Question about my 5yo dd

[amygabrielle]

So I'm at a loss and kinda frustrated. We started kindy this year. Just the basics- Saxon math 1, and handwriting. Dd hasn't been into reading and was really fighting it, so I backed off. She LOVES handwriting though, and she's picking up words and such from the work. But then comes math. Dd can do the worksheets no problem, and the flash cards and the lessons are usually pretty smooth. But here's the kicker- she cannot for the life of her remember the names of numbers!! She can count up to 20 and say all the numbers- but hold up a number out of sequence and she will tell me what it looks like or even write it down- but won't remember the name. She mixes up 7 and 10 constantly and 12 and 20. If I ask her to put number cards in order- she can't do it past 10 even tho she can count up to 20 out loud. Is she just not ready for kindy? Or is it a learning issue? I've been reviewing and reviewing and counting and counting and going over numbers with her and it just doesn't seem to be sticking. It's the same mistakes over and over. I think it's so weird that she can do the worksheets and the work, but can't remember her numbers. Could it be Saxon? I'm frustrated and dh thinks she should go to public school to "get help", which is kind of a slap in the face to me. I honestly think she has a memory problem. Dd also can't remember simple poems like Twinkle Twinkle Little Star or Mary had a little lamb. Everything gets jumbled or she'll start to make up her own words.

Any ideas???

[Ellie]

Ideas? Yeah. She's just little. I'd be more inclined to go the other way: nothing formal, no pressure AT ALL, let her play, read aloud to her from good books, get rid of the Saxon.

[Jean in Newcastle]

It's hard to tell about things like this at this age. Could she have a memory problem? Yes. But it could also be just a developmental thing. Kids don't hit all their developmental milestones (and yes, this includes "schoolish" things) at the same time. Keep doing the stuff in math that is fun. Put away the number flashcards right now. You might try bringing them out in a couple of months. She may get it then, or you might have to put them away for awhile again. Same, with poetry. Say poems to her, perhaps while she's coloring or doing something else. But don't put her on the spot to remember them.

[yslek]

D is doing K work this year, and since she has an October b-day, is spending most of the school year as a 6yo. While T was definitely ready for K at age 5 (June b-day), I am so thankful that D is starting things later. She really, really wasn't ready for much of anything until just a couple of months ago. All of a sudden, things that I'd been working on with her (such as blending letter sounds--she's know her sounds for over a year) started falling into place. Math concepts, too.

 

So, she may just need a bit more time to mature. How about doing Saxon K? Sure, it's considered a bit "easy" for K, but it's also fun, and would not put her "behind". I think totally dropping the math altogether would be great, too, but if your dh is already considering ps, perhaps he'd be more amenable to switching.

 

:grouphug:

[runamuk]

My son (5 1/2) went through this last spring - heck, he couldn't even count past 10. I kept up with counting, read lots of number and counting books, and worked with shapes and patterns (he had fun with MUS Primer). By the time this fall rolled around, he could count to 100, recognize (and say and write) his numbers and even do a little adding. He still confuses 12 and 20 (and 13 & 30, 14 & 40, etc), but will correct himself if I point out the mistake.

 

Just give her time - it will work itself out. She'll mature a bit and things will start clicking for her. In the meantime, keep reading - ask your librarian for suggestions for number and counting books or nursery rhymes.

[grace'smom]

Does she understand the words to Twinkle Twinkle? As in, when she hears it, does she say Twinkle Twinkle or Wrinkle Wrinkle. My daughter has auditory processing problems and I am noticing the same issues with her. She has trouble learning songs because she can't process the words fast enough. The Sing Sweet Nightangale (sp) song in Cinderella is Daisy Night and Tails. She'll end up replacing words she doesn't process with whatever comes to mind and sounds similar. If you slow it down she can get it. But she doesn't hear everything the same.

 

I don't know what it is about the numbers, but she has trouble with them too. She also has trouble recognizing who her friends are if they are in a group. (Facial recognition). And their names are usually different than they really are (Bethany is Defany, Reagan is Meghan, etc.) She gets it if you help her, but it's a lot of work to help her hear the sounds properly.

 

I am wondering if your daughter is avoiding the reading because she doesn't process the phonics quickly enough? My daughter doesn't "get" reading either, but we are using the SWR approach since it is helping her recognize individual phonograms and improving her auditory processing as we go along. She's into the handwriting part too because it's more visual learning, which comes easier for her.

