Is there any Christian denomination that has never

[rookie]

mere individuals or small groups who sometimes acted with hatred towards Jews but rather a systematic persecution of Jews in every area of their lives by entire "Christian" communities following the Church Leaders' directions.

 

This form of hatred has not played itself out in the same way as others. What other group has been persecuted for longer throughout history? What other group has faced hatred everywhere that they went? What other group has been systematically murdered and abused or at least discriminated against around the world? THe reason we are horrified by the Holocaust is because of the great evil that systematized the hate and death of the Jews.

 

No one is saying that Christians don't sin. Obviously they do. I am bringing up that people foundational to the different forms of Christianity and who greatly influenced Christianity's development were commiting a SIN and kept on commiting it without repentance and encouraged others to commit it and they did not feel the need to repent of it and then they taught their children to commit the sin and did not repent of it either. THis has gone on and on and on.

 

I want to know did ANY Christian group stand up and SAY: IT IS A SIN TO PERSECUTE JEWS. IT GOES AGAINST GOD AND WE ARE WILLING TO BE MARTYRED TO PROTECT THEM! Was anyone going against the status quo. There have been very, very few Christians who ever did the right thing on this issue. It is a sin that was mostly swept under the rug. Even the vague apologies have not been fully repentant.

 

And, if we are to carry Adam's original sin with us even today, it's a little hypoctitical to say well "That was Christianity long ago.... we're not those kinds of Christians now. " Would you - as a Christian - defend Jews today if they faced another round of persecution? Or would you watch and call yourself a Christian.

 

I think that we are free to ask our own questions on this board. Mine continues to be this: WHO/WHICH Christian denomination (ancient or recent) and/or Christian Leader DID NOT participate in anti-semitism or preach against the Jews or insist on their conversion? WHO/WHICH denounced anti-semitism and defended the Jews.

 

I am willing to hear of historical Christian groups who stood up the the Churches who were doing wrong.

 

Why can't I ask that? I want to know.

 

Thank you for the persons who have posted possible exceptions like the Quakers and JW. I will research that to see what I find.

 

I don't see why we can't question things. I am so glad to be an American and love my country. That does not stop me from looking, deeply, at the ugly parts of our history and thinking about how I am affected by that and what responsibility lies with me TODAY because of our PAST. People have been hurt for generations. Take slavery. THe Quakers DID DO something against this heinous crime even though a bunch of church-going Christians both North and South did nothing or actually kept slaves. The QUAKERS stood up and did not participate in a sin that was in vogue amongst the Christians of the time. Entire sermons were preached on the righteousness of slavery - straight from Scripture.

 

What Christians have stood against anti-semitism they way Quakers stood against slavery? (Is that a better question?)

[Jean in Newcastle]

What Christians have stood against anti-semitism they way Quakers stood against slavery? (Is that a better question?)

 

Yes, that is a better question. But the answer isn't as easy as you want it to be when you look at history.

 

During the Spanish inquisition, (and I'm not an expert on this) I understand that many protestant Christians were also persecuted. I'm sure there were occasions when some Christians (both Catholic or Protestants) helped the Jews but they didn't stand up with a placard to do so.

 

During the Holocaust we do know of Christians who helped to hide the Jews (as well as non-Christians who helped them too). But in Nazi Germany they had to be secretive and so did not come out and advertise their stance - even in a church service.

 

I understand that the Quakers were secretive as to their actual physical helping of slaves but they were able to be outspoken as to their stance on slavery itself.

[Dawn E]

I will admit that I am still uncertain at what you are wanting to find, but here is an interesting and well-sourced article I found on the subject. It was written by Rabbi David Rosen who once served as the director of the Anti-Defamation League’s Israel Office. Obviously it is written from a Jewish point of view and it addresses the current state of affairs more so than those of the past. Still it seems relevant to your search.

 

From the article:

 

Arguably, though, the watershed in the transformation of Christian teaching about Jews and Judaism, dismantling the theological bases for anti-Judaism and anti-Semitism, came with the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council convened by Pope John XXIII. That Council issued the historic declaration known by its first words "Nostra Aetate," which asserted that any attempt to present the Jews as collectively guilty for the death of Jesus of Nazareth at the time, let alone subsequently, is wrong and against what was upheld to be true Christian teaching. Moreover, the declaration affirmed that the Divine Covenant with the Jewish people is eternal and unbroken and that it is therefore wrong to present the Jewish people as rejected, let alone cursed by the Almighty, or to suggest that it has been replaced by the Church. The statement further condemned anti-Semitism as sinful. >sup>5 After Nostra Aetate there were many other notable documents, such as the 1975 "Guidelines"; the 1985 "Notes"; the 1998 document on "The Church and Racism," which not only gave a detailed condemnation of anti-Semitism but also denounced "the anti-Zionism that often serves as a vehicle for anti-Semitism"; the declaration on the Shoah, "We Remember"; and the most recent document on "The Jewish People and Their Sacred Scriptures."

