Praising or not praising children as a parenting issue

[Ritsumei]

I can confirm that children stop listening after you speak for more than 7 seconds, too.:D. Her essay has caused me to evaluate precisely what and why I am praising.

 

Glad it's useful. I think, after watching some adults, it's really people who sort of glaze over... adults are just better at hiding it for the sake of being polite!;)

[Kathleen in VA]

http://www.crosswalk.com/11609818/ Link is to an interesting article on Crosswalk by Albert Mohler about how parents are depicted in picture books and he acutally addresses the no praise parenting thought.

Personally I think it's a bunch of hokey. My kids want to be mirrored by me. Want to see me praise their hard work, crazy antics, hugs, success. This is a "duh" issue imho.

otoh I have never given my kids grades- they either know the work or they don't. I don't reward foolishness or false success.

 

Wow, I guess I must be pretty stupid.:confused:

[Tangerine]

Kathleen,

 

The books you were asking about (and some other awesome ones that were recommended to you) are not remotely about what this thread has been about. They are not anti-praise. They are pro genuine appreciation. They are anti gold-sticker, atta-boy, now do it again type of praise. As I mentioned before, Aldort can be hard to swallow. But I do admire people who can set aside one aspect of a person's life or belief, and yet take helpful suggestions to heart. (so good job! ;)) I second Hold On To Your Kids. Great book.

[Kathleen in VA]

Kathleen,

 

The books you were asking about (and some other awesome ones that were recommended to you) are not remotely about what this thread has been about. They are not anti-praise. They are pro genuine appreciation. They are anti gold-sticker, atta-boy, now do it again type of praise. As I mentioned before, Aldort can be hard to swallow. But I do admire people who can set aside one aspect of a person's life or belief, and yet take helpful suggestions to heart. (so good job! ;)) I second Hold On To Your Kids. Great book.

 

Thanks, Sarah! (I was raised on gold stickers:D)

[Kathleen in VA]

Glad it's useful. I think, after watching some adults, it's really people who sort of glaze over... adults are just better at hiding it for the sake of being polite!;)

 

I think you're right, lol.

[laughing lioness]

Kathleen- I was stating my opinion, not calling names:confused:

[ereks mom]

There are some children who may not benefit from praise, but there are also some children for whom praise is like oxygen. It comes down to love languages. If a child's love language is words of affirmation, withholding praise would be like telling them you don't love them.

 

 

:iagree:

[kalanamak]

Personally I think it's a bunch of hokey. My kids want to be mirrored by me. Want to see me praise their hard work, crazy antics, hugs, success. This is a "duh" issue imho.

 

Families are different. I nearly want to puke when I hear the "you're so wonderful, you're so beautiful, you're so special" school of parenting. OTOH, I feel like I'm "normal" enough to speak up when something really strikes me, e.g. after working through 3 or 4 subtractions with borrowing problems with me speaking step by step, and he suddenly does one himself, I might spontaneously say "that's the way!" and we'll both sigh in relief, because we had been working up until then. More like a grunt when the rock you've been prying at with all your might, clears the rim of its hole and rolls out of the way, than praise. I don't say "you're so smart" or "I knew you could do it" or "that's such good work".

 

My father used to say much argument comes down to definition. And while we can make clear the difference between "you worked hard on that project, congratulations" and "it is so wonderful and you are brilliant", family dynamics are different. I would have been shocked and uncomfortable if my parents had said "you're so smart". It would have been so out of character, I would have actually worried about him or her! But, I come from the family of the underspoken, where great grief is expressed in one sound (I remember my mother coming across her cat's old feeding bowl, and her face wincing, a wince I saw only that once) and great love in one gesture. It worked for us. And if it doesn't work for kiddo, I think he'll let me know in word or deed.

[Kathleen in VA]

Kathleen- I was stating my opinion, not calling names:confused:

 

Well, no, you didn't name call directly. But you did say the issue itself was a "duh" issue which implies anyone contemplating it must not be too bright. And, I realize, "imho" means it's your opinion, but then most of what people say on these boards is their opinion. I really don't see how that changes the conclusion that whoever is wondering about it must be not be very smart.

