Parenting SOS question for 17yo dd (deceit, rebellion); PLS reply if you have BTDT...

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just one note on the counseling. I do think you need to see someone. But - there is a huge range of counseling services out there ranging from church counselors who are good listeners with some wisdom for more everyday problems to psychiatrists who can diagnose and treat serious mental illness. I think you need someone who is at least a psychologist and can diagnose if the lying is part of mental illness or not. Perhaps someone who does not have a psychology degree could help but I think you would have to use more discernment to find someone who is actually qualified to help your dd's problems.

[Haiku]

I just wanted to add that it can be hard to go against the idea that kids should have privileges doled out for good behavior and have those privileges restricted when they screw up. It seems counter-intuitive (to me, at least) that kids who push the limits should be given more freedoms. We have discovered, however, with our 15 year old, that the more we punished for misbehavior, the worse things got. Against my better judgment, we started giving her more freedom. I certainly won't say it has worked like a charm, because she still screws up and and she still demonstrates poor judgment. But, I think she does this less than she did before because she knows now that the problems will land squarely in her lap to solve and not be "solved" by punishment. It's been a bit of a rude awakening for my dd to discover that she truly has to take on more responsibility for herself, and I think the stumbles and the falls have taught her more than the punishments ever did.

 

Tara

[Liz CA]

I cannot imagine restricting my son like this. He is now almost 19 but beginning when he was 15, we gave him more freedom while we discussed what expected behavior is. When everything worked out well he got more freedom.

 

Freedom and privileges have to be practiced - and there has to be room to fail as well without earth shattering consequences. I am all for consequences but they have to fit the crime.

 

I would let her keep the cell and let her text anywhere but in the car. I'd explain to her why she does not need to text in the car because she can do it at home in plain view and that people can get killed when she is not paying attention to driving.

 

Jean had a lot of good points. Perhaps you can try to give her a chance with trusting her more to do the right thing - hopefully she will find she does not need to lie to you as much then - or at all.

 

I, too live in the country where a RT to anywhere is practically an hour. If I shared a car with my ds I would explain why I need him to be home on time - not because I would not want him to stop somewhere to control him but because I need the car to be here at a certain time.

Maybe on the days when you don't need the car you can specifically point out:"Feel free to run an errand if you need to but please call me if you are going to be later than...because I worry about you if you are not here by...

 

Perhaps I have an easy-going guy but we had little difficulties with this approach.

[Renee in NC]

I just wanted to add that it can be hard to go against the idea that kids should have privileges doled out for good behavior and have those privileges restricted when they screw up. It seems counter-intuitive (to me, at least) that kids who push the limits should be given more freedoms. We have discovered, however, with our 15 year old, that the more we punished for misbehavior, the worse things got. Against my better judgment, we started giving her more freedom. I certainly won't say it has worked like a charm, because she still screws up and and she still demonstrates poor judgment. But, I think she does this less than she did before because she knows now that the problems will land squarely in her lap to solve and not be "solved" by punishment. It's been a bit of a rude awakening for my dd to discover that she truly has to take on more responsibility for herself, and I think the stumbles and the falls have taught her more than the punishments ever did.

 

Tara

 

This is true. The other important piece of the puzzle is letting them take the consequences of their own decisions for these choices. An example from my ds was grades - he was failing Biology (in ps.) I didn't punish him for it, but rather pointed out that if he failed it (or even got a D) he'd have to go to summer school to replace the grade. That was the consequence - what good would grounding him have done?

 

As far as the lying goes, I don't know whether she is a pathological liar or not, but I know my ds. He lies to his Dad all the time because it is easier to tell him what he wants to hear than to listen to the lectures and condemnation when he tells the truth. Makes me nuts, but the reality is that I would feel tempted to lie to his Dad, too, if it meant avoiding the nastiness.

[Annabel Lee]

nm

Edited March 2, 2010 by Annabel Lee

[Quiver0f10]

I am not sure if controlling her every move is part of her grounding or that you don't normally allow her to stop for fast food or the library etc but she is almost an adult and at this point you have taught her what she knows, her values are in place. Now she needs your guidance to make ther right choices in her life. The hardest part of having grown children is sitting back and allowing them to make the wrong choice and letting them learn from it.

