the4Rs Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 My daughter is 5 1/2 and I love her dearly. She is a sweet loving sensitive soul who loves the Lord and cares about those around her. She plays well with her brother and friends. She uses good manners and likes to help out around the house. BUT.... we are having a problem. She keeps thinking she is peeing her pants and walks with her legs squashed together. She gets up numerous times at night acting all frustrated with herself and crying thinking she has peed her pants. Her underwear is nearly always dry or has a small spot on it. We have taken her to a doctor to rule out a urinary tract infection which she didn't have. I now think it is all in her head. She has a history of OCD behavior (like she HAS to brush her teeth before she pees at night....tell her to go pee first and she melts down because you have messed with her routine) It is becoming increasingly disruptive behavior and I don't want to overreact if there truly is something going on with her but I also don't want this to continue if it is all in her head. I am not very sensitive or understanding though I truly am trying. My husband just wants to start spanking her for this repetitive behavior about thinking she has peed her pants. It is hard to describe but she just melts down and then her mind is consumed with the thought of peeing her pants. She has been potty trained for a long time so I don't know where this is coming from. Please give me some wisdom for dealing with this. I am tired of every night from 5ish to 9ish being constantly about pee. Ugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snickelfritz Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 (edited) Since it sounds like she's really upset about it. I would think it would create a lot of confusion and a hesitation about going when she really needs to...thus causing her to hold it, get UTI's, etc... I would have another talk with the doctor about it as an OCD issue and how to deal with it, instead of coming at it from the UTI/potty training issue. With the toothbrusing, also, I would want some guidance/input from a professional on how to deal with these issues....since it's likely that more will come up. ETA: Can you work with her more on getting up by herself? We've always tried to stress that they don't get in trouble for peeing their pants, but that they need to take care of it themselves. Wet things go in the tub and they know where the fresh panties are. Has your dd gotten in trouble, in the past, for having wet pants? Edited August 17, 2009 by snickelfritz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Oh my...I can't even imagine a justification for spanking for this. And I can think of all sorts of issues it could cause. I also would speak to the doctor. Maybe a pediatric urologist. Just make sure there isn't a physical issue. I agree with Erica that y'all may need a little extra help in order to help her deal with these sorts of things that have/will come up. You certainly don't want to cause more issues by handling them inappropriately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 My daughter is 5 1/2 and I love her dearly. She is a sweet loving sensitive soul who loves the Lord and cares about those around her. She plays well with her brother and friends. She uses good manners and likes to help out around the house. BUT.... we are having a problem. She keeps thinking she is peeing her pants and walks with her legs squashed together. She gets up numerous times at night acting all frustrated with herself and crying thinking she has peed her pants. Her underwear is nearly always dry or has a small spot on it. We have taken her to a doctor to rule out a urinary tract infection which she didn't have. I now think it is all in her head. She has a history of OCD behavior (like she HAS to brush her teeth before she pees at night....tell her to go pee first and she melts down because you have messed with her routine) It is becoming increasingly disruptive behavior and I don't want to overreact if there truly is something going on with her but I also don't want this to continue if it is all in her head. I am not very sensitive or understanding though I truly am trying. My husband just wants to start spanking her for this repetitive behavior about thinking she has peed her pants. It is hard to describe but she just melts down and then her mind is consumed with the thought of peeing her pants. She has been potty trained for a long time so I don't know where this is coming from. Please give me some wisdom for dealing with this. I am tired of every night from 5ish to 9ish being constantly about pee. Ugh. OCD is anxiety-related behavior resulting from a physiological condition. It sounds like from your post that you know that she is OCD, but given that you are asking for advice here, it sounds like she is not getting treatment for it. Treatment for OCD can consist of either cognitive behavioral therapy and/or medication. Cognitive behavioral therapy gives clients the tools to handle the anxiety without the repetitive behaviors. It's essentially an educational therapy. With a child so young, you and dh will need to take an active role. What you are currently describing---your frustration and dh's resorting to spanking--can be expected to increase the anxiety and therefore the repetitive behaviors. What happens with OCD is that there is a build-up of irrational anxiety that is relieved by the repetitive behavior. Does she have a history of strep throat? There is a side-effect of strep called PANDAS that results in OCD behavior. Please, get her treatment. A knowledgeable doctor needs to check for PANDAS and you need someone who is skilled in pediatric cognitive behavioral therapy to help with the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I agree with the others. You need to get outside help on this one. Please don't spank or punish her, she is in enough turmoil already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the4Rs Posted August 17, 2009 Author Share Posted August 17, 2009 (edited) Just to clarify we haven't spanked her yet. My husband is just frustrated but I tell him I am dealing with it because I don't want to spank her for it and he knows it. He is just lost