Why doesn't Classical education use process writing?

[FairProspects]

Can anyone tell me why classical education does not emphasize process writing? I mean brainstorming, pre-writing, outlining, writing, editing, re-writing, etc. What is the rationale in classical education for choosing to teach writing differently (copywork, narration, dictation)?

 

I am thinking this through philosophically, as it seems to me that one of the major complaints about homeschoolers from educators when they enter community college, university or if they take any classes at public school, is that they are "behind" in writing because they have taken a classical approach and not done 6-trait or process writing.

 

I understand the argument that you must learn from the best and have something to write about, which is why we study the classical authors, however, so much of society is about organizing our thoughts in written form, and I'm not sure that just by teaching kids to organize their writing or brainstorm it will ruin their ability to write. If someone had done all the classical work, and knew how to organize and edit skillfully, wouldn't that make them an even better writer, rather than a worse one?

 

I guess I am just wondering if this is one area where modern research and modern scholarship takes precedence over classical training? Can someone clarify the classical education stance for me?

Edited August 19, 2009 by FairProspects

[Renee in NC]

I am thinking this through philosophically, as it seems to me that one of the major complaints about homeschoolers from educators when they enter community college, university or if they take any classes at public school, is that they are "behind" in writing because they have taken a classical approach and not done 6-trait or process writing.

 

 

Not sure why they would attribute that to classical approach since so few people follow a classical approach. Copywork, narration, and dictation are grammar-level writing instruction methods - if that is all you did I imagine that the student would have a problem writing at a college level.

 

SWB has a whole host of recommendations for middle school and high school that would definitely cover what "6-trait" and "process" writing entails. Maybe read those sections in TWTM to see how it fleshes out in the end? Now, if you mean that students at the lower levels, then yes, I could see how they would be "behind" students in ps, but they will quickly surpass most ps students at the upper levels.

 

My oldest ds is in ps and always has been. He has been taught traditional writing methods and while he can produce voluminous amounts of writing, I wouldn't call him a good writer. His lack of understanding of grammar and lack of exposure to quality writers is apparent.

[Hsmomto4]

I assure you that there is TONS of brainstorming, pre-writing, outlining, writing, editing, re-writing and then even MORE editing. LOL

[FlockOfSillies]

Well, for one thing, your oldest is five. What do five-year-olds brainstorm about? Do you expect 7yo's to outline?

 

It's all about doing things in a life-stage appropriate way. It's too much to expect of most small children (grammar stage) to be able to do things that are better suited to kids in the logic stage or even the rhetoric stage. Copywork, narration, and dictation in the early years keeps kids from having to come up with "creative" writing when they don't have enough in their brains to be creative with. Outlining, editing -- those are for logic-stage-and-older kids. How is a first grader supposed to edit a paragraph when he can barely remember to capitalize the first letter in a sentence and put proper punctuation at the end?

 

The problem with most writing curricula in public schools is that they take later-stage skills, move them down to the early grades, and try to teach those *instead of* the foundational skills. Then they call it "rigorous education." The kids are lost, and by the time they get to SWB's first-year lit class at William & Mary, they can't write their way out of a paper bag.

[Colleen in NS]

Can anyone tell me why classical education does not emphasize process writing? I mean brainstorming, pre-writing, outlining, writing, editing, re-writing, etc. What is the rationale in classical education for choosing to teach writing differently (copywork, narration, dictation)?

 

I am thinking this through philosophically, as it seems to me that one of the major complaints about homeschoolers from educators when they enter community college, university or if they take any classes at public school, is that they are "behind" in writing because they have taken a classical approach and not done 6-trait or process writing.

 

I understand the argument that you must learn from the best and have something to write about, which is why we study the classical authors, however, so much of society is about organizing our thoughts in written form, and I'm not sure that just by teaching kids to organize their writing or brainstorm it will ruin their ability to write. If someone had done all the classical work, and knew how to organize and edit skillfully, wouldn't that make them an even better writer, rather than a worse one?

