Jean in Newcastle Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 There is a 11 year old girl in our church with no personal boundaries. She is always touching the other kids. She tries to pick up dd7. I had to tell her over and over again not to do that because dd7 is just too big to pick up. So she stopped, but now she scootches so close to dd7 on the bench that their whole side is touching. And then she caresses the other kids. Ds12 tells her to knock it off and she will. But dd7 (who doesn't like it) is too shy to come right out and tell her to stop. Her parents and grandparents are also at the church and never do anything to redirect her. I am her teacher and have to tell her over and over again in class to keep her hands to herself. So today :glare: she starts to caress herself in class - esp. her chest. Any insight or suggestions? BTW - she is homeschooled though that has absolutely nothing to do with it. She is also normal developmentally as far as I can tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Sensory issues? Other unseen issues? I have a friend in Ontario, her son has Aspergers, and he does stuff like that...no idea of social cues and boundries. And he's not home schooled. Or...perhaps she's being inappropriately touched by someone is the other thing that comes to mind with the rubbing her chest. I'd definitely talk to her parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Elf Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Perhaps a sensory thing? Sounds like she is a very tactile person. Maybe give her something tactile to hold, something that soft and squishy since she likes to touch people. Maybe have her put something between her and the next kid if they are sitting on a bench, such as a rolled up blanket. If they are in separate chairs and she is scooting over, put her on the end and have the table near a wall so her front is against the table and her back is against the wall. Just some ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 I do think she is very tactile. I notice that Grandma esp. cuddles her a lot when she comes by. Coincidentally (or maybe not) she is an only child. My main concern is the comfort of the other children who should not have to be touched when they don't want to be. That, and the fact that at 11, she will start developing soon and needs to develop some personal boundaries re. touching for the teenage years and above. I'm glad that people are giving me some good suggestions of ways to meet her needs while helping her to be appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosy Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I'd probably go to the parents, since it's a disruption. I wouldn't make a big deal about, just something along the lines of "Hey, I love having Susie in my class. She is really sweet with the other kids, and while we really appreciate that, there have been times that she might be a little too affectionate. Different kids have different comfort levels with affection, and some of our kids just prefer not to be touched. Could you talk to her about this?" It's a tough issue, they might be offended, but at least it would protect the other kids. I'm not sure I would bring up her touching herself...at this point it's not a moral issue, just a weird quirk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 I'd probably go to the parents, since it's a disruption. I wouldn't make a big deal about, just something along the lines of "Hey, I love having Susie in my class. She is really sweet with the other kids, and while we really appreciate that, there have been times that she might be a little too affectionate. Different kids have different comfort levels with affection, and some of our kids just prefer not to be touched. Could you talk to her about this?" It's a tough issue, they might be offended, but at least it would protect the other kids. I'm not sure I would bring up her touching herself...at this point it's not a moral issue, just a weird quirk. I love the approach suggested, but I would totally mention her caressing herself...because in my view, it could be indicative of inappropriate touching that the child is experiencing. I'm not about to say that she IS being molested, but at the same time I wouldn't not mention something that might have her parents investigating whats happening in her life. They have the right to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialmama Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Have you talked to whoever is in charge of children's ministries at your church? Where I teach Sunday School, we are obligated to report such things to the Children's Minister. They will take it from there. Is she adopted? Many kids who have been abused/neglected will do exactly what you describe; they do not understand personal space or boundries. As for practical suggestions, you should post some class rules in clear view and go over them at the beginning of every day you are there. Common rules should be noted also, like "we say please and thank you, we sit quietly, we keep our hands to ourselves, etc." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 Maybe you could teach the kids to knit or embroider and be sure to give her extra praise for her efforts to get her to continue? Baby wool is nice to touch, embroidery thread is nice and looks shiny, aida cloth feels crisp and clean (until it gets mauled, heheh.) Lots of people concentrate better when their hands are busy. "Susie, some people have fingers that like to be busy and get bored very quickly. I think your fingers are a bit like that, so let's give them something pretty and useful to do so they feel clever. I love to/ am learning to knit/ cross stitch/ weave/ make dolls/ whatever and would like to share some of my pretty wool/ fabric/ thread with you. Would you like that? If you bring it along to Sunday School, you can work on it during listening time." Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 But dd7 (who doesn't like it) is too shy to come right out and tell her to stop. . I would be very concerned about this. The girl in the class and your dd both have a problem with personal boundaries, they're just at opposite extremes. There are children's books on the subject. (I remember one called My Body is Private.) I don't know if you'd be allowed to read something like that in class but I'd sure start helping your dd with her problem of being too shy to say no ASAP. Maybe I'm just a meanie but I would have no problem putting a child who can't keep her hands to herself in a chair instead of letting her sit on a bench/so close to others. I don't see why you can't talk to her family and let them know what's going on so they can be part of the solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 I would be very concerned about this. The girl in the class and your dd both have a problem with personal boundaries, they're just at opposite extremes. There are children's books on the subject. (I remember one called My Body is Private.) I don't know if you'd be allowed to read something like that in class but I'd sure start helping your dd with her problem of being too shy to say no ASAP. Maybe I'm just a meanie but I would have no problem putting a child who can't keep her hands to herself in a chair instead of letting her sit on a bench/so close to others. I don't see why you can't talk to her family and let them know what's going on so they can be part of the solution. I am concerned about my dd too. And I'm working with her on it. If I can't circumvent things gently on my own in class, I will talk to her parents. The problem is that somethings - like the constant picking up of my daughter was done right in front of her parents. And her parents did/said nothing. Even after I said in front of them "Please do not pick up my daughter. She's too big and she doesn't like it." The girl then turned around and picked up my dd again and Mom and Dad said nothing. So, my first choice is to handle it quietly in the capacity as teacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I'd probably go to the parents, since it's a disruption. I wouldn't make a big deal about, just something along the lines of "Hey, I love having Susie in my class. She is really sweet with the other kids, and while we really appreciate that, there have been times that she might be a little too affectionate. Different kids have different comfort levels with affection, and some of our kids just prefer not to be touched. Could you talk to her about this?" It's a tough issue, they might be offended, but at least it would protect the other kids. I'm not sure I would bring up her touching herself...at this point it's not a moral issue, just a weird quirk. I totally agree with this. If the self-caressing just started, I wouldn't mention it either. I think it is a very small probability that it is evidence of sexual abuse. Almost certainly, given what you've described, she's a tactile stimulation seeker and the self-caress fits with that. Behavior that is the result of sexual abuse has a weird, sexual "tone" to it in most cases. The way you've described this is an awkward, oblivious, sensory-seeking tone. The parents may not react (as you've described) because they are tired of trying to deal with it and are happy for someone else to intervene. I'm not saying that's right, but that's possible. I would ask what they suggest that you do in class when it happens. I think the idea of giving her something that is sensory in her hands (there are all kinds of things like that in OT catalogs and kids' stores) would be helpful. The parents may not even be aware that there is such a thing as sensory-seeking behavior. There is also treatment for it via OT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 If I can't circumvent things gently on my own in class, I will talk to her parents. The problem is that somethings - like the constant picking up of my daughter was done right in front of her parents. And her parents did/said nothing. Even after I said in front of them "Please do not pick up my daughter. She's too big and she doesn't like it." The girl then turned around and picked up my dd again and Mom and Dad said nothing. So, my first choice is to handle it quietly in the capacity as teacher. Honestly, for her age, it sounds like undiagnosed and untreated special needs of some kind. (Sensory, on the spectrum, etc). It could be that the parents and grandparents experience with her has normalized the behavior (which is way not age expected) and they don't see how outside the norm it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingmommy Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 I think you should definitely talk with her parents about the situation, even if you only talk about her violating the personal boundaries of others. It sounds like her parents are either oblivious and need someone to get their attention or they are consciously ignoring her behavior and need someone to make them take her in hand. I also agree that she sounds as though she has some sort of sensory issue. Her parents might be offended, but they might also be grateful to you for drawing their attention to the situation. I know more than one family that has become so accustomed to their child's behavior that they truly do not see how it can be disturbing to other people. Jeannie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted September 29, 2009 Author Share Posted September 29, 2009 Sigh. I hate