Protestant denominations cannot be compared in structure and authority to the Catholic Church, for better and worse. Accordingly, the transformation may not appear quite as striking. Nevertheless, similar processes have taken place among mainline Protestant denominations; particularly notable has been the courageous and categorical repudiation of Luther's anti-Semitism by the Lutheran Church.7 The extent of this transformation within the Protestant churches is powerfully evident in a declaration of the Leuenberg Church Fellowship, a network encompassing the majority of Protestant churches in Europe. In 2001 it issued an extensive document entitled "Church and Israel." Among other things, this document "confesses the guilt [of the churches] towards Israel for their share in the Shoah in different ways" and declares their commitment to change and rectify the causes and sources of that guilt. It affirms the unique bond with the Jewish people as "an indispensable part of the Foundation of [Christian] Faith," but arguably most notable of all, it proposes that "the Churches [should] refrain from any activity directed specifically to converting Jews to Christianity."

[Renee in NC]

rookie, let's go with the supposition that your position is right - that no Christian group has stood against anti-Semitism and all groups have been anti-Semitic at some point. Or that there have been a few exceptions, but not many.

 

Okay, you are right. Now what? What's the point of asking the question? What do you hope to achieve? What can we do about it now?

 

You obviously feel very strongly about the problem, so I imagine you also feel very strongly about a solution.

[Nan in Mass]

Universalist? Perhaps? I'm fuzzy on the history here, though.

[HRAAB]

Off the top of my head I would say maybe Quakers or Jehova Witnesses???

 

Antisemitism was part of the culture in Christian Europe, whether Catholic or Protestant. To suggest that Catholics or leaders of the Catholic Church were not anti semitic is ridiculous and not at all helpful in our attempt to actually become Christ like. To ignore past sins is embarrassing. I believe it's necessary to admit to our wrongs, and then move forward. People were imperfect and are still imperfect. We need to keep pursuing holiness; the race isn't over.

[Jean in Newcastle]

If you want modern day Christians who stand against anti-semistism look for a magazine called "Israel, My Glory". I will not link to their website because it would be against board rules but they are pro Israel and pro Jew. They are also pro witnessing to Jews so by one PP's definition they would be considered anti-semitic. Many of the contributors to the magazine are Jewish Christians so they obviously would disagree as to that assessment.

[Sputterduck]

I want to know did ANY Christian group stand up and SAY: IT IS A SIN TO PERSECUTE JEWS. IT GOES AGAINST GOD AND WE ARE WILLING TO BE MARTYRED TO PROTECT THEM!

 

Yes. There is a group who did that. JWs did. They opposed Hitler from the start and were thrown in concentration camps alongside Jews and disabled Germans.

 

Every Christian who's values I know think that the Jews are God's people and wouldn't dare do a thing against them because they are his special chosen people. They also think that is exactly *why* Jews have been persecuted consistently for ages. Satan bends the world against them because they are so special to God.

 

 

 

edit: lol I should have finished your post before I responded. Apparently someone else mentioned the JWs, too.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Sputterduck

[Peek a Boo]

What other group has been persecuted for longer throughout history? What other group has faced hatred everywhere that they went? What other group has been systematically murdered and abused or at least discriminated against around the world?

women and children?

we kill the unborn for convenience by the millions. legally. and fight for the right to continue to do so.

 

 

I want to know did ANY Christian group stand up and SAY: IT IS A SIN TO PERSECUTE JEWS. IT GOES AGAINST GOD AND WE ARE WILLING TO BE MARTYRED TO PROTECT THEM! Was anyone going against the status quo. There have been very, very few Christians who ever did the right thing on this issue. It is a sin that was mostly swept under the rug. Even the vague apologies have not been fully repentant.

 

 

as a PP mentioned about the Quakers, there is a valid reason to NOT be vocally martyred for this. The Hebrew midwives were an excellent example. Sometimes you can save more people by acting quietly.

