Perry Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 What is the point of a group test? My dd returned to ps for 7th grade this year. I'm not a fan of all the group projects they're doing, but I can live with it. But the group test is a new one. Dd is a straight A student, and science is her best and favorite subject. A few days ago she came home upset because she had a group test in science with 3 other students, and she knew it was not going to turn out well. Let's just say the other 3 kids aren't stellar students. It was short answer, fill in the blank format, over NEW material. They were given a textbook and told to look up the answers. The teacher has told them in the past that it's more important that they know how to find information than actually learning the information. :confused: So the 4 kids each did a page. Dd's page was fine. The other 3 pages were not. The actual score is not a big deal- it's only 7th grade and it's only one score. But I can't for the life of me figure out why the teacher thinks this is a good idea. I'd like to email her but I'm not the most diplomatic communicator. Can you give me some ideas on how to approach this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgm Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 The purpose is to raise grades and to try to get students to work together and accomplish a goal. Long-term, it actually works out that study buddies will form and some unfocused students will learn to focus and get their work done. They learn to check each other's work too, before turning the papers in. I would worry about it only if it's going to drop her grade significantly - as in change her placement for next year. In that case, touch bases with the teacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 The purpose is to raise grades and to try to get students to work together and accomplish a goal. Long-term, it actually works out that study buddies will form and some unfocused students will learn to focus and get their work done. They learn to check each other's work too, before turning the papers in It may raise average grades but it will not raise OP's dd's grades. She had an A to start with. This plan, at best, will allow her to maintain her grades with great heartache and aggravation. By "study buddies" the teacher is expecting other 7th graders to do her job: teach the students (especially given that it was over new material and open book.) That is not fair to either the A students, who have to spend their time teaching while the "teacher" gets paid for it, or the other 7th graders, who can reasonably expect a qualified professional to teach them - not another kid. What the "study buddies" are learning is that they can mooch off somebody else and not get called out for cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 The purpose is to raise grades and to try to get students to work together and accomplish a goal. Long-term, it actually works out that study buddies will form and some unfocused students will learn to focus and get their work done. They learn to check each other's work too, before turning the papers in. I would worry about it only if it's going to drop her grade significantly - as in change her placement for next year. In that case, touch bases with the teacher. On a TEST? They do group projects constantly. IME, the kids DON'T work together. The good students do all the work, and the other students watch. The good students get annoyed and frustrated, and the poor students don't benefit in any way, except they get a higher grade than they deserve. If anything, it hurts the poorer students because they get a decent grade without doing any work or learning the material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammyla Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 :iagree: I've never heard of a group test. What a message the teacher is sending to the entire class. It may raise average grades but it will not raise OP's dd's grades. She had an A to start with. This plan, at best, will allow her to maintain her grades with great heartache and aggravation. By "study buddies" the teacher is expecting other 7th graders to do her job: teach the students (especially given that it was over new material and open book.) That is not fair to either the A students, who have to spend their time teaching while the "teacher" gets paid for it, or the other 7th graders, who can reasonably expect a qualified professional to teach them - not another kid. What the "study buddies" are learning is that they can mooch off somebody else and not get called out for cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 (edited) Dh has assignments like this in grad school all the time! I am often up late at night editing the drivel that is emailed to us as the submissions from his other group members. Ugh! (And these people are teaching children.) Dh always volunteers to "put it all together," so that we can run quality control. It is a life lesson, though. Our lives will always be affected by the abilities, or lack thereof, of those around us. But in this specific instance, this is NOT OKAY. They are not learning group work skills, because they each did their own page. There was no reason for the test to be structured this way, and I would talk to the teacher. And I'm not a "talk to the teacher about it" kind of person. :001_smile: Edited December 18, 2009 by angela in ohio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 It may raise average grades but it will not raise OP's dd's grades. She had an A to start with. This plan, at best, will allow her to maintain her grades with great heartache and aggravation. By "study buddies" the teacher is expecting other 7th graders to do her job: teach the students (especially given that it was over new material and open book.) That is not fair to either the A students, who have to spend their time teaching while the "teacher" gets paid for it, or the other 7th graders, who can reasonably expect a qualified professional to teach them - not another kid. What the "study buddies" are learning is that they can mooch off somebody else and not get called out for cheating. :iagree: Which starts me on another hread