talking to parents. Well, not all parents! Just the ones who do not really want to know how their kids are doing. I had to talk to them a couple weeks ago - because of other behavior that was even more disruptive. They said they would talk to her but in the next breath said something about my picky high standards. So, I feel like if I bring up something again that will really "prove" that I have picky high standards! The good thing is that this girl is really responding to my teaching. She wants to be there and when her parents were unable to bring her last week, she arranged for transportation to and from church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RanchGirl Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 I can't understand that perspective from the parents so I don't know what to suggest. Personally, I would *want* to know if my child was being repeatedly disruptive/inappropriate/embarassing. This seems to qualify as all 3! I would say either talk directly to the parents, but since you've done that once and didn't get a helpful response, the next step (if you can't redirect her behaviour on your own with the other helpful ideas folks have suggested) should be to have your youth director/children's pastor contact the parents. So the parents know that it is now just you being "picky". In fact, I would highly recommend you keep your director or pastor in the loop right now so that you have established a record of your concerns and also so he or she can try to witness the behaviour and perhaps give you additional suggestions. Love that you are just concerned about the behavior but still wanting to teach and reach this little girl, you are a good teacher!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caribbean Queen Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 (edited) You could try giving her a spot to sit on that is a few feet from the other children. You might need to mark the spot with tape to make it obvious to her where her spot it. Explain that since she has a hard time keeping her hands to herself, she will need to sit away from the other children. If you don't make too big of a deal of it, and put her closer to you than the other children, she will probably be pleased, rather than disapointed. As for the caressing herself - Could speak quietly, directly, to her, and tell her what to do with her hands? "Fold your hands and put them in your lap." "Hold your book with both hands." or something like that. If she still moves over to the other children, or touches herself, you could gesture to her with a stern expression on your face. Just pointing to her spot or folding your hands might get the point across. Edited September 29, 2009 by Caribbean Queen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsrevmeg Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 I would be very concerned about this. The girl in the class and your dd both have a problem with personal boundaries, they're just at opposite extremes. How is it that her daughter has issues? I don't like people (other than family) coming up to me and putting their hands on me. I have noticed at our church that girls seem more likely to be the ones to go up and give random hugs, pick up kids, (my six year is constantly being picked up a teenage girl, who constantly hugs on my husband.) In my experience I can tell someone over and over again, please don't touch me/my child/ my stuff, and they usually don't care if they are a touchy-feely. Try to position yourself between her and you daughter. That could help your daughter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RanchGirl Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) How is it that her daughter has issues? I believe the "issue" in the post to which you are referring was the fact that the daughter was too shy to ask the girl to stop touching her/carrying her. And the OP stated she is working on this with her daughter. No one is questioning whether it's ok to not want to be mauled by others! :) Back to the original question...what about one of those tactile tabbie blankies for toddlers -- something with lots of texture for her to hold in her lap? they may also be called tabby or taggy blankets. They look like this: http://shop.polkadottots.org/Tabbie-Blanket-125.htm. and here is a smaller size one: http://picasaweb.google.com/eljae28/SewingProjects#5118407803521299394. If you get one, I would suggest minky for at least one side. It's so soft soft, it would be irresistable to "pet" that. The ribbon tabs provide different textures. You could even make them as projects in the class -- it's pretty easy. Edited October 1, 2009 by RanchGirl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 1, 2009 Author Share Posted October 1, 2009 So, if I give her something to hold, will I be setting her up to be teased in some way? I want to help her but as unobtrusively as possible, so that she doesn't feel uncomfortable or embarrassed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fivetails Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 So, if I give her something to hold, will I be setting her up to be teased in some way? I want to help her but as unobtrusively as possible, so that she doesn't feel uncomfortable or embarrassed. Perhaps try a small 'fidget' type of item - something fairly common, not likely to draw too much attention from the other kids... a small bracelet, keychain, squishy ball, etc... we do this with ds10 who often needs an item like that. What he'd prefer to have is his huge 'blanky' from home, but outside enviroments don't always allow for the dragging of 20-some year old crocheted blankets. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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