[Joanne]

One small suggestion.

 

Approach counseling with her carefully. Make sure you are framing it as a way to help her transition into adulthood and heal/repair family relationships, and get EVERYONE help. Not taking her to counseling because she's got issues.

[Laurie4b]

The ADD is controlled medically. It seems like it works well - than doesn't work - hard to measure. She has been on the meds for about 2 years.

 

.

 

You might want to partner with your dd about adding in natural ways to control the ADD (not subtracting the meds, but strengthening the overall plan) because having ADD does make for higher driving risks. You can search the special needs board for "natural ADHD" or "Natural ADD" and probably find a lot of threads. The online magazine ADDitude is also excellent. It's free.

 

Natural things that help control ADD: time outside (may already get a lot of this since you live in a rural area. My ds with ADD is outside a few hours a day.), fish oil supplements (research-proven to help with ADD), chewing gum (no kidding--gives proprioceptive input plus oral focus), strong flavors such as peppermint, cinnamon, and lemon are alerting and help focus, protein with every meal and snack, exercise. Things that build up working memory will help ADD as well. Brainware Safari is available through Homeschool Buyers' Coop for about $50. It made a huge difference in ds's ability to pay attention long enough to get through an assignment. We haven't get done Cogmed, but it's the gold standard, with several double-blind tests. Improving her working memory will improve her ability to stay on task.

 

 

Here is a very helpful book for women with ADD. (It manifests somewhat differently in women) http://www.amazon.com/Women-Attention-Deficit-Disorder-Differences/dp/1887424970/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267285822&sr=8-2

Edited February 27, 2010 by Laurie4b

[lllll]

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Edited March 23, 2013 by 3kt68

[Joanne]

- counseling. I'm not even sure I'd do this. Chances are she's going to lie to the counselor just like she lies to you. It might help YOU though.

 

:

 

Clearly this is a family issue and the OP/mom has a vested interest and agenda on the focus.

 

However, the adult/child involved needs *help* with her skill sets, cognitive processing, and transition to adulthood. I think approaching counseling with the idea that it is to fix the child of Mom's percieved problems is a myopic perspective on what counseling can do for this family and near adult child.

[Janice in NJ]

Lisa,

 

While I don't feel like I have enough experience to offer you a ton of advice, I would recommend that you search out the very graphic Public Service Announcement that was run in Europe on texting while driving. It used to be on You Tube, but now it looks like it's been censored and flagged as being too violent.

 

It sounds like your daughter is branching out a bit and wants to feel like an adult. She wants adult privileges. Fine. People who bear up under adult responsibilities should be allowed adult privileges. Is she ready for that or is she acting like a two-year-old throwing a tantrum? Maybe it's time to show her some of the potential real-life consequences of children who have adult privileges but still act like children. It can be a no-joke situation.

 

Sometimes you can't just say that you're sorry when you make adult-level mistakes.

 

If you can find the video, it's a very graphic portrayal of a teen girl who is texting while driving. She causes a violent death for a lot of people. The video is clear. She ruins several families forever with her "mistake." Car crashes are no joke. Kids don't get that. They need to. All of my kids have seen the video. Several years ago my dh spent almost 3/4 of an hour under a flipped truck with an elderly gentleman who was in great distress. We were waiting for the ambulance in a rural area. He survived and was able to keep his arm - thanks to the helicopter lift. His wife died. The man who hit them was drunk. When dh saw the texting video, he immediately yelled for all of our kids to come and watch it. Our youngest was 12.

 

I would start to have some pretty graphic discussions with your daughter about why you and your dh have the rules that you have. They are for her benefit, not her ill. If she wants adult privileges, she needs to demonstrate adult-level responsibilities. She is entering a stage of life where you are not going to be able to kiss it to make it better if she acts like a child. By acting like a child, she is forcing you to treat her like one. Her actions have demanded your response. These consequences are the result of her actions - not the result of some willy-nilly tug-of-war of the wills. What does she want you to do? Ignore her when she fails to live up to her responsibilities? She needs to know why you are doing what you are doing. Ask her if she were doing the parenting would she really just allow her child to ____ with no consequences what-so-ever. Serious conversation. Does she really expect you to just allow her to be a taker in life? Is that what she really wants? To be ignored?