 

I guess I am just wondering if this is one area where modern research and modern scholarship takes precedence over classical training? Can someone clarify the classical education stance for me?

 

I liked your questions, and I'm agreeing with what everyone else answered.

 

I would imagine that the people who are "behind" have not used classical methods all the way through to being able to write their own thoughts on their own chosen topics. The process doesn't stop with copywork/dictation and narration - it continues to outlining-others-writing/rewriting from that outline, and then on to outlining your own thoughts to write your own persuasive and research papers. There is plenty of brainstorming and editing and rewriting - it's just all arranged differently, and on solid foundations.

[Stacy in NJ]

Process writing doesn't teach how to construct sentences, structure a coherent paragraph, or build an argument using language effectively. Teaching process writing is sort of like sitting a kid in front of a piano, showing them how professional musicans move their fingers across the keys, and them expecting them to play real music. If they're musically inclined, they may be able to pick out a tune playing by ear, but they'll never be master musicians.

 

To me, process writing offers a shell of instruction, the "process", without the meat.

[Stacy in NJ]

The problem with most writing curricula in public schools is that they take later-stage skills, move them down to the early grades, and try to teach those *instead of* the foundational skills. Then they call it "rigorous education." The kids are lost, and by the time they get to SWB's first-year lit class at William & Mary, they can't write their way out of a paper bag.

 

I strongly agree with this. Kids frequently are "taught" the writing process before they even know how to string together structurally coherent sentences, much less paragraphs.

[Ellie]

Many people grow up to be amazing writers who don't do that whole process-writing thing. It would make me a crazy person. It's why I don't care for WriteShop. :-p

[elegantlion]

Process writing doesn't teach how to construct sentences, structure a coherent paragraph, or build an argument using language effectively. Teaching process writing is sort of like sitting a kid in front of a piano, showing them how professional musicans move their fingers across the keys, and them expecting them to play real music. If they're musically inclined, they may be able to pick out a tune playing by ear, but they'll never be master musicians.

 

To me, process writing offers a shell of instruction, the "process", without the meat.

 

:iagree: I just finished reading through parts of my CW Homer core. My head is spinning with all of the structure my ds will learn this year. I KNOW I did not receive this level of training during any level of my public school education.

[NancyNellen]

I completely agree. It is about the process. The grammar-stage recommendations of copywork, narration, and dictation form a fantastic, age-appropriate foundation for the writing that will come in the logic and rhetoric stages.

 

I am very confident that those who are behind are NOT using the classical methods at all (or at least consistently). Let's face it, most people who homeschool do not homeschool classically. As a matter of fact, I do not know anyone IRL who does so.

 

My oldest 2 are in the logic stage now and working through the Classical Writing series. We have followed the WTM recs in writing since the beginning. I am thrilled (really, thrilled) with the writers they are becoming. They have covered all the skills you listed (brainstorming, pre-writing, outlining, writing, editing, re-writing) in one way or another, and they still have a number of years to hone and develop those skills.

[Bee]

I used several LA programs that used process writing for oldest dd when she was in the elementary grades. Nothing worked.Writing was the one thing about hsing that I considered myself a failure at. It wasn't until I listened to the "Writing Without Fear" cd and read WWE that the reasons why it didn't work made it all so clear to me. It wasn't me and it wasn't her; it's just the way most children are at that age and stage of development.

Instead of doing a writing assignment that consists of writing directions for how to play a game, today 3rd grade dd (using WWE 2) was learning how to find the main idea in a narration.Small steps...

[FairProspects]

Just to clarify, I ask because I am genuinely curious, not because I am trying to criticize classical education or anyone's methods. I'm just trying to sort out the reasoning behind certain aspects of classical education, because I am new to homeschooling & elementary education.