 

I would also be very hesitant to decide just who is/was "fully repentant" and who isn't.

 

You are absolutely welcome to ask the question, but don't be surprised when some think your question lacks a certain depth.

 

and yes, i realize that "the Jews" as an entire nation weren't ultimately responsible for Christ's death, but their involvement as a group via some of their leadership is critical and undeniable. Sure, it could have been any other group.

But it wasn't.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Peek a Boo

[rookie]

I would argue that the Jews were not responsible for the death of Jesus. The responsibility lies in the SIN of all people. Those particular people may have called for his death, the Romans may have carried it out, but it was destined since the beginning of time.

 

It could have been Celtics and the Aztecs and it wouldn't have changed a thing.

 

 

You cannot claim to believe that Christ died for our sins and then say, but the Jews killed him. NO. You killed him. I killed him. All of the nations killed him. If he HAD to die to save us then his plan had to be physically carried out some where in the world by some group of people. Those people would have had to turn against him or his plan would not have been. That's why I said in my original post that it could have been the Japanese.

 

 

 

Thank you for your post.

[Sputterduck]

And, if we are to carry Adam's original sin with us even today, it's a little hypoctitical to say well "That was Christianity long ago.... we're not those kinds of Christians now. " Would you - as a Christian - defend Jews today if they faced another round of persecution? Or would you watch and call yourself a Christian.

 

I would. I wouldn't even hesitate. But then again, I'm one of those Christians who actually does something with her faith. I also have no problem speaking up when someone is doing something heinous. I would hope that most Christians would.

 

You seem to be on a path of judgment and almost hatred. Who are you to assume that a Christian wouldn't do something? It may be safe to assume that some Christians wouldn't react. It's mean to assume something about any particular individual or a group as a whole, though.

 

I think that we are free to ask our own questions on this board. Mine continues to be this: WHO/WHICH Christian denomination (ancient or recent) and/or Christian Leader DID NOT participate in anti-semitism or preach against the Jews or insist on their conversion? WHO/WHICH denounced anti-semitism and defended the Jews.

 

 

Since there are wolves in every part of Christianity, you can't blame the actions of the few on the many. It's unfair. Blame it on the wolves themselves, not the group they've infiltrated. Don't judge me by the actions of an other person. If a small few in a denomination are anti-semitic, that does not mean the denomination itself is messed up.

 

You want to know of any Christian leader who has not participated in anti-semitism? That's easy. Every pastor and lay leader I've ever known. Every. single. church I've been to considers the Jewish people a special people singled out for God. I've been to non-denominational and Baptist churches and JW kingdom halls.

[lovemyboys]

You will not find a perfect church because people are not perfect. You will find racist and predjudiced people in likely every Christian church you want to look at. Do churches condone this? Not any I know of except those connected with extremist groups. But it still happens. I believe it happens because of the lies of Satan and the willingness of us humans to be deceived into that awful way of thinking.

 

Not just Christians are anti-Jew. Muslims who share the same father in Abraham are also known, in a general sense, for being against Jews just as they are against Christians.

 

Yes. Even the word "semite" comes from their common heritage. Interesting that modern-day Islamic politics are often so anti-Jewish/anti-Israel.

 

Anti-semitism, sadly, is still alive and "well," even in the US. It is more often cloaked in a "soft-racism" than in anything overt.

 

I've thought about this quite a bit, and I do believe it is just part of their lot in life -- and I don't mean that lightly. Hebrews have been set apart from their earliest days when Abraham left civilization to be with God. It is a beautiful and awe-inspiring story, to be God's chosen to the end of time.

 

In my experience, many Christians today embrace this deep heritage.

 

Certainly in the past, Jesus's death was an ugly dividing line and the source of much hate. There's no denying that it was the action of the Jewish leadership that Jesus was brought before Pilate. But that was part of what had to happen, Jesus was a revolutionary who threatened the authority of the Hebrews as well as the Romans. He died to save all of us.

 

I would wager that after the diaspora, Jews in the world found anti-semitism in "civilian" populations as well as in other religions. Holding themselves apart, precious to God, has those consequences. But just as with Daniel's case, it also has its own unique rewards.

 

Trying to single out any one religion, denomination or organization as being without this sin seems to me to be futile. I can't imagine how any one would know. And who knows how God views these things. For all we know, the worst offenders in His sight could be the neutral parties who stand aside and do nothing....? (I don't mean, actively be ugly and anti-semitic -- I mean don't get involved in the tough issues of life.)