 

Imagine posting a thread asking a sincere question about something and someone else posted they thought it was a "duh" issue. Doesn't that mean you were pretty dumb to bring it up in the first place? I really don't see how it could mean anything else.

[katemary63]

I don't say "you're so smart" or "I knew you could do it" or "that's such good work".

 

Maybe you don't like saying these things because you're uncomfortable with them because YOU didn't hear them. But that is not a REASON not to say them and that doesn't mean your kids wouldn't benefit from hearing them. Honestly, just asking. But I'm trying to figure out WHY a parent would withhold affirmation to a kid like, "that's such good work" when it was actually good work. How does telling the truth hurt? Personally, I bet that if your mom or dad said one of these lines, you might be in shock at first, but then you would burst into tears when you finally realized that it was what you wanted to hear all along. So would your kids. Of course, people aren't all the same....people are different....but EVERYBODY wants to hear that they did a good job from someone that is important to them. EVERYBODY.

[katemary63]

 

I like my dh to notice when the house is clean and I appreciate it when he tells me so or when I make an extra effort to have a nice dinner and he praises the hard work. I like it and it makes me feel good. To not praise someone seems way off balance and a little crazy.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Imprimis]

Families are different. I nearly want to puke when I hear the "you're so wonderful, you're so beautiful, you're so special" school of parenting.

 

 

Your first three words seem to contradict the rest of the quote above. Families are different, and perhaps there are times when "you're so wonderful" is exactly how a parent feels about his/her child, and wants to express that feeling in words.

 

I would certainly rather hear a parent offer praise to a child (even if it may seem over-the-top) than verbally abuse a child, belittle a child, swear at child, etc. Now, that type of parenting is what makes me feel ill.

[Joanne]

I would certainly rather hear a parent offer praise to a child (even if it may seem over-the-top) than verbally abuse a child, belittle a child, swear at child, etc. Now, that type of parenting is what makes me feel ill.

__________________

 

But (gently), Tina, this is a red herring to the discussion. The choices aren't "overpraise" or "emotionally batter".

 

Your comparison is like those who say I'd rather see a kid get a needed swat on the bottom than be screamed at. :001_huh:

 

I think there is something useful to be gleaned from the antipraise "side", even if you don't fully go all the way down that path (I certainly don't). I do think there are dangers, counter productivities and issues involved in over, generalized, frequent or vague praising of children.

 

Of course there are also dangers of emotional abuse.

 

Connecting the two in an arguement doesn't support the case for mis- or -over use of praise.;)

 

I read Mr. Kohn's Punished by Rewards (of which I believe I have a signed copy) and found it, aside from the arrogance, interesting and thought provoking. I haven't read his more recent book because the cult following it developed and the sub cultures that co-opted his book are a turn off. I can get "punish less" support in other places.

 

I give my kids honest, authentic feedback. When they've gone above and beyond in school, chores or extracurriculars, I mention it enthusiastically. When I can personalize it "you made my afternoon much more comfortable", "you worked hard for that President's Challenge award", "good bunt, you advance 2 runners", I do.

 

I rarely say "Good job", and I can't think of a time when I said "good girl" or "good boy".

 

I'm learning about behaviorism in school and although I never really liked it before as a model for parenting, I like it less now.

[Nestof3]

My boys are wonderful, beautiful and special. I tell them that weekly.

 

My parents were never big on verbalizing praise, but my Dad is very free with his criticism. Overall, I do see myself as quite a great contribution to peoples' lives, and I think I'm pretty competent and talented in many things, but I still think it would be nice to hear my dad say so. I mean, he freely praises cars, movies, food, etc. -- why not his own daughter.

 

If we're willing to say, "That was a great meal" or "That dress is beautiful," why not "You're a great kid" or "You are a beautiful boy."

 

Do people really say, "That meal was a good try? That's the way!" Do some families really not compliment on a regular basis?

