informal logic as a topic, and everything to do with attempting to inculcate the authors' political and theological values in our children.

 

Buyer beware.

 

Bill

 

Bill, isn't your child only 6 or 7? :confused:

 

Are you already studying logic with him/her? Isn't that kind of young?

 

Are you purchasing logic curriculum ahead of time? Maybe to peruse or study ahead so you'd know what to use with your child when they finally get to the logic stage?

 

Or did you buy it to study on your own? (I'm assuming you didn't borrow a copy of FD, as you wouldn't throw someone else's copy away.)

 

What do you recommend for logic, and how well does it fit with your child?

 

Thanks!

 

Hillary :)

[Spy Car]

Bill, isn't your child only 6 or 7? :confused:

 

No. He's not yet 6.

 

Are you already studying logic with him/her?

 

No. I'm not studying informal logic with him yet.

 

Isn't that kind of young?

 

I think so.

 

Are you purchasing logic curriculum ahead of time? Maybe to peruse or study ahead so you'd know what to use with your child when they finally get to the logic stage?

 

Or did you buy it to study on your own? (I'm assuming you didn't borrow a copy of FD, as you wouldn't throw someone else's copy away.)

 

I'm interested in teaching my son logic and informal logic at some time in the future. I saw a copy of Fallacy Detective in a bookshop used when he was an infant. At that time I'd never heard of the Bluedorns (or had any idea of what they stand for), all I knew was his was an informal logic book I'd seen mentioned on the "old boards" so I bought it and read it :eek:

 

And into the trash it went. I can't remember any other book that wasn't somehow damaged that I've thrown away, but this book repulsed me.

 

Now I understand who the Bluedorns are and what they believe, and I'm no longer so naive as to think homeschool authors can be automatically trusted to stick to the topic at hand, rather than using their materials to advance their ideological and theological beliefs. Its been a hard won lesson.

 

What do you recommend for logic, and how well does it fit with your child?

 

 

It's still an open question. MEP math has some mathematical logic included in their materials, and I need to look at some of the Critical Thinking Company materials. But logic and informal logic have been areas where the materials available (such as Nance/Wilson) have been totally unsuitable for our future needs.

 

I did read one informal logic text by Douglas Watson (not to be confused with Doug Wilson) which was rather good, but it is a college level text and would require adapting for the logic stage. I'd prefer not to go to that much work, but we will see.

 

If you have good suggestions I'm all ears :bigear:

 

Bill

[elizabeth]

http://home.sandiego.edu/~baber/logic/syllabus.html

http://www.philosophy.uncc.edu/mleldrid/logic/syl.html

http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/120/syllabus.htm

http://pioneer.chula.ac.th/~hsoraj/PhilandLogic/index.html

 

 

This is just a cursory grab bag of syllabi from colleges around the country. I always look for texts this way as I wish to avoid reading a textbook that is either written by a novice or one in which there is obvious effort to promote a certain conclusion rather than focusing on the manner of arriving at a conclusion. There is not a logic text written for younger students that I have found suitable for our family. Thus, I bought a college level text . Mind Benders http://www.criticalthinking.com/series/013/index_c.jsp were not bad but rather merely a suitable introductory series . I do wish someone would write a non sectarian logic text series that respects the integrity of the subject rather than pimping for a worldview.

[Gratia271]

What about Introduction to Logic by Gensler? It is a college text, so it would be for older students.

[elizabeth]

Looks good 400 pages..wowsers.He is prolific some of the other texts might be interesting as well. I love google books as one can actually see a bit more than on amazon or barnes. My point in the previous post is that there are so many well written texts out there why settle ??

[Hillary in KS]

 

If you have good suggestions I'm all ears :bigear:

 

Bill

 

We're using the "Critical Thinking" books One and Two first. They're certainly.... thorough, but very dry.

 

Next year (9th grade) I'm looking at "Traditional Logic" and then "Material Logic". From there on to "Art of Argument."

 

In speaking with older homeschoolers, I've heard and seen good things about what I've (so far) chosen. But I've yet to see something I'm *thrilled* to use for logic.

 

The one thing I *did* appreciate about FD was that it was a gentle introduction to some aspects of the subject. For a logic-phobic 6th grader, FD was a gentle and occasionally humorous book. Even (or perhaps "especially") the topics with which we disagreed with the authors provided great conversation. It was a nice springboard into the far meatier "Critical Thinking" books.

 

H. :001_smile:

[Guest S Harris]

I'm so new at this that I shouldn't be posting. But... I am also planning fifth grade for my 10 year old son and have settled on The Gift of Logic series. http://www.giftoflogic.com/home.html I found out about this series from a website that listed resources for gifted kids. I didn't see a referece to these workbooks so I just wanted to let everyone know they exist.

 

There is not much available on the web as far as reviews but I do like what I see from the sample pages. I wish everyone would provide such a sample!