 

jmthoughts

[unsinkable]

Have you heard St. Maximilian Kolbe?

 

He was sent to a concentration camp because he was hiding Jewish people. Then he volunteered to be executed in place of a farmer b/c the farmer had a wife and children.

 

/sarcasm on

 

St. Kolbe must not have got the persecute and hate memo the rest of us Catholics did.

 

/sarcasm off

[Dawn E]

An informative article from the website of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum on one of the few church leaders to stand against the Nazi regime:

 

Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Edited December 5, 2009 by Dawn E

[gsanmb]

I hesitate to get involved in this discussion, because as an Orthodox Jew (whom Alpidarko will recognize from another board) my perspective will be fundamentally and wholly at odds with many here.

 

Peek-a-Boo, as not only a Jew but also as a political historian (yes, professionally) I have to ask ... do you really understand what the reality was in lands under Roman rule during Jesus' lifetime? The repression, oppression, fear, and persecution that subject populations lived under?

 

I *get* that your scriptures paint a dastardly picture of the Jews of the time -- certainly they have been used as a pretext for the last two thousand plus years to commit murder, mayhem, and plunder against Jewish communities (especially during the Easter season). However, Jews did not have the political power to decide capital cases under Roman rule. Were Jewish leaders possibly responsible for acting to contain the influence of Jesus during that period, even reporting him to the Romans as seditious? Possibly -- because they also bore the responsibility for keeping the peace in Jerusalem at a time when the city's population expanded nearly ten-fold during the Passover holiday, and when said population was already restless and the murmurings of a nascent rebellion was at hand. Jewish leaders who knew that any outbreak of protest could lead to the trampling and leveling of the city in a day by Roman centurions probably were concerned by a man who bore with him people interested in stirring up controversy (i.e. activities in the Temple -- the center of life in Jerusalem).

 

Whatever. Now that I"m writing this out, it seems pointless. We've been defending ourselves against this for 2,000 years and it's a bit ridiculous at this juncture. Sigh.

 

To the poster who claimed the Catholic Church has never been anti-Semitic, all I can do is hold my head in my hands with shock and awe. My students call my semester on Medieval Jewish History the 'semester of blood and gore' because we cover the Crusades (over a million Jews in Europe dead in the drive to 'liberate' Jerusalem) and the period of the Inquisition (spans several centuries, and not limited to Spain although that is where it was most intense), as well as the various expulsions (nearly every nation in Europe, including England) and random massacres and pogroms. Many of these were motivated mostly by political and economic interests, but craven leaders used anti-Semitism as a particularly effective tool of mobilization among the populace because Jew- hatred was, and is, entrenched, intransigent, and spans not only political borders but economic and social ones as well.

 

Whether there is one particular Christian denomination that has not been party to the persecution of Jews over the centuries is not well known to me -- at least in the U.S. I do know that Quakers were the only ones that allowed Jews to settle in the colonies they adjudicated, during Colonial times. Jew-hatred is still an endemic problem even in this country, although it is cloaked in a veneer of 'civility' in a way that has never been the case in Europe.

 

However, unlike in other parts of the world, most Americans have come to understand, at least on a surface level, that Jew-hatred and anti-Semitism are not socially (or for many, religiously) acceptable. And, certainly, those groups who are actively pro-Israel and recognize the Jews as a people worthy of respect in all ways (this includes not proselytizing) are groups Jews have come to see as allies and hopefully, friends.

 

I think it is difficult for Christians who feel deeply about their mission to spread their faith to understand how fundamentally offensive it is when they proselytize Jews. If you are a member of a persecuted minority for whom there is never a sense of total security (many families, mine included -- my grandparents were Holocaust survivors -- still get their children passports soon after birth ... just in case). And there is a knowledge that others view you (Jews) as deficient, lacking clarity, and defective. Coupled with a history where frequently we were called upon to die for our faith (or be exiled, or whatever), *any* confrontation which calls into question our commitment to G-d is offensive and threatening.

 

I don't really know how to explain this, because most of you will never experience that reality.

 

Even things like the past LDS practice of 'posthumous baptism' of Jews from rolls of names of Holocaust survivors -- something which, in essence, has no import for us whatsoever -- is extremely offensive and off-putting.