 

In fact, one of my favorite movie scenes is in Mr. Holland's Opus when Mr. Holland sings the John Lennon song "Beautiful Boy" to his son.

 

Oh, and I love it when my husband says, "You're beautiful" when we're in bed. I'd rather hear that than "I can tell you've made an attempt to tone yourself."

 

I agree that specific feedback and praise is important as well, but I think there is definitely a place for "over the top" in relationships.

 

Families are different. I nearly want to puke when I hear the "you're so wonderful, you're so beautiful, you're so special" school of parenting. OTOH, I feel like I'm "normal" enough to speak up when something really strikes me, e.g. after working through 3 or 4 subtractions with borrowing problems with me speaking step by step, and he suddenly does one himself, I might spontaneously say "that's the way!" and we'll both sigh in relief, because we had been working up until then. More like a grunt when the rock you've been prying at with all your might, clears the rim of its hole and rolls out of the way, than praise. I don't say "you're so smart" or "I knew you could do it" or "that's such good work".

 

My father used to say much argument comes down to definition. And while we can make clear the difference between "you worked hard on that project, congratulations" and "it is so wonderful and you are brilliant", family dynamics are different. I would have been shocked and uncomfortable if my parents had said "you're so smart". It would have been so out of character, I would have actually worried about him or her! But, I come from the family of the underspoken, where great grief is expressed in one sound (I remember my mother coming across her cat's old feeding bowl, and her face wincing, a wince I saw only that once) and great love in one gesture. It worked for us. And if it doesn't work for kiddo, I think he'll let me know in word or deed.

Edited October 19, 2009 by nestof3

[Imprimis]

But (gently), Tina, this is a red herring to the discussion. The choices aren't "overpraise" or "emotionally batter".

 

Your comparison is like those who say I'd rather see a kid get a needed swat on the bottom than be screamed at. :001_huh:

 

 

 

You're right, Joanne. I should have left out the, "I would rather hear..." part of my post. That was just a knee-jerk reaction to the strong feelings the poster had toward the phrases, "you're so wonderful," and "you're so special," as I truly believe good parenting can include praise such as that at times.

[tdeveson]

I think this is a kind of one-size-fits-all mentality. There are some children who may not benefit from praise, but there are also some children for whom praise is like oxygen. It comes down to love languages. If a child's love language is words of affirmation, withholding praise would be like telling them you don't love them.

 

 

:iagree:

 

 

[Joanne]

You're right, Joanne. I should have left out the, "I would rather hear..." part of my post. That was just a knee-jerk reaction to the strong feelings the poster had toward the phrases, "you're so wonderful," and "you're so special," as I truly believe good parenting can include praise such as that at times.

 

I agree with the bold part.

 

Hey, who is the skater in your house? I like your avatar. My boys skate. A local indoor park closed for a long time, has recently re-opened and they are thrilled!

[Peela]

I think there is something useful to be gleaned from the antipraise "side", even if you don't fully go all the way down that path (I certainly don't). I do think there are dangers, counter productivities and issues involved in over, generalized, frequent or vague praising of children.

 

 

 

:iagree:

I am not convinced the anti praise school are wholly wrong or right, but I think they have some really good points.

I also think it's a hard pattern to undo as a parent because we are brought up in a manipulative parenting culture where praise is used as a commodity and currency. So I am pretty sure I praise a lot with unconscious manipulative motives I just havent seen, and its a hard habit to undo.

[Imprimis]

 

Hey, who is the skater in your house? I like your avatar. My boys skate. A local indoor park closed for a long time, has recently re-opened and they are thrilled!

 

Thank you. Ds is the skater, dd was the photographer, and her vantage point was the ground. :001_smile:

[kalanamak]

Maybe you don't like saying these things because you're uncomfortable with them because YOU didn't hear them. But that is not a REASON not to say them and that doesn't mean your kids wouldn't benefit from hearing them. Honestly, just asking. But I'm trying to figure out WHY a parent would withhold affirmation to a kid like, "that's such good work" when it was actually good work. How does telling the truth hurt? Personally, I bet that if your mom or dad said one of these lines, you might be in shock at first, but then you would burst into tears when you finally realized that it was what you wanted to hear all along. So would your kids. Of course, people aren't all the same....people are different....but EVERYBODY wants to hear that they did a good job from someone that is important to them. EVERYBODY.