 

S

[Storm Bay]

No. He's not yet 6.

 

 

 

I did read one informal logic text by Douglas Watson (not to be confused with Doug Wilson) which was rather good, but it is a college level text and would require adapting for the logic stage. I'd prefer not to go to that much work, but we will see.

 

If you have good suggestions I'm all ears :bigear:

 

Bill

 

Have you read Philosophy For Kids? We have that and I did some of it with my eldest. I plan to do all of it with my other two. Also, I haven't looked at it, but people here used to recommend a series I think was called Dandylion, but it's been a few years since I was investigating this.

 

IMO all of these things are biased, only in different way. I got fed up reading Plato's Republic a few years ago, even though I enjoyed it at first. I got tired of all his assumptions he was throwing in there. I really wanted to enjoy the entire thing. Sadly I discovered that I can read & understand philosophy at an age when I get fed up with that sort of thing. Perhaps in a few years I'll be more relaxed about all of that and can get back to reading it. Okay, philosophy isn't exactly logic, but it's a related field.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Karin

[Spy Car]

Have you read Philosophy For Kids?

 

No, not yet. I have seen some of the positive mentions here recently. Have you seen it?

 

Billr

[Storm Bay]

No, not yet. I have seen some of the positive mentions here recently. Have you seen it?

 

Billr

We have it, and I did some of it with my eldest, but want to do it with my others. There are 40 questions divided into 4 sections (Values, Knowledge, Reality & Critical Thinking). Once a question is asked and your dc answers it, there is discussion, and it will usually discuss the view of a philosopher (from ancient times to now,) etc. There is also something called "For Further Thought" for each one.

 

Not every question mentions philosopher in the discussion, but all the questions provoke thought and discussion. Questions include things such as "What does it mean to be fair?", "What is time?" and "Can something logical ever not make sense?" It's geared for 10 & up and published by Proofrock Press, which publishes materials for gifted & accellerated dc (or is it just gifted? It's been a few years.) It's a secular book that promotes independent thinking. I do have to say that I let my dc read the book you threw out because they like the humour, but they read so many things with different biases that I don't worry about it--it's not formal logic and we discuss biases. So far I haven't seen a logic program out there for high school (haven't seen that college text you mentioned) without a bias, but what I like about Philosophy for Kids is that it doesn't give a right or wrong answer.

[Spy Car]

We have it, and I did some of it with my eldest, but want to do it with my others. There are 40 questions divided into 4 sections (Values, Knowledge, Reality & Critical Thinking). Once a question is asked and your dc answers it, there is discussion, and it will usually discuss the view of a philosopher (from ancient times to now,) etc. There is also something called "For Further Thought" for each one.

 

Not every question mentions philosopher in the discussion, but all the questions provoke thought and discussion. Questions include things such as "What does it mean to be fair?", "What is time?" and "Can something logical ever not make sense?" It's geared for 10 & up and published by Proofrock Press, which publishes materials for gifted & accellerated dc (or is it just gifted? It's been a few years.) It's a secular book that promotes independent thinking. I do have to say that I let my dc read the book you threw out because they like the humour, but they read so many things with different biases that I don't worry about it--it's not formal logic and we discuss biases. So far I haven't seen a logic program out there for high school (haven't seen that college text you mentioned) without a bias, but what I like about Philosophy for Kids is that it doesn't give a right or wrong answer.

 

I will really have to look into Philosopy for Kids, it sounds great.

 

I also keep meaning to write Douglas Watson (who wrote the informal logic book I mentioned) to plead with him to write a young persons informal logic text. There really ought to be informal logic and logic materials we could all feel comfortable using, and that are outstanding. I'm definitely not loving the current offerings, and I gather I'm not alone.

 

Bill

[LisaDSB]

I will really have to look into Philosopy for Kids, it sounds great.

 

Coincidentally, I just blogged a mini review about that book. I really like how it encourages me to use a Socratic questioning method with the kids, and how they really open up and put a lot of thought into their answers.

 

As for logic, we haven't done anything formal, but the kids have enjoyed several books by Mindware, including Logic Links, Perplexors and Analogy Challenges.

[radiobrain]

I'm so new at this that I shouldn't be posting. But... I am also planning fifth grade for my 10 year old son and have settled on The Gift of Logic series. http://www.giftoflogic.com/home.html I found out about this series from a website that listed resources for gifted kids. I didn't see a referece to these workbooks so I just wanted to let everyone know they exist.

 

There is not much available on the web as far as reviews but I do like what I see from the sample pages. I wish everyone would provide such a sample!

 

S

 

Well, I might be a bit skeptical of a first post.. but these do look pretty decent. ;) I have been struggling to find a logic program that is not all of the other ones, just because, none of them resonate well with me. I am weird, though.

 

I will keep this on my radar screen. Thanks.