 

And this sounds worse than it looks it real life. It is actually a VERY subtle problem that I didn't even recognize until she started speech therapy and they explained it to me. Once they showed me what it was I could see what was happening, but until then I couldn't tell you what the issue was... It's very easy to dismiss the Daisy Night and Tails as cute, etc., it's the pattern of problems over time that shows the issue.

 

I have the same issue with the numbers though, and I know it is somehow related to her other problem but I don't know exactly what it is... I think it relates to her issue of facial recognition too. It's not like she can't recognize people, she just very frequently thinks the hairdresser is Aunt Cindy, or her friend Ashley can be standing outside of the preschool building and Grace will say that it's not her for about 3 minutes before she realizes it is her.

 

So, check out some reading on auditory processing, short term memory? And try doing the math drills VERY slowly, giving her time to think and process, see if that makes a difference? My daughter couldn't do Hooked On Phonics b/c the audio tape was too fast, KWIM?

 

We are using RightStart A, just got it, and we're on lesson 5. I think the way they count in that program will help my daughter with the number issue. I'll keep you posted on how it goes with that. But I am in the same boat as far as getting her to recognize the numbers. She learned her letters from Starfall, but Starfall doesn't have a number section or I would use it too!

 

Oh, and getting testing by a good speech pathologist never hurt anyone! As far as school helping with the problem, we believe that homeschooling is our daughter's best shot, because what teacher is going to have all that extra time to help her? She'd have to have a teacher with the patience to do those math drills over and over, and speak slower than her usual style, and she'd have to review all the directions twice because Grace wouldn't get it the first time, etc.... IMHO, no one else can have that kind of patience more than good old Mommy.

[lionfamily1999]

For the numbers...

 

Miquon recommends making flash cards of the numbers. Put a dot at the starting point (where you would put your pencil when you draw that number). Have her trace the numbers with her finger, that will help cement it, and have her say the number out loud while she traces. Luke was having problems with numbers and we started using Miquon. Slowly, but surely the counting and number recognition are starting to iron themselves out. (Yes, he is much younger, but I think it would work just as well for your dd. The Orange Book is K)

 

:grouphug:

 

You're doing fine! She's little, she'll catch on :p

 

(For reading I'd recommend Ordinary Parents' Guide to Teaching Reading, we use it and LOVE IT)

[calandalsmom]

I also have a 5 yo dd. She is doing horizons K and ETC.

 

 

I think what you are describing is very odd. I don't think your dh is wrong to be concerned, but I dont think school is always the answer in any case. I find it hard to imagine that she can't recall the names of the numbers and yet can do basic kindergarten math. Its puzzling to me.

 

Does she have trouble naming everyday objects?

 

Could she be joking with you?

 

 

I would try manipulatives she can hold. Maybe the fridge magnet types which look like the number first, then sets of small things- like 3 counters. or two dice.

 

And Id spend a few days naming numbers and see if she is consistantly connecting the word with the idea.

[Dawn in OH]

Both my kids had the 12 and 20 problem. Eventually it worked itself out.

My son had problems with number above 20, getting them out of order. Practice and time worked that out. He just wasn't ready for that at 5.

 

He also had problems with things that required memorization: phone number, days of the week, months of the year, etc. I found with him he just needed A LOT of repetition. I was sitting him down at the computer and having him listen to You Tube videos of those things several times a day. He picked them up much faster after that. His sister and I took turns working with him on the phone number.

 

The other posters did bring up some good points, there could be an auditory processing problem or a memory problem but it is also possible that she's just "not quite ready" and the things will work out in time. Pay close attention to her and observe her when she works on these things. It may give you some insight as to whether it's a maturity problem or something more.

[amygabrielle]

Thanks Ladies! :grouphug:

I think we're going to slow down even more than we already are and see what happens. Finish out November and rest in December. It might just be she's too young. I talked with dh some more since his panic about her schooling has subsided. He remembered that he himself had to repeat kindy because he had no interest in learning anything the first time. That might be our problem with dd. The novelty of "lessons" has worn off and she's got no interest.

Though, you're right, calandalsmom, it's the not being able to remember the names of numbers, yet totally understand basic kindy math that's puzzling. She can comfortably do addition/subtraction without help.

[Terabith]

I'm trying to figure out how this works.

 

On a worksheet, if she sees a problem like 3+1, can she write 4? But not remember the names of the numbers? Or, if she does it with manipulatives, she can choose the correct number of manipulatives but not say or write them?

 

The not remembering words to nursery rhymes actually is quite concerning to me. That's one of the best predictors of reading ability. I would consider having her tested. At five, it's not crucial, but most young preschoolers can recite some. I'm wondering if there is some subtle auditory processing issue there.