 

I think I would not have burst into tears if I got "used to being complimented". I don't believe I have ever burst into tears. The thought is amusing!

 

I think life is a bit tough, and my goal as a parent is to allow the child to draw on resources from within. I don't "withhold": I don't think it, so why would I say it artificially? By assigning "good job" ( and the flipside "bad job") to much of what he does, I am imposing my opinions. I want him to rely on his own thoughts, not mine. He knows if he has done good work. He'll even point it out to me.

 

I grew up in a family of a lot of laughter and hard work. I knew I was beloved, I knew I was bright, I knew I was capable. But I knew by actions, not words, and to this day I value actions FAR above words. In my adult experience the biggest "word" people are usually the biggest con artists. A couple kind words with someone I have worked alongside for years is far more important that high praise from someone I don't have a relationship with. My mother used to say "talk is cheap".

 

I did ask her, when I was in my early 30's, why they hadn't been "overjoyed" with such and such a child getting into law school or med school, and my mother replied "If we had shown that, and then that child had flunked out or not done well, they might think we would be disappointed in them." The act of withholding praise is the flipside of withholding condemnation. Being the calm, the neutral allowed me, as an adult, to approach my parents much more as a trusted peer. I asked advice when I needed to. It was NEVER offered without a request. They did not stick their opinions into my life. They believed in the privacy of the mind, the autonomy of the individual.

 

I loved my parents, my childhood with them, and repeat as much of it as I feel is appropriate in the 21st century, and that is my reason not to say things my parents wouldn't have. Within our personalities and intellectual abilities, they had a good track record of producing decent, hardworking citizens who are good parents. I aspire to producing another one.

[kalanamak]

Your first three words seem to contradict the rest of the quote above. Families are different, and perhaps there are times when "you're so wonderful" is exactly how a parent feels about his/her child, and wants to express that feeling in words.

 

 

I was referring to two families I met over the years. Both families had two working parents who were not around their kid/s much. The first one, mom and dad both said NOTHING but "wonderful things" to their 4 year old. You could not speak normally to them when the child was present because they were literally droning on: you're so pretty, you're so sweet.

 

It was very bizarre, and I think it was related to the fact they sent their kid off to a nanny 6 days a week.

 

The second family named their kids after movie stars and treated the boy with near silence, and the girl (named after a bombshell of the 60's) with constant remarks on how cute, pretty, even sexy she was. It was sick. They dressed her like a grown woman who wants to attract men. Ugh.

[katemary63]

I think I would not have burst into tears if I got "used to being complimented". I don't believe I have ever burst into tears. The thought is amusing!

 

I think life is a bit tough, and my goal as a parent is to allow the child to draw on resources from within. I don't "withhold": I don't think it, so why would I say it artificially? By assigning "good job" ( and the flipside "bad job") to much of what he does, I am imposing my opinions. I want him to rely on his own thoughts, not mine. He knows if he has done good work. He'll even point it out to me.

 

I grew up in a family of a lot of laughter and hard work. I knew I was beloved, I knew I was bright, I knew I was capable. But I knew by actions, not words, and to this day I value actions FAR above words. In my adult experience the biggest "word" people are usually the biggest con artists. A couple kind words with someone I have worked alongside for years is far more important that high praise from someone I don't have a relationship with. My mother used to say "talk is cheap".

 

I did ask her, when I was in my early 30's, why they hadn't been "overjoyed" with such and such a child getting into law school or med school, and my mother replied "If we had shown that, and then that child had flunked out or not done well, they might think we would be disappointed in them." The act of withholding praise is the flipside of withholding condemnation. Being the calm, the neutral allowed me, as an adult, to approach my parents much more as a trusted peer. I asked advice when I needed to. It was NEVER offered without a request. They did not stick their opinions into my life. They believed in the privacy of the mind, the autonomy of the individual.