 

I can see that it makes sense to wait to teach process writing. I tend to approach things differently sometimes because I was a high school teacher, and I know the skills needed by high school/college but don't have the background in guiding students in the early years. I don't know the building blocks needed to get a student to a certain point, and what the public schools are doing is using is obviously very different from a classical education.

 

I have lots of justification from the public school system for their decisions on process writing via EALRS and loads of other paperwork (whether or not their assertions are what is best for education is separate debate :D) and I am trying to figure out the rationale for teaching writing differently, so that if I do choose to go that route, I can argue its relevance competently.

 

So, from what I am hearing, classical education does use process writing, but waits to teach it until grades 6-8 or so. Is that right? Prior to grades 6-8, the emphasis is on copywork, narration and dictation, the purpose of which is to make sure students learn good grammar, punctutation, vocabulary and composition from the masters, right? So in theory, once the student knows good writing, then they can start to produce their own quality, original writing?

Edited August 19, 2009 by FairProspects

[Jami]

Just to clarify, I ask because I am genuinely curious, not because I am trying to criticize classical education or anyone's methods. I'm just trying to sort out the reasoning behind certain aspects of classical education, because I am new to homeschooling & elementary education.

 

I can see that it makes sense to wait to teach process writing. I tend to approach things differently sometimes because I was a high school teacher, and I know the skills needed by high school/college but don't have the background in guiding students in the early years. I don't know the building blocks needed to get a student to a certain point, and what the public schools are doing is using is obviously very different from a classical education.

 

I have lots of justification from the public school system for their decisions on process writing via EALRS and loads of other paperwork (whether or not their assertions are what is best for education is separate debate :D) and I am trying to figure out the rationale for teaching writing differently, so that if I do choose to go that route, I can argue its relevance competently.

 

So, from what I am hearing, classical education does use process writing, but waits to teach it until grades 6-8 or so. Is that right? Prior to grades 6-8, the emphasis is on copywork, narration and dictation, the purpose of which is to make sure students learn good grammar, punctutation, vocabulary and composition from the masters, right? So in theory, once the student knows good writing, then they can start to produce their own quality, original writing?

 

Are you familiar with the 5 Canons of Rhetoric? (A very classical skill/subject) I think that's basically what you're describing with "process writing". Though based on much of the modern writing I've read, I'd take the writings of a classically-trained rhetorician any day. The five cannons are: Invention, Arrangement, Style, Memory, and Delivery. The fourth and fifth are more about presentation/speaking. But the first three cover the skills you're concerned about. Invention = brainstorming, mapping, outlining--coming up with *what* to write about. Arrangement = the actual structure, first draft and editing with the audience and argument in mind. Style = also editing, re-writing, consideration of audience

 

http://rhetoric.byu.edu/canons/Canons.htm

 

That link might help. But as has been stated, it's hard to expect a student to jump in with the invention, arrangement, and style before his mind has been filled with ideas and language to use. Or to know how to arrange those ideas before he's read and practiced well-written sentences from other writers. Copywork and dictation allow the student to absorb correct language so that it's natural and his mental energy can later be put to use in the creation of arguments and ideas. In the same way that learning math facts in arithmetic frees the mind for the more abstract processes of algebra and beyond in higher mathematics. Narration teaches arrangement and composition, orally, before the work of putting hand to paper (or keyboard!) comes into play.

[8filltheheart]

Just to clarify, I ask because I am genuinely curious, not because I am trying to criticize classical education or anyone's methods. I'm just trying to sort out the reasoning behind certain aspects of classical education, because I am new to homeschooling & elementary education.

 

I can see that it makes sense to wait to teach process writing. I tend to approach things differently sometimes because I was a high school teacher, and I know the skills needed by high school/college but don't have the background in guiding students in the early years. I don't know the building blocks needed to get a student to a certain point, and what the public schools are doing is using is obviously very different from a classical education.

 

I have lots of justification from the public school system for their decisions on process writing via EALRS and loads of other paperwork (whether or not their assertions are what is best for education is separate debate :D) and I am trying to figure out the rationale for teaching writing differently, so that if I do choose to go that route, I can argue its relevance competently.