 

I'm so sorry that you're dealing with this. It must be so, so hard. Sending hugs! And praying for wisdom for all of you.

 

Peace,

Janice

[74Heaven]

We do have heart-to-heart and adult privilege/responsibility kinds of conversations regularly. What we don't do enough is encourage and recognize tiny amts. of growth she shows. We're working on that and also on making the relationship the priority.

 

To the posts about "letting her have her age 17 freedoms". This is a girl who took Driver's Ed, is driving, has had her license since soon after 16yo, a car wreck, has had 2 jobs, took a college class for lifeguarding, was on swim team til she quit, has had a cell phone for a couple of years, did early enrollment at the CC last fall, took classes at the local public school, is now at a co op but we are not there. This is a girl who is getting lots of freedom opptys. We are trying to give her more freedoms - but she keeps ruining the chances.

 

And I know many posters have posed questions and I can't answer them all now - but the lying has always been a problem with this dtr. Dtr. def. wants to go to college, my dh and I have sugg. poss. a gap year for working and maturing. I don't think this dtr will leave home at 18yo. She is not a leader, but a follower. Dtr does pay the "extra" expenses such as ins. and cell phone.

 

My husband and I have been trying to give age-appropriate freedoms to this child and the damaged trust relationship has hindered us greatly.

 

And posters -= thank you. I realize when you (me) ask for advice on the internet, you need to be thick-skinned and do a lot of soul-searching on the answers. So I am def. thinking and praying about all of the advice.

 

And btw, counseling is def. going to happen. I will carefullly choose a Christian counselor who loves God's Word and the instruction given there.

 

Lisa

Edited March 1, 2010 by 74Heaven
add info

[Jean in Newcastle]

:grouphug: while you seek wisdom in what to do.

[Janice in NJ]

Lisa,

 

Sounds like you and your dh are definitely doing all that you can. Sending hugs! I hope that things change soon. Life can be so hard when we are doing all that we can.

 

I'm so sorry that you are dealing with these issues. Just keep on keeping on.

 

Peace,

Janice

[Tammy]

nt

[cricket1178]

I have a 15 yo dd that I can see in a similar situation when she reaches that age and driving. I'm a little surprised by all the remarks about giving her more freedom. She isn't adhereing to the current rules. No way would I give freedom to a dd that isn't already doing what is expected. This is a tough situation and I hope you get some answers that will work for your family. If you do, please share what works. I'll probably be needing that information. In the meantime, I'll pray for your family.

[EthiopianFood]

And btw, counseling is def. going to happen. I will carefullly choose a Christian counselor who loves God's Word and the instruction given there.

 

 

Someone already said this earlier in this thread, but please make sure you find someone who is at LEAST a psychologist, if not a psychiatrist. It is not that you will be trying to find a "diagnosis," it's just that, if there is one, no more time should be wasted in addressing it. An untrained person will not know what to look for. Your daughter, yourself, and your whole family deserve to have the BEST chance and working through all of this. There are many excellent psychologists who are very solid, committed Christians who will support your beliefs and involved God in every step you take.

 

Good luck. I certainly admire your openness to ideas here. :grouphug:

[lakotajm]

- lying. I was listening to a sermon of John MacArthur's once where he was explaining how lying is the gateway to just about all the other sins. It doen't mean they WILL go down the path to all the other sins. It just means that's where it starts. I think you're right to take it very seriousy. Does she actually study her Bible; or even read it? If so, how does she reconcile her behavior with what the Bible says about it? I would actually question whether she's saved. The church is packed with people claiming to be Christians who are not really Christians. They usually look good on the outside, until one day when all the hidden sin comes spilling out and they are revealed for who they truly are.

 

My now-35yos also used to lie all the time. The only thing that I found that helped him was to confront every single lie/exaggeration instantly when it occurred. I don't keep friends who lie to me anymore, so I quit trying to be his friend and started being his parent. He still lies.