 

I loved my parents, my childhood with them, and repeat as much of it as I feel is appropriate in the 21st century, and that is my reason not to say things my parents wouldn't have. Within our personalities and intellectual abilities, they had a good track record of producing decent, hardworking citizens who are good parents. I aspire to producing another one.

 

Well, gosh, that's a long explanation for why you never compliment your child and why your parents never complimented you.

 

No offense really, but what your saying almost makes me want to cry. It's really, really sad.

 

All I can do is say that I don't buy it at all and then repeat what I said in my first post.

 

Everybody wants to hear that they have done a good job from someone that is important to them. EVERYBODY.

 

It's a simple as that. You don't have to do it. That's your right. But I don't believe for a second that it would be bad for you or your kid to hear some actual words of affirmation and I don't believe the reasons you give are valid. But...like you say, every family dynamic is different.

 

Now....where's my little princess, I'm off to tell her she is the light of my life and that I just can't live another second without a kiss from her perfect little face! :D

[kalanamak]

Well, gosh, that's a long explanation for why you never compliment your child and why your parents never complimented you.

 

 

Compliment and praise are different to me.

 

Tonight, just to staunch your tears :D, I told my son "you did a good job on your math tonight". I was interrupted by a squeal of delight: he had been working on the "fun" question at the bottom of the page, and realized the answer to "what goes up when it rains" was an umbrella.

 

Later, I tried the same with grammar, but he literally jumped out of his chair because he'd discovered the amazing fact that most of the word "grammar" is a palindrome. Since I was leaning over to say it discreetly, he bonked me in the nose. There is no respite for the wicked I guess. :lol:

[katemary63]

Compliment and praise are different to me.

 

Tonight, just to staunch your tears :D, I told my son "you did a good job on your math tonight". I was interrupted by a squeal of delight: he had been working on the "fun" question at the bottom of the page, and realized the answer to "what goes up when it rains" was an umbrella.

 

Later, I tried the same with grammar, but he literally jumped out of his chair because he'd discovered the amazing fact that most of the word "grammar" is a palindrome. Since I was leaning over to say it discreetly, he bonked me in the nose. There is no respite for the wicked I guess. :lol:

 

From dictionary.com

Praise: the act of expressing approval or admiration; commendation; laudation.

Compliment: an expression of praise, commendation, or admiration

They are virtually identical. Synonyms if there ever were two.

Well, now I'm stumped. If you do say, "you did a good job" then why did you say you never say, "Good job"? At any rate....I'm glad you actually say it even though you said you don't and I've stopped crying! Thank you.

[kalanamak]

From dictionary.com

Praise: the act of expressing approval or admiration; commendation; laudation.

 

Compliment: an expression of praise, commendation, or admiration

 

 

I guess in my mind, complimenting a person on their shoes is not the same as praising someone for their shoes. Compliment is a simple thing. I have never looked them up, and was unaware. Darn. Now I need a new word. To replace what I thought compliment was: a pleasant remark on someone's clothes or cooking. Oh thief, do you have a replacement for me?

[kalanamak]

 

Well, now I'm stumped. If you do say, "you did a good job" then why did you say you never say, "Good job"? At any rate....I'm glad you actually say it even though you said you don't and I've stopped crying! Thank you.

 

 

Because I only did it tonight, for you. I gave it a try and he was oblivious. He was too excited with what he was learning to take in my rather useless opinion. Good boy.

[KidsHappen]

Oh, and I love it when my husband says, "You're beautiful" when we're in bed. I'd rather hear that than "I can tell you've made an attempt to tone yourself."

 

:lol: Well, that really puts things in perspective, doesn't it?

[Ritsumei]

In my adult experience the biggest "word" people are usually the biggest con artists. ...[snip]...

 

The act of withholding praise is the flipside of withholding condemnation. Being the calm, the neutral allowed me, as an adult, to approach my parents much more as a trusted peer.