as to how to handle it. As am I. I don't remember how long ago it was but she went through a phase for several days in a row where she wouldn't stop playing and would wait until she had to go so bad she wouldn't make it to the bathroom and peed all over the bathroom floor. She did get in trouble because she admitted to holding it. She wasn't spanked or anything but she got a very stern talking to. Nothing happened for a long time after that but it may have psychologically made her upset about the thought of peeing, although why it is manifesting itself now- I don't know. I do not want to medicate her at all. The educational therapy sounds like it might help. Not even sure who to consult about this. Do I talk to her doctor and see who they recommend? And ruling out something physical is what my husband and I have been talking about. We are thinking about having her go to the doctor again so we can be referred on to a specialist in this area. I think we were kind of hoping it would just "go away." But it isn't. Do people with OCD that displays so young grow up to have more and more OCD issues creep up that get worse with age? Oh and her dresser is to heavy for her to open on her own so I have to help with that. And she thinks she MUST have me in there the whole time or she really goes over the top. I have tried everything to reassure her to no avail. So unfortunately she is unable to take care of this on her own. Edited August 17, 2009 by the4Rs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Put some panties in a pretty basket by her bed or somewhere in her room where she can reach. Yes, go to your Dr and ask for a recommendation. And yes, unfortunately more behaviours are likely to manifest if she has OCD. Getting more information and having a plan will lessen everyone's anxiety and frustration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ticklbee Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Have you tried putting her in pull ups? This might alleviate her fear of wetting herself. She can pull them down and check if they are wet. If they are, she can change them. If they're not, she can leave them on. My ds who is 9 went through a bed wetting phase. He was fine until he was about 7 or 8 and then he just started having accidents a few nights a week. It was very frustrating. After trying everything else, I finally put him in pull ups and it was like a weight lifted off his shoulders. He didn't have to worry about it anymore. He still had accidents but they became fewer. Now he doesn't need them any more although he still has the occasional accident. My sympathies are with you. The irrational behavior of our kids can be one of the toughest things to deal with at times. Hang in there...this too shall pass! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I do not want to medicate her at all. It looks like it is standard to try other things first. But as someone who resisted medication for ADHD until my son was 12, I have to say that sometimes we do what we need to do rather than what we want to do on these things. Here is a link you might find helpful. http://www.ocfoundation.org/ocd-medication-children.html I hope you find some answers soon and that this is just a phase your daughter is going through and not something more serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Please consider the following: --Take her to a pediatric urologist. There are many more reasons than the garden-variety UTI for problems like this. The urologist can do a more thorough test. You can tell him/her that you have concerns about OCD as well to be taken into account. --Insist on testing for PANDAS. Abbeyej on this board has a son who suffered mightily with it. If I remember correctly her son experienced both wetting problems and OCD behavior, both of which cleared with PANDAS treatment. --If you have concerns about OCD behavior please take her to a specialist. There are more treatment options than just medication. If the poor thing truly has even a mild case of OCD, then she needs help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 The fact that she repeatedly feels like she is wetting her pants makes me think that there definitely could be a medical issue that the doctor missed. A UTI is not the only thing to check for; I would consider taking her to a pediatric urologist for more complete testing. There are a few things that point to a physical issue. First, physical issues that cause bathroom problems are VERY common at this age. Could be a bowel obstruction pressing on the bladder, any number of things. Second, you specifically mention the evenings being worse; why would this be so, if it's all in her head? And third, you say that when she checks, her panties are dry "or have a small wet spot on them." Well, it may be a small spot, but her panties really shouldn't be wet all, right? Something is going on. In the absence of a physical issue, I still see no reason at all to treat this as a disciplinary issue. Your dd is not gaining anything from this behavior, and it sounds like it's making her very unhappy. If she's walking around with her legs pushed together, clearly she's trying to prevent it. If it's OCD at work, she's going to need help working through it, you can't discipline it out of her. While you are figuring out the issue, I second the ideas of putting panties within her reach and trying pullups. She sounds like a wonderful, sweet girl! It would be a shame for this to turn into a bigger deal than it has to be. Deal with this in a practical way, and don't let it interfere with what sounds like a really positive relationship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abbeyej Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Oh, gosh, this is so familiar! Ds had exactly those symptoms when he developed PANDAS (which is sudden-onset OCD). It doesn't sound like you're dealing with PANDAS, because you've mentioned that the OCD behaviors have been ongoing. That's more like the normal onset of OCD in children, where it waxes and wanes over time. But the *symptoms* are pretty much just the same. Your husband needs to know that she truly canNOT help herself. She could, possibly, with a great deal of effort, hide some of her obsessions and anxieties from you two