topic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jujsky Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 It may raise average grades but it will not raise OP's dd's grades. She had an A to start with. This plan, at best, will allow her to maintain her grades with great heartache and aggravation. By "study buddies" the teacher is expecting other 7th graders to do her job: teach the students (especially given that it was over new material and open book.) That is not fair to either the A students, who have to spend their time teaching while the "teacher" gets paid for it, or the other 7th graders, who can reasonably expect a qualified professional to teach them - not another kid. What the "study buddies" are learning is that they can mooch off somebody else and not get called out for cheating. :iagree: I would write out what you want to say to the teacher, have someone diplomatic read it and give you suggestions, and then I would set up a meeting with the teacher. You have every reason to be concerned about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgm Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 (edited) My experience with two middle schoolers running an above 95 average is that the teacher knows that it won't affect the grade significantly to pair them with some salvageable students on a project, classwork or test. Generally there are a lot of bonus or extra credit opportunities which make up for the low grade, or the teacher does the hand wave and the quarter grade is not impaired. It's not stressful to the student at all, as the average is not rocked significantly: 9 100s and 1 70 on the academics, a 100 on class participation and a 100 on homeowrk still gets the kiddo a 99 average before bonuses/extra credit. In your case, since there are a lot of group projects, you need to ask what the grading scheme is and how your child's placement will be affected by the partners acheivement. Most of the group projects are not there for the 'high' student to learn academics; they are there for learning communication and other people skills that you'll find listed if you google 'middle school model'. Edited December 18, 2009 by lgm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 they are there for learning communication and other people skills that you'll find listed if you google 'middle school model'. How effective is that, do you think? I don't see that my dd's communication skills are improving. I do see her becoming resentful, irritated, frustrated, and bored. Meanwhile, she isn't learning much science. And the communication skills of the other kids aren't improving. They're goofing off while my dd does all the work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 How effective is that, do you think? I don't see that my dd's communication skills are improving. I do see her becoming resentful, irritated, frustrated, and bored. Meanwhile, she isn't learning much science. Isn't there a section in Animal Farm that illustrates this is an effective tool? An education in conformity despite resentment. Knowing it doesn't achieve any meaningful goal, but too uneducated to do anything about it.:001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 Isn't there a section in Animal Farm that illustrates this is an effective tool? An education in conformity despite resentment. Knowing it doesn't achieve any meaningful goal, but too uneducated to do anything about it.:001_huh:I'm going to have to read that again. Thanks for the reminder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty in Pink Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 What a bunch of garbage this is. Seriously. The teacher needs to do his/her job and teach the subject. The students need to do their own work. I remember doing group projects in school. Yes, they certainly are stressful on the 'good' students. Why is it fair for the 'good' students' grades to suffer (even by a point)? Why should they have to do extra credit to bring their average back up if they want to get the grade that they deserve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgm Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 (edited) How effective is that, do you think? I don't see that my dd's communication skills are improving. I do see her becoming resentful, irritated, frustrated, and bored. Meanwhile, she isn't learning much science. . About 10% IME seem to learn to effectively work together. The rest are not interested in school, cannot read well enough to function in the classroom, have LDs that their personal aides cannot help them overcome in time to participate well, or they are cutthroat competitors and really should move on. I take it this is not an honors class where collaboration is encouraged? And the communication skills of the other kids aren't improving. They're goofing off while my dd does all the work. That is her choice. She has other options in the short term and in the long term. My one kid didn't have to do any extra credit...there was enough bonus built in that his average was over 100...so it's not as if he had to do anything extra other than learn how to get people to listen to him - which is an excellent life skill. My other kid learned that if someone steals the project, you really need to have backup plan - another good life skill. As far as public middle school being for academics.....where is the smilie for ROFL...afterschooling is where it's at until honors starts. Edited December 18, 2009 by lgm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I would definitely write a letter to the teacher explaining all of your concerns and misgivings. If there was no response by the end of the next day, I would contact the principal. This is rediculous. They have not learned how to find information, they were given a book with all the answers. Finding information means sending them to the library. How anyone else's grade, in this situation, should effect another's is a mystery to me. Were they all taking different tests? That was the impression I got from your initial post. If they were all the same, then what is being learned here? If you let your co-workers cheat, at least you all look good? It's one thing if the teacher had given them positions (you're the supervisor, you're the whatever, you're the blahblahblah), but