 

 

 

I think this focus on the lying is what is causing me such pain to read this thread (that, and I can see her dd's pain). What in the world does not sinning (not lying) have to do with being saved, or a Christian? As I understand it, what makes the grace God gave to me, a sinner, so amazing, is that I did not deserve it, and still don't; never did and never will. Even the Apostle Paul bemoaned his weak flesh. He continued to do what he should not even thought he knew he should not. Was he not saved?

 

Another point to conider, though the Bible does speak in various places about the harm lying does, and that God hates it, it is not considered a sin so heinous that one is in jeopardy of losing one's soul if you do it. Only lying intentionally (as an adult) to cause others pain and suffering-in those days possibly death and then exile for his family-as a false witness (in court) was ever seen as a big enough deal to be considered a commandment of God. Even then, atonement was provided. The focus on the act of lying is a red herring, IMHO. I think this is what that counselor was gently trying to say.

 

I cringed about the ADD and the other posters who mentioned why they lied as rebellious teens. Yes! The root here may be feelings of inadequacy, lack of confidence because she knows she has pulled major boners and wishes she hadn't, so the lies are definitely sounding like the "wish it weres" of a teen feeling like she can't figure out how to be the person she wishes she were. She screws up, she hates herself. She lies so she can hate herself less and so you will not condemn her. Does it make sense to an adult? Nope. But she is not quite one yet. I remember the study that said our brains do not actually finish developing in the frontal area where good judgment occurs until the age of 25. Amen and btdt. I was ADD and my 6 yo is too, and we both cause(d) our parents "trust issues". 6yo lies and steals and generally violates every code of social acceptability and I wish I were more understanding of her sometimes. I've been in her shoes with the lack of self-control. And it is devestating to one's self-esteem. So the lies help build this alternate world where you can pretend to be able to do the wise things everyone around you does until you finally learn to do so yourself, through age, experience and wise guidance.

 

Hang tight. And I see that the lies are a big issue with you, but-I think it is time for them to not be. She wants to be good-we all do. At this point, love her and set boundaries as others have suggested, so she can screw up on her own dime-even that will give her relief. Some of her guilt has probably come from knowing it has usually been her screwing up on your dime.

 

:grouphug:

Lakota

[Joanne]

Someone already said this earlier in this thread, but please make sure you find someone who is at LEAST a psychologist, if not a psychiatrist. It is not that you will be trying to find a "diagnosis," it's just that, if there is one, no more time should be wasted in addressing it. An untrained person will not know what to look for. Your daughter, yourself, and your whole family deserve to have the BEST chance and working through all of this. There are many excellent psychologists who are very solid, committed Christians who will support your beliefs and involved God in every step you take.

 

Good luck. I certainly admire your openness to ideas here. :grouphug:

 

Licensed professional counselors are trained, educated, nationally tested and can identify and treat many DSM-IV disorders and diagnosis.

[EthiopianFood]

Licensed professional counselors are trained, educated, nationally tested and can identify and treat many DSM-IV disorders and diagnosis.

 

Some issues are harder to diagnose than others, and to the untrained eye, can resemble more common diagnoses. This doesn't sound like it is necessarily run-of-the-mill depression or anxiety.

[Joanne]

Some issues are harder to diagnose than others, and to the untrained eye, can resemble more common diagnoses. This doesn't sound like it is necessarily run-of-the-mill depression or anxiety.

 

Licensed Counselors are trained.

[Haiku]

I have a 15 yo dd that I can see in a similar situation when she reaches that age and driving. I'm a little surprised by all the remarks about giving her more freedom. She isn't adhereing to the current rules. No way would I give freedom to a dd that isn't already doing what is expected.

 

I think people are talking less about "freedom" and more about not micromanaging her life. She's 17.5 and has a job 40 minutes from home, and she is prohibited from stopping for fast food or a soda on the way home. She is not allowed to text after 10 pm. The things that have been written here make some of us think that the micromanaging has gotten out of hand and that the punishing is making the problem worse, not better.