for a short period of time. But it wouldn't mean she was successfully suppressing those feelings and fears. And it would be at great personal cost. I would begin looking for a child psych who has lots of experience with OCD right away. I would also start reading about OCD and anxiety disorders in children. Here's a book to get you started: http://www.amazon.com/What-when-Child-Obsessive-Compulsive-Disorder/dp/0967734711 (There are plenty of others out there, but just start with one... There is also a children's companion-book that you might want to read and consider whether it would be useful to her to read with you.) Here's a website that might also be helpful. But please understand, annoying as all get-out as these behaviors are to you and your husband (and I do empathize completely there!), your dd is frustrated even more than you are. I'm so sorry your dd is facing this. Our situation was different, in that the underlying cause (strep) could be treated. But it was still such a traumatic time in our lives... I'm just so sorry. But there *are* helps out there -- for you and for your dd -- and there are ways to give her tools to reduce the anxiety and the frustration, and ways to help minimize the triggers for her OCD... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Just to clarify we haven't spanked her yet. My husband is just frustrated but I tell him I am dealing with it because I don't want to spank her for it and he knows it. He is just lost as to how to handle it. As am I. I don't remember how long ago it was but she went through a phase for several days in a row where she wouldn't stop playing and would wait until she had to go so bad she wouldn't make it to the bathroom and peed all over the bathroom floor. She did get in trouble because she admitted to holding it. She wasn't spanked or anything but she got a very stern talking to. Nothing happened for a long time after that but it may have psychologically made her upset about the thought of peeing, although why it is manifesting itself now- I don't know. I do not want to medicate her at all. The educational therapy sounds like it might help. Not even sure who to consult about this. Do I talk to her doctor and see who they recommend? And ruling out something physical is what my husband and I have been talking about. We are thinking about having her go to the doctor again so we can be referred on to a specialist in this area. I think we were kind of hoping it would just "go away." But it isn't. Do people with OCD that displays so young grow up to have more and more OCD issues creep up that get worse with age? Oh and her dresser is to heavy for her to open on her own so I have to help with that. And she thinks she MUST have me in there the whole time or she really goes over the top. I have tried everything to reassure her to no avail. So unfortunately she is unable to take care of this on her own. I understood that she hasn't been spanked yet, though my wording didn't convey that. My point is that it is not misbehavior. It is severe anxiety that she is relieving through repetitive behavior. Whether the spanking has happened or not, a child can pick up that her parents perceive that her behavior is "bad"--this will worsen the anxiety. I think it would help for now for you to tell her you have realized that she's not deliberately doing something wrong, and that you're going to find someone who can help her. It's nearly always helpful to children to know other kids and adults struggle in similar ways. You can get most likely get a referral from your pediatrician. Whether it is PANDAS-related or not, the treatment is the same. It will get worse without treatment. Here's a link about the PANDAS connection; http://behavioural-psychology.suite101.com/article.cfm/ocd_linked_to_strep_throat\ Again, what you want is treatment for the strep if she has it (though that won't necessarily help the OCD but you don't want her with an ongoing strep infection either) and a cognitive behavioral psychologist for the treatment of the OCD. The sooner treatment is started for OCD, the better the chances that it doesn't progress. OCD does tend to have a lifelong course, BUT individuals can learn to manage it so that it doesn't interfere with life functioning. So act quickly to get her help. Don't try to self-treat. What you do at home will be very important, but you are better off doing it under the direction of someone who regularly works with kids with OCD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkidsmom Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I have five daughters, a couple have had similar issues...when I read your post my first sense was that this could be an OCD issue. Spanking WILL NOT help and probably exacerbate the problem. Get help from a doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the4Rs Posted August 17, 2009 Author Share Posted August 17, 2009 Ladies, thank you ALL so much for your wise words. I appreciate the links and I am going to go and read up on those things now. I want to assure you, we will not be punishing her for this behavior. It just confirmed some things I was feeling and it is helping me to be more calm in how I deal with this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 One thing I just remembered. My son used to pee in his pants just a little bit. The doctor said this was from being chronically dehydrated. Really concentrated urine apparently makes the bladder contract and squirt out just a bit of urine. When I reread your post I picked up on the small spot in the underwear. Try having her drink a ton of fluids over several days to see if the problem resolves. It worked for my son. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 A really interesting book I recently read had a few chapters about OCD, and had some strategies for how to minimize the number of OCD episodes. It was called The Mind and the Brain: Neuroplasticity and the Power of Mental Force by Jeffrey M. Schwartz and Sharon Begley http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Brain-Neuroplasticity-Power-Mental/dp/0060988479/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1250547159&sr=8-1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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