you can't expect a child to take up leadership reigns among a group, not of her own choosing, especially when you pair her with people you KNOW are not going to do the work (I have no doubt the teacher knew exactly what they were doing). The goal here was to raise the grades of layabouts, by sacrificing the grades of those that excell. Wonderful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 I take it this is not an honors class where collaboration is encouraged? We don't have honors classes in our middle school. She is in the TAG program, but that is only for one class per year (Science in 6th grade, Reading in 7th and Social Studies in 8th). They do a few group projects in TAG (not many), but they are well thought out and the students actually work together and learn something from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 Were they all taking different tests? That was the impression I got from your initial post. Sorry that wasn't clear. It was one test, 4 pages long. The kids were supposed to decide how to divvy up the work. They decided to each do a page (my dd apparently did 2 pages, although I'm not entirely clear on the details.) Each group had the same test. The other 3 kids didn't even finish their pages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Katia Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 That is her choice. She has other options in the short term and in the long term. It's her choice that the others are goofing off? What you are saying in this thread is not making any sense to me at all. Group projects are bad enough, but group tests.......never heard of them and never want to. No wonder the public education system is so........so......in dire need of revamping. This is a sad, sad thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie in AR Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 That is her choice. She has other options in the short term and in the long term. What exactly would those other options be? For her to decide she's not going to do any of the work, either, if her *team-mates* won't work, and then being forced to accept a failing grade on the project? That isn't much of a choice for a dedicated student. I detested group projects in school. I think a group test would have sent me over the edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgm Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 So a good student is just a cutthroat competitor if they don't enjoy being pooped on by fellow classmates? Strange line of reasoning. That's not what I said, but if that's how you want to reason and the images you like to place in other people's minds, it's your perogative. I'll exit the discussion now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie in AR Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I'd like to email her but I'm not the most diplomatic communicator. Can you give me some ideas on how to approach this? E-mail would be the way I would approach it. That way you can take a few deep breaths after your initial writing while you clear your head for editing. I would not be able to communicate diplomatically in person in this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partyof5 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I'd like to email her but I'm not the most diplomatic communicator. Can you give me some ideas on how to approach this? I'm so sorry to hear this is happening...and I'm honestly outraged on your behalf! This stuff just gets me. There was no collaboration on this test, nor should there be on a "test" of any kind. A test is used to evaluate what a student has learned, what needs to be re-taught, etc. so I can't imagine what kind of useless data the teacher now has...what on earth is her plan?? :glare: If you're not feeling diplomatic in your email attempt, have a friend proof it before hitting send, but waste no time in getting it sent, especially with school breaks beginning next week! Wishing you all the best, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 On a TEST? They do group projects constantly. IME, the kids DON'T work together. The good students do all the work, and the other students watch. The good students get annoyed and frustrated, and the poor students don't benefit in any way, except they get a higher grade than they deserve. If anything, it hurts the poorer students because they get a decent grade without doing any work or learning the material. Our school has gone to this as well. I've never seen it work the way it is supposed to and always have seen what you mention above. When our school switched TO this method, we switched TO homeschooling. My kids far outperform their peers on standardized tests, so it's worth it for us. I feel sorry for the kids who have to do all the work for the others in order to get a decent grade. I also feel sorry for those that THINK they get an A or B and know essentially nothing. It shows up in the individual tests, but curves still give them decent grades so they can keep passing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 It's not stressful to the student at all, as the average is not rocked significantly: 9 100s and 1 70 on the academics, a 100 on class participation and a 100 on homeowrk still gets the kiddo a 99 average before bonuses/extra credit. It is definitely stressful for a dedicated student to get a 70 on a test, even if it averages out to a 99. It sounds like the goal is to get them to stop trying and not care either, so they don't get stressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 It is definitely stressful for a dedicated student to get a 70 on a test, even if it averages out to a 99. It sounds like the goal is to get them to stop trying and not care either, so they don't get stressed. Yep. That's what I did. I knew it wouldn't hurt my grade enough to worry about to completely remove myself from the situation. I think grading for participation is lame too. Either they learned the material or they didn't. Either they did the work or they didn't. And it sure isn't real world work prep to suggest you'll be judge for participation either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 What exactly would those other options be? For her to decide she's not