[Violet Crown]

My dh teaches philosophy both to university students and to little kids (ours). Two resources he uses at the pre-K through elementary age are Mitsumasa Anno's Hat Tricks (which I mentioned on a thread on the K-8 board) and Gareth Williams' Philosophy and the Young Child.

 

Hat Tricks, like all Anno's math books, starts at a very simple level: a man has a red hat and a white hat; he puts one hat on the reader and one on a little boy in the book; you can see that the little boy is wearing a red hat; which hat are you, the reader, wearing? And it gets incrementally more complex from there, as the reader has to make a series of logical deductions.

 

Williams' book is about how to discuss topics of philosophical interest to children in ways they can understand, often making use of children's literature. For instance, in The Wizard of Oz, the Tin Woodman explains that he became tin because he had a series of accidents in which he chopped off first one leg and replaced it with tin; then the other; then arms; then torso and finally head. There are many questions of personal identity here: is the Tin Woodman the same person as the original woodcutter? If not, at what point did he become not the same person? Why? What makes a person that person and not some other person? Etc. It's not a textbook, but instruction in how to help children think philosophically.

 

P.S. to Bill: my dh agrees with your assessment of The Fallacy Detective.

[Spy Car]

My dh teaches philosophy both to university students and to little kids (ours).

<Snip>

 

P.S. to Bill: my dh agrees with your assessment of The Fallacy Detective.

 

In what regard? Surely he would not argue that the authors' don't interject their own ideological positions on hot-button social issues into the text? Or that the books are clearly meant to support and recruit children into a worldview?

 

Because these are things that I see as incontestable. And are things I object to quite strongly.

 

Bill

[Doubleblessings]

:bigear:

[LisaDSB]

A fun logic game on CDRom is the Zoombinis. My kids love it. There are three separate games. I think it's for 8+, but they've enjoyed it since about age 6.

[Violet Crown]

In what regard? Surely he would not argue that the authors' don't interject their own ideological positions on hot-button social issues into the text? Or that the books are clearly meant to support and recruit children into a worldview?

:confused:

Maybe I need more coffee ... He wouldn't argue against those things, because he agrees with them. Is it possible you read "dh agrees" as "disagrees"? That would be the sort of thing I'd do. :)

[Spy Car]

:confused:

Maybe I need more coffee ... He wouldn't argue against those things, because he agrees with them. Is it possible you read "dh agrees" as "disagrees"? That would be the sort of thing I'd do. :)

 

My appologies! :001_huh: :D

 

It really is time for a vision check :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill (:blushing:)

[Violet Crown]

That's okay. You can atone by continuing to train up your young mathematicians in preparation for brilliant and satisfying, if underpaid, careers as analytic philosophers. :D

[Bostonian]

The book

 

First Course in Mathematical Logic

by Patrick Suppes and Shirley Hill (1964), Dover reprint (2010)

 

is similar to a book Suppes used to teach logic to elementary

schol students in the 1960s, as dicussed in a 1965 paper he co-authored, "Experimental teaching of mathematical logic in the elementary school"

http://suppes-corpus.stanford.edu/article.html?id=54-3

 

Suppes is the main person behind the EPGY online courses of Stanford.

[Spy Car]

That's okay. You can atone by continuing to train up your young mathematicians in preparation for brilliant and satisfying, if underpaid, careers as analytic philosophers. :D

 

Or an optometrist ;) :D

 

Bill

[lovemyboys]

We're using the "Critical Thinking" books One and Two first. They're certainly.... thorough, but very dry.

 

Next year (9th grade) I'm looking at "Traditional Logic" and then "Material Logic". From there on to "Art of Argument."

 

In speaking with older homeschoolers, I've heard and seen good things about what I've (so far) chosen. But I've yet to see something I'm *thrilled* to use for logic.

 

The one thing I *did* appreciate about FD was that it was a gentle introduction to some aspects of the subject. For a logic-phobic 6th grader, FD was a gentle and occasionally humorous book. Even (or perhaps "especially") the topics with which we disagreed with the authors provided great conversation. It was a nice springboard into the far meatier "Critical Thinking" books.

 

H. :001_smile:

 

Thanks for the list. We're hitting the lower edge of *real* logic with dc....so I've been reading up on this this week.

 

Younger ds has been gobbling up the Logic Safari books since 1st grade. I'm not sure there's another level or if it's just time to move on with him.

 

I recently sold a couple Critical Thinking Co. books (where's the sob smiley for selling brand new material?) because dc just get this kind of stuff and don't go for more worksheets. Should've known better on these. I do like their critical thinking with science, etc., to further the exploration.

 

Just when you get something or someone *figured out,* he changes or advances or matures and it's back to the research! :tongue_smilie::lol:

[Krissi]

We are using the WTM suggestions, the ones you reread. You start with the Mind Benders Warm-Up and then work through all of A, B, and C, along with Red Herring. Then onto Critical Thinking Book A, and then B (in 6th). I think the suggestions are good, not too tough, but still some challenge.