 

 

The first, I mostly agree with. My husband and I call these people "sliver tongues" and we try to avoid them. It is possible to be a "word" person & still be a decent human being, but add ANY tendency to manipulate and use... it can get ugly fast.

 

The second, I find very interesting. I hadn't considered the connection between praise and condemnation before. What do you do when the flip side would be something worthy of condemnation? For instance, my husband and I have been specifically noticing and praising it when Monkey exhibits a value that we want him to develop, such as work, obedience, kindness, generosity. The flip sides of these (lazy, disobedient, mean, greedy), IMO, are worthy of some condemnation and correction. How do you deal with that sort of thing in a neutral fashion? It's an intriguing line of thought.

[KidsHappen]

It really does depend on the child. I have six and praising innate attributes is guaranteed to garner argument in two of them. I have no idea why but these two do not know how to take a compliment. If you asked each of them they would tell you that they are not smart, pretty, creative or what have you. I finally figured out that they will not argue with me if I just say, "I love you". They roll their eyes and walk away acting exacerbated with me but they don't argue. As far as I know, I raised them all the same so the difference must have something to do with their natural personalities. The two that are like this have always been this way so I don't think it is a phase either. Unfortunately, I think that must mean that I am parenting some of them more effectively than others because I don't adjust my behavior to their needs as much as I probably should.

[angela in ohio]

But I knew by actions, not words, and to this day I value actions FAR above words. In my adult experience the biggest "word" people are usually the biggest con artists. A couple kind words with someone I have worked alongside for years is far more important that high praise from someone I don't have a relationship with. My mother used to say "talk is cheap".

 

This is such truth. I have several "word people" in my life. They praise you over the top to your face and then never take you into consideration in their actions. My dh is the opposite, as are some close friends, and I appreciate it more and more as I get "thrown under the bus" by these people. I don't need a lot of smooth talk. I need someone who will "have my back," and put me before their own greed, pride, etc.

 

I like to think we have taught our dc that actions speak louder than words, even though we do use a moderate amount to deserved praise with them, though. Actually, I know we have, as oldest dd will choose the meek, loving girl over the popular, fawning girl anyday. :001_smile:

[kalanamak]

I really don't see how it could mean anything else.

 

I promise to let this thread lie after this, but hope to reassure a couple of posters I read regularly, that there is another interpretation. I personally would have said "for me, it is a "duh" issue", but I take the "it is a "duh" issue, imho" to be the equivalent. She is saying that for her in her life it is not something she would have to evaluate because the way she does it is so natural and "right" to her. Read LL's other posts. There is not an insulter sitting at that keyboard. Promise.:D

[amy g.]

I must be all about manipulating children.

 

I was taught not to praise back in my Early Childhood and Elementary Education classes. I've passed tests about how damaging praise is, but I use it anyway.

 

You know the dog training theory of no free lunch? I like to use that on my kids. If they ask, "May I have some cheese and crackers?" I'll say, "Only if you unload the dishwasher first."

 

I've decided that I'm letting them off to easy. This week, every time they have wanted a favor, I've said, "Only if you sing me a love song".

 

It is just too gratifying to hear Miss Bossy end every song with "...you precious little angel, you..."

 

So not only do I manipulate them, I insist on empty flattery in return.

 

Well, at least we are laughing instead of fighting.

[Ritsumei]

I must be all about manipulating children.

 

I was taught not to praise back in my Early Childhood and Elementary Education classes. I've passed tests about how damaging praise is, but I use it anyway.

 

You know the dog training theory of no free lunch? I like to use that on my kids. If they ask, "May I have some cheese and crackers?" I'll say, "Only if you unload the dishwasher first."

 

I've decided that I'm letting them off to easy. This week, every time they have wanted a favor, I've said, "Only if you sing me a love song".

 

It is just too gratifying to hear Miss Bossy end every song with "...you precious little angel, you..."

 

So not only do I manipulate them, I insist on empty flattery in return.

 

Well, at least we are laughing instead of fighting.

 

:lol:

I love it!! How can you go wrong when you're laughing your way into great relationships?