going to do any of the work, either, if her *team-mates* won't work, and then being forced to accept a failing grade on the project? That isn't much of a choice for a dedicated student. I detested group projects in school. I think a group test would have sent me over the edge. The only time I learned anything in this sort of setting was when half of the assignment was writing a paper on the group dynamic, what the shortcomings were, what good points there were, and how this situations could have been better. Those group assignments were actually somewhat useful and the project grade itself was only a small part of the overral grade for that assignment. Sorry that wasn't clear. It was one test, 4 pages long. The kids were supposed to decide how to divvy up the work. They decided to each do a page (my dd apparently did 2 pages, although I'm not entirely clear on the details.) Each group had the same test. The other 3 kids didn't even finish their pages. For the first time ever, I have to wish they would have graded based on participation. I normally think that's rediculous, but in this case, your dd's grade should have had a bonus for having actually done the work. Did the teacher even offer anything in the realm of discussion for how it all worked out, did she open the floor for questions (what do you do if one partner refuses to work)? Maybe that would be a good approach? Asking the teacher to examine how this situation worked out with the students. IOW, if you're going to try to teach life skills then finish the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara R Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 It is definitely stressful for a dedicated student to get a 70 on a test, even if it averages out to a 99. Absolutely. Dedicated students are that way because they do care, sometimes irrationally so. I remember bursting out into tears in 6th grade when I approached a teacher to get some blue note they sent home for getting a good grade on a test. The students in front of me in line were getting the yellow notes home for bad grades, and the teacher assumed I was one of "them" lol. I couldn't take it. I have a son with the same characteristics. I have learned that this is typical of gifted children. They are going to care. And they should care. If the school convinced students that grades were unimportant, the school would have lost a powerful motivating tool that it needs to get kids to succeed. Plus, even a point lower on a grade can make a difference when you are at the top in high school. It's not just about GPA; it's about class rank and who is valedictorian. It's one thing if you do your best and you aren't at the top. It's quite another thing if the reason you aren't at the top is because, during group projects, you were unfairly graded on your peer's work (or lack of work). It's unfair, and teens really care about fairness. Sure, life isn't fair, but why introduce unfairness into the system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara R Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 The purpose is to raise grades and to try to get students to work together and accomplish a goal. Long-term, it actually works out that study buddies will form and some unfocused students will learn to focus and get their work done. They learn to check each other's work too, before turning the papers in. That's the idea, but it never works out that way. Has anyone else ever read picture book The Rainbow Fish by Marcus Pfister? One Rainbow Fish has all of these beautifully colored fins. The other fish are jealous and don't want to play with him. He is sad that he doesn't have friends. Someone hits upon the idea that he should rip off his pretty fins and pass them out to the others. He doesn't want to do this at first, but eventually he does, and they all live happily, equally ever after. This book was big when I went to ed school in the late 90s. Somehow the teachers thought it was inspirational. The powers that be that come up with these ideas think of talented students like this Rainbow Fish. They should share those talents! The problem is that you can't just rip off talents like pretty fins and hand them out to your classmates. Somehow they think that by working together those talents will magically rub off on the less talented students. It doesn't work. Talent isn't like money. You can take money from someone and give it to another person; we call that communism, right? But talent isn't transferable. The powers that be look at the unequal results in education, and assume that it is somehow the fault of the bright kids for not sharing their pretty rainbow fins. And so they create group projects like this. I've got one child who has really struggled to learn to read, do math, and spell. My other child is very bright and picks things up quickly. Children who struggle do not benefit from group work with bright students. Children who struggle need to practice on their own level until they understand it, and then move on. Children learn in the "zone of proximal development," where they can learn the next thing with support. If they are learning something too hard, they struggle, drown, believe that they are stupid, and give up. If they are learning something too easy, it is boring and they tune out. If you mix up heterogenous group together, they aren't going to learn as much as they would in separate ability groups, because they will not all be in the same zone of proximal development. The bright and hard working ones learn to resent those who aren't as talented, and the ones who struggle or are lazy learn to let someone else do their work. The (educationally) rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and the intended effect isn't accomplished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChemMommy Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Some profs give group exams. I've even seen one prof decrease a group's exam score because there were too many smart people in that group compared to the other groups and so, in that prof's reasoning, it wasn't fair to give the group of smart kids a higher score, even if they earned it. HUH!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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