 

The fact is, soon this "child" will no longer be a child (in fact, I don't think she is a child anymore, even if she is behaving immaturely), and it seems that all the punishing is damaging the relationship between the child and the parents. Sometimes people need to be allowed to freedom to fall on their faces as a wake-up call.

 

Tara

[lllll]

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Edited March 23, 2013 by 3kt68

[EthiopianFood]

Licensed Counselors are trained.

 

I meant untrained in recognizing less common diagnoses.

[EthiopianFood]

Obviously, all of us sin - Christian or not. Habitual lying is what I was referring to in my post. The Bible has plenty to say about lying as a way of life. (See a few of the verses below.)

 

My concern was that the op would not only take into account her dd's religious activities and verbal assurances as proof that her dd is saved; but that she would also take into account her dd's actions and heart. Jesus explained that all sin originates in the heart or mind of man. "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander."(Matthew 15:19). I have no idea whether her dd is saved or not. But if the dd continues in this pattern as a way of life, yes, I would indeed "wonder" whether she was ever saved to begin with. And the time for the parent to work on that is NOW, IMHO.

 

 

Romans 6 (English Standard Version)

 

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

 

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.

 

1 John 2:4, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

 

 

Revelation 21:8, "…and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:"

 

 

Revelation 21:27, "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."

 

 

Revelation 22:14-15, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are…whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

 

I know I'm not a part of this conversation, but I did want to point out that these verses explain exactly how someone CAN and WILL continue to sin, even after being saved. Paul is telling people not to keep sinning. If this came naturally after being saved, why in the world would he have to make a case as to why it is better to LIVE your new life, not just profess it? These verses talk about why it is better to live righteously, because they assume people need to be told so they can make better choices. There is no mention that, if someone doesn't make the wise choice, then they must not be saved in the first place.

[Laurie4b]

I meant untrained in recognizing less common diagnoses.

 

I disagree. Some of the worst therapists I've known were psychiatrists. Most of their training is about physical stuff; they have no more mental health training than other mental health professions. (There are good psychiatrists, too, but the title doesn't guarantee anything.)

 

While psychologists have gotten an economic monopoly on certain kinds of diagnostic testings (IQ tests for instance, though there is no earthly reason for this), they are not necessarily better diagnosticians than other mental health professionals.

 

Actually, for this situation, someone with an expertise in family therapy (noticing how one person's actions influence the others and how the system works to sustain everyone's behaviors) would probably be the best bet. The daughter does not sound mentally ill (though it's possible--it sounds unlikely).

[lllll]

..

[EthiopianFood]

So are you saying that as a Christian you cannot discern between a saved person and an unsaved person by observing their behavior over time?

 

I think Christians are just as human and stupid as everyone else. Put another way, grace and Jesus' blood "saves" you, i.e. allows you into heaven, but you still have to choose to accept his help in living uprightly. I don't think it's right to do whatever you want, just like Paul said, but that doesn't mean that some people don't seem to have a much harder time than others in changing their actions. How many thorns can one person have before they are labeled unsaved? I know we all have some. Who can know someone's heart other than God?

[lllll]

..

[Joanne]

We are still commanded to be discerning even though we are saved. Why else would the Bible contain verses like the following, to quote just a few? The assumption in all of these verses is that we have discerned (ie "labeled unsaved") another person to be "wicked" or a "scoffer" or a "sinner" or an "unbeliever", as stated in the Bible verses below. We are "to distinguish good from evil" as we go through life. And we are to teach our children to be discerning also.

 

 

 

We are actually told to be in humble kindness, lovingly searching for and enfolding lost sheep back into the flock. This is done with kindness, care and a meek spirit.

 

Matthew 18 speaks of the absolute need of child like humility when approaching and living with other believers and how not looking down upon the stumbling is paramount in the hearts of believers.

 

 

 

4What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

 

5"When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

 

6"And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'

 

7"I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

 

[EthiopianFood]

We are still commanded to be discerning even though we are saved. Why else would the Bible contain verses like the following, to quote just a few? The assumption in all of these verses is that we have discerned (ie "labeled unsaved") another person to be "wicked" or a "scoffer" or a "sinner" or an "unbeliever", as stated in the Bible verses below. We are "to distinguish good from evil" as we go through life. And we are to teach our children to be discerning also.