 

So, from what I am hearing, classical education does use process writing, but waits to teach it until grades 6-8 or so. Is that right? Prior to grades 6-8, the emphasis is on copywork, narration and dictation, the purpose of which is to make sure students learn good grammar, punctutation, vocabulary and composition from the masters, right? So in theory, once the student knows good writing, then they can start to produce their own quality, original writing?

 

Just to clarify a bit......TWTM and CW are classical approaches but by no means encompass "classical education." They are simply those authors' perspectives.

 

I don't happen to agree with either of them. :D

[jenadina]

Classical Writing does teach outlining and editing, and they definitely re-write. I don't know what pre-writing is, and I don't know if they teach brainstorming like I was taught in public school or not. At the Aesop level, my child is doing key word outlines. In Homer, he will do typical hierarchical outlines. I haven't seen the other levels yet, but I'm confident that this method WORKS.

[dragons in the flower bed]

I am thinking this through philosophically, as it seems to me that one of the major complaints about homeschoolers from educators when they enter community college, university or if they take any classes at public school, is that they are "behind" in writing because they have taken a classical approach and not done 6-trait or process writing.

 

How many educators have told you this? I know it's a commonly heard complaint that homeschoolers are behind in writing, but I've never heard it attributed to the substitution of the progym or CM methods. I always assumed that most homeschoolers don't teach writing at all. They teach grammar, spelling, vocabulary and literature or reading comprehension, or they unschool, but either way they're leaving out the writing part of English language arts. Remember, we classical and CM homeschoolers are a small sample. I'm very interested to see what the stats might reveal if we broke the research down and looked at CM hs'ers, progym-using hs'ers, other non-unschoolers, and unschoolers.

 

And, you know, the person who said it before was right -- that draft/rewrite/workshop/rewrite/edit process is not taught as part of the progym but is necessary in order to do the progym.

 

It's kind of like someone trying to teach a kid to bake brownies. The progym teaches you to break a couple of eggs, mix them with flour and powdered chocolate, how to measure the oil, etc. The process method teaches you to fetch a bowl, dirty it, wash it, dirty a pan, wash it, and put them all back in the cabinet.

 

Process should be a side effect, not a lesson. Except maybe for the workshopping part. No one is teaching homeschooled kids how to workshop, as far as I know. But I think that's okay. Other kids don't make great workshopping teams.

[Colleen in NS]

I was a high school teacher, and I know the skills needed by high school/college but don't have the background in guiding students in the early years. I don't know the building blocks needed to get a student to a certain point, and what the public schools are doing is using is obviously very different from a classical education.

 

What did you find when you taught high school - in general, how did the kids do with high school level writing?

 

So, from what I am hearing, classical education does use process writing, but waits to teach it until grades 6-8 or so. Is that right? Prior to grades 6-8, the emphasis is on copywork, narration and dictation, the purpose of which is to make sure students learn good grammar, punctutation, vocabulary and composition from the masters, right? So in theory, once the student knows good writing, then they can start to produce their own quality, original writing?

 

I think you're right on all three. And in the middle grades (once copywork/dictation and narration are solid), they can work on analyzing others' good writing, via outlining and rewriting from the outline. It helps them to see how good writers organize their thoughts, in preparation for high schoolers being able to do the same with their own thoughts. I see it now as a way for kids to practice something over and over again for years, and then when they get to high school, they can write their own stuff, learn new persuasive techniques, edit their papers easily with a solid grammar background, and learn how to tackle a subject without getting bogged down in "I don't know what to write about or how to write about it."

 

Good luck arguing, if you decide to switch!

 

Oh, BTW, have you read SWB's introductory chapters for her WWE book? They might give you some more insight. Check them out at the Peace Hill Press site.

[FairProspects]

Thanks! You all have given me a lot to think about!