[amygabrielle]

Yep, give her 3+1 and she'll write 4. Dd is good with 1 through 6. 7,8 and 10 she has trouble remembering. She'll say, "the number with two balls" meaning 8. Or she'll say 10 meaning to say 7. And she'll draw complete blanks when it comes to the teens, but give her 9+9 and she'll write 18.

 

So can most preschoolers recite at least a few poems? She can say quite a few when I say them with her, but never on her own.

[Terabith]

That is odd.

 

Yeah, most preschoolers can recite a few nursery rhymes/ poems on their own. Coupled with her lack of interest in reading, I'm a little concerned about the likelihood of dyslexia or reading disabilities. Normally, five is way too young to be concerned, but the not saying rhymes is interesting, as is not being able to remember the names of the numbers. Can she remember the names/ sounds of letters?

 

She sounds very bright. But that is a level of quirkiness *I* would want to investigate. I would look into finding a pediatric speech pathologist and having an evaluation. That might not be the right specialist, but it would be a good place to start. A psychologist might do some testing that could yield some interesting information as well.

 

You might try posting on the special needs board. It doesn't sound like it's a profound problem, but it's quirky enough that I'd want to check it out.

[mominbc]

She sounds fine to me. I am doing K right now with me DS5. My oldest learned numbers so quickly but the next two took time. I even use little rhymes to help like "across the sky and down from heaven, heaven seven" (taken from Rod And Staff) and "a cookie and a cookie I eight(ate) the cookie" and it really helps but again it is daily repitition. My DD (now 12) wasn't interested in reading at 5 but is a great reader today, I just took it slow and read to her a lot. She could not recite nursery rhymes without working with her on it daily for perfect accuracy. But has a great memory now. Every child is different. I even have a friend who's son could not read until he was 7/8 and now he is such a proficient reader that he can read a 300 page classic novel in a day or two with perfect comprehension. I feel that the most important job of a homeschool mom is to provide a loving nurturing environment that will bring about a love for learning and sometimes that means lowering expectations. Enjoy your time with her, take it at her pace and it will all fall into place :grouphug:

[Mommy22alyns]

 

So can most preschoolers recite at least a few poems? She can say quite a few when I say them with her, but never on her own.

 

 

Can she sing "Twinkle Twinkle"? Just not say it? Or not at all? Becca can remember more when she sings it instead of just reciting it. Just a random thought.

[newlifemom]

You might want to do a search on this forum. I seem to recall a thread about kids that had a hard time memorizing rhymes and such. If memory serves me correctly (which it often doesn't) Most of the kids were fine. But they concerned their parents.:001_smile:HTH

[grace'smom]

http://www.dys-add.com/symptoms.html#preschool

 

This might be helpful for you. It's a wealth of information about dyslexia. Common early symptoms, how to treat it, how it shows up in different subjects (math included), when you should seek assistance and how to do so, etc.

 

You could try cross posting this in the special needs forum too. People in that forum are usually able to answer my questions about auditory processing very quickly. They're very well read, LOL.

[Terabith]

Oh definitely! I'd be less worried if she can SING Mary Had a Little Lamb or Twinkle Twinkle or other songs, than if she can neither recite nursery rhymes nor sing songs.

[keptwoman]

My DD is exactly the same with Maths.

She mixes 6 and 9 (and b and d)

12 and 20 or 13 and 30 etc

She can't figure out the numbers above 20 if given as a number and asked to name them but she can build them on "decimal street" which is what I feel is most important as she clearly understands place value.

Doesn't know or understand her teens at all and gets them mixed with her tens.

I think for us it's just a matter of time to figure out all the funny numbers. Lets face it the teens names don't make much sense!!

 

She was the same with her reading at 5 but now is streaking away.

 

She has also never chosen to recite nursery rhymes or poems but she can sing along to songs. Some kids just aren't in to that.

 

I think kids just take different periods of time to understand ideas and concepts. I have one with LDs and DD's issues are not ringing alarm bells for me right now. I think she will get it as she matures.

Edited November 4, 2009 by keptwoman

[Jean in Newcastle]

Re. rhymes or songs.

 

1. I found that I had to go slower with rhymes or songs with young children or they don't catch on to all the words.

 

2. Often kids that seem unable to sing or say a rhyme or song (esp. "from the top") will surprise you if you sing it and then stop and let them finish the line for you. Or if you change the line to something silly, they will stop you and correct you!

[amygabrielle]

Thanks Everyone! :grouphug:

I'm convinced it's age related. :) She's a spark!