 

Psalms 1:1-2

1 Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers;

2 but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. ESV

 

1 Corinthians 15:33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals." ESV

 

Proverbs 4:14-15

14 Do not enter the path of the wicked, and do not walk in the way of the evil.

15 Avoid it; do not go on it; turn away from it and pass on. ESV

 

Job 21:16,18 The counsel of the wicked is far from me. … That they are like straw before the wind, and like chaff that the storm carries away? ESV

 

Proverbs 1:10 My son, if sinners entice you, do not consent. ESV

 

2 Corinthians 6:14 ESV

Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

 

1 John 4:1 ESV

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

 

Hebrews 4:12 ESV

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

 

Hebrews 5:14 ESV

But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

 

Yes, of course, but this doesn't mean that we can tell who is Christian and who isn't. If someone says they have accepted Jesus and Lord and Savior, then it isn't our business to decide that they haven't. That doesn't mean we say their bad behavior is good, or that we should be influenced by their bad choices. I think the last verse you listed makes my point. There are both mature and immature Christians. Christians who have maturity have it through "constant practice," not through salvation itself. And again, how many wicked things (and all sin is wicked, right?) can a person do before we know they cannot possibly be saved?

[lllll]

..

[EthiopianFood]

I disagree. Some of the worst therapists I've known were psychiatrists. Most of their training is about physical stuff; they have no more mental health training than other mental health professions. (There are good psychiatrists, too, but the title doesn't guarantee anything.)

 

While psychologists have gotten an economic monopoly on certain kinds of diagnostic testings (IQ tests for instance, though there is no earthly reason for this), they are not necessarily better diagnosticians than other mental health professionals.

 

Actually, for this situation, someone with an expertise in family therapy (noticing how one person's actions influence the others and how the system works to sustain everyone's behaviors) would probably be the best bet. The daughter does not sound mentally ill (though it's possible--it sounds unlikely).

 

I understand what you are saying. I most certainly agree that a label doesn't not a good therapist make. I would argue that a person cannot diagnose someone with something of which they have never heard. My own experience has taught me that general practicioners can be very unreliable when they are dealing with anything beyond the ordinary. I also don't agree that there aren't red flags concerning an illness on the part of the daughter, although there certainly isn't enough to assume anything. I would assume there ISN'T one, but if family counseling doesn't work, I would really hate for this family to have gone through all that work, only to feel like their situation is hopeless. It is very draining to try and get help from a counselor, and if it doesn't work the first time, many people will just give up. Also, when dealing with someone with an undiagnosed mental illness, it is all too easy to just assume they "aren't trying." I just think it would be easier to have someone who will be able to cover all the bases. At the very least, I sincerely hope they find someone who is familiar with ADHD, and addresses that issue and how it may impact the situation.

[EthiopianFood]

I think I'm going to call it quits. It seems we're talking past each other here. And it's way past my bedtime. Good night ladies.

 

Well, nice exchanging ideas with you anyway. :001_smile:

[Miss Sherry]

We do have heart-to-heart and adult privilege/responsibility kinds of conversations regularly. What we don't do enough is encourage and recognize tiny amts. of growth she shows. We're working on that and also on making the relationship the priority.

 

To the posts about "letting her have her age 17 freedoms". This is a girl who took Driver's Ed, is driving, has had her license since soon after 16yo, a car wreck, has had 2 jobs, took a college class for lifeguarding, was on swim team til she quit, has had a cell phone for a couple of years, did early enrollment at the CC last fall, took classes at the local public school, is now at a co op but we are not there. This is a girl who is getting lots of freedom opptys. We are trying to give her more freedoms - but she keeps ruining the chances.

 

And I know many posters have posed questions and I can't answer them all now - but the lying has always been a problem with this dtr. Dtr. def. wants to go to college, my dh and I have sugg. poss. a gap year for working and maturing. I don't think this dtr will leave home at 18yo. She is not a leader, but a follower. Dtr does pay the "extra" expenses such as ins. and cell phone.