 

Look, the reality is that Christianity is a supercessionist religion, meaning that it takes the position (theoretically no matter what the denomination) that it represents The Way and The Truth and nothing else which came before or after is valid any longer. For Christianity to be true, G-d's own words in the Torah must not be true (for He tells us many times in the Torah that He will never change his covenant with the Jewish people and the relationship is eternal and unchanging), and Judaism must be wrong. No matter how friendly the conversation, a Jew understands this is at the basis of a Christian attempt to missionize. We don't believe G-d ever changes His mind.

 

So from our perspective, if a Christian denomination takes the position that it is The Way and The Truth for *its* people, then great -- and even more so if it takes a 'laissez-faire' or even friendly attitude to the Jews and the Jewish nation (yes, there really is such a thing, and it transcends political boundaries).

 

And when Alpidarko says "leave us alone to do our thing" she means religiously, politically (because yes, we do have a right to that also), and in every other way.

[Lovedtodeath]

because I have been doing some reading and am really shocked and horrified at the persecution that Jews suffered at the hands of both Protestant and Catholic Christians througout history and of the openly encouraged anti-semitism that continued even after WWII.

I did not read past this post. Jehovah's Witnesses were around during WWII and refused to have any part in it. As a result, they were persecuted as well. Just in case you go searching, I will tell you that their only official website is watchtower.org. I had a friend in school who belonged to another religion and she told me that the same applied to her. I don't remember what it was though. (It was over 25 years ago.) Here is information about Jehovah's Witnesses from another thread:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pamela H in Texas

I don't know if it's been mentioned (as I have seen it on other such threads), but....

 

There were other populations involved in the holocaust that sometimes get overlooked. I don't have resources on all of them, of course, but I would like to share a couple ideas.

 

There is a video called Jehovah's Witnesses STAND FIRM Against Nazi Assault (the Stand Firm is the big words on the box). I know you could ask a Witness to borrow it or order it (donation of your choice) at a Kingdom Hall.

 

Pamela, I want to extend my deepest thanks for bringing this beautiful and important film to my attention.

 

While I was aware that many Jehovah's Witnesses perished in the camps, this film brought to life the courage the Witnesses showed in the face of evil and deepened my understanding in a very profound way. I just finished watching the film, I'm deeply moved.

 

I strongly recommend any person of good-will whose interested in the power of the human spirit to strand firm in the face of evil watch this film. It is very inspiring.

 

Thanks again Pamela.

 

Bill

 

An online copy can be found at:

 

http://ia311332.us.archive.org/3/ite...aziAssault.mov

__________________

Edited December 5, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Sputterduck]

I *get* that your scriptures paint a dastardly picture of the Jews of the time

 

But it doesn't. It paints a wonderful picture of a few and it paints a dastardly picture of a few. Most Jews of the time are not mentioned at all.

[TXMomof4]

 

Look, the reality is that Christianity is a supercessionist religion, meaning that it takes the position (theoretically no matter what the denomination) that it represents The Way and The Truth and nothing else which came before or after is valid any longer. For Christianity to be true, G-d's own words in the Torah must not be true (for He tells us many times in the Torah that He will never change his covenant with the Jewish people and the relationship is eternal and unchanging), and Judaism must be wrong. No matter how friendly the conversation, a Jew understands this is at the basis of a Christian attempt to missionize. We don't believe G-d ever changes His mind.

 

So from our perspective, if a Christian denomination takes the position that it is The Way and The Truth for *its* people, then great -- and even more so if it takes a 'laissez-faire' or even friendly attitude to the Jews and the Jewish nation (yes, there really is such a thing, and it transcends political boundaries).

 

And when Alpidarko says "leave us alone to do our thing" she means religiously, politically (because yes, we do have a right to that also), and in every other way.

 

Judaism doesn't have to be wrong. Again, I'm going to reference Romans 11. The whole chapter is about the fact that without the Jews leading the way, there would be no Christianity. We owe our entire history to the fact that God revealed himself to the Jews and gave them the Law - so he could fulfill that law through Christ.

 

I also think it's a little funny that when a "christian" commits some awful sin - murder, child molesting, fill in the blank with something really evil - we are quick to say he must not truly have been a christian. However, when the Jewish leaders called for the execution of Jesus we claim all Jews are responsible for their actions. I think Jesus himself called attention to the fact that those leaders had missed the point of faith entirely. The Jewish nation is no more 'responsible' for the death of Jesus than the American nation is responsible for the individual evil acts committed here on a daily basis. And besides all that - bring it all down to brass tacks and God made the decision to reconcile us to him through his son's death. If the mechanism for that was the Jews, the Romans, whoever - it was God's decision to do it.