 

My husband and I have been trying to give age-appropriate freedoms to this child and the damaged trust relationship has hindered us greatly.

 

And posters -= thank you. I realize when you (me) ask for advice on the internet, you need to be thick-skinned and do a lot of soul-searching on the answers. So I am def. thinking and praying about all of the advice.

 

And btw, counseling is def. going to happen. I will carefullly choose a Christian counselor who loves God's Word and the instruction given there.

 

Lisa

I wouldn't be so sure that she won't leave home at 18.One of the things that bothers me is, you expect her to tell you everything, yet you have not provided an environment in which it is "safe" for her to do so.She knows if she makes a mistake there will be a lot of drama, with you yelling.I think you are as much at fault for the sin of excessive anger and control, as she is for lying. If she is not given a little more breathing room, and doesn't need to stop feeling like if she fails at something (such as getting a D on a test) or be yelled at, than the only thing keeping her from leaving to have some emotional and psycological space, is not having an income to live on her own with. Which she could obtain with a full time, rather than part time job, and roommates.Also,girls like this do sometimes decide to get married when they are just 18. If she decides to leave, you cannot legally stop her. It doesn't make sense to tell her she can't drive through for a soda after work, even go to the library,when you know that in a few months she can move out and be completely out from under your rules.

I agree the lying is a problem. But you are only making the problem worse with the excessive control over every minute of her days.

You have put a lot of psycological stress on her with so much control on your part, she may feel so burdended by it, and want to move out just to breath.

 

Lying is not respectful. But then it is in response to a disrespectful level of control over someone who can legally leave in a few months.

 

You really have less than a couple of months to try to have a mutually respectful relationship with her or my guess is she's leaving the first chance she gets.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Miss Sherry

[Joanne]

I understand what you are saying. I most certainly agree that a label doesn't not a good therapist make. I would argue that a person cannot diagnose someone with something of which they have never heard. My own experience has taught me that general practicioners can be very unreliable when they are dealing with anything beyond the ordinary. I also don't agree that there aren't red flags concerning an illness on the part of the daughter, although there certainly isn't enough to assume anything. I would assume there ISN'T one, but if family counseling doesn't work, I would really hate for this family to have gone through all that work, only to feel like their situation is hopeless. It is very draining to try and get help from a counselor, and if it doesn't work the first time, many people will just give up. Also, when dealing with someone with an undiagnosed mental illness, it is all too easy to just assume they "aren't trying." I just think it would be easier to have someone who will be able to cover all the bases. At the very least, I sincerely hope they find someone who is familiar with ADHD, and addresses that issue and how it may impact the situation.

 

 

I guess my question to you, asked while I am quite literally studying the for midterms on the topic being discussed, is are you familiar with the training of licensed counselors? I can assure you that my training seems quite rigorous at the moment. :lol::D I'm studying plenty of "ordinary" and "out of ordinary" mental health issues.

 

I agree with the previous poster that the compulsive lying of the teen does not automatically red flag issues beyond the competency of any trained, tested and licensed counselor.

[EthiopianFood]

I guess my question to you, asked while I am quite literally studying the for midterms on the topic being discussed, is are you familiar with the training of licensed counselors? I can assure you that my training seems quite rigorous at the moment. :lol::D I'm studying plenty of "ordinary" and "out of ordinary" mental health issues.

 

I'm basing all of this on personal experience. I would assume that more years of study would equal more expertise. There are always exceptions (you're as stubborn as I am, from what I have observed, so I'm sure you will be one of them! :D). I don't really care anymore at this point. LOL I wish the OP well, I'm sure she'll choose whatever she feels is right for her situation.

 

 

I agree with the previous poster that the compulsive lying of the teen does not automatically red flag issues beyond the competency of any trained, tested and licensed counselor.

 

No, not automatically at all. I will admit that teenagers are certainly not my area of expertise, so I may be overreacting. :001_smile:

[Miss Sherry]

Can someone tell me what dtr stands for ?

[EthiopianFood]

Can someone tell me what dtr stands for ?

 

I assumed it was shorthand for "daughter."